Sorry, I tried to find the previous thread but couldn't locate it, hopefully the original poster will see this and think again.
The original thread was discussing the virtues of buying, a demountable, motorhome, caravan or a pre-owned Ex-Rental vehiclethat had already been converted and, since there are already numerous topics relating to cracked chassis's on several vehicle model types at the moment, I thought this may be of interest to anybody considering anything that "might JUST be okay!!"
These are the facts...........
Mitsubishi Triton 4x4
Standard Factory Suspension
Approved & Plated After Market Body addition
NO Airbags
Vehicle Weighed & Found To Be Within Operating Weight Limits
Body Measured & Found To Be Within Specification
Recovered from a location that would not be considered "abnormal" for a 4x4 vehicle
The Unkown facts..........
If the vehicle was recovered from the area/terrain where the crack and eventual snapping occured?
Speed/terrain at the time of incident?
How much gear had been removed and hidden in the bushes!!?? (tongue in cheek before somebody mentions it) UNLIKELY as the foreign occupiers were recovered with the vehicle and wouldn't dump personal belongings as they would be none the wiser!!
Were the cracks present before the vehicle entered the GRR
Towed in off of the Gibb River Road, just North of Drysdale Campground.
I amd just setting out what is known before all of the usual speculations or questions are raised, this is not my vehicle, I inspected it at the workshop I work in after it was towed in to us.
My Point Being??
Manufacturers can produce vehicles, body builders can tinker and adapt within the limits, but there is never going to be an answers for how a vehicle is operated, at what speed, under what conditions, etc....etc....etc...
BUT, purchasing a vehicle that "MIGHT" just be okay, is taking a ver serious risk. This vehicle ticks all the boxes as far as we can tell.
The picture of the main vehicle you will notice have been "paint-shopped" to protect the company concerned, it wasn't meant to be a neat job!!
Enjoy.......................
-- Edited by Mark on Monday 15th of July 2013 10:11:44 PM
WE met a guy recently who had a van made by same manufacturer as ours,,, not our model but the top of the range model, "off roader."
He complained bitterly about all the problems, broken this, broken that, chassis rail bent at A frame/body intersection, it went on an on. He complianed about how the manufacturer didn't want to know about his problems and couldn't understand how our A frame after 6 years and heaps of off road work (some very rough) wasn't bent.
Eventually he coughed up that he "did" the Gibb River and Cape York road at 90-95kph with his yew bewt V8..
__________________
Why is it so? Professor Julius Sumner Miller, a profound influence on my life, who explained science to us on TV in the 60's.
Thanks for your comments, it really does confirm and support what I am trying to get across.
I get really p155ed off when people jump on the bandwagon about chassis failures, it's all about bagging the manufacturer when in actual fact it is about how the vehicle has been operated. When I read about people playing around with 300-400 kgs loads, and I know from personal experience that as a serious full time traveller the weight creeps up and anything between 400>>500kgs as additional load is not unrealistic, then we have to take it on the chin that we are operatring outside of the specifications. There are people on this forum playing around with much lesser tolerences................. VERY dangerous!!
Tow bars are the same, okay it may be a Haymen Reece, great, wonderful, good on ya, and everything else positive, but, what it is attached to is the key and most important part of the whole scenario, just because you have a hitch/bar that can pull 3000kgs means nothing if the chassis it is attached to is not designed for that amount of stress................. expect trouble!!
There are currently a number of recalls by various manufacturers about cracks on chassis's where tow bars have been fitted, but this is because the mounting of the AFTERMARKET equipment to the vehicles ORIGINAL components was not correct, nothing to do with the vehicle, it's the aftermarket company that was entrusted to fit parts to your vehicle that have got it wrong and that's why the vehicle manufacturer is not interested.
It really does come down to buyer/user beware, do your homework and don't believe everything that a salesman tells you!!
My opinion for what it is worth.
-- Edited by Mark on Tuesday 16th of July 2013 09:44:49 PM
__________________
Mark & Linda
A man who asks a question is a fool for five minutes, but ask no questions and your a fool for life!!
