How many more vanners have to die or be maimed before the authorities act?
Almost everyday on various Forums or in newspapers I read of another tragic caravan accident. I feel that it maybe time (Maybe overdue) to introduce driver education/profiency testing together with licence endorcement together with RV manufacturer education and licensing.
Maybe something along the lines of classroom instructions(Say 3 - 4 hours) on van loading and weight distribution, Tow and ball weights etc, WDH's and anti sway devices, Mirrors and cameras, suitability or otherwise of certain vehicles (Rear axle overhand), tyre pressures for vehicle and van. etc. etc..... followed by a written test on towing rules and items covered in the class room. Then a 'simple' practical test, including at least a multi point turn, straight line reversing, reverse turning. i.e. backing into a site.
I'll conceded that there are still vans being built that are poorly designed and an accident waiting to happen, but most new vans today are pretty good if packed correctly (without all the crap being added to the rear bumper by the owner) and used with appropriate towing devices. The biggest problem I see today is not the builders fault, but that of the customers demanding bigger, heavier vans and/or adding heaps of extras after taking delivery. If a manufacturer refuses to build anything over 18', then the customer will go to someone who will and the first manufacture will soon be out of business because he considered customer safety before profit.
Collyn Rivers has explained countless times on various forums and in published articles that loads placed on the vans extremities, especially the rear, is the biggest cause of instability. Length also plays a huge part in instability, and length coupled with speed further increases the risk of an accident.
A quick walk around any caravan park will reveal all kinds of dangerous and in some cases criminal situations. I'm in a park now in Newcastle and quite frankly what I can see from my van window is bloody scary.
Remember, you're sharing the same roads with people. Most are completely ignorant of the rules and regulations (Lack of education) whilst others are bloody idiots who couldn't care less what anyone says or for laws. They know best. they've towed for years and never had an accident. Well everyday brings them closer to one. And you know what?. It won't be their fault. They'll blame it on someone else like the van manufacturer, The tow bar, tyre retailer etc.
I'm convinced that education and endorsement is the only choice Governments will have to prevent us killing ourselves.
Cheers, ozjohn.
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Retired Engineer, Ex Park Owner & Caravan Consultant. Holden 2.8 Colorado - Roma Elegance 17'6" Pop Top. Location: Mornington Peninsula Vic.
I dont know wether I agree with you John on all things. There is indeed a problem with vans not set up right and gross over loading, but do we need to make more compliance laws and permits/licences than we already have. We need to police the exsisting laws and make people more liable for their failures. Like if a dealer sells a van that is clearly not rated right on the complicant plate for the vehicle that tows it out of the yard make them pay. The same goes for people that clearly break the tow limits of there vehicle. Like I seen a 200 series cruiser with about a 20 foot van on the back with the headlights pointing at the sun and bum on the ground (no self leving supension, I looked), seen this at the head of the bight, so clearly they had towed a long way. The van and tug would have been ok had it been set up correctly. cheers blaze
Blaze, I agree with what you say, but these things are in the main caused by lack of education and driver training.
99% of vanners have no idea what the ATM even means let alone where to find the figure. A bigger proportion would however know what the Tare was, but wouldn't know if it was correct. Hell, some wouldn't even know what it was.
They no nothing of Personal load allowances, ball weights, tyre pressures as they mostly use what's on the tyre placard which is for an unladen van. The list of what they don't know goes on and on.
We on the forums generally know a lot more than non forum members, but even we have more we can fit into our noggins. As for backing etc. don't tell me you haven't seen them at parks where they need someone else to put their van on site.
If they can't back it onto a site then they shouldn't be towing. And for that statement, I make no apology.
Hopefully we'll get to die in a bed of an old age related problem and not be killed prematurely by a van. Either our own or another.
Cheers, ozjohn.
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Retired Engineer, Ex Park Owner & Caravan Consultant. Holden 2.8 Colorado - Roma Elegance 17'6" Pop Top. Location: Mornington Peninsula Vic.
Only the other day I had to repark a van for an eldly couple because they were not confident to do so. Not to mention the fact that their awning would have been half over my site, we arrived just in time to move it before they had unhooked.
