Its not just double cabs- My sister broke the chassis on her hilux extra cab in just about the same place, on the other side of Big Red, the big sand dune nr Birdsville.I think it must be a weak point in the design of these type of utes. The single cabs,like mine, put the weight further away from the ends of the chassis, and having airbags only make it worse as they make a pivot point .Its something to ponder if you are thinking of buying that type of vehicle. Bill
-- Edited by bill12 on Thursday 31st of October 2013 06:34:44 AM
ozjohn said
09:15 AM Oct 31, 2013
As MikeL says, these vehicles are designed for each side of the rear suspension to be supported in two positions. One forward and one aft of the axle. By fitting Airbags the weight of the rear of the vehicle is supported in one point directly above the axle which the chassis has not been designed for. Fitting airbags to leaf springs suspensions is fraught with disaster. Ozjohn.
-- Edited by ozjohn on Thursday 31st of October 2013 09:17:25 AM
Golddetectornomad said
01:17 PM Oct 31, 2013
Many thanks for your post and warning Kiwi-as, the silver Mitsubishi Triton GLX-R , 4x4 shown above, is identical to mine!.....I still believe moderation in all things including the way we drive is the way to go...how hard and fast was that cattle grid hit I wonder?....looking at mine again I believe it is built to withstand reasonable wear and tear when towing my 19' Heritage Van..they are a verrry long vehicle with the ARB or Flexiglass rear cab and I admit it is tempting to overload.....a timely warning to all dual cab owners no matter what configuration they run them in..hope the owners of that one get some sort of help/satisfaction from Mitsubishi...that model was built from 2010 and is basically still the current model Triton 4x4....thanks..Hoo Roo
-- Edited by Gerty Dancer on Thursday 31st of October 2013 03:11:37 PM
Mike196 said
04:09 PM Oct 31, 2013
These chassis' have leaf springs for a reason, and this example (with airbags fitted) is now common across the genre when taken offroad with heavy loads. Good luck getting any support from the airbag manufacturer/fitter. The leaf springs can be engineered to support the load without resorting to bags, which place undue loads on one point in the chassis. Something has to give and as per the pics it's the chassis.
the rocket said
05:32 PM Oct 31, 2013
Hi, thanks sooo much for this post as we are looking for a vehicle like these.
PeterS said
06:10 PM Oct 31, 2013
For what it is worth, we have an Isuzu DMax double cab & were advised by the caravan manufacturer NOT to fit airbags but rather have the leaf springs reinforced. Good advice I think!
Cheers
Peter & Jan
Kiwi-as said
06:38 PM Oct 31, 2013
Mitsubishi have told the owner there is no chassis rails in Aus and indeed any where else, and the Plant in Thailand has tooled up ready for the new model.
They can straighten and strengthen it, so the owner has bought another 2nd hand ute a 2wheel drive BT50, and left this morning with his camper, his home base is South Coast NSW.
The vehicle is still under warranty ,with only 30,000 km done, but Mitsubishi are digging their toes in because of the fitment of airbags. The owner said there was no warning in the hand book about fitting of air bags to rear axle.
He has left it all in the hands of his insurance company and lawyer.
My concern is these manufacturers are putting more powerful donks under the bonnet, and increasing the tow ratings, BUT with no corresponding strength in the overall chassis.
I have air bags on my cruiser, and usually have 25 to 30 psi in them when towing. I have heard of people with upwards of 100 psi.
GaryKelly said
06:40 PM Oct 31, 2013
Vindicates the negative reports I heard about air bags before I decided on helper springs. Much cheaper too, and no maintenance.
cultana said
10:29 PM Oct 31, 2013
Kiwi-as wrote:
A Mitsi Triton arrived in caravan park a few days ago with a broken back.
He was following a friend who was in a Pajero, they were both towing Ultimate off road campers.
He had Air Bag assist in the rear axle, and they hit a cattle grid that was a bit exposed.
The Ultimate off road campers have SFA as far as ball weight so what did they have in the back?
Seems the back break might have more to do with the load as well as the airbags in the leaf suspension.
