Deep Cycle Batteries

aussietraveller · Guru

Deep Cycle Batteries

ozjohn · Guru

I'm no expert on anything, but Battery World generally have a selection of brands.
Don't be afaraid to barter as there is a good retail margin in the price of batteries.
Weep and moan about being a poor pensioner to get the best price.
Battery World is also Aussiewide if you need to make a warranty claim in the future.
Not Like Bond Battries that left me stranded a few months back when a brand new battery failed in my Vehicle.
Never again for me. I'll only purchese for someone with a wide dealer network.

Cheers, Ozjohn.

-- Edited by ozjohn on Friday 16th of December 2011 01:55:26 PM

jimricho · Guru

Would recommend going the extra yards financially to purchase an AGM type battery. They are sealed* and maintenance free, can be located inside the van, more tolerant to deep discharges (but not good practice to do this too often), much lower self discharge when not in use, and if not mistreated will outlast a wet battery to an extent that makes the extra cost worthwhile.

I agree with John's comments about buying from a nationwide franchise network.

*ok village pedants, I know these are VRLA (valve release lead acid) but for all intents and purposes they can be regarded as sealed

Duckster · Veteran Member

HZB12-120 Made in Korea by Global Yuasa. Good value for money from well respected battery manufacturer.

http://www.lionbatteries.com.au/products_deep_cycle_batteries.html

jonathan · Guru

.. Thanks for the info folks .. and Duckster, I will certainly look further into the Lion batteries .. like what I've read so far ..

I may have dropped a cell in one of mine .. and persevering now til after Christmas .. not that I'm expecting a visit from santa though !

Jon

jimricho · Guru

jonathan wrote:
.. Thanks for the info folks .. and Duckster, I will certainly look further into the Lion batteries .. like what I've read so far ..
I may have dropped a cell in one of mine .. and persevering now til after Christmas .. not that I'm expecting a visit from santa though !
Jon

G'day Jon,

As a full time "on the roader" with a motorhome, you may find my previous post especially relevant in your case. It's been my experience that AGMs will recharge from the vehicles alternator more quickly than wet types, subject of course to the wiring being such as to minimise voltage drop. (that applies to all types).

I have also found from my own experience that an AGM will recharge from the alternator closer to its maximum capacity than a will wet type.

Jim

PS: I note from the Lion website that they do have a range of AGMs.

-- Edited by jimricho on Saturday 17th of December 2011 08:10:07 AM

jonathan · Guru

Thanks Jim.. yes .. I'm aware of those details. Lion does cater for a good range too ..

Once I've fully checked my system out, then I'll make inroads to doing something .. no stress before Christmas ..

cheers

Jon

-- Edited by jonathan on Saturday 17th of December 2011 08:15:34 AM

aussietraveller · Guru

I have had a look at the Lion website and where its distributors are and it looks good, but just a bit more peace of mind what other brands of batteries have members found to be very good my preference is for an AGM battery. biggrin

David

-- Edited by aussietraveller on Saturday 17th of December 2011 12:02:29 PM

Duckster · Veteran Member

jimricho wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

G'day Jon,

As a full time "on the roader" with a motorhome, you may find my previous post especially relevant in your case. It's been my experience that AGMs will recharge from the vehicles alternator more quickly than wet types, subject of course to the wiring being such as to minimise voltage drop. (that applies to all types).

I have also found from my own experience that an AGM will recharge from the alternator closer to its maximum capacity than a will wet type.

Jim

PS: I note from the Lion website that they do have a range of AGMs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VRLA are the battery construction of choice for sealed deep cycle batteries. Attempting to alternator charge a quality battery is an exercise in stupidity. Alternator is a crude rude device for charging batteries. The other issue it it technically impossible to charge a remote battery to any greater than 70% with a modern vehicle. Modern vehicle only charges the start battery to max 80% and some as low as 65%. As long as the vehicle starts is all that matters. Calcium starter batteries cater well to that function.

Any quality VRLA or AGM battery requires pulse charging to maintain the battery in optimum condition. Best method is a Ctek D250S Dual to charge the auxiliary battery. With the D250S Dual you get a quite reasonable MPPT solar regulator included. None of the other brands of DC/DC charger are fit for purpose and don't have pulse charging.