An other item to the education list is the uncliping of the roll out awning legs to the free standing position, then leaving it in this position WITHOUT any guy popes &/or ground pegs. Only needs one puff of wind & the awning is over the roof with legs swinging every where, then comes the damage.
I have already spoke to a couple of lots about doing this , as they were near us & I was looking at our own saftey. I just got a blank look as they asked why would want to peg it down, I saved my breath & walked away.
There is just no hope for some.
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Be your self; there's no body better qualified ! "I came into this world with nothing , I still have most of it"
This is a really useful and helpful discussion - a silly question as a new person, is there a book you can recommend which summarises the main safety points you have been raising. Where would I find out about tow balls other than a dealer? I went around a few van parks this week as i was in the city and got all sorts of misinformed advice about tow weights etc. I have already made up my mind not to go over half the recommended tow weight but I had dealers telling me I would have no problem towing a 2500 van which is the max weight my car can tow with no mention of load. I am soaking up the tips so thanks.
I peg my legs down and rope them as well. I believe most van retailers will allow the customer to buy the biggest, shiniest caravan regardless of what they intend to tow it with. Some configurations are just tragedy waiting to happen, yet the salesman is happy to take their money and wave them off as they drive out of the yard. I really believe the dealers must take some responsibility in advising their customers of the suitability of their vehicle to the van. The customer must also take all responsibility for what they are towing, what they are towing it with and how it's loaded. This is more significant in single axle vans. There is plenty of information available. No one has to be able to do anything special, as long as they can hitch up, they can go. I'm astounded 5th wheeler operators are also free to hitch up and go. Yet they are operating a vehicle similar to a semi trailer, with considerable weight as well as the length and height. Of course, once we get these things rolling, we have to be able to slow them down and stop them. I've shared the highway with some van towers who seem to be totally oblivious to other motorists, even road trains, and carry on their merry way, wandering all over the road, speeding or going too bloody slow, and not using the off lane so others can overtake. They seem to have the attitude that they've paid their rates, taxes and rego which gives them the God-given right to do as they like. They even try to take on oversize loads. Guess who wins? Go on, guess? Driving is a big responsibility. Towing makes it an even bigger responsibility. Selling caravans should also be a responsibility. We had a fatal multi-vehicle crash north of Port Wakefield today. I'm not sure if it involved an oversized load, but 2 cars had a head on after getting clipped by the truck or clipping the truck, forcing the pilot vehicle to take evasive action to the scrub. In all the miles I drive my worst fear is being the first to the scene. My first aid is up to date, but there's more to it than that. Stay safe everyone.
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20ft Roma caravan - Mercedes Benz Sprinter - SA-based at the moment. Transport has no borders.
Management makes the decisions, but is not affected by the decisions it makes.
Unfortunately, it will never happen in our life time.
Reason number one:- There's no votes in it! In fact the opposite applies, the self appointed freedom for everything crowd would have a field day.
Reason number two:- It would overload the system and there is no current standards to be adhered too. As a Driving Instructor I deal with this area of government every day.
The powers that be will find it easier to blame the caravan manufacturers and make them improve their standards first. This is already happening!
Then of course, before the Commonwealth Governement can come up with Australian Standards they will blame State Governments for conditions of roads etc.
Maybe, just maybe, the first step would be to revaluate the licence required to tow a fifth wheeler? Some of them are equal to semi.
To think that anyone can go out and buy a small ute and an oversize mobile apartment block to tow around without any increase in skill levels is ludicrous.
Next on my list would be for mandatory licences for a period of five years and a retest for renewal, up util the age of 85 years. After 85 years of age, a road test every year.
Of course, if we really wanted to get serious, we would stop parents and friends passing on their bad habits to learner drivers!
.. It would be very difficult to legislate against stupidity, ignorance, nievity, incompetence and many of the other human traits that we meet and endure ..
I've yet to meet anyone that has mastered all the above in all fields ..
