Battery update

Magnarc · Guru

Battery update

Possum3 · Guru

I question whether the Lithium would outlast 3 X 280AH AGM's www.aussiebatteries.com.au/batteries/deep-cycle-agm/ep-280ah-12v-agm-deep-cycle-battery

vince56 · Senior Member

The consideration is that the 280ah batteries would weigh 60+kg each so 180kg all up.
The Lithium about 24kg and would be equivalent output to a 340ah lead agm.
If weight is an issue for Magnarc the Lithium is the go no doubt.

Gary and Barb · Senior Member

Lithium is great. I just can't afford it, so I still run 120ah AGM. Lithium has a lot of advantages. It is lighter, has more available power and quicker charging. One day, maybe....
Still, Possum, the weight and size factor of that 280ah AGM is a real worry for many of us. I couldn't lift 60+ kgs into place and don't have the battery space to accommodate it. Pity.
I am now seriously looking at the Aussie Batteries AGM 140ah set up, 'though. Thanks for the link!!. The technology also looks really good; great price, it claims you can run it down 100%, has improved charge times and a good warranty. I guess it isn't recommended to run it down, but it is nice to know that it can be done without too much drama to the battery. Killed my previous AGM! I have the height to stack it onto the other 120ah, which would give me 260ah. Plenty of power reserve, particularly when coupled with my 250w solar panel. Enough to run a light industry estate!
Good luck with your new setup, Magnarc. I am jealous!

-- Edited by Gary and Barb on Wednesday 23rd of December 2020 05:23:01 PM

yobarr · Guru

Magnarc wrote:
Just updated the electrics in the van with a 200ah Campere lithium battery and a Victron bluetooth controller. I post this in case there are any Nomads who are thinking of doing this. The battery was $1235 from Sat-Plus in Chelsea, Melbourne, which after much research, was the best price that I found. All info is on their website.
I have no connection with this company but having dealt with them in the past found them to very reliable and always ready to advise on their products.

Hi Phil....please be aware that there is no such thing as "Cheap Lithium".You get exactly what you pay for.Caveat Emptor.I will say no more.Cheers

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

vince56 wrote:
The consideration is that the 280ah batteries would weigh 60+kg each so 180kg all up. Quality AGMs weigh 30kg/100Ah @12V nominal.

The Lithium about 24kg and would be equivalent output to a 340ah lead agm. If you are running "ordinary RV power devices", 100Ah of AGMs will do exactly the same job as 100Ah of Li. Li have an advantage of lower voltage sag when using very high draw products, but many Li drop ins can not do that anyhow because of their BMS limitations.

If weight is an issue for Magnarc the Lithium is the go no doubt. Quite correct.

We are mostly electric plus gas for cooking and diesel for hot water. We are still running 400Ah of AGMs that weigh 120kg.

We recently replaced them after 9 years for a total cost of $1,100 including freight. There is no way to match that performance per $ with the cost of Lithium (yet). Besides, I probably won't live long enough?

I have just started another OKA build motorhome and it needs to be under 4.5T GVM, so that will get 400Ah of Lithium and cooking will be all electric (induction) too and there will be no gas at all.

Cheers,

Peter

Possum3 · Guru

Gary and Barb wrote:
I am now seriously looking at the Aussie Batteries AGM 140ah set up, 'though. Thanks for the link!!. Killed my previous AGM! I have the height to stack it onto the other 120ah, which would give me 260ah. Plenty of power reserve, particularly when coupled with my 250w solar panel. Enough to run a light industry estate!
Good luck with your new setup, Magnarc. I am jealous!

-- Edited by Gary and Barb on Wednesday 23rd of December 2020 05:23:01 PM

Gary I run two of the Aussie Batteries 140AH got a great deal, coupling cables and free delivery - power to spare.

Derek Barnes · Senior Member

How are the Campere lithium batteries at delivering high currents for a large inverter? I have heard in the past that lithium batteries don't deliver continuous high current loads (i.e around 250 amps) necessary to run 2000 to 3000 watt inverters. This has been my main sticking point to not getting lithium batteries yet (that and the price).

Whenarewethere · Guru

Comparing the Campere 200AH with a Victron 200AH lithium.