The HZB12-120 is a VRLA with AGM type construction.

jimricho · Guru

Hello, one of the village pedants has come on board! confuse "Non techies" just talk amongst yourselves for a little while! wink

Quite so Duckster, but I was trying to keep it simple and not go too far into a technical discourse as I felt it was not relevant to the original question which was simply about a recommendation for suitable replacement battery.

Your comments about using the alternator as a charging source for a caravan battery are valid (although a little "over the top" in the way you express them), mainly as a consequence of the long cable run, however for a vehicle aux battery such as in a 4WD or motorhome steps can be taken to reduce this. And yes I agree that the 12v - 12v charger is the ultimate answer if the expense is warranted.

I don't even have the wiring installed in my set-up to enable the van battery to be charged from the alternator, I just rely on a 240v charger (Xantrex 10 amp) when on ground power and I've recently purchased a solar panel to supplement this. I mostly "camp" at powered sites, but occasionally bush camp.

I use an Optima Red Top for my auxiliary battery in my Pajero and load tests that I have carried out indicate that this battery does perform significantly better than a similar capacity deep cycle wet battery which was the point of my comment.

The alternator voltage is 14.4 and the terminal voltage of the battery is 12.7 following a charge from the alternator and steps that have been taken to remove any surface charge (Gawd, one has to go to a lot of detail when one of the village pedants come on board! disbelief ) When I connect my Ctek 7 amp charger to the battery it's not too long before the green light comes on indicating a full charge (some of which has come from the Ctek I know)

And yes I know some of the latest vehicles use a lower alternator voltage that will present problems if trying to charge a deep cycle without using a 12v-12v charger.

The Red Top is sold as a starting battery battery rather than a deep cycle but I have found it has excellent deep cycle capability. If the battery voltage is down in the range of 11.5 volts or so the alternator delivers a current in excess of 50 amps giving a quick boost charge. An hour's idling of the engine will keep my Bushman fridge going for at least an extra day. I know this from having done it, not from some hypothetical calculation.

My Optima is 9 years old and still performing well. Unfortunately Optima do not make a unit with the capacity required by Aussietraveller.

Ok "Non-Techies" it's safe to come back now biggrin

PS: let's continue this discussion elsewhere and allow the thread to get back on topic and for others to come in with their recommendations.

-- Edited by jimricho on Saturday 17th of December 2011 07:47:56 PM

PeterD · Guru

jimricho wrote:
*ok village pedants, I know these are VRLA (valve release lead acid) but for all intents and purposes they can be regarded as sealed

I see you mention (in another answer) the fact that pedants keep appearing. They only come by when information is blatantly wrong.

VLRA stands for Valve Regulated Lead Acid. The valve in no way seals the battery, it just takes a little pressure to make the valve release. About the only thing it stops is it stops you from being able to replenish any liquid that may be boiled out of a battery (not that you would be able to replenish liquid in an AGM battery anyway.)

If you overcharge a VRLA battery it is just as likely to spew out nasty gasses. The valve will not prevent that from happening. Its only marketing types that say it is completely safe to install a VRLA battery under the seat or bed. Engineering types know better.

AGM batteries are also known as starved electrolyte batteries as there is very little acid in them. All the electrolyte is absorbed into the glass mat separators, hence the name Absorbed Glass Mat.

Under normal operating conditions the small amount of electrolyte in the battery and the valves prevent the release of significant quantities of gasses. However if problems occur and you get runaway in your system then VRLA batteries.

If you don't believe me, I suggest you don't ask at a battery sales place, look for an engineer. Here is what one engineer has to say in in this link:

The batteries are thus charged deeply and speedily by the 14.2-14.4 volts from a standard vehicle charging system. The process will be speeded by upgrading the alternator (a change that is only partially effective with a standard system unless upgrading also to a smart regulator). AGM (and gel cell) batteries may be orientated anyway except upside down, but must be housed in a well-ventilated compartment (whilst the batteries are sealed, pressure release valves open if internal pressure becomes dangerously high). Users of gel cell batteries are advised that earlier industry advice, to the effect that gel cell batteries do not need a ventilated compartment, has been rescinded. All such manufacturers now insist that adequate ventilation is imperative.

