check out the new remote control Jockey Wheel SmartBar rearview170 Cobb Grill Skid Row Recovery Gear Caravan Industry Association of Australia
Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: RCDs & safety when using portable geny or inverter.


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date:
RCDs & safety when using portable geny or inverter.


Hi all
Since this is a tech  thread ,I think it may be advisable to point out that your RCD in the van [if fitted] is inoperable & will not trip on a fault,  when the van is connected to a portable geny or inverter via the inlet socket.

__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 3917
Date:

I'm not familiar gennies but is not the earth pin on the geny output connected to the neutral pin?

I'm not challenging your advice here as it may well be the case that in many instances it isn't.

__________________

Merda tauris scientia vincit



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1467
Date:

Hi Jim No the Earth is NOT conected to the neutral in a generator or inverters. thats why they dont work with a RCD. They are basicly an isolated power source. Cheers Daryl

__________________
D.L.Bishop


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 3917
Date:

Thanks Daryl for clearing that up.

I certainly endorse OT123's advice

Jim

__________________

Merda tauris scientia vincit



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1218
Date:

Are yousure that you gentlemen aren't spies.Talking in code all the time.Just jesting.I am electrically challenged.Mate next door reckons that some of the advice that has been givenby you guys is really good.He is a Sparky.Cheers.Ibbo.

__________________

"Wings Over The Navy"



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 3917
Date:

ibbo wrote:

Are you sure that you gentlemen aren't spies.Talking in code all the time.




Do you think we'd tell you if we were???? we wouldn't be very good spies if we did!

(now where did I put my shoe phone?)



__________________

Merda tauris scientia vincit



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 3917
Date:

ibbo wrote:

Are yousure that you gentlemen aren't spies.Talking in code all the time.Just jesting.I am electrically challenged.Mate next door reckons that some of the advice that has been givenby you guys is really good.He is a Sparky.Cheers.Ibbo.



Sorry folks, RCD is techies talk for the safety switch that saves you from having your day spoiled by switching the power off if you happen to touch a live wire or faulty appliance.

 



__________________

Merda tauris scientia vincit



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 2531
Date:

R.C.D. = residual current device, basically it detects when the current is flowing to earth (short)

__________________

"LOOK BUSY,..............GOD'S WATCHING"



Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date:

 Hi All
Perhaps I should have explained the term ,thanks to those who have explained.
If you have a devise with a test button on the face ,on the switch board [house or van] you a RCD.
Sometimes simply referred as a safety switch .In my opinion not a good term as it may lead  some to believe they are totally safe under ALL circumstances

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 24th of December 2009 10:59:21 AM

__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 4206
Date:

oldtrack123 wrote:

Hi all
Since this is a tech  thread ,I think it may be advisable to point out that your RCD in the van [if fitted] is inoperable & will not trip on a fault,  when the van is connected to a portable geny or inverter via the inlet socket.



Does the same apply to the remote unit ,? thats the one on the yellow short lead

that was used on building sites or outside use . 



__________________

 

 

Be your self; there's no body better qualified !                    "I came into this world with nothing , I still have most of it"

 

JC.

 


 

                                             

                

    

                          



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1467
Date:

Just cruisin01. I have one like you describe & it Definitely doesnt trip if used on a Generator or an Inverter. Since they are isolated types of power supply the only way you can get electrocuted is by grabing the Active & the Neutral conections at the same time. Daryl

__________________
D.L.Bishop


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date:

DeBe wrote:

Just cruisin01. I have one like you describe & it Definitely doesnt trip if used on a Generator or an Inverter. Since they are isolated types of power supply the only way you can get electrocuted is by grabing the Active & the Neutral conections at the same time. Daryl



 Hi  Daryl

Sorry but not quite correct ,as industry has unfortunately found out after several    deaths.
 It is now compulsory for all genys in the constuction & mining industry to be permantently fitted with a fully operational RCD.
The so called fully isolated system is ok in  theory but  if  a fault[undetected] developes between one line & earth ,IT BECOME AN EARTH NEUTRAL system.

 With all the dangers of a mains earth neutral .