-- Edited by cultana on Thursday 31st of October 2013 10:30:05 PM
johnq said
10:42 PM Oct 31, 2013
BB (Kiwi-as),
Good thread, detail and follow-up by you. Thanks.
denise1961 said
10:43 PM Oct 31, 2013
we need to know of these things happening as we are currently pulling a 16 1/2 foot jayco with a 2007 model BF ford sedan, and my husband is thinking of a ute for more towing capacity (sedan is 2300Kg) as we have a couple of really long (klms) trips coming up.
oldboar said
10:56 PM Oct 31, 2013
Virtually zero chance of a warranty claim. None of these rear leaf spring vehicles are designed for airbag fitment. All warranties require manufacturers approval for non-standard fitments and you can bet your life that was not obtained. Anyone mug enough to fit airbags to a leaf spring suspension deserves everything they get as they transfer essentially all of the load to one of the weakest part of the chassis, a part that basically is only designed to hold the two load bearing points apart in the correct configuration.
Darrell
D and D said
11:17 PM Oct 31, 2013
I've just bought a BT50 dual cab after a stack of research and the only time I've seen or heard about incidents such as this its always involved airbag suspension being fitted - its not necessarily a towing issue because there are examples of this happening to vehicles that aren't towing anything. Its not a new problem and there are examples on just about every 4WD and RV forum. Any modification to a vehicle presents a risk of voiding the warranty if it alters the vehicle from its original design intent making it more prone to failure which air bag suspension obviously does. People should be doing some due diligence and take some personal responsibility and perhaps calling the manufacturer or even getting a written assurance from the installer that the manufacturer's warranty is not voided by the modification would prevent these things from happening and save people a whole stack of grief and money.
Aus-Kiwi said
02:27 AM Nov 1, 2013
No issue if it was a Cruiser or Patrol !!
Baz421 said
03:11 AM Nov 1, 2013
D and D wrote:
I've just bought a BT50 dual cab after a stack of research and the only time I've seen or heard about incidents such as this its always involved airbag suspension being fitted - its not necessarily a towing issue because there are examples of this happening to vehicles that aren't towing anything. Its not a new problem and there are examples on just about every 4WD and RV forum. Any modification to a vehicle presents a risk of voiding the warranty if it alters the vehicle from its original design intent making it more prone to failure which air bag suspension obviously does. People should be doing some due diligence and take some personal responsibility and perhaps calling the manufacturer or even getting a written assurance from the installer that the manufacturer's warranty is not voided by the modification would prevent these things from happening and save people a whole stack of grief and money.
Yep agree with you here.
Baz421 said
03:29 AM Nov 1, 2013
REPRINTED FROM ANOTHER RECENT POST OF MINE ON ANOTHER THREAD
This week I met 2 guys with twin cab 4WD's with Firestone airbags at 90PSI,,,, primarily to keep the rig level.
I know my Firestone bags can be pumped up to that pressure but for 4WD's they say,,,,
As a general rule, the Ride-Rite Air Helper Springs will support approximately 40 lbs. of load for each p.s.i. of inflation pressure (per pair). For example, 50 P.S. I. of inflation pressure will support a load of 2000 lbs. per pair of air helper springs.
By my rough calculations this equates to 1636kg of LIFT .
SO HOW MUCH WEIGHT IS IN THE BACK TO NEED THIS and what road quality would you have??? Just curious???
I know 10psi raises my Landcruiser LC79 about 25-30mm at the rear mudflap.
I guess there will be photos of them somewhere soon.
signwilson said
05:00 AM Nov 1, 2013
Jeeps break even better and don't need airbags to do it no parts in Australia either
cultana said
05:19 AM Nov 1, 2013
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
No issue if it was a Cruiser or Patrol !!
Your choice but I would not want to put my money on that.
Simply go for a legal 2" lift with heavy duty springs on the back to deal with the load. Patrols and cruisers are still trucks how ever much the makers dress them up.
get the springs designed for the load you need.
Aus-Kiwi said
06:14 AM Nov 1, 2013
Yep- concentrating weight in one area.
