some questions on powering stuff...

milo · Senior Member

some questions on powering stuff...

goinsoon · Guru

Just in case you missed my advice at the other forum, here it is again, hope it helps

Thats easy Milo what you do is this:

Connect the pentavalent element in parallel with the flangellating bipolar junction transistor but making sure that the bulk resistance is less than the capaitance of the left handed center tapped rectifier.

See it's easy, listen to me mate and all your problems will be solved

-- Edited by goinsoon on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 09:07:36 AM

milo · Senior Member

goinsoon wrote:

Just in case you missed my advice at the other forum, here it is again, hope it helps

Thats easy Milo what you do is this:

Connect the pentavalent element in parallel with the flangellating bipolar junction transistor but making sure that the bulk resistance is less than the capaitance of the left handed center tapped rectifier.

See it's easy, listen to me mate and all your problems will be solved

-- Edited by goinsoon on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 09:07:36 AM

Rolly · Guru

Goinsoon, that was cruel biggrin

Milo, getting back to the question, - it's a long answer, I'm afraid and I will not try to cover it here.
The best suggestion I can make is to buy the relevant books by Collyn Rivers on the topic:

http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/

Well worth their price and regularly up-dated.

Disclaimer: I am in no way associated with the author nor the publisher and have no pecuniary interest in posting this link.

Rolly · Guru

Milo, please do not be tempted to use any of the "adapters" that people make for themselves in order to run a 10amp outlet to the 15amp inlet on the caravan/camper/trailer/whatever.
Apart from being illegal, there are hidden dangers that are not apparant. There have been house fires and electrocutions as a result of this practice.

jimricho · Guru

Rolly wrote:

Milo, please do not be tempted to use any of the "adapters" that people make for themselves in order to run a 10amp outlet to the 15amp inlet on the caravan/camper/trailer/whatever.
Apart from being illegal, there are hidden dangers that are not apparant. There have been house fires and electrocutions as a result of this practice.

Absolutely correct Rolly.....

However there is a "work-around" that will enable you to legally and safely connect a 15amp caravan lead to a standard 10amp power point.......

This is done by plugging an "Amp-Fibian" adaptor into the standard power point (10amp GPO for the techies) and then plugging the (15amp) caravan lead into the Amp-Fibian.

Details of this device can be obtained at http://www.amp-fibian.com/ and http://www.amp-fibian.com/products.html

The device contains a circuit breaker that will trip if the current exceeds 10 amps. This is all that happens and no other damage occurs. It also contains a "safety switch" (RCD or ELCB for the techies).

Note that this was the topic of much discussion some time last year with some posts going right off deep end..... let's not have a repeat of that episode so please before commenting on the legality or safety of this device, go to the website above first.

william the third · Veteran Member

G'day Milo, Buy an Amp-fibian, they are legal and safe. Available at Camec.

william the third · Veteran Member

G'day Jim, you beat me to it!!

jimricho · Guru

Apart from their obvious increased current capacity (15 amps instead of 10 amps) "caravan" leads are approved for and are suitable for outdoor use. While some 10 amp extension cords are suitable for outdoor use many others aren't due to their light construction.

Most of the devices you mention do no not draw much power so a 10 amp limitation should not present a problem. Nor should lights, battery chargers, 3way fridge etc

Heaters, toasters, jugs, microwaves draw significant current but should not present a problem if not used simultaneously. As I alluded to in my previous post the worst that will happen if you do is the breaker will trip. All you need to do is switch off the offending appliance and reset the breaker.

Regarding 12 volt power for free camping, you will need a dual battery system. If you decide you need solar then you will still need the second battery in the dual battery system as solar works by recharging a battery when the sun is shining (or light cloud). Likewise generators, as there are often times when using a generator is not allowed or at least inappropriate.

There have been numerous posts on this forum on solar and generators so there's no point in rehashing them here.

-- Edited by jimricho on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 05:28:39 PM

jimricho · Guru

G'day William of Orange, we must have been doing our posts simultaneously!