Campere:

367 x 187 x 245mm = 16.81 litres

21.4 kg

0.78 density

30A normal charge

60A maximum charge

100A maximum continuous discharge

160A maximum discharge 10 seconds

Victron:

425 x 297 x 265mm = 33.45 litres

42.0 kg

1.255 density

100A normal charge

400A maximum charge

200A maximum continuous recommend discharge

400A maximum continuous discharge

I don't know what it is but the Compere battery seems to be missing something.

yobarr · Guru

Whenarewethere wrote:
Comparing the Campere 200AH with a Victron 200AH lithium.

Campere:
367 x 187 x 245mm = 16.81 litres
21.4 kg
0.78 density
30A normal charge
60A maximum charge
100A maximum continuous discharge
160A maximum discharge 10 seconds

Victron:
425 x 297 x 265mm = 33.45 litres
42.0 kg
1.255 density
100A normal charge
400A maximum charge
200A maximum continuous recommend discharge
400A maximum continuous discharge

I don't know what it is but the Compere battery seems to be missing something.

You're right,Jonathan.This exactly what I was alluding to in my earlier post.Good quality and low price are never closely related.Cheers.

Whenarewethere · Guru

One needs to do their due diligence.

Even a lot of the Victron info floating around the internet for their 200AH battery is wrong, if you look harder you will find the correct figures. The size is a typo from the 160AH & the weight is a stuff up.

Not only do you need to compare makes. Do the calculations within a range of products to double check that the numbers stack up.

A battery has to have X amount of weight. No different to solar panels, If the manufacturer's numbers are more than 170W/m² they are using a rubber ruler or sky hooks!

Mike Harding · Guru

Whenarewethere wrote:
Victron:
425 x 297 x 265mm = 33.45 litres
42.0 kg
1.255 density
100A normal charge
400A maximum charge
200A maximum continuous recommend discharge
400A maximum continuous discharge

And a bargain at a mere $3600 plus a bit more for the external Victron electronics it *requires*.

https://www.mygenerator.com.au/victron-lifepo4-lithium-battery-12-8v-200ah-smart.html

And with a whole three years of warranty too - it seems the manufacturers are not confident after that....

You get what you pay for eh?

Magnarc · Guru

RE: Battery bush

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

RE: Battery update

Magnarc · Guru

Peter where is your technical info to back up your post. Below is the info I have taken from the Enerdrive website.

Another huge benefit is that a lithium caravan battery provides 60% more usable power than its counterpart! This is because it has a depth of discharge of 80% compared to 50% for an AGM battery. Plus, a lithium battery will give you almost double the lifecycle of the AGM equivalent.

They would surely not print something that was not true?????

Whenarewethere · Guru

If you look up the data sheet & add up the total discharge (% x cycles) a lead acid battery has more total hours being discharged further.

If one discharges a battery to a high % every now & then, say for overcast weather it will barely reduce the cycles as most of the time one probably does a low % discharge in good weather.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

The life of a battery is primarily determined by the total power in and out, not the number of cycles. And that applies to AGMs and lithium.
People get fixated on the number of cycles, but one discharge to 30% is only 1/3rd of the power transfer compared to one discharge to 90%, so for a similar energy life, you get 3 times the cycles from 30% DOD, so deep discharging MUST be a bad thing, right? WRONG.

It is true that repeated deep cycles will reduce the total life somewhat, but this is at the margin and there is no "cliff" at 50%.

It is a legitimate choice to have a smaller bank of AGMs (or any other type) and work them harder. Lower weight, lower cash tied up, lower reserve, replace them more often. Total cost per year will be similar.

This Fullriver chart compares cycles to depth of discharge.

If you multiply the number of cycles by the Ah for each cycle (assume a 100Ah battery) you get something like this for the total life.....

100% DOD = 100Ah per cycle x 280 cycles = 2,800Ah total life

70% DOD = 70Ah per cycle x 450 cycles = 3,150Ah total life

50% DOD = 50Ah per cycle x 650 cycles = 3,250Ah total life.

Just reading the number of cycles gives a totally misleading impression of the battery life.

Cheers,

Peter

Magnarc · Guru

Just a few final observations on this subject.

Why would one buy an AGM rated at say, 120ah when you can only use 50% of its power before recharging. What is the point of the 70% thats left???

Contrary to some opinions on this forum, I have checked over 15 web sites that deal with this matter, including the very well informed Collyn Rivers, and all agree that Lithium LiFePo4 batteries can be discharged to 80% without any hassles providing you have the right controller.

Weight as a factor. There is no comparison with an AGM.

Price. Yep that is definately a factor, no argument on that score.

