Definition off-road.

Possum3 · Guru

Definition off-road.

bgt · Guru

Good luck. Everyone will have a different view based on their own needs and experience.

Trevor 57 · Senior Member

We fall in into the 4 range occasionally, but mostly we are a 2 or 3

Trevor 57 · Senior Member

it is good to see some discussion around this, what about a 0.5 for those that drive down a dirt road occasionally but insist on owning a 'off-road' caravan

woolman · Guru

In my opinion "off road" classification is a con for suckers. Why do they fit full off road tyres on a van other than looks. Fit light truck tyres instead for less problems.

More important a van constructed more securely than staples and driving to road conditions. Sealed roads will wreck a lot of vans as well with some drivers.

The only advantage if you are serious off road that the van has sufficient entry and exit angle clearance.

Neil

HandyWalter · Senior Member

Off Road is such a difficult term. My view is that if a van is "certified" off road, then it should be capable to traversing any gazetted road in Australia, with the priviso that it is towed within the confines of the conditions. (ie driven/towed with regard to the prevailing conditions). The issue that needs to be addressed is when is a road or track not suitable for any towed van or trailer? For example Blue Rag and/or Billy Goat track in the high country are what 4WD Victoria classify as a Double Black Diamond tracks. I have never nor would I think any sane person would contemplate trying to take a caravan (however tough built) up these tracks. But I bet OAR or Kedron would say they would cover a van that did try!

TheHeaths · Guru

I am happy to be shot down, and maybe it is a simplistic view that I have. But I do feel it is valid. I actually remember a poster in another place asking for a similar discussion and definition. He also disagreed with this definition.

Off Road - as far as I am concerned means exactly that. Non gazetted tracks, and anywhere without any formal route that you can drive on. Across paddocks, down creek beds, in short if it fits on it, you can take it there!

Of course, then we need to classify On Road in a caravan sense. In a purely pedantic sense, anywhere on a gazetted road/track is on road, by definition, in my opinion.

In a van sense I see the need for classifications of touring van (bitumen roads only), dirt road tourer (capable of usage on reasonable dirt roads in rural areas), and finally outback track ( capable and built for use on any gazetted road or tracks including those in remote locations).

I know, a can of worms, but my thoughts on the question, and happy for Colin to consider.

Whenarewethere · Guru

My Land Rover Freelander can have up 350kg on tow ball. Increase GVM 100kg up to 100kph. It can tow 2000kg. Also in the manual it states 750kg off road.

So a non gazetted road it is 750kg towing.

We don't tow so it's all a mute point.

bgt · Guru

The confusion isn't just for caravans. Look at all the 4x4's on the road. How many of them ever see the dirt? How many do 'real' off road work? Folks have this idea that 'off road' is some sort of a status symbol. Nail some checker plate to a caravan and call it 'off road'. It's like orange juice and orange drink. The definition has to come from the regulators. And god help us all if they get involved.

Trevor 57 · Senior Member

bgt wrote:
The confusion isn't just for caravans. Look at all the 4x4's on the road. How many of them ever see the dirt? How many do 'real' off road work? Folks have this idea that 'off road' is some sort of a status symbol. Nail some checker plate to a caravan and call it 'off road'. It's like orange juice and orange drink. The definition has to come from the regulators. And god help us all if they get involved.

I love watching the videos posted on a Facebook page called 'I got bogged at Inskip Point' Inskip Point is where the ferry leaves from Rainbow Beach for Fraser Island

People with no idea on what is classed as a 4 wheel drive or any idea bout tyre pressures or low profile tyres - funny as hell to watch

HandyWalter · Senior Member

TheHeaths wrote:
I am happy to be shot down, and maybe it is a simplistic view that I have. But I do feel it is valid. I actually remember a poster in another place asking for a similar discussion and definition. He also disagreed with this definition.

Off Road - as far as I am concerned means exactly that. Non gazetted tracks, and anywhere without any formal route that you can drive on. Across paddocks, down creek beds, in short if it fits on it, you can take it there!

