Weights

kgarnett · Senior Member

RE: Weights

yobarr · Guru

montie wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
kgarnett wrote:
Gross Combination Mass (GCM) is a RATING and is defined in Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule - Definitions and Vehicle Categories) 2005,

GROSS COMBINATION MASS - value specified for the vehicle by the Manufacturer as being the maximum of the sum of the Gross Vehicle Mass of the drawing vehicle plus the sum of the Axle Loads of any vehicle capable of being drawn as a trailer.
GCM is not as defined below which also incorrectly implies it an actual weight that can be measured:

Ken

-- Edited by kgarnett on Thursday 26th of May 2022 10:23:55 AM
Umm, it doesn't imply it isn't a rating either. Does it? It's a simple definition.

Yes it is a rating. But if you weigh your van and car and add them together it is your GCM on the day, is it not? One is a rating, the other is your current GCM.

I'm not confused at all. You are.

Like I said, some just want to be heard or perhaps get clicks
That is incorrect and misleading.
You are confused...if you weigh your tug and your van that is your measured weight on the day.
Your GCM rating, which cannot be weighed is as you state 5 tonne.

Thanks Montie, for your support. When weights are explained clearly and concisely I'm sure that most members, the quiet majority, understand and learn, but sometimes I feel that I'm beating my head against a brick wall because others can not, do not, or seem not to want to understand. Tried rote learning, but that too seems not to work. C'est la vie. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 26th of May 2022 09:24:41 PM

yobarr · Guru

kgarnett wrote:
Hi Oldbloke,

You seem to have fallen afoul as many other have of not understanding that the Road Authorities have their own definitions of what Gross, Aggregate etc mean.
You stated:
Yes it is a rating. But if you weigh your van and car and add them together it is your GCM on the day, is it not? One is a rating, the other is your current GCM.
Incorrect There is no current GCM ! There is only one GCM and that is the one as defined as a rating under the Aust Road Rules. What you weigh and add together is just that: ie the Combined Weight not the GCM which is a rating stipulated by the manufacturer which must not be exceeded
You asked a question:
My ute has a rated GCM of 5t.

I weigh the ute = 2.5t
I weigh the van = 2.0t

I add 2.5t + 2.0t = 4.5t what am I?

I think its my current GCM
In answer to the your question, in common language terms the answer would be that your GCM is 4.5t.

Unfortunately as far as the Road Authorities and Aust Design Rules Definitions is concerned that is not the case. Your GCM is a rating (maximum value) defined by the manufacturer of your vehicle not by what you weigh.
What you have measured is the combined weight of your ute and van NOT the GCM of the combination. (as ridiculous as it may be because because it contravenes common usage of language but for as far as Road Authorities are concerned thay have a legally defined meaning in relation to Road Rules.)
In summary as far as the Road Rules are concerned Gross Combination Mass (GCM) is a rating and as such can't be measured (ie weighed) it is just a weight value that should not be exceeded.
(NB I use the terms weight and mass somewhat interchangebly - but do know the difference)

Ken

Fantastic post Ken, where everything is clearly explained in a way that can be easily understood. Perhaps now we can look forward to not being consistently and persistently challenged by the non-believers? Thanks again. Cheers

KevinJ · Senior Member

The actual weight of the vehicle plus van is compared to the GCM rating allowed. You can't exceed the GCM.

The actual speed you are travelling is compared with the speed limit in the area. You can't exceed the speed limit.

landy · Guru

KevinJ wrote:

The actual weight of the vehicle plus van is compared to the GCM rating allowed. You can't exceed the GCM.
The actual speed you are travelling is compared with the speed limit in the area. You can't exceed the speed limit.

Spot on Kevin and a 100 kph speed limit will not change to 90 kph just because you are only travailing at 90. Although I have seen many people try to change a 100 limit to 110.
Landy

watsea · Guru

I think there would be greater understanding and less discussion in these type of forums if the terminology and abbreviation for a rating carried the word rating and the "R" always. eg Gros Combined Mass Rating, GCMR, Aggregate Trailer Mass Rating, ATMR. The yanks seem to use the "R" sometimes and other times not.

yobarr · Guru

watsea wrote:
I think there would be greater understanding and less discussion in these type of forums if the terminology and abbreviation for a rating carried the word rating and the "R" always. eg Gros Combined Mass Rating, GCMR, Aggregate Trailer Mass Rating, ATMR. The yanks seem to use the "R" sometimes and other times not.

