BBQ on Gas Bayonet

peter_s · Veteran Member

BBQ on Gas Bayonet

Eaglemax · Guru

peter_s wrote:
Called in to CAMEC the other day looking at gas bayonet fitting and hose to connect bbq. was informed that as of Nov2019 ALL fittings using the gas bayonet fitting on a van must have a gas flame failure fitting.(SEE PHOTO)

Apparently Weber Q's do not comply with this new rule (CAMEC says).
Better check out your appliances to ensure compliance

Hi Peter, thanks for your post.

I'm no expert on these regulations but do have some regulation interpretation experience so after a few hundred views and no replies, I'll stick my neck out and try to make sense of this. I cannot read your attachment.

There is an interesting article on this here

https://rvdaily.com.au/caravan-barbecue-legal/

If I read correctly (happy to be contradicted) this article points out

LP Gas installations in caravans and boats for non-propulsive purposes clause 6.3 states all appliances shall be fitted with flame safeguard systems to all burners.
- a key word is "installation" a bbq is not an installation unless installed as a fixture.
If the BBQ is fixed to a caravan or on a product such as a slide out, the BBQ is deemed to be a part of the installation and must have flame safeguard.
- the key word here is "fixed". If you fixed a suit case type of Weber BBQ to a slide out then it is fixed and needs flame out safety ability.
Having a gas bayonet is legal if fitted by a licensed gas fitter. Appliances with flame safeguards can legally be run from that bayonet fitting. In the case of some popular barbecues on the market they do not, so legally they cannot be used off the bayonet fitting.
- the key word here is "some" . Some at the moment if you buy a BBQ make sure it is suitable to operate off a bayonet fitting. This is a grey area.
The report continues on: The solution is to have a BBQ that has flame safeguard or to not fix the BBQ to the caravan or a product such as a slide e.g. supply loose, connect via a gas bottle directly e.g. the gas bottle sitting on the ground and have labels to ensure the gas bottle does not get fitted into compartments where BBQ is.
- key words again "or to not fix the BBQ to the caravan"
The report also states that: Please be aware that domestic BBQs do not require a flame failure device however if these are installed into a caravan they are required to have flame failure with the above requirements.
- key words "however if these are installed" there is that word again. I start to get the distinct impression we are talking about installed BBQ's not ones commonly used connected into a bayonet fitting for use outdoors.
Each gas appliance in a caravan must have a shut off device accessible in case of an appliance leak. The caravan-mounted appliances also require a flame safeguard system, which is a Thermocouple system that stops the flow of gas if the flame goes out for any reason preventing the chance of a gas fire.
- key word "in a caravan"

Organisations are seeking clarification so the jury is still out but I wouldnt panick. It seems clear that we are talking about "fixed" bbq's mounted inside a caravan which includes a slide out as a slide out is an extension unit attached to the caravan.

These are my opinions only and no liability will be accepted.

Tony

Cupie · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
peter_s wrote:
Called in to CAMEC the other day looking at gas bayonet fitting and hose to connect bbq. was informed that as of Nov2019 ALL fittings using the gas bayonet fitting on a van must have a gas flame failure fitting.(SEE PHOTO)

