Average Payload question -

mykringo · Member

Average Payload question -

Whenarewethere · Guru

https://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t65110614/towing-weights-again/

mykringo · Member

I should have made myself a bit clearer, I have made myself completely familiar with GVMs, GTMs, ATMs, GCMs, BTCs, TBWs etc etc so no this is not another towing weights question. The van we are looking at has 4.5 Tonne suspension although is rated at 3500 ATM to comply with the landcruiser BTC rating however with a Lovells GVM/GCM upgrade the 200 series LC BTC can be increased from 3500 to 4000 kG and the van's ATM can then be upgraded to 4000 kG giving another 500 kG payload capacity - I do not really want to go down this path if the current payload of the van (236 kG after water tanks are filled) will be sufficient for 2 people for a few months

-- Edited by mykringo on Monday 2nd of March 2020 11:10:48 AM

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Welcome to the gang mykringo, enjoy here and out in the playground.

You are a game man asking a question like that biggrin It's like opening a can if worms biggrin I suggest you hold on tight and get ready for the fights biggrin

I'll sit on the side with some

Keep Safe on the roads and out there.

mykringo · Member

Thanks for the heads up, I thought it might be going to be a bit of a rough ride after the first response, one newbie's innocent question is obviously someone else's "on no here we go again!!!!" question. I should say I did search the forum for any previous posts on payloads but couldn't find the info i was after

outlaw40 · Guru

Nobody can really tell you what you are going to carry but keep in mind unless you are going very remote you don't need to carry supplies for the whole trip ( something I still have trouble getting my wife to understand ) Suggest you load it to go away , keeping to a minimum and weigh it then you will know where you stand.

mykringo · Member

Thanks for that, this is the type of information I was hoping to get smile

yobarr · Guru

mykringo wrote:
I should have made myself a bit clearer, I have made myself completely familiar with GVMs, GTMs, ATMs, GCMs, BTCs, TBWs etc etc so no this is not another towing weights question. The van we are looking at has 4.5 Tonne suspension although is rated at 3500 ATM to comply with the landcruiser BTC rating however with a Lovells GVM/GCM upgrade the 200 series LC BTC can be increased from 3500 to 4000 kG and the van's ATM can then be upgraded to 4000 kG giving another 500 kG payload capacity - I do not really want to go down this path if the current payload of the van (236 kG after water tanks are filled) will be sufficient for 2 people for a few months

-- Edited by mykringo on Monday 2nd of March 2020 11:10:48 AM

With LC200 pretty sure you can't have 4000kg GVM AND 4000kg towing......off top of my head,as I am not at home,max ATM with 4000kg GVM is 3500kg. And dont even think you'll ever get 40000kg on the car,as maximum rear axle capacity (new rating) is still only 2100kg,meaning you would need to get 1900kg on the car's front axle which is impossible.And can you even begin to imagine the stresses on the chassis with a 1200kg WDH creating what is effectively a stiff-arm from your car's front axle,through the hitch point,to the van's axle group.Probably OK on the freeway,but that's it.And to answer your question about 236kg payload,it ain't enough.On paper,I can carry waaaay over 1000kg,but even with that payload allowance,when I set sail, I am right at 3150kg GTM, although I am allowed 3200kg.Monty is the man for best advice on this topic,I'd say? Cheers

P.S You can tow a 4500kg ATM van with your car (any car) provided you do not load that van beyond the car's BTC.

Greg 1 · Guru

As you have said it is the old string question. For us that amount would be sufficient and is similar to the load we operate with. But we are conscious of what we take. I am always on the lookout for stuff we don't use and don't take it next trip. We now have it down to a fairly fine art when we pack the van. As previously stated, unless going into very remote areas we keep our food levels down and buy local and as required.. If you are crossing state borders food is often taken off you anyway so we look to avoid that.

Bobdown · Guru

mykringo wrote:
I should have made myself a bit clearer, I have made myself completely familiar with GVMs, GTMs, ATMs, GCMs, BTCs, TBWs etc etc so no this is not another towing weights question. The van we are looking at has 4.5 Tonne suspension although is rated at 3500 ATM to comply with the landcruiser BTC rating however with a Lovells GVM/GCM upgrade the 200 series LC BTC can be increased from 3500 to 4000 kG and the van's ATM can then be upgraded to 4000 kG giving another 500 kG payload capacity - I do not really want to go down this path if the current payload of the van (236 kG after water tanks are filled) will be sufficient for 2 people for a few months

Hi, you are certainly looking at the top of the weight division for a caravan, ATM 3500 kg, and not much payload (236 kg) for personal use, i doubt if we ever pack for a trip under 400 kg in the van and another 100 kg in the car.

