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Post Info TOPIC: Waste of Money… again.


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Presently I am helping a friend to selectively clear a bush block,cutting down 15 metre trees,and towing them away with a (shudder) Triton,which, despite being severely misused and abused,is doing a surprisingly good job! Anyway,the chainsaw I was using was a littlle small for the job at hand,so we went to the nearest chainsaw shop to buy the Super-Dooper Stihl model to speed things up a bit. During the usual chit-chat the subject of tow vehicles came up, with the salesman proudly announcing that  he'd just spent "a few thousand" upgrading the suspension on his new Colorado so he could tow his "2 ton tare" caravan,which I learned has ATM of 2500kg.This seemed a pointless exercise,given the Colorado can safely tow around 3100kg in standard form,so I asked why he thought he had needed a suspension upgrade.Seems he'd been told by the Colorado salesman that the car had maximum towball weight of 350kg,so when the van salesman also advised that the new van should be towed with towball weight of 350kg,he'd loaded accordingly,with front tanks full of water, but nothing behind the van's axle group. He still was unaware that the Colorado would likely have been overloaded on the rear axle,but he was more concerned that the front of the van was down,as was the rear of the car,with the front of the car pointing skyward.When he approached a suspension "expert" for advice,he'd been told that the car simply needed a "heavy duty suspension upgrade". Whether the suspension man was ignorant of the facts,or simply wanted to get the business,I do not know,but this is a perfect example of the blind leading the blind,with this owner down "a few thousand",but still running around with over 14% towball weight and likely overloaded on the car's rear axle. At least the weight on the wheels of the car is 25% greater than the weight on the van's wheels! Unfortunately, there seems to be little understanding of weights among those in the vanning and towing equipment industries,with the consumer being the big loser.Cheers

P.S The first picture is of a vehicle I recently spotted on my travels,possibly well overloaded? Despite having a well-tensioned WDH,the rear of this car sat well down,as did the front of the van,while the rear tyre shows signs of stress! Not being able to help myself,I suggested to the driver that perhaps his car was overloaded,but he was most dismissive,saying the car was a 79 and all was good as far as he was concerned.I doubt it.          Even 79s have limits!

1A2AE62B-6042-43ED-A11D-866BAA7E8008.png 55398758-967A-4AC9-B6BE-DC900948BEBF.png

 



-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 26th of June 2021 12:21:50 PM

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Surely this post should be in your "weights" forum Yobar. It would be easier to ignore there.



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Mike Harding wrote:

Surely this post should be in your "weights" forum Yobar. It would be easier to ignore there.


 Thanks Mike,for this helpful observation,but I chose to post here to attract the attention of members who may not be interested in their weights,and would possibly not visit the other sub-forum.However,I am surprised that you even bothered to read it if you prefer to ignore my contributions,Cheers

Here is another example of a caravanner who apparently has little understanding of weights or physics?

 

3896C01E-F0DE-4373-8549-0AAE37620587.png



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yobarr wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:

Surely this post should be in your "weights" forum Yobar. It would be easier to ignore there.


 Thanks Mike,for this helpful observation,but I chose to post here to attract the attention of members who may not be interested in their weights,and would possibly not visit the other sub-forum.However,I am surprised that you even bothered to read it if you prefer to ignore my contributions,Cheers

Here is another example of a caravanner who apparently has little understanding of weights or physics?

 

3896C01E-F0DE-4373-8549-0AAE37620587.png


 At the very least they have towing mirrors. Now that has to be a plus!!



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Avagreatday.

Kathy and Frank currently at Home near Quirindi NSW



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Yobarr,you have an obsession with" weights" and a compulsion to take photo's of other peoples' vans.

You need help. Get a life man.

yobarr.JPG



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 The trouble is not only photographing others rigs (to post them in a negative light)but assuming rigs are overloaded with no evidence. That owner (79)didn't confirm nor deny he was overloaded. That LC tray might not have much weight over the rear axle, springs might have sagged or loading of van wasn't thought out. It's 50/50 whether he's legal. If the authorities allow such rigs to travel around then it's reasonable for all of us to be just as reasonable e.g. don't concern yourself too much.