Apparently Weber Q's do not comply with this new rule (CAMEC says).
Better check out your appliances to ensure compliance
Hi Peter, thanks for your post.
I'm no expert on these regulations but do have some regulation interpretation experience so after a few hundred views and no replies, I'll stick my neck out and try to make sense of this. I cannot read your attachment.
There is an interesting article on this here
https://rvdaily.com.au/caravan-barbecue-legal/
If I read correctly (happy to be contradicted) this article points out
LP Gas installations in caravans and boats for non-propulsive purposes clause 6.3 states all appliances shall be fitted with flame safeguard systems to all burners.
- a key word is "installation" a bbq is not an installation unless installed as a fixture.
If the BBQ is fixed to a caravan or on a product such as a slide out, the BBQ is deemed to be a part of the installation and must have flame safeguard.
- the key word here is "fixed". If you fixed a suit case type of Weber BBQ to a slide out then it is fixed and needs flame out safety ability.
Having a gas bayonet is legal if fitted by a licensed gas fitter. Appliances with flame safeguards can legally be run from that bayonet fitting. In the case of some popular barbecues on the market they do not, so legally they cannot be used off the bayonet fitting.
- the key word here is "some" . Some at the moment if you buy a BBQ make sure it is suitable to operate off a bayonet fitting. This is a grey area.
The report continues on: The solution is to have a BBQ that has flame safeguard or to not fix the BBQ to the caravan or a product such as a slide e.g. supply loose, connect via a gas bottle directly e.g. the gas bottle sitting on the ground and have labels to ensure the gas bottle does not get fitted into compartments where BBQ is.
- key words again "or to not fix the BBQ to the caravan"
The report also states that: Please be aware that domestic BBQs do not require a flame failure device however if these are installed into a caravan they are required to have flame failure with the above requirements.
- key words "however if these are installed" there is that word again. I start to get the distinct impression we are talking about installed BBQ's not ones commonly used connected into a bayonet fitting for use outdoors.
Each gas appliance in a caravan must have a shut off device accessible in case of an appliance leak. The caravan-mounted appliances also require a flame safeguard system, which is a Thermocouple system that stops the flow of gas if the flame goes out for any reason preventing the chance of a gas fire.
- key word "in a caravan"
Organisations are seeking clarification so the jury is still out but I wouldnt panick. It seems clear that we are talking about "fixed" bbq's mounted inside a caravan which includes a slide out as a slide out is an extension unit attached to the caravan.
These are my opinions only and no liability will be accepted.
Tony

The discussion centres on BBQs connected via a bayonet connection ..

but ..

in reference to the section of the previous post that I have highlighted ..

How does this effect the fixed gas ovens in many Vans. I don't think that mine has a flame out device, or a shut off device .. except at the bottle.

Corndoggy · Senior Member

Must be thousands of appliances out there that don't comply to new or current regulations. If a new regulation comes into affect does that mean all these appliances are now unusable. Surely there is a grandfather rule which would be covering things like this. If there isn't all that means is a bottle on the ground and connect with the standard hose with no fixing screws the appliance and problem solved. In real terms has it changed the safety asspect in a great way. With either connection, usage would be the same, disconection and storage would be the same. This is based on my camper trailer setup.

Greg 1 · Guru

I can understand the requirements for any appliance actually mounted to the caravan, but the connecting up of a portable bar b que outside the van, whether to a bottle or a bayonet on the van really doesn't make sense. The bayonet is in reality just an extension hose from the caravans bottles so what is the difference plugging into the bayonet or lifting the bottle out of the rack and connecting to that. The appliance is out doors and so any gas leak is going to have the same effect whether its connected to bayonet or bottle.

Eaglemax · Guru

Corndoggy wrote:
Must be thousands of appliances out there that don't comply to new or current regulations. If a new regulation comes into affect does that mean all these appliances are now unusable. Surely there is a grandfather rule which would be covering things like this. If there isn't all that means is a bottle on the ground and connect with the standard hose with no fixing screws the appliance and problem solved. In real terms has it changed the safety asspect in a great way. With either connection, usage would be the same, disconection and storage would be the same. This is based on my camper trailer setup.

Best to check out the relevant authority in your state Corndoggy.

What I do know is, take for example my new home made caravan. I wanted a Lido Junior stove top. There are three models- marine that is expensive, the standard for outdoor use and the flame safe version suitable for use inside the caravan which I purchased to screw down onto the kitchen bench. Had I purchased the type without flame safe and used it inside the van in any way (or on a slide out kitchen) I'd be contravening the laws.

Let's compare another law. Instantaneous LPG hot water systems. I had one in my 20ft 1977 Franklin way back in 1985. They were outlawed around 1992 for use inside a caravan. The same systems are now easily available from many manufacturers (Joolca Hottap etc) but can only be used outside the perimeter of the caravan.