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date:

Deleted Double post



-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 24th of December 2009 01:39:33 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date:

oldtrack123 wrote:

justcruisin01 wrote:

 

apply to the remote unit ,? thats the one on the yellow short lead

that was used on building sites or outside use . 



 Hi Justcruisen

     They offer no protection with portable genys or inverters
Give protection only on mains supply
  see reply to Daryl




 



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1467
Date:

Ive just done a risk assesment for today & decided it would be mutch safer to go back to bed. Even thats not safe the wife thaught she might come to bed to, heart atack risk. To many rules & regulations. Ime sure more people are killed on the road than electrocuted. Daryl

__________________
D.L.Bishop


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 2333
Date:

You could of course drive in your own earth stake then to eliminate as best possible earth potential rise urinate on it..... But please DO NOT WEAR AN ALFOIL BEANIE when driving in the earth stake....
I always earth my own van seperatley.

-- Edited by Basil Faulty on Saturday 26th of December 2009 02:42:11 PM

__________________
Don't take life too seriously.... No one gets out alive

KIA Sorento CRDi EX  ( Ebony black) with 5 hex chrome plated tire air valve covers, Coramal Sunsheild, Elcheapo GPS, First Aid Kit, full KIA toolkit & Yellow lenses on the Foglights......


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date:

Basil Faulty wrote:

You could of course drive in your own earth stake then to eliminate as best possible earth potential rise urinate on it..... But please DO NOT WEAR AN ALFOIL BEANIE when driving in the earth stake....
I always earth my own van seperatley.

-- Edited by Basil Faulty on Saturday 26th of December 2009 02:42:11 PM



 Hi Basil
Again sorry to give you bad news


The rules currently advise agains using an earth stake

Wording being "an earth stake is neither required or recommended'""
"
 my explanation: can cause  damage to underground services As well as possible earth wire overheating due to stray earth currents.



-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 27th of December 2009 05:42:46 PM

__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1695
Date:

Oldtrack............I have a blown globe in my kitchen. Is it okay if I change it myself whilst I am wearing a green shirt? Bear in mind I had sausages and mash for dinner as well as two small glasses of white wine.

My next door neighbour is away in Sydney for two weeks........would that have a negative impact on the RCD's positive drive or should I just invert the portable Gen set into the neutral position??

Bloody Hell Oldtrack..................don't you EVER give up??

If the man wants to earth his caravan.................with a stake............F*cking let him!! I've never heard so much crap............!!

Until you turned up we were perfectly happy setting fire to each other's caravans and mobile homes. If I obeyed all these regulations I would never turn anything on.....let alone the girlfriend!!

How could rules advise against earthing something out?? The more dirt the better I say. Daisy hates it and just wants to clean everything.....................but earthing is GOOD!!!



__________________
Daisy and Disco Duck

Adelaide South Australia


Gotta Think Outside the Square!

Now that food has replaced sex in my life, I can't even get into my own pants.

If at First You Don't Succeed.......Redefine Success !!


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 2333
Date:

Over night, as I am for reasons I won't go into staying in my caravan, I tested this out in a practical manner, the rcd IN VANS IS ALSO AN OVERCURRENT PROTECTION DEVICE AS WELL, the overcurrent part trips if I overload the circuit but the RCD part does not if I power via the generator and deleberatly cause a leak to earth.

But one question did occur to me, how do you plug in the generator legaly?

I don't need 240v so I plugged the lead from the power supply into a 10 amp lead so the battery will charge, the lights will run and my inverter powers the cpap machine... This will stop the thought police from dobbing me in...

__________________
Don't take life too seriously.... No one gets out alive

KIA Sorento CRDi EX  ( Ebony black) with 5 hex chrome plated tire air valve covers, Coramal Sunsheild, Elcheapo GPS, First Aid Kit, full KIA toolkit & Yellow lenses on the Foglights......


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1467
Date:

Hi Basill To run your genny Im afraid you will have to use your specialy designed powelead, just like the rest of us. Which after 40Ys of extensive reaserch apears to have stood the test of time & still works. Cheers Daryl

__________________
D.L.Bishop


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 2531
Date:

I'd like to know how you are going to drive your earth stake 600 mm into ground (the depth required in south australia for underground services) and retrieve it manually for the next stop!