Jim

milo · Senior Member

thanks guys, i like the idea of solar with duel batteries.
i gather solar will run your power during the day and batteries for night?
if thats the cas how many hrs would i get, ie running my laptop, ps3 and dvd player at the same time?

blaze · Guru

milo wrote:

thanks guys, i like the idea of solar with duel batteries.
i gather solar will run your power during the day and batteries for night?
if thats the cas how many hrs would i get, ie running my laptop, ps3 and dvd player at the same time?

Hi Milo
With the battery invertor system you always run off the batteries and recharge the batteries with the sola panels during the day/sun period. You need to work out the usage for a 24 hr period and then work out the best way to replace that ie : in summer you may get 10 hrs per day to recharge and the question then is how big of a solar panel do you need to replace what you have used in the last 24 hrs, this may also include some driving in a motorhome/ vehicle using the vehicle alternator to charge not only the vehicle battery but also the house battery. May have just confused you more but I hope not
cheers
blaze

jimricho · Guru

I would suggest not putting "the cart before the horse"

Firstly are you talking about fitting your Dad's motorhome or your proposed new rig for yourself?

If the latter, sort out your options first, Campervan? Slide-on, Motorhome, Caravan etc. Then I would suggest you make sure the rig is fitted with a dual battery system.

Worry about solar, gennies, inverters later when the needs become evident. If you rush in first you could well subsequently find you have made choices that are not appropriate to your circumstances.

Regarding your electronic gizmos... when mains power is not available, operate these directly from 12v where possible to avoid needing an inverter. Power supplies for laptops that operate directly from 12v are readily available and can be set to suit almost all laptops. If your TV, DVD, playthingy etc comes with a "cigarette lighter" plug that means it will run directly off 12v, just have some "cigarette lighter" sockets installed in the rig. Your lights in the rig should be 12v ones as these are more efficient and do not require an inverter.

In general I believe that if there is a way to power any device from 12v without needing an inverter that is the way to go.

Regarding solar.... your 12v stuff is powered from the battery full time, both day and night. The solar panel's job is to recharge the battery when there is sufficient sunlight available. The battery is an essential part of the system, even on sunny days, as the panels cannot be connected directly to the devices without the battery and the solar panel regulator.

You should also have a suitable mains powered (240v) battery charger fitted so you are not dependent on solar when mains is available. This is regardless of whether you have solar, generator or whatever.

milo · Senior Member

jimricho wrote:

I would suggest not putting "the cart before the horse"

Firstly are you talking about fitting your Dad's motorhome or your proposed new rig for yourself?

If the latter, sort out your options first, Campervan? Slide-on, Motorhome, Caravan etc. Then I would suggest you make sure the rig is fitted with a dual battery system.

Worry about solar, gennies, inverters later when the needs become evident. If you rush in first you could well subsequently find you have made choices that are not appropriate to your circumstances.

Regarding your electronic gizmos... when mains power is not available, operate these directly from 12v where possible to avoid needing an inverter. Power supplies for laptops that operate directly from 12v are readily available and can be set to suit almost all laptops. If your TV, DVD, playthingy etc comes with a "cigarette lighter" plug that means it will run directly off 12v, just have some "cigarette lighter" sockets installed in the rig. Your lights in the rig should be 12v ones as these are more efficient and do not require an inverter.

In general I believe that if there is a way to power any device from 12v without needing an inverter that is the way to go.

Regarding solar.... your 12v stuff is powered from the battery full time, both day and night. The solar panel's job is to recharge the battery when there is sufficient sunlight available. The battery is an essential part of the system, even on sunny days, as the panels cannot be connected directly to the devices without the battery and the solar panel regulator.

You should also have a suitable mains powered (240v) battery charger fitted so you are not dependent on solar when mains is available. This is regardless of whether you have solar, generator or whatever.

thanks mate, im looking at ways to power my own rig, what ever it ends up being,..