Nice idea Ted, but I fear that those who refuse to understand the simple "GCM" probably would refuse to understand "GCMR"? No matter how clearly things are explained, or how many times that is done, there still appear to be some who simply refuse to learn. Cheers

oldbloke · Guru

yobarr wrote:
watsea wrote:
I think there would be greater understanding and less discussion in these type of forums if the terminology and abbreviation for a rating carried the word rating and the "R" always. eg Gros Combined Mass Rating, GCMR, Aggregate Trailer Mass Rating, ATMR. The yanks seem to use the "R" sometimes and other times not.
Nice idea Ted, but I fear that those who refuse to understand the simple "GCM" probably would refuse to understand "GCMR"? No matter how clearly things are explained, or how many times that is done, there still appear to be some who simply refuse to learn. Cheers

In your words " pathetic" you know that is not correct. Nobody is refusing to understand GCM rating.

You are refusing to understand that GCM is also the result of weighing the van & tug.

If the result is not you ACTUAL GCM, what is it?

KevinJ · Senior Member

GCM is set based on the vehicle and what the engineers believe to be a safe weight to tow. At that stage they dont know what van you will tow so it cant have anything to do with weighing the van.

yobarr · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
watsea wrote:
I think there would be greater understanding and less discussion in these type of forums if the terminology and abbreviation for a rating carried the word rating and the "R" always. eg Gros Combined Mass Rating, GCMR, Aggregate Trailer Mass Rating, ATMR. The yanks seem to use the "R" sometimes and other times not.
Nice idea Ted, but I fear that those who refuse to understand the simple "GCM" probably would refuse to understand "GCMR"? No matter how clearly things are explained, or how many times that is done, there still appear to be some who simply refuse to learn. Cheers
In your words " pathetic" you know that is not correct. Nobody is refusing to understand GCM rating.
You are refusing to understand that GCM is also the result of weighing the van & tug.

If the result is not you ACTUAL GCM, what is it?

This is becoming ridiculous. You have acknowledged that GCM is a 'rating' , no more, but you then refuse to understand what 'rating' means. It's a figure SET by the manufacturer. What you're muttering about is your vehicle's weight. Landy, KevinJ and Ken Garnett have clearly explained below how that works and if you still refuse to understand I can only conclude, as I have suspected for some time, that you are being mischievous. Now, there's your 'Out'. You could now claim that that is the case, you were simply stirring us up, and that you actually do understand, and we all could be happy? But I doubt it. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 27th of May 2022 11:15:38 AM

montie · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
watsea wrote:
I think there would be greater understanding and less discussion in these type of forums if the terminology and abbreviation for a rating carried the word rating and the "R" always. eg Gros Combined Mass Rating, GCMR, Aggregate Trailer Mass Rating, ATMR. The yanks seem to use the "R" sometimes and other times not.
Nice idea Ted, but I fear that those who refuse to understand the simple "GCM" probably would refuse to understand "GCMR"? No matter how clearly things are explained, or how many times that is done, there still appear to be some who simply refuse to learn. Cheers
In your words " pathetic" you know that is not correct. Nobody is refusing to understand GCM rating.
You are refusing to understand that GCM is also the result of weighing the van & tug.

If the result is not you ACTUAL GCM, what is it?
It is the measured weight of your combination which is compared to the GCM rating to determine if you are legal. There is no such thing as "Actual GCM"
There is only GCM rating and measured weight.

montie · Guru

KevinJ wrote:
GCM is set based on the vehicle and what the engineers believe to be a safe weight to tow. At that stage they dont know what van you will tow so it cant have anything to do with weighing the van.

GCM or Gross Combination Mass is the maximum the coupled combination can weigh legally.

Your van/tug combination's measured weight must not legally exceed the lesser of the following:

a) The tug manufacturer's rating.

b) Tug GVM plus Van ATM minus ball weight. Put simply GVM+GTM.

Nothing to do with towing capacity.

oldbloke · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
I'm certainly not confused.

Yoborr,

YOU are being mischievous, as is your form. Not me mate.

Look what I posted early in the thread, mate.

As usual you like to start arguments. Being the troll/keyboard warrior that you are.

I simply posted a "definition" I didn't state it was or was not a rating. BUT you like to suggest otherwise, as usual.

It's odd how almost every thread that you post in gets locked, isn't it yoborr. I guess this will be next. Just one of many derailed by yourself. This of course defeats the purpose of the forum. Helping people.

You are so narrow in your thinking regarding this definition and weights in general.

You just don't understand that words can have different meanings or used in a couple of contexts do you.

Not like the forum you got the big A from. Very sensible over there.

I'll post the definitions again, just for you.

Cheers OB. ;)

KevinJ · Senior Member

montie wrote:
KevinJ wrote:
GCM is set based on the vehicle and what the engineers believe to be a safe weight to tow. At that stage they dont know what van you will tow so it cant have anything to do with weighing the van.
GCM or Gross Combination Mass is the maximum the coupled combination can weigh legally.
Your van/tug combination's measured weight must not legally exceed the lesser of the following:
a) The tug manufacturer's rating.
b) Tug GVM plus Van ATM minus ball weight. Put simply GVM+GTM.