 

I've had dozens of busy bodies suggest my rig is overloaded with the same assumptions regretfully they don't ask first. "That car can't tow that van" I hear instead of "I'm surprised your car can tow that van, do you mind sharing your weights"?

I now invite them to read the plate on the drawbar and walk away without a word more. They read tare 730kg ATM 998kg.

 

Had you never known of my lightweight van and tug details you'd be just like them, full of assumptions on matters that don't concern you unless it is clearly a danger to the public with known evidence. 

Tony

 

 



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G'day yobarr
While others are at it , I just thought I would correct you about the reducing GVM of the Y62 Patrol with tow ball weight , I know not related to the above post but anyway you are wrong about that and that's with all series not just the newer S5 there is no reduction with any series .


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I haven't a dog in this fight. I can understand Yobarr's concern and appreciate his point of view. But just maybe he is preaching to the wrong congregation. I would guess that most folks on these forum are here because they are interested enough to be here! But what Yobarr is preaching needs to be redirected at all the dealers and buyers that simply have no idea about the correct calculations of weights.

Right message wrong place?

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Deleted poor reproduction.

-- Edited by landy on Sunday 27th of June 2021 11:33:55 AM

-- Edited by landy on Sunday 27th of June 2021 11:34:21 AM

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Any message that serves to educate others is worthwhile no matter where it is delivered or by whom.
Many prospective buyers access forums such as this to gain information.



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Monty. RV Dealer.



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montie wrote:

Any message that serves to educate others is worthwhile no matter where it is delivered or by whom.
Many prospective buyers access forums such as this to gain information.


 Agree 100%



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Gundog wrote:
montie wrote:

Any message that serves to educate others is worthwhile no matter where it is delivered or by whom.
Many prospective buyers access forums such as this to gain information.


 Agree 100%


 Also agree 100%



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KB



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Or this.100_2526.JPG



-- Edited by littledick on Sunday 27th of June 2021 12:43:47 PM

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montie wrote:

Any message that serves to educate others is worthwhile no matter where it is delivered or by whom.


Emmmmm... I think there is a limit to the amount of protracted righteousness one can tolerate.



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My thoughts on the posted pictures other than the ridiculous VW one are as follows. 79 series is probably overweight but I would say his hitch height is not ideal and why he has a WDH on in the first place when it is so poorly adjusted I doubt it is having much effect. It is right at the end of the chain and it doesn't appear to have much in the way of tension on it. The LC200 could well be within weight limits but again the hitch height could be much better than having the van doing such a nose dive. The Commodore has been fitted with lowered springs and they were always a bit soft in the back end so really no suprise there. Unless he has an enormous amount of gear on board, with that little Millard van the Commodore under normal circumstances should tow it quite comfortably, but if you are going to lower it then this is the end result.

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JackoFJR wrote:

G'day yobarr
While others are at it , I just thought I would correct you about the reducing GVM of the Y62 Patrol with tow ball weight , I know not related to the above post but anyway you are wrong about that and that's with all series not just the newer S5 there is no reduction with any series .


 Sorry Ron,but you are mistaken.Up until the series 5,at 350kg towball weight the GVM of the Y62  is reduced to 3370kg.This means,with the generally accepted 10% towball weight,the maximum GCM you can achieve is 6520kg (3370kg plus 3150kg),but that too is impossible.Too busy at present,cutting down trees, to fully explain,but happy to do so later if you wish.Short story is that you can never replace the weight that is removed from the front axle when towball weight is applied. Never. And NO,a WDH will NOT help.Cheers

 

B36C2111-23E8-4CA7-BC8C-968B749F93B5.jpeg

 



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 27th of June 2021 06:25:15 PM

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montie wrote:

Any message that serves to educate others is worthwhile no matter where it is delivered or by whom.
Many prospective buyers access forums such as this to gain information.