PeterD · Guru

blaze wrote:
Hi Milo
With the battery invertor system you always run off the batteries and recharge the batteries with the sola panels during the day/sun period. You need to work out the usage for a 24 hr period and then work out the best way to replace that ie : in summer you may get 10 hrs per day to recharge and the question then is how big of a solar panel do you need to replace what you have used in the last 24 hrs, this may also include some driving in a motorhome/ vehicle using the vehicle alternator to charge not only the vehicle battery but also the house battery. May have just confused you more but I hope not
cheers
blaze

There seems to be a little confusion here regarding hours of sunshine and Peak Sun Hours.

The solar panels are rated to give their output in times of peak sun exposure. At other times your panel will produce less. The only charts I can find quickly are in the publication Solar that Really Works. If you have a look at that (you mean you have not purchased it yet) and you will see that 10 hour figure is wildly optimistic.

In summer the peak sun hours in the far north and Tasmania are only 5.5 or 6 hours. On the same latitude there a couple of spots in the corner country and the middle of WA that reach 8.5 or 9. The bottom of WA is 7 and Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane are 6.5.

In winter the highest is way up north at 5 and Melbourne, Perth and Tasmania struggle with 2.

Don't get optimistic with the available power to you as you travel. This is the reason we advise caravanners to junk their inverters and power things directly from 12 V. There are going to be times you will not be able to live lavishly from your solar systems and may have to forego your TV.

It may be OK for large motorhomes with their large battery banks and roof full of panels to fit large inverters. We in our vans do not have the weight allowance to carry these. The electrical systems in some motorhomes is heavier than the load allowance of the average van. I don't know what this fetish for forum members to have inverters installed in their vans. Just because every 12 V supplier is pushing them it is no reason to fall for their bait. By all means, carry a small inverter. Use it sparingly and do not have it installed in your van. That is a recipe for flogging your batteries too hard.

milo · Senior Member

what about something like this

productimage_26.jpg?width=500&height=246&nostretch

ARK Smart Battery Charger

Built in charger
Charge cycle monitor
Battery condition LED monitor
Keyed battery isolator
Accessory port
Tool less terminal connection
Protected external terminals
Tough weather resistant case
Fastening latches & Portable carry handle
Mounting brackets

http://aussiervproducts.com.au/prod26.htm

-- Edited by milo on Friday 25th of June 2010 04:25:25 PM

jimricho · Guru

Probably fine for occasional use such as (tent) camping, or for a bit of extra battery capacity over and above a proper dual battery system. It would also be fine for those who only very occasionally "free camp" and then only for short overnight stays.

4WD shops such as ARB and TJM franchises (and others too) will usually supply and fit a system for you. You should factor the cost of this into your budget. Also you should factor in the cost of a multi-stage "smart" charger (for when mains power is available). I would start with just the dual battery and wait until you find the need for extra stuff such as the battery box and/or solar panels.

The dual battery system recharges while you are driving along so you may find you do not need solar unless you are camping in the one spot for a few days or more, particularly if you have a 3 way fridge where you can use gas for it.

I definitely agree with PeterD's comments on inverters. As well as the site recommended by Peter you can get some more info on solar at http://www.solaronline.com.au/solar_system_basics

Sheba · Guru

Thank you guys so much for your info, and Milo for asking that particular question. I still haven't checked my system out yet, to see if I need to get another Panel or Battery, but from what you say, I'm thinking I can run everything with what I've already got.

I won't be running more than 2 things at a time, one of them being the Fridge, which I turn off when I go to sleep, and re-start first thing in the morning.

Don't have an Inverter, and everything will plug into the House Battery, except the Fridge, which is permanently connected.

Vehicle Battery is a seperate unit.

Cheers,
Sheba.

-- Edited by Sheba on Friday 25th of June 2010 11:43:54 PM

jimricho · Guru

Just a quick addendum to my previous post..

I have no "hands on" knowledge of that particular battery box so my comments are on the basis that it will do what it claims

Jim

PS: Sheba, I assume from your comments that you have a compressor type fridge and not a 3way?

Also you seem to have pretty good "handle" on how to use your battery power to best advantage.

-- Edited by jimricho on Saturday 26th of June 2010 07:04:11 AM

blaze · Guru

Sheba wrote:

Thank you guys so much for your info, and Milo for asking that particular question. I still haven't checked my system out yet, to see if I need to get another Panel or Battery, but from what you say, I'm thinking I can run everything with what I've already got.