-- Edited by PeterD on Sunday 18th of December 2011 12:54:47 AM

jimricho · Guru

For Crissakes Peter and Duckster this thread is a simple request for a recommendation for a replacement battery. I made a suggestion favouring an AGM and described it as "sealed" in the context of that request using the simple convention of "sealed" versus an open wet battery.

My earlier post was simply a recommendation for an AGM type battery as being the better choice over a wet type. I included a couple of basic reasons why I believe that is is so.

I only mentioned charging from an alternator as being one of these advanages without any intention of going into the details of the pros and cons of various methods of charging as I felt that to be outside the scope of the original question. The method of charging may not even be relevant here.

If anyone believes that an AGM is not an appropriate choice say so and why but please do so in a manner that is comprehensible to a person without a technical background.

I recognised in my earlier post that technically they are not sealed in the strictest sense but they are in the sense that you can't top them up with water or additives or anything else and that they are suitable for installing inside a van or vehicle (unlike a wet battery) provided that space they're installed in doesn't prevent the escape of gas in the event of pressure build-up. That comment is based on manufacturer's information. In fact many of these are approved for air freight, unlike wet batteries.

In order to keep my responses readable for non technical people I recognise that at times they may contain some "short cuts" to achieve this and that this may incur some technical omissions that aren't relevant to the particular thread.

In this context I stand by my view that AGMs are better suited for alternator charging than wet types. A view that's backed up by first hand real world practical experience. I have never claimed that basic alternators are the perfect device to charge a deep cycle battery, AGM or otherwise. I would think that a caravan installation that was solely dependant on the tug's alternator for charging would be a rare beast.

Nor have I ever claimed that any battery, AGM, wet, or gel, can be safely installed in an inadequately ventillated environment.

NOW LET'S STOP THIS BLOODY NITPICKING THREAD HIJACKING AND GIVE OTHERS A GO!

-- Edited by jimricho on Sunday 18th of December 2011 10:43:58 AM

PeterD · Guru

Richo - you made a completely inaccurate statement. I just corrected it. If you don't like being corrected then correct info in the first place.

Duckster · Veteran Member

PeterD wrote:
Richo - you made a completely inaccurate statement. I just corrected it. If you don't like being corrected then correct info in the first place.

unfriendly content removed by webmaster

-- Edited by Webmaster on Monday 19th of December 2011 07:19:45 AM

jimricho · Guru

It would be sad to see this thread closed because some have chosen to take the opportunity to launch unwarranted personal attacks that are not in the spirit of the forum, as I believe it still has some distance to run provided it gets back on topic.

-- Edited by jimricho on Sunday 18th of December 2011 09:59:22 PM

Webmaster · Guru

Hi all,
Let’s try to keep this string positive. Although it is important that info provided is accurate, it is also important to keep the atmosphere constructive and helpful. I would urge all members who are looking to invest in new batteries, wiring or other technical issues to enlist the assistance of a qualified expert who can discuss your specific needs and setup in person. The information provided on this, and any of the other thread in our ‘Techies Corner’ subforum, should be taken as a general guide and, whilst some of our members are highly qualified technicians, it is difficult to provide the kind of detailed information required to install or modify a system on the forum. Thanks everyone, for your understanding.

oldtrack123 · Guru

Hi

Just a few points for the nontechs on AGM batteries

[1] They do come in Two distinct classes

[a] Starter batteries

Deep cycle batteries

If your primary use is as a deep cyle the obviously a deep cycle will give you more life for your $

[c] some makers also make a hybrid [semi deep cycle/ starter]

[2]AGM batteries have no free fluid ,that is why they are ok for transport in planes THEY cannot spill fluid etc so are ok to mount in any position

[3] Valve regulated AGMs can & do emit gas ,& should only be used in a CORRECTLY vented compartment

AS a minimum ,this means top & bottom ventilation

[4]AGMs :-

[a] Will charge faster than wet lead acids have lower self discharge will hold charge longer in storage [c] Are less tolerant to heat

[d] can be seriously & permanently damaged by overcharging

[e] can be discharged deeper

ALWAYS refer to the makers specs for correct charging requirements

Peter

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 19th of December 2011 12:46:59 PM

aussietraveller · Guru

Hi all I certainly didn't think my question would evoke such heated debate, the main reason that I asked the question was following my experience with auto electricians they will always tell you that the best battery is the one they are selling and I am confident they believe that or they wouldn't be selling them. I was asking the question to obtain the end user opinion on type of battery and brands although I had pretty well decided on a AGM battery

I have certainly learnt a lot about deep cycle batteries which has been very useful and I thank you all for your valuable advice, The issue is now getting a quality battery for a respectable price.

jimricho · Guru

I recently purchased a "Discover" brand AGM (No, I hadn't heard of them either!). I needed it urgently and was away at the time so didn't have time to shop around. I think the price was a bit over $300 which is not too bad for 100ah. I have not owned it long enough to be able to give it a "ringing" endorsement or otherwise. I bought it from an independent dealer in Mackay but I think Allco Batteries are the distributors.