So i am very happy with the purchase, time will tell if it was the right one but, as I said in a former post, if I am still hitching up at 90 then I will be a very happy man!!!!!

Thanks to all for your contribution.

yobarr · Guru

Magnarc wrote:
Hi guys, I appreciate your input on this subject so I will explain my decision. The Campere battery is made by Solar King a trusted name in this field. I had two 120ah Full River AGMs total weight 70 kilos. The lithium is 24kilos or thereabouts. this gives us more leeway with regard to weight in the van. We do not need an inverter as we don't use appliances that require 240 unless we are in a park. Having spent that amount of money it made sense to replace the old PWM controller, even though I was told that it would do the job, with a Victron MPPT 100/30 controller which is the right one for our 450w panels and lets us monitor battery performance to the phone via the Victron connect app.
One of the biggest selling points for me was that the lithium can go down to 20% charge whereas the AGMs were only 50%. This means that we can stay in the bush for longer even if we have a few cloudy days. As for the price Chris, well I guess time will tell but I'm an 83yrs old bloke and, with a 5yr warranty am I really going to worry mate?!!!!!!!!!
Best wishes to all and have a great Christmas.

Phil,you seem to be an erudite individual,with a clear mind,a positive attitude,and you keep active.You'll live to 100! All the best for Xmas.Cheers

Whenarewethere · Guru

I have 4 x 26AH gel batteries hidden in corners around the car. 1040amps 5 seconds or 380amps for 5 minutes. Ideal for jump starting myself or others.

I have run mine down 80 - 90% half a dozen times, absolutely no issues. The batteries usually run the fridge at 15AH per 24 hours.

boab · Senior Member

80 to 90 % discharge on a agm or gel battery would measure about 10.5 to 11 volts good luck trying to run an engle on those volts where a lithium at the 80% discharge is still upwards of 12 .7 volts and you can argue all you like lithium holds much higher voltage which in my opinion is another plus to using them

Magnarc · Guru

Hi Chris appreciate your comments but, as you well know, it is sometimes difficult to get the message across! Vbg!!!! Merry Christmas to you and the family.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

What is the point of the 70% thats left???

No point. Just use it all,, whenever you need to, just like a lithium. In fact you can run that AGM down to ZERO (10.5V) on a regular basis without doing it ANY harm at all, just so long as you bring it back to full charge on a regular basis. This 50% usable capacity belief for AGMs is pure rubbish.

In that regard, using the full 100% of the capacity of an AGM has less risk than doing the same with a lithium.

Cheers,

Peter

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

boab wrote:
80 to 90 % discharge on a agm or gel battery would measure about 10.5 to 11 volts good luck trying to run an engle on those volts where a lithium at the 80% discharge is still upwards of 12 .7 volts and you can argue all you like lithium holds much higher voltage which in my opinion is another plus to using them

"Zero" SOC with an AGM is 10.5V. The Danfoss compressor fridges will continue to run at lower voltage than that.

Engles have a low voltage cut out that switches the compressor off at 11.5V.

Yes, the lithium voltage is higher at low SOC.

Cheers,

Peter

Whenarewethere · Guru

There are 3 cut off voltages on my 28L Waeco fridge, 10.1, 11.4 & 11.8v.

Ram Man · Veteran Member

Hi Magnarc,

Thanks for the post on where to buy some awesome batteries.

Greg 1 · Guru

Just my experience with lithium. I am involved with racecars as a hobby. As you would imagine we are always looking for ways to reduce weight in the car. As Colin Chapman, the founder of Lotus once said, Big hp makes you quick in a straight line, but light weight makes you quick everywhere. We were using either small Odessey or Full River AGM batteries, but when lithium came along with a weight that was a quarter of the AGM's and much smaller, we thought it gods gift to race car builders. Unfortunately they have proven not to last anywhere near the life we were getting out of the AGM's and a couple of fires have been put down to the lithium batteries. We have gone back to Full River AGM's Admittedly a race car is a very harsh environment for a battery with a lot of heat and vibration so it's testing regime is extreme, but it would make me think long and hard before I put a lithium in my van.

Mike Harding · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
Just my experience with lithium. I am involved with racecars as a hobby. [snip]

A most interesting post, thank you.

dorian · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
... when lithium came along with a weight that was a quarter of the AGM's and much smaller, we thought it gods gift to race car builders. Unfortunately they have proven not to last anywhere near the life we were getting out of the AGM's and a couple of fires have been put down to the lithium batteries.

Were you using LiFePO4?