You are so right Jonathan. Young people are educated to get their licence, after that they're on their own to do what they like with the vehicle they operate, and try not to get caught. The sad thing is they often take someone else out and live to tell the tale. The laws are there as a guide. It's what we do with them that matters at the end of the day. When a couple pulls into a van park, I watch them get out after the parking spectacular. She stumbles out of the passenger seat. He rolls out on to severely bowed legs, and limps to unhitch the rig. I'm amazed he can drive the Landcruiser let alone tow and reverse the van. It's automatic of course. The annual driving test should extend to towing if necessary.
No one can protect anyone from themselves if they don't think the laws apply to them.
-- Edited by Cruising Granny on Friday 9th of September 2011 10:15:55 PM
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20ft Roma caravan - Mercedes Benz Sprinter - SA-based at the moment. Transport has no borders.
Management makes the decisions, but is not affected by the decisions it makes.
First, shouldn't ALL state governments bring in mandatory inspections for car & caravans once a year? I live in NSW & although I hate the hassle & expense of the inspections every year at least I know I have a safe, roadworthy car & caravan. I've seen plenty of run down rusted hulks on the road & I've noticed they never have NSW number plates on them, I'm sure these vehicles are as much a danger on the road as inexperienced drivers.
Cheers
Jon
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Home is where we hang our hats - Home now in Yamba NSW
I just had my car road-worthied in SA to qualify for pilot work in WA. It passed with flying colours. That's because I keep it well maintained. I think annual checks are expensively excessive, and I don't think it's necessary to inspect every year, but maybe alternate years for vehicles older than 5 years. If the vehicle looks like a rust bucket hazard then the Police should have the power to order a roadworthy check. That's why they hand out "canaries", or yellow slips and take the vehicle off the road until it passes or is scrapped. So who checks the caravans and trailers?
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20ft Roma caravan - Mercedes Benz Sprinter - SA-based at the moment. Transport has no borders.
Management makes the decisions, but is not affected by the decisions it makes.
.. It would be very difficult to legislate against stupidity, ignorance, nievity, incompetence and many of the other human traits that we meet and endure ..
I've yet to meet anyone that has mastered all the above in all fields ..
Jon
jonathon, you have not met me yet, oh bugga, I'm not human I'm a wombat
Some excellent comments to Ozjohn's quality post. The more people write and read good information the safer and more informed everyone will be.
I joined this site and forum for just this reason. Being new to this game you can always learn something, especially if you take the attitude that you don't know everything.
Stupidity is not age related or is being in bad health, and some people just do not want to know new information, if it means they may have to change their mind or habits.
I do think being over regulated has made people believe they do not have to take responsibility, someone else will make sure they are ok.
I learnt a lot from sailing. If you over pack the boat it sinks...if you try to sail into the wind you don't get very far, and if you take your eyes off the water or your mind off your task you generally don't make the trip, also, you learn a lot if you take your time to look around and listen.
Hey BTW, I would like to do a driver training in our almost delivered new 4x4 Merc sprinter, does anyone know of a good driving instructor on the Gold Coast for that type of Vehicle ? I am about to do some research, but, thought it would be worth asking here as well.
I agree with ozjohn too. Whilst I think at times the government can over legislate, I don't think it applies to this particular example.
When the mrs and I decide to upgrade and start caravaning, I will be taking a course to learn how to drive and park. And to also learn about weights and other things. John has enlightened me as he mentioned things that I didn't even know I needed to know.
Don't panic too much about the sprinter. My transit sat in the front yard for two weeks before I was even game to start it up. But, It took me about five minutes down the road to get the hang of it, and when I came back fifteen minutes later I could even back it onto the site. I just took it out a few times like that and I was fine. All I could think was how eezy peezy. Nothing to it. After 1500 kms quite happy and can park it anywhere confidently.
That's how many of us start ou ChiChi. I learnt to drive 4X4 on the sand dunes of SA's west coast, and the muddy paddocks of the Kimberley cattle stations I worked on. I learnt to tow a large trailer the same way. We don't all have that opportunity, so controlled training is the best option. With a large vehicle like the Transit, it's just a matter of steady, steady until you're comfortable controlling the beast. I had a bus licence years ago for up to 32 passengers, so that gave me large vehicle experience. Practice, practice, practice, and if you see someone doing the wrong thing, make sure you don't do it. And wherever you are in your vehicle, please, please, please use your rear vision mirror and side mirrors.