 Thanks Montie,for your support.Often I wonder if my advice would be more readily accepted if I was to post under a different name? Some members simply refuse to accept facts,particularly when those facts are at variance to their long-held  beliefs and "understanding" of weights. Cheers



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As this forum has a continual stream of new subscribers, many of whom possibly fall into the category of the "ill informed", and the topic of weights, is such a critical one, I don't think it hurts to revisit it on a regular basis.

As I see it people visit this site seeking information, and if posts such as this are successful in helping even one person to sort out their setup, then I think it was worthwhile. Is this not a safety issue after all, and there a few better informed people to comment on it than Yobarr.

Personal conflicts and disagreements from many of the more avid subscribers, detract from the value of many of the posts I see on GNF, and often reduce the value of much of the information posted. 

As I see it if you are already well informed on a specific topic, then let the massage posted flow onto a more deserving recipient without comment.



-- Edited by bomurra on Sunday 27th of June 2021 01:56:40 PM



-- Edited by bomurra on Sunday 27th of June 2021 05:09:04 PM

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yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:

Any message that serves to educate others is worthwhile no matter where it is delivered or by whom.
Many prospective buyers access forums such as this to gain information.


 Thanks Montie,for your support.Often I wonder if my advice would be more readily accepted if I was to post under a different name? Some members simply refuse to accept facts,particularly when those facts are at variance to their long-held  beliefs and "understanding" of weights. Cheers


 Yobarr,you got a specific spot in the Techies Corner for your "weight and measures" can't you leave it at that.



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montie wrote:

Any message that serves to educate others is worthwhile no matter where it is delivered or by whom.
Many prospective buyers access forums such as this to gain information.


 G`day ,

Well said Montie.

Cheers,

Jontee



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Montie says

Any message that serves to educate others is worthwhile no matter where it is delivered or by whom.
Many prospective buyers access forums such as this to gain information.

Agree 200%.

cheers Bilbo



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Greg, I think the vehicle in the third pic that yobarr posted is a 100 series and not the 200.

Unfortunately yobarr just assumes that most of us are overloaded or that none of us know what we are talking about.

He continually assumes that we all have a ball weight of 350 kg and this is easily confirmed by reading back through his posts.

I agree that some of his pics may be indicating a weight problem but he doesn't know and neither does anyone who does not actually own and operate these combinations. Some of them could be something as simple as an incorrect hitch height.

Also if these pics are taken from the World Wide Web then each pic could be taken completely out of context.
What if the pic from an unknown source is actually indicating a subject that may be explained so easily if the text accompanies it.

Except for a few members on here the rest of us are treated with contempt with his condescending comments.

Because you haven't supplied a link or if they are actually your pics then without weighbridge confirmation nothing you say is factual, it is just an assumption.

Yobarr you were allocated a sub forum from where you may spruke your knowledge of vehicle / van weights yet you choose to not not use it.
Are you not using that sub forum because you just need the full attention of all forum members.

There is actually a name for that personality condition.
But carry on anyway.

Regards

Rob



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Well said.x2



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Plain Truth wrote:
 Yobarr,you got a specific spot in the Techies Corner for your "weight and measures" can't you leave it at that.

The Plain Truth is that the answer to your question,along with my explanation, is clearly shown in my post,in this thread,from June 26,at 5.21pm. Had you taken the time to actually read all the posts,rather than simply look at them,you may not have felt the need to submit the above question?         I sincerely hope that this puts your mind at ease.Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 27th of June 2021 07:29:33 PM

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yobarr wrote:
JackoFJR wrote:

G'day yobarr
While others are at it , I just thought I would correct you about the reducing GVM of the Y62 Patrol with tow ball weight , I know not related to the above post but anyway you are wrong about that and that's with all series not just the newer S5 there is no reduction with any series .