We have just found our XTrail had a cracked chassis. We have owned it since new (2005), we have not been on the Gibb River Rd or any road like it, our van is less than 1000kg and most of our travel has been on black top - and it still cracked. Our brother in law reckons it's because a piece is not put between the bolt and chassis as it is 'too hard' plus most chassis steel is too thin. He says some of the Asian assembled cars will be even worse as their steel has bits of plastic and other rubbish in it. I'm pleased to see the advice 'do your homework'. We did ours but didn't know about 'thin steel' used in chassis building or 'shonky' installation habits. We didn't find the cracks because they were under the towbar - even the mechanics had missed it twice. So, yes, get a really good inspection before buying.
You are exactly right Mark. Add ons/extras mount up very quickly. I saw this a lot where van/boats/trailers had 'extras' put on either by the dealer or by the owner. Extra spare tyres, extra gas bottle, larger water tanks etc. Similarly some tradies would deck out their (vans particularly) with extra tool boxes/shelving/carry racks. Quite often these vehicles had almost reached their load limits before adding fuel/water/food/bedding/tools not to mention 4 to 5 vehicle occupants. Any of us can probably get away with overloading for some time; but add some rough roads or higher speeds and something's going to give. One of my all time favourites are those who fit extra spares or gas bottle on the rear of their vans. Weight at this point is actually multipled many times due to something called 'pendulum effect'. (Collyn RIVERS has some interesting comments on this.)
I pulled up a car one day that appeared to have broken/no shock absorbers. The car was bouncing like one of those soft suspension '70's American cars. The car was an Australia built large sedan with full frame chassis and running LT tyres and a very loose rear bench seat (frequently removed/replaced). Whilst testing it I found that the shockers and springs were within legal limits but the car still 'bounced'. It turned out there was a split in the chassis rail that was opening/closing like a hinge. The mediterrenean origins driver had been using the car to transport fruit and veg to market each morning. Apparently his large boot and back seat were usually full of boxed produce which (when we checked his stall) weighed anything up to 3 tonnes. Eventually metal fatigue had set in. Load limits to each vehicle including trailers are on (Vic) Police and VicRoads computers. Every set of 'usuals' (car rego/owner/address) brought up by radio or on board GUI/VDU details the tare and gross, passenger capacity, colour, engine# and a raft of info. Much of this info is replicated on a rego renewal sent to the owner, yet many drivers/owners ignore it. Vic 'Plods' use a bit of discretion but there is a line.
You are exactly right Mark. Add ons/extras mount up very quickly. I saw this a lot where van/boats/trailers had 'extras' put on either by the dealer or by the owner. Extra spare tyres, extra gas bottle, larger water tanks etc. Similarly some tradies would deck out their (vans particularly) with extra tool boxes/shelving/carry racks. Quite often these vehicles had almost reached their load limits before adding fuel/water/food/bedding/tools not to mention 4 to 5 vehicle occupants. Any of us can probably get away with overloading for some time; but add some rough roads or higher speeds and something's going to give. One of my all time favourites are those who fit extra spares or gas bottle on the rear of their vans. Weight at this point is actually multipled many times due to something called 'pendulum effect'. (Collyn RIVERS has some interesting comments on this.)
I pulled up a car one day that appeared to have broken/no shock absorbers. The car was bouncing like one of those soft suspension '70's American cars. The car was an Australia built large sedan with full frame chassis and running LT tyres and a very loose rear bench seat (frequently removed/replaced). Whilst testing it I found that the shockers and springs were within legal limits but the car still 'bounced'. It turned out there was a split in the chassis rail that was opening/closing like a hinge. The mediterrenean origins driver had been using the car to transport fruit and veg to market each morning. Apparently his large boot and back seat were usually full of boxed produce which (when we checked his stall) weighed anything up to 3 tonnes. Eventually metal fatigue had set in. Load limits to each vehicle including trailers are on (Vic) Police and VicRoads computers. Every set of 'usuals' (car rego/owner/address) brought up by radio or on board GUI/VDU details the tare and gross, passenger capacity, colour, engine# and a raft of info. Much of this info is replicated on a rego renewal sent to the owner, yet many drivers/owners ignore it. Vic 'Plods' use a bit of discretion but there is a line.
You make a very good point about over loading, and for people towing large vans with high ball weights it is so easy to overload your towing vehicle without realising you are doing it. Take for example someone towing with a 200 Series Sahara, they have a kerb weight if 2,720kg, and a GVM of 3,350KG, that leaves a total payload of 630Kg
630 Kg is not much when you consider the weight of a full tank of fuel (135kg), a driver and passenger (150Kg), the weight of the Engel, and some luggage and fittings (say 150kg), a roof rack with a spare wheel (60Kg). We wont worry about other accessories like a bull bar, etc. Now you can legally handle the ball weight of a large box trailer (135Kg MAX).