Of course, then we need to classify On Road in a caravan sense. In a purely pedantic sense, anywhere on a gazetted road/track is on road, by definition, in my opinion.

In a van sense I see the need for classifications of touring van (bitumen roads only), dirt road tourer (capable of usage on reasonable dirt roads in rural areas), and finally outback track ( capable and built for use on any gazetted road or tracks including those in remote locations).

I know, a can of worms, but my thoughts on the question, and happy for Colin to consider.

The issue with your definition is that if you drive on a non gazetted road or track (note the two tracks I quoted are gazetted) then in all likelyhood your insurance wont cover you. If the road or track does take you down a river bed fine, but taking a car or a van or whatever down a river that is not marked as part of a road or track just because its off road, means its probably not covered. Non gazetted roads are generally those on farms or open plains that people drive just to get around. (ie not defined on a map). My view would be good luck if you sustained damage on those with an off road van and see if the manufacturer would come to the party. 4WD Vic has quite clear insurance guidelines on how people will be covered or not covered when doing organized 4WD club trips, and their definition is that the vehicles must be travelling on gazetted roads or tracks. Hence my comment for the same to apply to an off road towed item, not just anywhere the owner decides to take it!

Whenarewethere · Guru

Possum3 wrote:
Clear and easy-to-measure, interpretations or meanings, are needed.

Possible Basic Key-Point Definitions:

"Off-Road" Caravans

One doesn't need to be off-road to encounter horrific roads. Being off-road one will hopefully be extra careful.

But being on-road on a rock strewn corrugated road can do untold destruction.

It is corrugated roads which have broken things on our car & that is with letting tyres down, but it would have been worse if we hadn't let tyres down.

If you don't like letting tyres down because because it take too long to pump all your tyres back up. There is a very easy solution. Parallel compressors. We have three. Run the engine as you will need up to about 100amps, keep cable short & get a longer air hose with at least 8mm internal diameter.

It takes us less than 30 seconds from 20 to 35psi & ironically 60 seconds to deflate a tyre.

Mobi Condo · Guru

From our experience, anywhere within 1 to 3 from the initial suggestions.

Steepness of terrain would be dependent on the tug and of course the driver skills and duty of care for machinery, road surface, terrain, passenger capabilities, and passenger(s) off road /4WD driving skills as well.

The van itself should have capacity for extended stays for around two weeks in the true boonies/donga/scrub/desert - self sufficient for electrical/gas power, water capacity, grey water containment of at least 3 days - preferably longer, good ground clearance, f'ward & aft retrieval lugs, good exit clearance, good wheel articulation.

As tyres have been mentioned already - tyres be Light Truck "standard" for load bearing capacity, have good mud tread clearance/clearing features (it really does help to have tyres NOT clogging with mud and slipping every which way on even slight lateral slopes) thus the van follows the tug rather than dragging the tug sideways as can happen.

I may add more as the thought come to mind.

Dicko1 · Senior Member

I dont agree with the "responsible maximum speed". That is for the driver to decide..too many variables.

landy · Guru

TheHeaths wrote:

I am happy to be shot down, and maybe it is a simplistic view that I have. But I do feel it is valid. I actually remember a poster in another place asking for a similar discussion and definition. He also disagreed with this definition.

Off Road - as far as I am concerned means exactly that. Non gazetted tracks, and anywhere without any formal route that you can drive on. Across paddocks, down creek beds, in short if it fits on it, you can take it there!

Of course, then we need to classify On Road in a caravan sense. In a purely pedantic sense, anywhere on a gazetted road/track is on road, by definition, in my opinion.

In a van sense I see the need for classifications of touring van (bitumen roads only), dirt road tourer (capable of usage on reasonable dirt roads in rural areas), and finally outback track ( capable and built for use on any gazetted road or tracks including those in remote locations).