Keith19837 said
03:17 PM Nov 1, 2013
Generally speaking, car manufacturers spend millions of dollars and thousands of hours in R & D on their vehicles to produce them for a particular purpose within certain parameters. If we start to modify these vehicles we detract from that vehicle's capabilities albeit a small amount. Wider tyres, alloy wheels (especially on commercially designed and 4WD), tyres mounted on the back of vans, lowering suspension, raising suspension, attaching aeroplane wings the list goes on. It's a bit like the S.W.L. on a crane or jack. We might get away with a bit extra, but sooner or later something is going to break, fall over or spin out. This is why mechanics are no longer allowed to lower your suspension by heating the springs or turning your wheels back to front to give you instant 'mags'. Whilst I was a 'Plod' I would attend collisions (almost no such thing as an accident) to be told by the driver that their vehicle was substandard or that the road was wet or various other excuses. My answer was always the same. "Why is that that out of all the vehicles out there, yours is the one that came to grief?"
dorian said
03:39 PM Nov 1, 2013
What annoys me about automotive engineering in this country is that we cannot obtain the Australian Design Rules without paying for them. The SAA Wiring Rules are another set of standards that come at a price, and not cheap either.
Why shouldn't standards be freely available, especially when public safety is involved?
Keith19837 said
04:12 PM Nov 1, 2013
dorian wrote:
What annoys me about automotive engineering in this country is that we cannot obtain the Australian Design Rules without paying for them. The SAA Wiring Rules are another set of standards that come at a price, and not cheap either.
Why shouldn't standards be freely available, especially when public safety is involved?
G'day Dorian. I'm not too sure but they may be down loadable (if you can find them in the myriad of internet info). All legislation had to be paid for from the government printers but can now be generally found on line for free. I do know that the Victorian design (roadworthy) regs are available and certain vehicle wiring diagrams can also be downloaded.
I don't know how I got this wrong because it was only recently that I was looking for them. I have a paper set of ADRs that a friend at the RTA photocopied for me some 30 years ago and I was thinking of scanning them for posterity before discarding them.
However, the SAA Wiring Rules (domestic and commercial electrical wiring) still do not appear to be free.
Bryan said
05:11 PM Nov 1, 2013
Baz421 wrote:
D and D wrote:
I've just bought a BT50 dual cab after a stack of research and the only time I've seen or heard about incidents such as this its always involved airbag suspension being fitted - its not necessarily a towing issue because there are examples of this happening to vehicles that aren't towing anything. Its not a new problem and there are examples on just about every 4WD and RV forum. Any modification to a vehicle presents a risk of voiding the warranty if it alters the vehicle from its original design intent making it more prone to failure which air bag suspension obviously does. People should be doing some due diligence and take some personal responsibility and perhaps calling the manufacturer or even getting a written assurance from the installer that the manufacturer's warranty is not voided by the modification would prevent these things from happening and save people a whole stack of grief and money.
Yep agree with you here.
Totally agree. Its becoming fashionable not to take responsibility for one's action.
Kiwi-as said
06:16 PM Nov 1, 2013
This discussion is great. I see so many double cabs out there these days towing very sizable vans and wonder when they are going to come unstuck.
I felt I had to bring the problem to the attention of a lot of the new nomads out there.
They are probably quite all right as long as you don't fill up that nice big cargo space, as well as towing that van behind, and slow down when you encounter uneven or rough roads.
Delta18 said
06:37 PM Nov 1, 2013
dorian wrote:
However, the SAA Wiring Rules (domestic and commercial electrical wiring) still do not appear to be free.
And a good thing too I reckon. If every Tom, Dick & Neil could get them free and easily, they would think that in minutes they would learn the procedures that electricians take years to learn (properly).
Who knows what disasters would then befall them, or rather someone who later comes in contact with their work.
Cheers Neil
Delta18 said
06:39 PM Nov 1, 2013
denise1961 wrote:
we need to know of these things happening as we are currently pulling a 16 1/2 foot jayco with a 2007 model BF ford sedan, and my husband is thinking of a ute for more towing capacity (sedan is 2300Kg) as we have a couple of really long (klms) trips coming up.
If you keep the ute in standard configuration with no modifications you will have no problem with any of the dual cab utes.