I know I couldnt!!

__________________

"LOOK BUSY,..............GOD'S WATCHING"



Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date:

Disco Duck wrote:

Oldtrack............I have a blown globe in my kitchen. Is it okay if I change it myself whilst I am wearing a green shirt? Bear in mind I had sausages and mash for dinner as well as two small glasses of white wine.

My next door neighbour is away in Sydney for two weeks........would that have a negative impact on the RCD's positive drive or should I just invert the portable Gen set into the neutral position??

Bloody Hell Oldtrack..................don't you EVER give up??

If the man wants to earth his caravan.................with a stake............F*cking let him!! I've never heard so much crap............!!

Until you turned up we were perfectly happy setting fire to each other's caravans and mobile homes. If I obeyed all these regulations I would never turn anything on.....let alone the girlfriend!!

How could rules advise against earthing something out?? The more dirt the better I say. Daisy hates it and just wants to clean everything.....................but earthing is GOOD!!!



   Hi Disco
I thought this was /is a tech thread.
 Not one for nice fairy tales that makes everyone happy

 Whether you or others like it or not they are rules & recommendations
Like all rules they evolve over time,often after it is found that established practise or even rules have problems The earth stake is just one of such rules

You say ""the more earth the better " that simply shows again your total lack of knowledge on the subject
It is very obvious that this forum has many unqualified people advising others on subjects they simply do not understand
I will exclude De Be & Basil from that@ least they can put up a reasonable argument.
Not just "it,s what I do so it must be right attitude"

If you want to make comments @ least find a bit out on the subject first
Why not buy the Aus Standard & study them [but then you would know better wouldn't you
.Now I am sure your back is up again but frankly I could not care less
Be prepared for more info that may be of use to those who genuinely want to know how to do things RIGHT 
Your abusive & foul language does not worry me ,but it may offend others but I have always believed abuse is the last resort of those who cannot put a sound case to back their views

Keep watching ,you will probably end up with a nervous break down

I am sorry if I am upsetting a group who seem to believe this forum is their  kingdom to rule & advise & that no one should go against them
For the benifit of the others I will continue to point out facts &  things that i believe are not known , particulary where it envolves safety.
As I have said before ,no one has to follow my advise but do not try to justify your views when you have no sound basis

Only one person will stop me from posting such  critical info  & that is the owner/ webmaster.



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date:

dave06 wrote:

R.C.D. = residual current device, basically it detects when the current is flowing to earth (short)



   Hi Dave
A slight misunderstanding of it's mode of operation

. It actually detects an out of balance between active & neutral 
That out of balance is due to some current flowing to earth .
But it does not monitor earth current



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 2531
Date:

oh!! thank god you are here we could all be killed due to misunderstanding the R.C.D.

one question, do you do anything else other than sit around talking about cabling, do you travel, this is after all primarily a "travel forum"

if you could just become a little more human and not so damn pedantic in your dealings with folks you would find this a very good forum to be in!

tell us your life story, where have you been, what have you done, where would you like to go

this is not an attack, just trying to get to know YOU!! then maybe you will want to know us,

__________________

"LOOK BUSY,..............GOD'S WATCHING"



Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date:

Basil Faulty wrote:

Over night, as I am for reasons I won't go into staying in my caravan, I tested this out in a practical manner, the rcd IN VANS IS ALSO AN OVERCURRENT PROTECTION DEVICE AS WELL, the overcurrent part trips if I overload the circuit but the RCD part does not if I power via the generator and deleberatly cause a leak to earth.

But one question did occur to me, how do you plug in the generator legaly?

I don't need 240v so I plugged the lead from the power supply into a 10 amp lead so the battery will charge, the lights will run and my inverter powers the cpap machine... This will stop the thought police from dobbing me in...



  Hi Basil

 "But one question did occur to me, how do you plug in the generator legaly? ' oo

One of the problems with the standards is they lag behind & often only react to situations as they arrive.
Like the earth stake, which not so long ago was recommened practise until they found problems with ever increasing use.
They are again lagging & many in the industry expected the latest rules to bring in that new genys  & inverters should have a RCD permantly fitted,
They seem to have dodged that one [lots of commercial complicatios & possibly the end of thev $99 cheapies
Also would recognise the extent that small genys are being used in the recreation market
Personally I admit there is no legal solution except that if the geny has an olcb rated @ 10 amps that should be ok. 