Nothing to do with towing capacity.

Very true Montie. My point was that GCM was set without knowing anything about any particular van.

oldbloke · Guru

montie wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
watsea wrote:
I think there would be greater understanding and less discussion in these type of forums if the terminology and abbreviation for a rating carried the word rating and the "R" always. eg Gros Combined Mass Rating, GCMR, Aggregate Trailer Mass Rating, ATMR. The yanks seem to use the "R" sometimes and other times not.
Nice idea Ted, but I fear that those who refuse to understand the simple "GCM" probably would refuse to understand "GCMR"? No matter how clearly things are explained, or how many times that is done, there still appear to be some who simply refuse to learn. Cheers
In your words " pathetic" you know that is not correct. Nobody is refusing to understand GCM rating.
You are refusing to understand that GCM is also the result of weighing the van & tug.

If the result is not you ACTUAL GCM, what is it?
It is the measured weight of your combination which is compared to the GCM rating to determine if you are legal. There is no such thing as "Actual GCM"
There is only GCM rating and measured weight.

It may not be a legal term but it works for me. And I'll bet there are plenty our there who agree. It's just a matter of terminology. Seems some can't think out of the box.

Cheers ;) OB

montie · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
montie wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
watsea wrote:
I think there would be greater understanding and less discussion in these type of forums if the terminology and abbreviation for a rating carried the word rating and the "R" always. eg Gros Combined Mass Rating, GCMR, Aggregate Trailer Mass Rating, ATMR. The yanks seem to use the "R" sometimes and other times not.
Nice idea Ted, but I fear that those who refuse to understand the simple "GCM" probably would refuse to understand "GCMR"? No matter how clearly things are explained, or how many times that is done, there still appear to be some who simply refuse to learn. Cheers
In your words " pathetic" you know that is not correct. Nobody is refusing to understand GCM rating.
You are refusing to understand that GCM is also the result of weighing the van & tug.

If the result is not you ACTUAL GCM, what is it?
It is the measured weight of your combination which is compared to the GCM rating to determine if you are legal. There is no such thing as "Actual GCM"
There is only GCM rating and measured weight.

It may not be a legal term but it works for me. And I'll bet there are plenty our there who agree. It's just a matter of terminology. Seems some can't think out of the box.

Cheers ;) OB

I've explained it to you in the simplest way possible.....not much more I can do.

KJB · Guru

montie wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
montie wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
watsea wrote:
I think there would be greater understanding and less discussion in these type of forums if the terminology and abbreviation for a rating carried the word rating and the "R" always. eg Gros Combined Mass Rating, GCMR, Aggregate Trailer Mass Rating, ATMR. The yanks seem to use the "R" sometimes and other times not.
Nice idea Ted, but I fear that those who refuse to understand the simple "GCM" probably would refuse to understand "GCMR"? No matter how clearly things are explained, or how many times that is done, there still appear to be some who simply refuse to learn. Cheers
In your words " pathetic" you know that is not correct. Nobody is refusing to understand GCM rating.
You are refusing to understand that GCM is also the result of weighing the van & tug.

If the result is not you ACTUAL GCM, what is it?
It is the measured weight of your combination which is compared to the GCM rating to determine if you are legal. There is no such thing as "Actual GCM"
There is only GCM rating and measured weight.

It may not be a legal term but it works for me. And I'll bet there are plenty our there who agree. It's just a matter of terminology. Seems some can't think out of the box.

Cheers ;) OB
I've explained it to you in the simplest way possible.....not much more I can do.

This is has become ridiculous/childish. It is the Age Old problem - "You can lead a horse to water etc........." Best to forget it and get on with life. KB

kgarnett · Senior Member

Just to add to the confusion here is an extract from this NSW Gov site " https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/stayingsafe/drivers/caravan-safety/weighing.html"

Gross Combined Mass (GCM) is the maximum mass set by your tow vehicle's manufacturer and refers to the maximum combined mass of your loaded tow vehicle and your loaded caravan hitched together. Your vehicle manufacturers guide will provide you with the GCM of your tow vehicle. To measure the GCM, weigh your fully loaded towing vehicle hitched to your fully loaded caravan. Legally, you must not exceed the specified GCM capacity of your vehicle.

In one sentence it states that :

the vehicle manufacturers guide will provide you with the GCM of your tow vehicle.

and in the next sentence it states

To measure the GCM, weigh your fully loaded towing vehicle hitched to your fully loaded caravan

Logically, if the manufactuer has provided you with the GCM then there is no need to measure since it has already been provided and is invariate.