The formula varies by manufacturer and model, but the vehicles that can handle a decent ball weight when typically loaded are few and far between.
Hi Plendo
Yep.......... and as I have said a few times, I'm not proud of it, but I am heavy!! I have a 200 series and make use of every ounce and more available, but, I do it with prior knowledge and acceptance of the consequence should it all go wrong and i end up with a chassis problem. I find it so frustrating that people are embarking into the nomadic life and rely upon what they are told by salesmen as being sacrosanct and being caught up in the moment "the purchase", and then God forbid, when it goes wromg they can't understand what went wrong. That's why I beat the drum!!
The other thing that concerns me greatly is the latest chassis designs. Large curvatures to enable higher seating position at the back means more stress on the apex of the curve when loaded, just look at the pictures at the beginning of the post. Oh well..................... Another Vino is called for................ Cheers.................
Thanks for your added support and very "simple" (easy, straight-forward) explanation of additional weight. Extra spare wheel ................ LOL................. my Mrs couldn't believe what a rim and tyre weighed and we've got alloy's!!
TTFN
Mark
(Edit............ Changed font colour)
-- Edited by Mark on Friday 19th of July 2013 11:29:36 PM
__________________
Mark & Linda
A man who asks a question is a fool for five minutes, but ask no questions and your a fool for life!!
We have just found our XTrail had a cracked chassis. We have owned it since new (2005), we have not been on the Gibb River Rd or any road like it, our van is less than 1000kg and most of our travel has been on black top - and it still cracked. Our brother in law reckons it's because a piece is not put between the bolt and chassis as it is 'too hard' plus most chassis steel is too thin. He says some of the Asian assembled cars will be even worse as their steel has bits of plastic and other rubbish in it. I'm pleased to see the advice 'do your homework'. We did ours but didn't know about 'thin steel' used in chassis building or 'shonky' installation habits. We didn't find the cracks because they were under the towbar - even the mechanics had missed it twice. So, yes, get a really good inspection before buying.
Sorry neilnruth,
Didn't mean to ignore your reply.
You mentioned in your post about a "piece" that wasn't put in because it was too hard!!................. How VERY true is that!!
Only today, we have replaced the complete rear bumber that has twin spare wheel carriers (A well know after market accessory company's product) on a vehicle where the customer complained that the new bumper had sagged over a two month period and was rubbing against the origianal bodywork. Low and behold we find............. TWO mounting points have not been drilled and had the bolts put in because............. IT WAS TOO HARD!!! the end result is that the rest of the frame has bent and only stopped bending when it reached the original bodywork.
I'm sorry, but there needs to be a law that prevents these installation CLOWNS being in business, it is absolutley bloody disgraceful and leaves a bad taste in the mouth, it's no wonder that people have little faith or much of a good word for workshops, even those that are repairing all of these wrongs. I worked on a Land Rover yesterday, problem was that the vehicle would drive okay and then cut out, then it would drive okay and then cut out, dropped the new "YOU BEUT" long range tank and found.................... A fuel line crimped/trapped between the tank and the chassis. It really does make you wonder about how much care people take with our treasured possessions doesn't it.??
Hope you get your problem resolved.
Fortunately a lot of these problems (small cracks) can be plated over which strengthens everything up again. I'm sure there are some better placed Nomads on the forum that can explain about chassis welding, stitching etc,
anyway, good luck.
Mark
__________________
Mark & Linda
A man who asks a question is a fool for five minutes, but ask no questions and your a fool for life!!
You make a very good point about over loading, and for people towing large vans with high ball weights it is so easy to overload your towing vehicle without realising you are doing it. Take for example someone towing with a 200 Series Sahara, they have a kerb weight if 2,720kg, and a GVM of 3,350KG, that leaves a total payload of 630Kg
630 Kg is not much when you consider the weight of a full tank of fuel (135kg), a driver and passenger (150Kg), the weight of the Engel, and some luggage and fittings (say 150kg), a roof rack with a spare wheel (60Kg). We wont worry about other accessories like a bull bar, etc. Now you can legally handle the ball weight of a large box trailer (135Kg MAX).
The formula varies by manufacturer and model, but the vehicles that can handle a decent ball weight when typically loaded are few and far between.