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20ft Roma caravan - Mercedes Benz Sprinter - SA-based at the moment. Transport has no borders.
Management makes the decisions, but is not affected by the decisions it makes.
I too agree with Ozjohn's call for education, and with others' calls for 5th wheeler training - even though we drive one ourselves. However, it's Australian-built, specifically for the Mazda tow motor, and is not nearly as heavy as most of the imported or even other Australian ones.
What's more, we did take ourselves for training with the rig, which was also a useful exercise which we would recommend to everyone. We take turns at driving, and even at backing, and while neither of us may be sufficiently expert at backing to get there in one go every time (yes, we sometimes manage it!), we're both pretty comfortable with our home.
I suspect that our 5th wheeler is actually somewhat lighter than many caravans now on the road, expecially now that so many have slide-outs (we opted out of that - too heavy, and someting else to go wrong!), but as CG says it is still essentially a semi-trailer configuration. I was amazed when I asked at Motor Reg about my licence requirement (John's was already endorsed) that they were interested only in the tow motor!
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Free-ranging, in a Southern Cross 5th wheeler, in between property-minding (to save money!).
I agree with some...but I must say that there are hundreds of collisions out there NOT involving caravans and all those people were "apparently" educated in the way to drive whatever they were driving.
However, I have just been to Port Macquarie for a couple of weeks (that is why I haven't been on here) and the number of vans with incorrect tow vehicles that came into the park was WAY TOO MANY.
Like the commodores towing off Tandem road vans ???? Or my favourite of all time...the Pajero towing a TRI AXLE (yes tri axle) caravan which must have been at least 3.5ton...plus whatever they put in the big bloody thing....HUGE. I missed taking a photo as it was raining when I got there and the van left early in the morning.
I agree with some...but I must say that there are hundreds of collisions out there NOT involving caravans and all those people were "apparently" educated in the way to drive whatever they were driving.
However, I have just been to Port Macquarie for a couple of weeks (that is why I haven't been on here) and the number of vans with incorrect tow vehicles that came into the park was WAY TOO MANY.
Like the commodores towing off Tandem road vans ???? Or my favourite of all time...the Pajero towing a TRI AXLE (yes tri axle) caravan which must have been at least 3.5ton...plus whatever they put in the big bloody thing....HUGE. I missed taking a photo as it was raining when I got there and the van left early in the morning.
Dunco, It sounds like the one that was in the park with us last week on the Central Coast (Toowoon Bay).
Looking from my van now I can see 5 vans with large alum tool boxes on the rear bumper. Another two have two jerry can and a box. Another has A fold up boat trailer and jerry vans with the outboard motor on the A-frame and Two have bike racks. And to top it all off, and not to be outdone by the others, One has a Harley Davidson Sports on the back. No bull, I kid you not.
Then there was the early model 15' Windsor that pulled out yesterday morning.It was the easiest quickest hook up I've ever seen. He just picked up the A-frame by hand while his missus backed up the car and he then just placed it on the tow ball. All made possible by the weight of a full width construction ply tool box on the rear bumper.
Then there was the bozo we saw in Sydney 10 days ago with a 22' Galaxy where he had cut the tops of the rear bumper supports so he could fit a wider tool box on. Mark Burns a Galaxy would have a heart attack if he saw it.
In the past few weeks I reckon at least 65% of vans we've seen in parks and camps haven't had the wheels balanced and at least 40% has visible under inflated tyres.A strange observation is that the vast percentage of those with under infalted tyres were Jayco's. I have no idea why.
Maybe it's about time we headed for home where we can camp safely in our backyard, but with my luck I'd get a gas leak, try to illegally fix it and blow myself up and burn down half the town.
Cheers, Ozjohn.
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Retired Engineer, Ex Park Owner & Caravan Consultant. Holden 2.8 Colorado - Roma Elegance 17'6" Pop Top. Location: Mornington Peninsula Vic.