Even the authorities add to the confusion !!

Ken

-- Edited by kgarnett on Friday 27th of May 2022 12:45:21 PM

Are We Lost · Guru

yobarr wrote:

This is becoming ridiculous. ........ Landy, KevinJ and Ken Garnett have clearly explained below how that works .......

Add KJB, Montie and my name to that list. That's seven saying you (Oldbloke) are wrong.

There is only one answer to the question "What is my GCM?", and that is the rating. The same applies to ATM. It is a rating only, although you often see people incorrectly referring to it as the actual weight.

But, as kgarnett posted, the NSW site makes the same mistake.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 27th of May 2022 12:53:02 PM

yobarr · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
yobarr wrote:

This is becoming ridiculous. ........ Landy, KevinJ and Ken Garnett have clearly explained below how that works .......
Add KJB, Montie and my name to that list. That's seven saying you (Oldbloke) are wrong.
There is only one answer to the question "What is my GCM?", and that is the rating. The same applies to ATM. It is a rating only, although you often see people incorrectly referring to it as the actual weight.
But, as kgarnett posted, the NSW site makes the same mistake.

Thanks Stephen, for your support. For some people, ignorance is their biggest asset. Cheers

Bobdown · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
montie wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
watsea wrote:
I think there would be greater understanding and less discussion in these type of forums if the terminology and abbreviation for a rating carried the word rating and the "R" always. eg Gros Combined Mass Rating, GCMR, Aggregate Trailer Mass Rating, ATMR. The yanks seem to use the "R" sometimes and other times not.
Nice idea Ted, but I fear that those who refuse to understand the simple "GCM" probably would refuse to understand "GCMR"? No matter how clearly things are explained, or how many times that is done, there still appear to be some who simply refuse to learn. Cheers
In your words " pathetic" you know that is not correct. Nobody is refusing to understand GCM rating.
You are refusing to understand that GCM is also the result of weighing the van & tug.

If the result is not you ACTUAL GCM, what is it?
It is the measured weight of your combination which is compared to the GCM rating to determine if you are legal. There is no such thing as "Actual GCM"
There is only GCM rating and measured weight.

It may not be a legal term but it works for me. And I'll bet there are plenty our there who agree. It's just a matter of terminology. Seems some can't think out of the box.

Cheers ;) OB

GCM might be a manufacturers rating, but what is wrong with saying and knowing your combined weight of your van and tug, at least you will know if you are under the supposed rating.

Might call it Actual Combined Weight from now on OB............ACW it is.

Cheers Bob

bratboy · Veteran Member

Well said Bob , everyone knows that there is a GCM rating on there vehicle but it also a very common practice to refer to your total overall weight as your GCM . To me this whole thread has been about arguing semantics .

oldbloke · Guru

Thanks Bob and Batboy. At least a few see the light. And I'm sure most do.

Some just argue for the sake of it.

Edit: I really like Actual Combined Weight. (ACW). It's very clear and would be understandable by the newby.

-- Edited by oldbloke on Friday 27th of May 2022 03:01:05 PM

Bill B · Guru

oldbloke wrote:

Some just argue for the sake of it.

Really

Dougwe · Chief one feather

I got sick of running out of popcorn so got my own machine smile

Are We Lost · Guru

oldbloke wrote:

Edit: I really like Actual Combined Weight. (ACW). It's very clear and would be understandable by the newby.

That would get my vote except you would have to explain it every time unless it was formalised, which I can't see happening.

And following on from there, instead of ATM we could use the same philosophy and say Actual Trailer Mass. That would give us ......... err no.

Or instead of GTM, we could say Actual Towing Mass, and that would give us ...... err no again.

So I think we need to wear out our typing fingers and say "actual" each time.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 27th of May 2022 05:25:37 PM

Craig1 · Guru

And he will be at Wangarratta Markets on Sunday, $10 for a veery big bag

yobarr · Guru

Bill B wrote:
oldbloke wrote:

Some just argue for the sake of it.
Really

There is no arguement here. Just facts. You can't just change the rules to suit yourself by penning garbage such as " It may not be a legal term,but it works for me". Can you even begin to imagine the mayhem and turmoil in society if every person decided to interpret laws and regulations in the way that suited them best? Spare me. Laws and regulations are made for a reason, and for everybody. No exceptions. Grow up. Cheers

montie · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
Thanks Bob and Batboy. At least a few see the light. And I'm sure most do.

Some just argue for the sake of it.

Edit: I really like Actual Combined Weight. (ACW). It's very clear and would be understandable by the newby.

-- Edited by oldbloke on Friday 27th of May 2022 03:01:05 PM

There's a job in the Dept of Infrastructure for you guys....all these definitions!