I know, a can of worms, but my thoughts on the question, and happy for Colin to consider.

I agree completely.

Wanda · Guru

Should be more mention of the surface, sandy, rocky, corrigated to name just a couple.
A bit late to add anymore after a couple of vinos

TheHeaths · Guru

HandyWalter wrote:
TheHeaths wrote:
I am happy to be shot down, and maybe it is a simplistic view that I have. But I do feel it is valid. I actually remember a poster in another place asking for a similar discussion and definition. He also disagreed with this definition.

Off Road - as far as I am concerned means exactly that. Non gazetted tracks, and anywhere without any formal route that you can drive on. Across paddocks, down creek beds, in short if it fits on it, you can take it there!

Of course, then we need to classify On Road in a caravan sense. In a purely pedantic sense, anywhere on a gazetted road/track is on road, by definition, in my opinion.

In a van sense I see the need for classifications of touring van (bitumen roads only), dirt road tourer (capable of usage on reasonable dirt roads in rural areas), and finally outback track ( capable and built for use on any gazetted road or tracks including those in remote locations).

I know, a can of worms, but my thoughts on the question, and happy for Colin to consider.

The issue with your definition is that if you drive on a non gazetted road or track (note the two tracks I quoted are gazetted) then in all likelyhood your insurance wont cover you. If the road or track does take you down a river bed fine, but taking a car or a van or whatever down a river that is not marked as part of a road or track just because its off road, means its probably not covered. Non gazetted roads are generally those on farms or open plains that people drive just to get around. (ie not defined on a map). My view would be good luck if you sustained damage on those with an off road van and see if the manufacturer would come to the party. 4WD Vic has quite clear insurance guidelines on how people will be covered or not covered when doing organized 4WD club trips, and their definition is that the vehicles must be travelling on gazetted roads or tracks. Hence my comment for the same to apply to an off road towed item, not just anywhere the owner decides to take it!

I accept that insurance would have qualms about covering people in many situations that fit under my off road definition, and also in my on road definition In certain cases. My comment was made purely in the context of what is Off Road, not in the availability of insurance for the activity. I believe that is a different issue between owners and insurers.

montie · Guru

IMO the term "Off Road" when used to describe the ability of a caravan is grossly misleading because we all know there is no such thing as a true 100% off road van.

It is a term loosely used by the industry and it's use should be banned.

I much prefer "Touring Van" to describe a van intended for bitumen only and "Dirt Road" (suggestion) for a van intended to leave the bitumen.

Describing a van as "Off Road" suggests there are no limitations on where it can be taken.

Mike Harding · Guru

montie wrote:
IMO the term "Off Road" when used to describe the ability of a caravan is grossly misleading because we all know there is no such thing as a true 100% off road van.
It is a term loosely used by the industry and it's use should be banned.

Yep, I'm with Montie.

I don't believe any caravan is capable of "4WDing" in the sense I spent many years doing it with a solo vehicle and swag.

I think trying to define it is pointless because the variables are so many; a dirt track may be easy one year but by the next have so many corrugations the van will be shaken to bits after 10km.

Doing 50km on an outback NSW dirt road is very different from doing the Birdsville Track yet I consider both to be easy from a 4WD perspective.

Perhaps it's worth prospective customers asking dealers to define exactly what *they* mean by "off road" - in writing?

Mobi Condo · Guru

Ah! Now after a good nights sleep, some additional thoughts.

Said van must provide human comforts/personal hygiene facilities, reliable healthy food storage(fridge), safe reliable food preparation/cooking facilities, comfortable warm sleeping facilities.

Now all of my listings means a HEFTY van.

AND at the end of each day the knowledge that the van is in good condition mechanically, internal fitments not falling to pieces even after 500klm of severely corrugated Tanami Road, Gibb River Road or Cape York Road etc. or any other off shoot track one might want to explore, means that driver(s) remain emotionally at rest and ready to continue calmly and in control for safety sake.