When thinking of what one can do to a car, check if the manufacturer has that thing as a spare part or option, if not then generally forget it.
Cheers Neil
Delta18 said
06:54 PM Nov 1, 2013
Kiwi-as wrote:
This discussion is great. I see so many double cabs out there these days towing very sizable vans and wonder when they are going to come unstuck.
I felt I had to bring the problem to the attention of a lot of the new nomads out there.
They are probably quite all right as long as you don't fill up that nice big cargo space, as well as towing that van behind, and slow down when you encounter uneven or rough roads.
They will not come "unstuck" as long as manufacturers specs are not ignored.
Illegal or 'not-recommended' mods (like airbags on a leaf sprung car.) or loading more than recommended could bring any car, for that matter any vehicle be-it car, truck, boat or aircraft "unstuck".
As you said Kiwi-as, don't overload them and, load them wisely. With mine although there is a large tub space I am careful WHERE I place stuff. Heavy things like generator go right to the front of the tub, ie in front of the axles or if necessary in the cabin rear seat floor (cartons of wine bottles ). Only light stuff goes behind the axle.
A Mitsi Triton arrived in caravan park a few days ago with a broken back.
He was following a friend who was in a Pajero, they were both towing Ultimate off road campers.
He had Air Bag assist in the rear axle, and they hit a cattle grid that was a bit exposed.
The 2nd photo is of a Nissan Navara that was up the Cape York last yr.
The local panel shop repairer said he had seen the same thing happening across all the double cab ute range.
People with this vehicle configuration would be well advised to take it easy when they leave the black top, and not load the rear up too much.
-- Edited by Kiwi-as on Thursday 31st of October 2013 10:41:01 AM
Its not just double cabs- My sister broke the chassis on her hilux extra cab in just about the same place, on the other side of Big Red, the big sand dune nr Birdsville.I think it must be a weak point in the design of these type of utes. The single cabs,like mine, put the weight further away from the ends of the chassis, and having airbags only make it worse as they make a pivot point .Its something to ponder if you are thinking of buying that type of vehicle. Bill
-- Edited by bill12 on Thursday 31st of October 2013 06:34:44 AM
As MikeL says, these vehicles are designed for each side of the rear suspension to be supported in two positions. One forward and one aft of the axle.
By fitting Airbags the weight of the rear of the vehicle is supported in one point directly above the axle which the chassis has not been designed for.
Fitting airbags to leaf springs suspensions is fraught with disaster.
Ozjohn.
-- Edited by ozjohn on Thursday 31st of October 2013 09:17:25 AM
Heres a couple of other threads of interest
http://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t54342592/chassis-crack-in-navara/
http://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t54357802/cracked-chassis/
-- Edited by Gerty Dancer on Thursday 31st of October 2013 03:11:37 PM
These chassis' have leaf springs for a reason, and this example (with airbags fitted) is now common across the genre when taken offroad with heavy loads. Good luck getting any support from the airbag manufacturer/fitter. The leaf springs can be engineered to support the load without resorting to bags, which place undue loads on one point in the chassis. Something has to give and as per the pics it's the chassis.
Hi, thanks sooo much for this post as we are looking for a vehicle like these.
For what it is worth, we have an Isuzu DMax double cab & were advised by the caravan manufacturer NOT to fit airbags but rather have the leaf springs reinforced. Good advice I think!
Cheers
Peter & Jan
They can straighten and strengthen it, so the owner has bought another 2nd hand ute a 2wheel drive BT50, and left this morning with his camper, his home base is South Coast NSW.
The vehicle is still under warranty ,with only 30,000 km done, but Mitsubishi are digging their toes in because of the fitment of airbags. The owner said there was no warning in the hand book about fitting of air bags to rear axle.
He has left it all in the hands of his insurance company and lawyer.
My concern is these manufacturers are putting more powerful donks under the bonnet, and increasing the tow ratings, BUT with no corresponding strength in the overall chassis.
I have air bags on my cruiser, and usually have 25 to 30 psi in them when towing. I have heard of people with upwards of 100 psi.
-- Edited by cultana on Thursday 31st of October 2013 10:30:05 PM
Good thread, detail and follow-up by you. Thanks.