BUT & A BIG BUT.YOU still have A nonapprovved lead with 10aplug & 15 amp socket BUT & A BIG BUT



__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1467
Date:

Personaly I for one hope this fixation for earth leakage detectors doesnt ever get to the point of being fitted to every Small generator or Inverter absolute over Kill. Verry happy using an isolated type power supply. Even use a portable generator in my Tinny to run a flood light as do alot of fishermen down this way for Squid & Gar fishing, bearing in mind this is salt water were mixing with here I have never heard of any one getting a shock Yet!! & they have been doing it for years. Its realy does boil down to risk assesment, any body would think a lot of people have been killed using small generators & inverters. I was taught as an ETSA linesman when working on live voltages to check any thing you think is live to use the back of your hand to check, that way if you are earthed & the object is live you wont get hooked up Ie your hand will automaticly pull away from the live object. Un fortunately Electritians arent taught that these days instead are taught to rely on insulated gloves (an acident waiting to happen). Cheers Daryl

__________________
D.L.Bishop


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 2333
Date:

Perhaps another legal way to power up a van on 240V
I discovered to my amazement that my large inverter has a 15 amp outlet and has the SA approval "tick", I have a 60 AMP 12 volt supply so if I were to run the 12 volt into my inverter and then run the van on the 15 amp lead i should be legal... Provided the inverter etc is indoors....

__________________
Don't take life too seriously.... No one gets out alive

KIA Sorento CRDi EX  ( Ebony black) with 5 hex chrome plated tire air valve covers, Coramal Sunsheild, Elcheapo GPS, First Aid Kit, full KIA toolkit & Yellow lenses on the Foglights......


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date:

DeBe wrote:

 I was taught as an ETSA linesman when working on live voltages to check any thing you think is live to use the back of your hand to check, that way if you are earthed & the object is live you wont get hooked up Ie your hand will automaticly pull away from the live object. Un fortunately Electritians arent taught that these days instead are taught to rely on insulated gloves (an acident waiting to happen). Cheers Daryl



   Hi Dasryl 
I agree the quickest & surest  way to make sure the power is "OFF



But how many out there know that or would do it EVERY TIME'  they touched a possibly live oblject due to a fault.

Remember it is only isolated until a line to earth fault developes.  
It could sit there for ages with no one aware that was now  an EN system.  This is now being recognised 
A new safetey devise is coming on to the market which isolates the supply WHEN THAT 1ST FAULT OCCURS.
 Called a RVD ,as an ex linesman you may have seen used one to check for faults , this goes further & works in conjunction with an OLCB to isolate the power no matter where the fault developes ie before or after the RVD



-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 28th of December 2009 03:00:59 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date:

Basil Faulty wrote:

Perhaps another legal way to power up a van on 240V
I discovered to my amazement that my large inverter has a 15 amp outlet and has the SA approval "tick", I have a 60 AMP 12 volt supply so if I were to run the 12 volt into my inverter and then run the van on the 15 amp lead i should be legal... Provided the inverter etc is indoors....



         Hi Basil

        Yes that would be legal.
         As long as the inverter is weather protected . But wqhat are you driving your60amp 12v supply from?



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date:

dave06 wrote:

I'd like to know how you are going to drive your earth stake 600 mm into ground (the depth required in south australia for underground services) and retrieve it manually for the next stop!

I know I couldnt!!



         Hi DAve

        Yes 600mm is the mandatory depth set by Aus Standards

          Just as all the other mandatory rules why be selective in applying them ?
.
THEIR STATEMENT "AN EARTH STAKE IS NOT RECOMMENDED OR REQUIRED "
 This one is not mandatory but a recommendation for what they consider good reasons.
There is still the other point  ;STRAY EARTH CURRENTS & sometimes they can be a real problem with overheating earth wires possibly sufficient to burn out the extension lead.



__________________
1 2  >  Last»  | Page of 2  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us
Purchase Grey Nomad bumper stickers Read our daily column, the Nomad News The Grey Nomad's Guidebook