I think there a few "Fullriver" owners on the forum. It would be interesting to hear how they are faring.

-- Edited by jimricho on Monday 19th of December 2011 07:00:17 PM

BobnBev · Senior Member

Hi Guys, There are Batterys and there are Batterys. I had a set of Fullrivers 2, 120 amph.. Worked them hard as we have a 2 door waeco upright fridge.500 watts of sola, They were ok but I didnt get a real good run from them. 2nhalf years- 3 years.

I now have a 200amph LiFepo4 battery 36 kgs and to say its like a v8 would be right.. No I wont go into details about it as there are to many naysayers. But will say its the best battery I have ever used.Very stable and with twice the grunt...,we now run 2 fridges easy..

Bob

jimricho · Guru

As that's a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery I'm right out of my league here, but I guess you'd need to ensure that your charging set-up is compatible with this type of battery.

oldtrack123 · Guru

jimricho wrote:
, but I guess you'd need to ensure that your charging set-up is compatible with this type of battery.

HI Jim

AND that is where ALL the debate lies

There is no doubt about their capabilities

High power to weight capacity

Very fast charging if you have the power available

Very high discharge rates

very low self discharge

High charge efficiency

With their published life cycles it should be a one off purchase

But some users believe , only fairly basic charging systems are required

Only time will tell if they are correct & get the long life expected & needed to recover the costs

I will not go into the negative but they are around determining remaining state of charge, applying the correct charging so as not to overcharge any individual cell

They consist of multiple individual cells which require to be equalised to avoid over charging any individual cell

Also if a cell fails ,that needs to be quickly detected or ALL others in the string may be permanently damaged[series string] & even more problems with a series /parallel string if you require more than 90amphrs

NONE Have been in use in the RV area for long enough for any valued comment to be made using such basic charging systems.

Perhaps in 5years time we may know how those systems maintain the battery life

I would think that any poster who curently has them would have to say IT HAS been for LESS than 12months. wink

Peter

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 20th of December 2011 09:21:08 PM

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 20th of December 2011 09:37:47 PM

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 20th of December 2011 09:43:15 PM

BobnBev · Senior Member

Hi Peter, Have seen your coments on other forums, and some of what you say is not quite right, They have been useing them since 08- and before. in boats, cars, buses, lawnmowers, satellites, 7 years on mars driving a lander there, and stand alone power for outback stations. There comes a time when you have to say it, people are useing them with out any problems , they do have to be watched "WHEN YOU USE THEM IN BIG NUMBERS' in cars,buses,ect. but one 4 cell batt in a caravan or MH. a $20 dollar cell logger will do all you want. and a low voltage cut out from Auto Barn for $30 will be all thats needed there . And a small under standing of what you have. Thats it........

oldtrack123 · Guru

Hi Bob

It seems some do not understand, here or elsewhere

I have not knocked the claimed perfomance/ advantages of these batteries in any post on ANY forum .

I have, on many occassions said I can see their technical advantages

What I have questioned & continue to question ,as in my post above is the idea that basic charging methods will lead to the high life expectancy that these batteries are no doubt quite capable of ,IF TREATED CORRECTLY

You are not suggesting that such simple systems as you suggest are used in any situation requiring high reliabilty, surely.

Also as you seem to agree the problems can escalate when one requires more than 90amphrs capacity[requiring series parallel combinations]

Your system is hardly set & forget

It requires fairly constant monitoring & manual corrections if required

Short term evidence may indicate no damge but will such a system /has such a system obtained the claimed possible life cycles ??