Some of my friends work for a business that purchases new vehicles and tests them over an extended period of time. The stories I hear about poor design and construction (these guys are experts) across well known, and well respected brands and models, from both Asia and Europe.
Their advice buy the best vehicle you can afford, then make damned sure you stay well within the manufacturers limits. This certainly influenced what I bought as a tow vehicle (it was one of the few vehicles that was specifically designed to tow, and that did not have significant issues).
I am no expert, but almost every rig I see has issues in how it is set up. It is scary when you consider that they are all just accidents waiting to happen.
LOL..................... (in agreement, not because it is funny!!)
In a previous life I did some undercover work and did some secret filming of how vehicles were being operated after we suspected the customers drivers (who was bitching and moaning about snapped steering box shafts) were found to be abusing the vehicles, it went to court and the manufacturer that I worked for won. The judge, who admitted he knew nothing about vehicle design and construction, said
"he had never witnessed such a flagrant abuse of the vehicle - case dismissed"
Same applies here, simples maths will tell anybody with a modicum of sense that some things ae just not meant to be!!
Please folks, think carefully.............
I'll leave it there!!
Regards
Mark
__________________
Mark & Linda
A man who asks a question is a fool for five minutes, but ask no questions and your a fool for life!!
i herd of a problem with a new well known brand and the guy was told the new vehicles arnt designed to carry that weight all the time . wat a load of crock if it cancarry 350 kgs it shouldn't matter if it was there 5 mins or 5 mths .
like my new colorado put the van on the back 240 ks on the draw bar and it blinds the on coming traffic when towing at night ( i have a set of drawbar scales ) it goes down 28 ml at the back. so how much is it going to go down with 350 hanging there . guess what holdens quick fix was . wind the headlight down . because its when towing or loaded the car just dosnt sit rite deffectable un roadworthy . but it now unroad worthy because the lights arnt adjusted correct to low unloaded . they chipped me about the weight but i shot him down because i have the scales . and then asked if i had the wdh set rite . really i dont look that dum and i dont want air bags (jim knows the deal) so the saga will go on i cant aford to fight them but i will make a lot of noise .
then to top it of some chick rang and asked if i was happy with the service i had done well i let fly haha told her i didnt like the oil spillage every where okok i can hear the knockers but to have led the life like i did with i must say no regrets only not meeting della earlier in life. i love my car its the first time in my life i could ever think of buying a new car and do what we have planed . i then proceeded to tell her about my towing concerns and told her it wasnt fixed only masked and said holden australia should fix the problem .
i herd of a problem with a new well known brand and the guy was told the new vehicles arnt designed to carry that weight all the time . wat a load of crock if it cancarry 350 kgs it shouldn't matter if it was there 5 mins or 5 mths .
like my new colorado put the van on the back 240 ks on the draw bar and it blinds the on coming traffic when towing at night ( i have a set of drawbar scales ) it goes down 28 ml at the back. so how much is it going to go down with 350 hanging there . guess what holdens quick fix was . wind the headlight down . because its when towing or loaded the car just dosnt sit rite deffectable un roadworthy . but it now unroad worthy because the lights arnt adjusted correct to low unloaded . they chipped me about the weight but i shot him down because i have the scales . and then asked if i had the wdh set rite . really i dont look that dum and i dont want air bags (jim knows the deal) so the saga will go on i cant aford to fight them but i will make a lot of noise .
then to top it of some chick rang and asked if i was happy with the service i had done well i let fly haha told her i didnt like the oil spillage every where okok i can hear the knockers but to have led the life like i did with i must say no regrets only not meeting della earlier in life. i love my car its the first time in my life i could ever think of buying a new car and do what we have planed . i then proceeded to tell her about my towing concerns and told her it wasnt fixed only masked and said holden australia should fix the problem .
now waiting for a reply
dibs
G'Day I agree Holden should be able to help, buth was just wondering if you have tried using a weight distibution hitch, if you have sorry Cheers Andrew
i got em crash if i put any more weight on em i recon they would have broken.
got a call from holden aust on fri there looking into it more details on wed
Dibs. On page 140 of the Colorado handbook it says to use "Load distribution hitch if the vehicle attitude is compromised" It also has some B.S. that says "or the maximum ball load is exceeded. But that's another story that I'm in talks with Holden's technical department about. They will not admit that that statement is incorrect and if followed would be illegal.