Mind you - it can be seen we have a BT, and they can be totaled very easily due to Driver error hence our very cautious approach to driving and surviving.

We once saw a quality brand camper trailer totaled to "match sticks" in the scrub off the side of the Cape York road on a sweeping bend with severe corrugations across the road from scrub line to scrub line. The driver blamed the road. He said he was only doing 120 kph at the time!

How can any manufacturer or roads authority be held to blame for that!

bgt · Guru

Most of it is playing with words and interpretation. A number system like they have for hiking trails would/should work. ie 1 could be for sealed roads. 2 could be for maintained gravel roads. 3 could be for your nuts. And 4 could be for your are nuts and on your own!! But on a serious note a number system would not be as open to interpretation as a word system. Under a number system you could describe in more detail what is included in the category. My guess is that 90% of vans would be a 1 or 2.

Bobdown · Guru

bgt wrote:
Most of it is playing with words and interpretation. A number system like they have for hiking trails would/should work. ie 1 could be for sealed roads. 2 could be for maintained gravel roads. 3 could be for your nuts. And 4 could be for your are nuts and on your own!! But on a serious note a number system would not be as open to interpretation as a word system. Under a number system you could describe in more detail what is included in the category. My guess is that 90% of vans would be a 1 or 2.

The number system is open to interpretation as well, we did an easy level 2 walk at Lucky Bay, 2 hours return. Near on killed the Missus, 2 hours one way with over half of it uphill by big rock steps,

took the road on the way back and only took an hour. I think Emund Hillary had done the grading....... smile smile smile

Cheers Bob

Meredith · Senior Member

montie wrote:
IMO the term "Off Road" when used to describe the ability of a caravan is grossly misleading because we all know there is no such thing as a true 100% off road van.
It is a term loosely used by the industry and it's use should be banned.
I much prefer "Touring Van" to describe a van intended for bitumen only and "Dirt Road" (suggestion) for a van intended to leave the bitumen.
Describing a van as "Off Road" suggests there are no limitations on where it can be taken.

Definitely agree, if you want to go truly off road then you aren't taking any full size caravan no matter what it is called.

Whenarewethere · Guru

The Oodnadatta Track is a main road. The top end, 120 km had a lot of stones so we took it slowly, down to 40kph with tyres at 24psi & aiming for the little stones, doing our best to avoid the big ones.

Roads can easily be rougher than off-road tracks.

About 50km down the road a Toyota with extra fat tyres flew past us as if we were standing still throwing rocks everywhere.

10 minutes further they were replacing a flat tyre. Surprise surprise.

5 minutes later they flew past a second time... some people don't learn!

Even though the road is rough in parts, dust & corrugations in other sections, you simply have to drive to the conditions & let tyres down. Not difficult stuff.

Sign at start at Marla end.

Radar · Guru

Off road is all about "EGO", human nature is not going to be changed by a numbering system to define what a off road caravan is.

There is already a number of high end priced caravans with out the words off road caravan stamped on them but hold there own on any Australia back roads.

Myself I like the contruction of our low to mid priced caravan, it has very similar under pinning tyres, wheels, equalising suspension and most important a strong well built chassis without the words "Off Road" plastered down the side like the more expensive larger over equiped, over weight caravans with "Off Road" on them.

If an real opportunity arose it would be towed down some of the modern iconic tracks ie Birdsville, Gribb River, Great Central.

So the question is "what ego do you have"?

Are We Lost · Guru

Sorry Radar, I don't agree with your point.

I have no doubt that many caravan buyers have bought "off road" vans, believing that those words meant they could be taken just about anywhere. If the term is misleading, then buyers will be misled. That makes the stated model name false or misleading. Here is a brief from ACCC:

ACCC False or misleading claims

So, if a standard is developed and a manufacturer develops a model that does not meet the expectation given by its designation, then the buyer should have recourse without having to argue what was meant by the manufacturer. At present it seems it is difficult to define what the term means, or should mean.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 2nd of July 2021 10:52:17 PM

Radar · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
Sorry Radar, I don't agree with your point.