I won't be running more than 2 things at a time, one of them being the Fridge, which I turn off when I go to sleep, and re-start first thing in the morning.

Don't have an Inverter, and everything will plug into the House Battery, except the Fridge, which is permanently connected.

Vehicle Battery is a seperate unit.

Cheers,
Sheba.

Hi Sheba
IMHO you would be better to leave the fridge on, if you are not opening the door during the night it will cycle very little, I think it would run longer the next day trying to get temps back down.
cheers
blaze
ps I run my compressor type fridge on my aux battery in my vehicle and the next day it still has enough to start my vehicle, not a deep cycle battery but a 600 cca battery

-- Edited by Sheba on Friday 25th of June 2010 11:43:54 PM

Sheba · Guru

Sorry guys, I forgot to mention that the times I switched the fridge off at night, I was down in Victoria, in winter. I have run it continuously up here, but wasn't sure how it would go long-term.
No Gas. The only gas appliance I have, is a small Butane Stove.

Cheers,
Sheba.

jimricho · Guru

blaze wrote:

Hi Sheba
IMHO you would be better to leave the fridge on, if you are not opening the door during the night it will cycle very little, I think it would run longer the next day trying to get temps back down.
cheers
blaze
ps I run my compressor type fridge on my aux battery in my vehicle and the next day it still has enough to start my vehicle, not a deep cycle battery but a 600 cca battery
If you have a properly installed aux battery the state of charge of the aux battery, even if flat, will not affect the starting battery. I know a former tag-along operator who (before the days of AGMs etc) used to use Yuasa Overlander batteries for both main and aux batteries and preferred the Overlander to deep cycle batteries as he claimed they recharged more quickly. I use an Optima "Red Top" in the Goldstream. The "Red Top" is a starting battery and is over eight years old and is still working fine as a deep cycle.

If switching the fridge off at night I'd suggest monitoring the temperature of any meat or meat products to ensure it does not rise above 5 degrees.

-- Edited by jimricho on Sunday 27th of June 2010 07:52:28 AM

blaze · Guru

jimricho wrote:

blaze wrote:

Hi Sheba
IMHO you would be better to leave the fridge on, if you are not opening the door during the night it will cycle very little, I think it would run longer the next day trying to get temps back down.
cheers
blaze
ps I run my compressor type fridge on my aux battery in my vehicle and the next day it still has enough to start my vehicle, not a deep cycle battery but a 600 cca battery
If you have a properly installed aux battery the state of charge of the aux battery, even if flat, will not affect the starting battery. I know a former tag-along operator who (before the days of AGMs etc) used to use Yuasa Overlander batteries for both main and aux batteries and preferred the Overlander to deep cycle batteries as he claimed they recharged more quickly. I use an Optima "Red Top" in the Goldstream. The "Red Top" is a starting battery and is over eight years old and is still working fine as a deep cycle.

If switching the fridge off at night I'd suggest monitoring the temperature of any meat or meat products to ensure it does not rise above 5 degrees.

-- Edited by jimricho on Sunday 27th of June 2010 07:52:28 AM

I have a correctly installed dual battery set up, dont read into my comments what is not stated. I said that my aux battery would still start my vehicle after running the fridge all night. The reason I know this is that my main battery dropped a cell and failed on the gunbarrel highway last june and until I got back to adelaide I run my vehicle on my aux battery by flicking the switch that allows me to do that.

jimricho · Guru

Sorry Blaze, I didn't mean to imply that your installation was anything other than "kosher" but my mind-reading skills are very poor and I couldn't see the link between running a fridge on an aux battery and still being able to get a start the next morning. Now that you've explained that in fact, due to an emergency situation, you were using your aux battery as a starting battery as well all is clear. Your choice of a 600cca battery for the aux obviously proved to be a good one when stuck out on the Gunbarrel with a dud main battery. A deep cycle would have been most unlikely to have gotten you out trouble.

cheers,

Jim

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

jimricho wrote:
A deep cycle would have been most unlikely to have gotten you out trouble.