Evidence please AND that does not mean 6months, it means MANY years

IN practical terms about 10 PLUS years, for the average user

Peter

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 21st of December 2011 04:03:34 PM

sheeds · Veteran Member

Non-tehno here. My battery charging knowledge etc. wouldn't fill a postage stamp. So, please advise - any type of battery needs adequate cross-flow ventilation,yes/no? Also, no battery manufacturer has put it in writing anywhere to my knowledge that "constant trickle charging is OK and does NOT overcharge or damage a battery" - yes/no? I had an unpleasant argument at the Bendigo,Victoria RV show a few months back when I put it to a Motorhome salesman: "Surely, isn't it unsafe to have a transformer/charger positioned right beside the house battery and also have a 240V pp very close as well?" His reply is not worth mentioning. I thought the leads from a charger to a battery must be a minimum 1 metre(buy any charger and the leads are about that length)? And this Motorhome battery compartment is in a sub-floor area with no purpose-built ventilation. The sales guy said any gases(it was a "sealed"calcium battery) would vent off under pressure and dissipate through the sub-floor area! Obviously, our member engineers must submit the facts to Canberra's Department of Infrastructure and Transport(DIT) and have all this 12V battery/charger/transformers/inverter arrangements regulated via specific Standards for all Motorhome manufacturers to abide by for consumer safety.

DeBe · Guru

The only bit i can answer is from practical experience, is tricle charging continously wont hurt a battery. Provided the voltage for the particular battery u are using isnt exceeded. I use N70ZZ wet batterys & get 6 to 10 years out of them tricle charging by Solar at 13.8V.

oldtrack123 · Guru

sheeds wrote:
, please advise -
[1]any type of battery needs adequate cross-flow ventilation,yes/no?
[2]Also, no battery manufacturer has put it in writing anywhere to my knowledge that "constant trickle charging is OK and does NOT overcharge or damage a battery" - yes/no?
[3]I had an unpleasant argument at the Bendigo,Victoria RV show a few months back when I put it to a Motorhome salesman: "Surely, isn't it unsafe to have a transformer/charger positioned right beside the house battery and also have a 240V pp very close as well?" His reply is not worth mentioning. I thought the leads from a charger to a battery must be a minimum 1 metre(buy any charger and the leads are about that length)? And this Motorhome battery compartment is in a sub-floor area with no purpose-built ventilation. The sales guy said any gases(it was a "sealed"calcium battery) would vent off under pressure and dissipate through the sub-floor area!
[4]Obviously, our member engineers must submit the facts to Canberra's Department of Infrastructure and Transport(DIT) and have all this 12V battery/charger/transformers/inverter arrangements regulated via specific Standards for all Motorhome manufacturers to abide by for consumer safety.

Hi Sheeds

[1]All batteries should be in a well ventilated comparment with top & bottom air flow

[2]Depends on battery type & what voltage is being referred to as trickle charging.

Most batteries can withstand the correct trickle charge with no problems But one needs to ensure it is the correct charge regime for that brand of battery

Always follow makers recommendations

[3]NEVER believe what a salesman tells you

It is a bad practise to have charger or power point in the same compartment as the battery

Any fumes emitted are highly corrossive & may damage the charger

Keeping the leads short give the charger a more accurate indication of the battery state of charge[SOC], minimises voltage drop in the leads Too long , & both charge rate & final state of charge may be affected

They can be extended by encreasing the cables size

Twice the length requires twice the cross sectional area of COPPERl

[4] Many do not even abide by the existing ones .

Then somethings are just good or bad practise & a such are not regulated

Peter

PeterD · Guru

sheeds wrote:
Also, no battery manufacturer has put it in writing anywhere to my knowledge that "constant trickle charging is OK and does NOT overcharge or damage a battery" - yes/no?

This depends upon what you call trickle charging. There are simple cheap non regulated devices called trickle chargers. These were very useful on the flooded batteries. If you left them on too long they boiled some of the water out of the battery. This is OK with flooded batteries as you can top them up with deionised water. However if you use those cheapie chargers on a VRLA battery you will boil out some electrolyte and you can not replace it. This will reduce the capacity of the battery and you may then overwork the remaining capacity. If you leave the charger on too long you will wreck it completely.

On the other hand if you have a quality multi stage charger you should be able to set the maintenance charge to the battery makers specification. This is often referred to as trickle charging. The battery manufacturer will specify a maintenance charge voltage such that charging continuously not effect the battery.