My van has a Tare of 2500 kg and ATM of 3200 kg, so a bit of leeway after filling with water, which is what we require for long trips.

You going to be on the limit every time you stock up, better to be a 100 kg or so under ATM, I would weigh the combo a few times to get it precise.

Cheers Bob

Whenarewethere · Guru

236kg is not enough in my car let along a caravan. That's why I gave the link, down the page is data from a spreadsheet of every item we put in our car.

It may give you a starting point so you can add up all thing you want to taken, & remove all the things you do not need.

oldbloke · Guru

Hi Michael ,

Have you been over a weigh bridge yet? If not suggest you do so. There are a few free ones in Vic. (Vic roads) Not sure about other states.

I went through this exercise about 6 months ago whilst on a 6 week trip.
I weighed the ute & van and our pay load in the van was 462 kg (empty water tanks.) I was surprised but with a few changes I think I'm down to about 400kg (guess) and now struggling to further reduce the weight.

This will allow only 90 kg of water in van. (490 kg van payload) But about to add about 12 kg in the form of a diesel heater and fuel. LOL

My strategy will be to carry additional 50 kg of water in the ute. (plenty of capacity there) Then top up from there as required while camped.

So I imagine you will struggle to achieve 236 kg. But good luck. Less is more.

Just in additional note. ( might get corrected here)

I think what happens is when the van is weighed after manufacture to provide a tare it is totally empty. Then when they hand it over they have added the TV, mattress and perhaps a few other items. Before you know it 50 to 100kg has been added and you are starting out thinking you can carry x amount and you just can't.

A couple of things people forget that is not included in the tare are: Gas, (16 kg) & water in the hot water system. (In our case 28 litres) Over 44 kg before you load up.

-- Edited by oldbloke on Monday 2nd of March 2020 01:45:37 PM

mykringo · Member

Thanks Yobar,

Lovell's do a GVM and Braked towing upgrade for the 200 series LC - GVM increase from 3350 to 3845 and Braked Towing capacity from 3500 to 4000 and if done pre-registration will have National compliance plate. The caravan we are intending to buy can be upgraded from 3500 to 4000 kG due to already having 4500 rated suspension so payload of van goes up by 500 kG however it is a bit of a costly exercise

Noelpolar · Veteran Member

When I go away by myself for a few weeks.... 200kg about does it (not including water etc as you have mentioned)..... when wife and I head off for a few months inc. two little dogs we need another 150kg in the van.... my wife brings lots of prepared food, frozen dog food etc etc..... ... so I use my 600kg payload. Mostly we always travel with tanks full so can stop where we kike.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Legal does not mean safe. In my view, 3.5T is not safe behind any Landcruiser, no matter what the mods or what the paper work says. You need a more capable truck for those weights.
And, there is no such thing as "average" payload. What suits some will not suit others.
We typically carry 280L of fuel plus 280L of water plus about 600 or 700kg of other "stuff" (and we are still about 400 to 500kg under our legal max). That is the benefit of an appropriate vehicle and no towing.
Cheers,
Peter

montie · Guru

mykringo wrote:
I should have made myself a bit clearer, I have made myself completely familiar with GVMs, GTMs, ATMs, GCMs, BTCs, TBWs etc etc so no this is not another towing weights question. The van we are looking at has 4.5 Tonne suspension although is rated at 3500 ATM to comply with the landcruiser BTC rating however with a Lovells GVM/GCM upgrade the 200 series LC BTC can be increased from 3500 to 4000 kG and the van's ATM can then be upgraded to 4000 kG giving another 500 kG payload capacity - I do not really want to go down this path if the current payload of the van (236 kG after water tanks are filled) will be sufficient for 2 people for a few months

-- Edited by mykringo on Monday 2nd of March 2020 11:10:48 AM

Wow you are certainly at the top end of the weight spectrum!

I will not comment on your weight suggestions other than to say that once the measured weight of your van exceeds 3.5 tonne there will be some modifications to make it compliant. I don't think 236kg is nearly enough on a rig that size and if you are going to travel with empty tanks make sure it will not have an effect on your ball download.

It sounds like it's a very heavy van with only 491kg of payload and a 3500kg ATM.