 Sorry Ron,but you are mistaken.Up until the series 5,at 350kg towball weight the GVM of the Y62  is reduced to 3370kg.This means,with the generally accepted 10% towball weight,the maximum GCM you can achieve is 6520kg (3370kg plus 3150kg),but that too is impossible.Too busy at present,cutting down trees, to fully explain,but hI know all that appy to do so later if you wish.Short story is that you can never replace the weight that is removed from the front axle when towball weight is applied. Never. And NO,a WDH will NOT help.Cheer s

Yes yobarr I know all that . I do own a S4 Y62 Patrol with that sticker and only tow a camper and would never try and tow 3.5T anything behind it . But that topic used to come up all the time on the Y62 FB page . A member a few months ago emailed Nissan Tech department and got a reply that he posted , I wish I had of saved it , on every series Y62 you can legally have a 350Kg tow ball down load but you must not exceed the GVM of 3.5T or the max rear axle load of 2030Kg . That sticker in my door clearly says " GUIDE ONLY " it doesn't say anywhere you must reduce the amount xyz   

The suspension of the Series 5 Y62 is exactly the same as all other Y62's except for the first Series 1, STL , even some of the very first Series 5 Y62's had that sticker . Nissan removed that sticker I think because of all the confusion it caused but Nissan still like to confuse people by saying the Y62 has a GCM of 7T , you and I both know that's just not possible but you might be surprised by the amount of Y62 owners that just cant get their head around it , they honestly believe they have a GCM of 7T . Toyota do the same with the 200 Series just add the Max GVM of 3350Kg and Max Towing of 3500Kg and say it has a GCM of 6850Kg  . I have never seen a Caravan with zero ball weight , even a Dog trailer would have some ball weight . I have 2 VicRoads weigh bridges very close to me that I can use anytime I like and I have many times , I even weighed the Dealers Demo S3 Y62 before I decided to buy one  . I'm very aware of how much weight is removed from the front axle when weight is applied to the tow ball and yes you can never replace it .

It really doesn't matter to me , like I said I only tow a Camper Trailer less than 1.5T with a TBW of 160 - 180kg and that reduces the front axle weight by about 70kg . 



 



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I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all those who offered their support to my comments in this threadMontie,Bilbo (Doug),Jontee (John),Bomurra (Robert), Gundog (Graham) KJB (Kerry),BGT (Bruce), KFT (Frank and Kathy),Greg. (Did I miss anybody?) Unfortunately,there are some members who seem to habitually dispute anything that I post about weights.These members appear to know little,understand less and apparently have no interest in learning. There is none so blind as he who will not see,but,in the face of all adversity I will continue my efforts to help those members who do want to learn.  If  any member thinks he knows it all,or has no interest in learning,surely it is easier to simply "let the message posted flow onto a more deserving recipient without comment". (Thanks Robert!) Cheers



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JackoFJR wrote:
yobarr wrote:
JackoFJR wrote:

G'day yobarr
While others are at it , I just thought I would correct you about the reducing GVM of the Y62 Patrol with tow ball weight , I know not related to the above post but anyway you are wrong about that and that's with all series not just the newer S5 there is no reduction with any series .


 Sorry Ron,but you are mistaken.Up until the series 5,at 350kg towball weight the GVM of the Y62  is reduced to 3370kg.This means,with the generally accepted 10% towball weight,the maximum GCM you can achieve is 6520kg (3370kg plus 3150kg),but that too is impossible.Too busy at present,cutting down trees, to fully explain,but hI know all that appy to do so later if you wish.Short story is that you can never replace the weight that is removed from the front axle when towball weight is applied. Never. And NO,a WDH will NOT help.Cheer s

Yes yobarr I know all that . I do own a S4 Y62 Patrol with that sticker and only tow a camper and would never try and tow 3.5T anything behind it . But that topic used to come up all the time on the Y62 FB page . A member a few months ago emailed Nissan Tech department and got a reply that he posted , I wish I had of saved it , on every series Y62 you can legally have a 350Kg tow ball down load but you must not exceed the GVM of 3.5T or the max rear axle load of 2030Kg . That sticker in my door clearly says " GUIDE ONLY " it doesn't say anywhere you must reduce the amount xyz   