Darrell
Yep agree with you here.
REPRINTED FROM ANOTHER RECENT POST OF MINE ON ANOTHER THREAD
This week I met 2 guys with twin cab 4WD's with Firestone airbags at 90PSI,,,, primarily to keep the rig level.
I know my Firestone bags can be pumped up to that pressure but for 4WD's they say,,,,
As a general rule, the Ride-Rite Air Helper Springs will support approximately 40 lbs. of load for each p.s.i. of inflation pressure (per pair). For example, 50 P.S. I. of inflation pressure will support a load of 2000 lbs. per pair of air helper springs.
By my rough calculations this equates to 1636kg of LIFT .
SO HOW MUCH WEIGHT IS IN THE BACK TO NEED THIS and what road quality would you have??? Just curious???
I know 10psi raises my Landcruiser LC79 about 25-30mm at the rear mudflap.
I guess there will be photos of them somewhere soon.
Your choice but I would not want to put my money on that.
Simply go for a legal 2" lift with heavy duty springs on the back to deal with the load. Patrols and cruisers are still trucks how ever much the makers dress them up.
get the springs designed for the load you need.
Generally speaking, car manufacturers spend millions of dollars and thousands of hours in R & D on their vehicles to produce them for a particular purpose within certain parameters. If we start to modify these vehicles we detract from that vehicle's capabilities albeit a small amount. Wider tyres, alloy wheels (especially on commercially designed and 4WD), tyres mounted on the back of vans, lowering suspension, raising suspension, attaching aeroplane wings the list goes on. It's a bit like the S.W.L. on a crane or jack. We might get away with a bit extra, but sooner or later something is going to break, fall over or spin out. This is why mechanics are no longer allowed to lower your suspension by heating the springs or turning your wheels back to front to give you instant 'mags'. Whilst I was a 'Plod' I would attend collisions (almost no such thing as an accident) to be told by the driver that their vehicle was substandard or that the road was wet or various other excuses. My answer was always the same. "Why is that that out of all the vehicles out there, yours is the one that came to grief?"
Why shouldn't standards be freely available, especially when public safety is involved?
G'day Dorian. I'm not too sure but they may be down loadable (if you can find them in the myriad of internet info). All legislation had to be paid for from the government printers but can now be generally found on line for free. I do know that the Victorian design (roadworthy) regs are available and certain vehicle wiring diagrams can also be downloaded.
For what it's worth.
It seems I was wrong regarding ADRs:
www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/adr_online.aspx
I don't know how I got this wrong because it was only recently that I was looking for them. I have a paper set of ADRs that a friend at the RTA photocopied for me some 30 years ago and I was thinking of scanning them for posterity before discarding them.
However, the SAA Wiring Rules (domestic and commercial electrical wiring) still do not appear to be free.
Totally agree. Its becoming fashionable not to take responsibility for one's action.
I felt I had to bring the problem to the attention of a lot of the new nomads out there.
They are probably quite all right as long as you don't fill up that nice big cargo space, as well as towing that van behind, and slow down when you encounter uneven or rough roads.
And a good thing too I reckon. If every Tom, Dick & Neil could get them free and easily, they would think that in minutes they would learn the procedures that electricians take years to learn (properly).
Who knows what disasters would then befall them, or rather someone who later comes in contact with their work.
Cheers Neil
If you keep the ute in standard configuration with no modifications you will have no problem with any of the dual cab utes.
When thinking of what one can do to a car, check if the manufacturer has that thing as a spare part or option, if not then generally forget it.
Cheers Neil
They will not come "unstuck" as long as manufacturers specs are not ignored.
Illegal or 'not-recommended' mods (like airbags on a leaf sprung car.) or loading more than recommended could bring any car, for that matter any vehicle be-it car, truck, boat or aircraft "unstuck".
As you said Kiwi-as, don't overload them and, load them wisely. With mine although there is a large tub space I am careful WHERE I place stuff. Heavy things like generator go right to the front of the tub, ie in front of the axles or if necessary in the cabin rear seat floor (cartons of wine bottles
). Only light stuff goes behind the axle.
Cheers Neil