Dhutime · Senior Member

Have read sometime ago that a couple would need about 500kg of: clothing, bedding, food , beer and wine, pots and pans, fridge freezer food, books ect . I thinks thats Probably close to the mark .
My suggestion would be to upgrade your towing capacity. Expensive yes but safer in the long term.
Dhutime

mykringo · Member

Dhutime wrote:
Have read sometime ago that a couple would need about 500kg of: clothing, bedding, food , beer and wine, pots and pans, fridge freezer food, books ect . I thinks thats Probably close to the mark .
My suggestion would be to upgrade your towing capacity. Expensive yes but safer in the long term.
Dhutime

Thanks for your comment, I agree that the upgrade looks like the best option that will give us another 500 kG payload so even with 255 kG in the water tanks that will leave approx 730 kG for food, clothes etc

Nevd · Senior Member

Definitely a "How long is a piece of string? question. I've weighed everything - Here's my list. It may be of assistance to give you a general idea.

Alloy boxes	15
DCDC Charger & Wiring	5
Water @1 kg/l	180
Annex & Deflap	10
Hoses Pegs Rope Lead Mat	19
Chocks Table Clamps Ladder	15
Tools	15
Interior Utensils & linen	45
BBQ	13
Shade	15
Gas	18
Lights, TV	10
Grey water tank	5
ESC	5
Solar blanket	10
Satellite tv kit	15
Generator & fuel	35
Hot water tank water	23
Other	4
Subtotal for permanent stuff	457

Clothes	40
Toiletries/cleaners	5
Drinks/milk	40
food	40
Dog food & beds if taken	15
other	10
Total Variable	150

Overall Total 607

It adds up quickly.

Because my payload was 500kg, an ATM upgrade was necessary. You may not require all of those things. For example, leaving the Genny and sat TV dish at home takes off 50kg.

yobarr · Guru

mykringo wrote:
Thanks Yobar,
Lovell's do a GVM and Braked towing upgrade for the 200 series LC - GVM increase from 3350 to 3845 and Braked Towing capacity from 3500 to 4000 and if done pre-registration will have National compliance plate. The caravan we are intending to buy can be upgraded from 3500 to 4000 kG due to already having 4500 rated suspension so payload of van goes up by 500 kG however it is a bit of a costly exercise

Be aware that the 3850kg GVM upgrade increases your car's rear axle capacity from 1950kg to only 2000kg.....a miserable 50kg! The front axle is then rated at 1800kg,but there is NO chance of ever reaching that figure...none. At my GCM of 6800kg I can get only 1350kg onto the front axle of the car,even though wheelbase is over 300mm greater than yours and my TBO roughly 300mm less.Rear axle is 2300kg and GTM (weight on van wheels) is 3150kg. With 10% ball weight (350kg) my ATM is 3500kg.It must be noted that a WDH does NOT change towball weight,but simply takes a bit of weight off the car's rear axle and transfers SOME of that weight to the car's front axle. However,it also transfers weight to the van's axle group....usually about 70% to the front axle,and 30% to the van,dependent in TBO and wheelbase. Because the van is already at its 3500kg ATM,the transferred weight will make the van overloaded,unsafe and uninsured. And there is little chance that you will be able to SAFELY tow 4000kg ATM,as with the generally accepted 10% towball weight,you would have 400kg on the ball,which gives you over 600kg EXTRA weight on your rear axle.Add 138kg fuel and a box of beer,and you're in trouble. No matter how much some may duck,dodge,weave and prevaricate,there is no way that an LC200 can SAFELY tow more than 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Please feel free me PM me if you would like to discuss details.Cheers

Radar · Guru

mykringo wrote:
Hi everyone, with the greater awareness nowadays of not exceeding caravan payloads/GTMs I was after some idea of how much load (on average) a couple would need to carry in their vans say for a few months on the road. I know this could be a "how long is a piece of string" question but I would appreciate feedback on other peoples experiences. The van we are looking at will allow us 236 kG AFTER filling up the 255 litre water tanks - I have noted previous comments that perhaps water tanks should not need to always filled up whilst driving which will give us greater payload capacity.
thanks in advance

Hi there,

I was at home doing some preparations to go away, the Ute was fuelled and mostly what was on board stays on there, the caravan had fresh linen water tanks filled and cleaned ready to go.

To complete the job to go was add food, clothes and personal items. The ute needed my 4wd box, tool kit and portable frig.

I needed to move the caravan out of the road, so while it was hitched up to the car, I drove to the local weighbridge and got 2 weights which I needed. Car gross weight and the caravan gross weight.

Back at home every basket full that was placed in the caravan was counted, remembering it was food, clothes and personal items totalling about 100kgs. Our total there was about 30kgs below the gvm of the caravan.

The ute I added about 60kgs still below the cars gvm.

Food, clothes and personn items for 2 people in the caravan, 100 kgs.

The ute, chairs, tools, odds & ends box, fish stuff, portable frig etc I would carry in there about 140kgs.