The suspension of the Series 5 Y62 is exactly the same as all other Y62's except for the first Series 1, STL , even some of the very first Series 5 Y62's had that sticker . Nissan removed that sticker I think because of all the confusion it caused but Nissan still like to confuse people by saying the Y62 has a GCM of 7T , you and I both know that's just not possible but you might be surprised by the amount of Y62 owners that just cant get their head around it , they honestly believe they have a GCM of 7T . Toyota do the same with the 200 Series just add the Max GVM of 3350Kg and Max Towing of 3500Kg and say it has a GCM of 6850Kg  . I have never seen a Caravan with zero ball weight , even a Dog trailer would have some ball weight . I have 2 VicRoads weigh bridges very close to me that I can use anytime I like and I have many times , I even weighed the Dealers Demo S3 Y62 before I decided to buy one  . I'm very aware of how much weight is removed from the front axle when weight is applied to the tow ball and yes you can never replace it .

It really doesn't matter to me , like I said I only tow a Camper Trailer less than 1.5T with a TBW of 160 - 180kg and that reduces the front axle weight by about 70kg . 


 Thanks Ron,for that clarification,but I wonder why you made your initial post,where you "corrected" me? Anyway,water under the bridge.As an aside,you are absolutely right with your comments about the LC200,which cannot safely tow much more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer if you want any passengers,fuel and the usual stuff that holiday makers carry in the backs of their cars. But that's another story,and one I have covered on several previous occasions.Wishing you safe and happy caravanning in your Y62. Lovely car that I did consider,but a bit too flash for a Boy From The Bush! Cheers

 

 

L7D101F40-52A0-4AA1-A40F-63F95DB7D168.pngLo

 



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yobarr wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:

Surely this post should be in your "weights" forum Yobar. It would be easier to ignore there.


 Thanks Mike,for this helpful observation,but I chose to post here to attract the attention of members who may not be interested in their weights,and would possibly not visit the other sub-forum.However,I am surprised that you even bothered to read it if you prefer to ignore my contributions,Cheers

Here is another example of a caravanner who apparently has little understanding of weights or physics?

 

3896C01E-F0DE-4373-8549-0AAE37620587.png


 Regarding the van and tow vehicle above. You do need to be carefully before jumping to conclusions.  If you look closely it looks overloaded for a reason. The tow ball is too low. But if you look closely the rear guard is only about 1 inch lower than the front. So poorly set up, yes, over loaded,,,perhaps not very much at all. 



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oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:

Surely this post should be in your "weights" forum Yobar. It would be easier to ignore there.


 Thanks Mike,for this helpful observation,but I chose to post here to attract the attention of members who may not be interested in their weights,and would possibly not visit the other sub-forum.However,I am surprised that you even bothered to read it if you prefer to ignore my contributions,Cheers

Here is another example of a caravanner who apparently has little understanding of weights or physics?

 

3896C01E-F0DE-4373-8549-0AAE37620587.png


 Regarding the van and tow vehicle above. You do need to be carefully before jumping to conclusions.  If you look closely it looks overloaded for a reason. The tow ball is too low. But if you look closely the rear guard is only about 1 inch lower than the front. So poorly set up, yes, over loaded,,,perhaps not very much at all. 


 Surely you jest? The towball is too low because the van has too much ball weight,and has forced the rear of the car to drop dramatically. If you look closely you will see that the sill of the car is at quite an angle to the road surface. (Shadows) You suggest that the rear guard is only about 1 inch lower than the front? The only way that may be correct is if your inches are far greater than mine? Looking at the distance between the tops of the tyres,and the wheel arch on the van, seems to me that,for some reason,that van has been raised a long way? Strange.Cheers

P.S For 2 days I have been using Triton to tow 15 metres logs after we felled many trees.Quite impressed,but I think that we will need to install a new clutch shortly.



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Yobarr, I stand by my statement. Put your glasses on.The car is very close to level. Only the van is on an angle.

As they say, the picture tells the story.

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