I have no doubt that many caravan buyers have bought "off road" vans, believing that those words meant they could be taken just about anywhere. If the term is misleading, then buyers will be misled. That makes the stated model name false or misleading. Here is a brief from ACCC:

ACCC False or misleading claims

So, if a standard is developed and a manufacturer develops a model that does not meet the expectation given by its designation, then the buyer should have recourse without having to argue what was meant by the manufacturer. At present it seems it is difficult to define what the term means, or should mean.

It would be real good for some practical honesty in the caravan manufacturing industry, I do agree for "standards"

For my wife and I we do not go "Off Road" caravaning, we do enjoy "4 Wheel Driving" days out.

Dicko1 · Senior Member

Radar wrote:
Are We Lost wrote:
Sorry Radar, I don't agree with your point.

I have no doubt that many caravan buyers have bought "off road" vans, believing that those words meant they could be taken just about anywhere. If the term is misleading, then buyers will be misled. That makes the stated model name false or misleading. Here is a brief from ACCC:

ACCC False or misleading claims

So, if a standard is developed and a manufacturer develops a model that does not meet the expectation given by its designation, then the buyer should have recourse without having to argue what was meant by the manufacturer. At present it seems it is difficult to define what the term means, or should mean.
It would be real good for some practical honesty in the caravan manufacturing industry, I do agree for "standards"
For my wife and I we do not go "Off Road" caravaning, we do enjoy "4 Wheel Driving" days out.

They cant even get their vans tare weight right so you expect honesty from the unregulated industry? The more rigs I see on the road the more I agree....ego is the over riding component for many glampers. Too much money and too little grey matter..

yobarr · Guru

Dicko1 wrote:
Radar wrote:
Are We Lost wrote:
Sorry Radar, I don't agree with your point.

I have no doubt that many caravan buyers have bought "off road" vans, believing that those words meant they could be taken just about anywhere. If the term is misleading, then buyers will be misled. That makes the stated model name false or misleading. Here is a brief from ACCC:

ACCC False or misleading claims

So, if a standard is developed and a manufacturer develops a model that does not meet the expectation given by its designation, then the buyer should have recourse without having to argue what was meant by the manufacturer. At present it seems it is difficult to define what the term means, or should mean.
It would be real good for some practical honesty in the caravan manufacturing industry, I do agree for "standards"
For my wife and I we do not go "Off Road" caravaning, we do enjoy "4 Wheel Driving" days out.
They cant even get their vans tare weight right so you expect honesty from the unregulated industry? The more rigs I see on the road the more I agree....ego is the over riding component for many glampers. Too much money and too little grey matter..

"They can't even get their vans tare weight right you suggest.You do,of course,understand that the stamped tare weight means nothing more than that that was the weight of the van when it came out of the factory.ANYTHING added after that is part of the load. Cheers

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

TheHeaths wrote:

Off Road - as far as I am concerned means exactly that. Non gazetted tracks, and anywhere without any formal route that you can drive on. Across paddocks, down creek beds, in short if it fits on it, you can take it there!

Of course, then we need to classify On Road in a caravan sense. In a purely pedantic sense, anywhere on a gazetted road/track is on road, by definition, in my opinion.

In a van sense I see the need for classifications of touring van (bitumen roads only), dirt road tourer (capable of usage on reasonable dirt roads in rural areas), and finally outback track ( capable and built for use on any gazetted road or tracks including those in remote locations).

Agreed.

"Off road" is not an appropriate description for any place to drive an RV of any kind. It should not be legal to drive "off road" as that infers driving where other vehicles have not driven, and that is ecologically unsound.

I have driven a 4WD "off road" while mustering cattle in the Pilbara, but the OKA does not go "off road".

The term "off road" needs to go completely.

This is a "road".

Cheers,

Peter