Our gross is around 5600kgs with a working Tare of around 5360kgs.

Hope that give you idea how to prepare to go.

Eaglemax · Guru

NevD said Definitely a "How long is a piece of string? question. I've weighed everything - Here's my list. It may be of assistance to give you a general idea. Alloy boxes 15 DCDC Charger & Wiring 5 Water @1 kg/l 180 Annex & Deflap 10 Hoses Pegs Rope Lead Mat 19 Chocks Table Clamps Ladder 15 Tools 15 Interior Utensils & linen 45 BBQ 13 Shade 15 Gas 18 Lights, TV 10 Grey water tank 5 ESC 5 Solar blanket 10 Satellite tv kit 15 Generator & fuel 35 Hot water tank water 23 Other 4 Subtotal for permanent stuff 457 Clothes 40 Toiletries/cleaners 5 Drinks/milk 40 food 40 Dog food & beds if taken 15 other 10 Total Variable 150 Overall Total 607 It adds up quickly. Because my payload was 500kg, an ATM upgrade was necessary. You may not require all of those things. For example, leaving the Genny and sat TV dish at home takes off 50kg Gee Nev, over half a ton of stuff- I dont get it. Yes I know, everyone is different but with your list I took off 270kg without trying. Tony

mykringo · Member

Thanks everyone for some very informative responses. It certainly has been an eyeopener and I think rather than have to be too stressed about having to carefully weigh every item that's going in both the van and tow car I will lash out and get the GVM/ATM/BTC upgrade. This will give me an extra 500kg in the van as well as 500kG in the tow car even so I do not intend to throw everything including the kitchen sink into the 2 of them.

I think Outlaw40s suggestion to "... load it to go away , keeping to a minimum and weigh it then you will know where you stand...." is a good one. A friend of ours suggested having some local practice runs before doing the big lap and I guess that is when we can fine tune what we need and get some weighing done,
thanks again to everyone,
Michael Ringland

PeterInSa · Guru

Re Yobarr's Comment above, I would be looking at a different caravan with a lower Tare and more payload capacity.

Nevd · Senior Member

Eaglemax wrote:
NevD said Definitely a "How long is a piece of string? question. I've weighed everything - Here's my list. It may be of assistance to give you a general idea. Alloy boxes 15 DCDC Charger & Wiring 5 Water @1 kg/l 180 Annex & Deflap 10 Hoses Pegs Rope Lead Mat 19 Chocks Table Clamps Ladder 15 Tools 15 Interior Utensils & linen 45 BBQ 13 Shade 15 Gas 18 Lights, TV 10 Grey water tank 5 ESC 5 Solar blanket 10 Satellite tv kit 15 Generator & fuel 35 Hot water tank water 23 Other 4 Subtotal for permanent stuff 457 Clothes 40 Toiletries/cleaners 5 Drinks/milk 40 food 40 Dog food & beds if taken 15 other 10 Total Variable 150 Overall Total 607 It adds up quickly. Because my payload was 500kg, an ATM upgrade was necessary. You may not require all of those things. For example, leaving the Genny and sat TV dish at home takes off 50kg Gee Nev, over half a ton of stuff- I dont get it. Yes I know, everyone is different but with your list I took off 270kg without trying. Tony

Yeah Tony, it would be easy for me too - just leave the wife & dogs at home smile . Usually we don't take as much, but that's our list for remote camping more than a few days.

montie · Guru

PeterInSa wrote:
Re Yobarr's Comment above, I would be looking at a different caravan with a lower Tare and more payload capacity.

I'll second that!

Plus towing a 4 tonne van with a cruiser .is not a good idea

KJB · Guru

You are really getting into the weights that require a truck (Hino, Isuzu etc...). Loading to the "maximum plus" is not a good recipe for drive train and suspension durability......apart from the safety aspect.

yobarr · Guru

montie wrote:
PeterInSa wrote:
Re Yobarr's Comment above, I would be looking at a different caravan with a lower Tare and more payload capacity.
I'll second that!
Plus towing a 4 tonne van with a cruiser .is not a good idea

Peter,Nev,Montie and Kerry.You may be interested to know that I have sent a PM to Mike,the OP,explaining the upgrading situation,and the limitations. I also have offered to discuss his options with him,but at the end of the day,we now have done all we can to help prevent him from making a big,and VERY expensive mistake.Whether or not he takes our advice is yet to be seen,but I wish him only the best.However,I will say again that an LC200 cannot safely tow more than 3000kg as a pig trailer. Period.Cheers

yobarr · Guru

Deleted

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 4th of March 2020 12:35:18 PM

yobarr · Guru

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