There is no problem using a deep cycle battery for cranking, by the way.
I am using a Fullriver HGL 120Ahr AGM as the crank battery in the OKA. It starts the 4L Perkins diesel with ease. Just don't put AGM batteries under the bonnet because they don't like the heat there much.

Cheers,
Peter

jimricho · Guru

Hi Peter n Margaret,

I was referring to a normal flooded (wet) battery. I know that my aux battery (flooded, deep cycle) won't start my (diesel) Pajero as I've tested it.

I've used an Optima Yellow Top (deep cycle) for cranking a 115 Evinrude outboard without any problems. I'm currently using an Optima Red Top (cranking battery) as a deep cycle in the Goldstream. A battery guy told me once that the only difference between a Yellow Top and a Blue Top (marine) was the terminal configuration, how true this is I have no idea. It wouldn't surprise me if there was not much difference between any of the Optimas internally (??). I've seen some suppliers list AGMs as "dual purpose".

Jim

-- Edited by jimricho on Thursday 1st of July 2010 04:50:55 PM

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

jimricho wrote:
I was referring to a normal flooded (wet) battery. I know that my aux battery (flooded, deep cycle) won't start my (diesel) Pajero as I've tested it.

A wet deep cycle is also fine for cranking. It just has to be big enough for the engine in question, like any cranking battery must. Wet deep cycles often quote Cold Crank Amps in their specs.
Optima batteries are spiral wound AGMs. Traditional AGMs are good for cranking (better than Gels). Spiral wound ones are particularly good at cranking.
With the Fullriver AGMs, the DC series is a better cycling battery, but the HGL series is better for cranking, but both have the ability to crank.

Cheers,
Peter

BobnBev · Senior Member

Hi All, Just a little thing to watch with inverters..Dont know if this has been said here before or not .But it wont hurt to say it again..Some cheep inverters and some square wave inverters have 120Volts a side and can if conected to a van or motorhomes wire system put 120 volt on the earth side making the van skin live with 120 volts...I know mine is like this and I only use it to plug in a 240 system like a plug pak ect.Its a small 300 watt.never in to the van system its self...I remember reading this some place ...Bob N bev

Sheba · Guru

Milo wrote:

im looking at my own set up, either kombi van (or what ever i decide)
my portable dvd can run off 12 volt or 240 ,
don't know what to do about the ps3 and my laptop)
i wonder if using all 3 at same time would use up much power?

Hi Milo,
Doesn't your Lap-top have a 12 V cable ? Mine has one. I thought they all did. If not, you may be able to buy one.

Cheers,
Sheba.

jimricho · Guru

BobnBev wrote:

Hi All, Just a little thing to watch with inverters..Dont know if this has been said here before or not .But it wont hurt to say it again..Some cheep inverters and some square wave inverters have 120Volts a side and can if conected to a van or motorhomes wire system put 120 volt on the earth side making the van skin live with 120 volts...I know mine is like this and I only use it to plug in a 240 system like a plug pak ect.Its a small 300 watt.never in to the van system its self...I remember reading this some place ...Bob N bev

Not just a little thing Bob, it's quite a serious thing and a good one to bring to the attention of the forum. Another reason why I don't like "el-cheapo" inverters. That said there are many inverters on the market (including square wave ones, aka "modified sine wave" furious

) that do offer proper isolation between the 12v input and the 240v ac output, check before buying one.

Regarding Sheba's post above here's a copy of part of a post I put up earlier today in the thread "tomahawk generators"

quote...

As I've expressed elsewhere on this forum my view is that (in the absence of a good quality genny or available mains power) where possible, Laptops, TVs etc should be powered directly from 12v. 12v power supplies for laptops are readily available and are compatible with most laptops. Many small LCD TVs and TV DVD combos can be powered directly from 12v. 12v chargers are available for many mobiles.

end quote

If one doesn't have a "12v adaptor" for their laptop, they're available from Jaycar (and elsewhere). check out MP-3463 and MP-3472