The ball weigh of my van is 270Kg and with a HR WDH the Collie sits flat and tows terrific. Ozjohn.
__________________
Retired Engineer, Ex Park Owner & Caravan Consultant. Holden 2.8 Colorado - Roma Elegance 17'6" Pop Top. Location: Mornington Peninsula Vic.
Mark, sorry I've been off forum for a few weeks and didn't see your reply.
Yes, the cracks in our chassis were fixed at the local engineering workshop. All tell me, the wife, that everything is now much stronger. Why couldn't it be 'much stronger' before and not let it happen?
Leaving bits off 'because it's too hard' happens in all industries it seems. Our neighbour had a new wood heater installed. After they had gone, they found the levelling wedges which should have been installed at the back so the heater didn't move when the door was opened and closed (stiff to do when brand new) - oh, we forgot was the answer. Neighbour ended up doing the job a different way and there's no way it will move. Just slack workmanship though. Workmanship you are supposedly paying for.
Dibs. On page 140 of the Colorado handbook it says to use "Load distribution hitch if the vehicle attitude is compromised" It also has some B.S. that says "or the maximum ball load is exceeded. But that's another story that I'm in talks with Holden's technical department about. They will not admit that that statement is incorrect and if followed would be illegal.
The ball weigh of my van is 270Kg and with a HR WDH the Collie sits flat and tows terrific. Ozjohn.
Hi John I suspect that Holden will say they are referring to dynamic ball weight not static ball weight.
Dynamic ball weight is impossible for us to calculate as you need to be driving along the road with sensors to guage it. When you go through dips and washaways, your ball weight exerted on the vehicle can be very excessive. You can feel it sometimes when in a floodway or similar that has a sharpish curve upwards.
So in "real life situations" ballweight is very regularly exceeded. Years ago I worked for an Engineer who enlightened me on things "dynamic", ie this instance and dynamic stability of caravans and heavy vehicles in various load and braking configurations.
Agree it needs clarification.
__________________
Why is it so? Professor Julius Sumner Miller, a profound influence on my life, who explained science to us on TV in the 60's.
This week I met 2 guys with twin cab 4WD's with Firestone airbags at 90PSI,,,, primarily to keep the rig level.
I know my Firestone bags can be pumped up to that pressure but for 4WD's they say,,,,
As a general rule, the Ride-Rite Air Helper Springs will support approximately 40
lbs. of load for each p.s.i. of inflation pressure (per pair). For example, 50 P.S. I. of inflation pressure will support
a load of 2000 lbs. per pair of air helper springs.
By my rough calculations this equates to 1636kg of LIFT . SO HOW MUCH WEIGHT IS IN THE BACK TO NEED THIS and what road quality would you have??? Just curious???
I know 10psi raises my Landcruiser LC79 about 25-30mm at the rear mudflap.
I guess there will be photos of them somewhere soon.
-- Edited by Baz421 on Thursday 8th of August 2013 09:23:00 PM
__________________
Why is it so? Professor Julius Sumner Miller, a profound influence on my life, who explained science to us on TV in the 60's.
got a call from holden today they said that its setup for 3500 ks or 3.5 tonne , 350 kgs on the ball so im going to do a vidieo of when i put the van with how much it sags and how many links i have to use on the whd i might even get my sparky here with his headlight aligner and send it to them. i even rang another dealer and asked what the tow pack was in a colorado thunder he said its just a towbar and itold him my story he was a bit uneasy so to speek and didint realy know what to say. but my argument is with a full load in the ute and no trailer what will i hook the whd up to . i recon with that much weight on the whd it will rip out the tow bar .
bit of an update now holden are back paddling a bit want front axle weight rear axle weight cvan weight drawbar weight haha i even told him i will give them a vidieo of the van going on sagging to it lowest of form dunno if i will beat them unity water didnt but hells bells im gunna make a lot of noise .
Holden also claim their Colorado tow bar conforms to the ADR 62/0. While it is able to tow 3500Kg with a ball Mass of 350Kg, I don't believe that it fully complies with the requirements of ADR62/01 in respect of the tow bar identification. OJ
-- Edited by ozjohn on Wednesday 4th of September 2013 12:50:19 PM
__________________
Retired Engineer, Ex Park Owner & Caravan Consultant. Holden 2.8 Colorado - Roma Elegance 17'6" Pop Top. Location: Mornington Peninsula Vic.
(in agreement, not because it is funny!!)