I'm uncertain if a pre 1992 caravan with internally mounted LPG hot water system (instantaneous) would still be legal as it was installed before the law was implemented.

Anyone know?

Tony

-- Edited by Eaglemax on Sunday 26th of January 2020 11:55:38 AM

Eaglemax · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
I can understand the requirements for any appliance actually mounted to the caravan, but the connecting up of a portable bar b que outside the van, whether to a bottle or a bayonet on the van really doesn't make sense. The bayonet is in reality just an extension hose from the caravans bottles so what is the difference plugging into the bayonet or lifting the bottle out of the rack and connecting to that. The appliance is out doors and so any gas leak is going to have the same effect whether its connected to bayonet or bottle.

Hi Greg1

Good question and it is at the heart of the controversy. I think you are refering to this quote below. I question the quote actually because- is it refering to say a LPG BBQ being used inside a caravan if there is a bayonet fitting there? Or are they talking about a bayonet fitting on the outside of the caravan (or inside the LPG cabinet) available to connect a bbq for outdoor use? I'm not sure. The regulation changes seem to be more directed towards bbq's and stoves used inside caravans.

"

Having a gas bayonet is legal if fitted by a licensed gas fitter. Appliances with flame safeguards can legally be run from that bayonet fitting. In the case of some popular barbecues on the market they do not, so legally they cannot be used off the bayonet fitting.

Eaglemax · Guru

I've just read this website-

www.dnrme.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/1431660/gas-safety-compliance-caravans-rv.pdf

It is for Queensland. It clearly states that portable and mobile gas appliances are

"ensuring any gas appliance that connected to the gas system, or uses gas from the vehicle
gas system includes a flame safeguard system.
Note: Including appliances connected by a bayonet or quick connect device; for example,
domestic barbeques provided as optional extras, whether stored or affixed to the vehicle."

I dont know if that is only for Qld or national. It still however does not specifically mean outdoor bbq's. eg it is still murky. Are they refering to a slide out bbq?
Tony

-- Edited by Eaglemax on Sunday 26th of January 2020 12:29:20 PM

Bicyclecamper · Guru

fIf it is country wide. are they going to ban and order to remove gas stove and ovens, that are in older vans, that don't have the flame safe guard system. I have a flame out system, which automatically turns of the gas at the bottle, if the flame goes out or their is a leak. I bought it as a separate safety device for my gas bottle.

-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Sunday 26th of January 2020 02:01:30 PM

Eaglemax · Guru

Thanks bc Cant you tell us how much you paid and where you purchased it?

Corndoggy · Senior Member

My cook top on the slide out kitchen has flame sensors on each burner and does connect to a bayonet fitting as done at the time of manufacture. This issue began to arise a few years ago as to if it complied or not.. A quick fix for some was simple. Remove the fixing screws from the appliance and it was no longer a permanent fixture in the camper attached to permanent gas piping. Cannot say if other manufacturers used cooktops that had flame sensors on them, maybe they didint and that was causing an issue. Have noticed now that a lot of this style kitchens are now permanently connected with flexable hose that runs in a track system. That problem solved. Only thing is now you can't see the flexable hose for signs of wear as easily. Still left the problem of the bbq being connect into permanent piping by a bayonet fitting, even though that fitting was installed by a registered gas fitter for that purpose. You can't have 1 being ok and not the other. So flame sensors on all things connected to permanent piping by a bayonet fitting it is. Thing is with me, the bbq will be used in the same position, connected not by a bayonet fitting to gas bottles on the camper, but a gas bottle and a standard pol hose sitting beside it. The Joolca will also be connected to a gas bottle sitting beside it. Has it really made any difference in the end.

Possum3 · Guru

I use 2 X Gas Fuse (fitted at LPG Bottles) www.bunnings.com.au/bbq-buddy-gas-safety-shut-off-valve_p3230026 only $15.00 each

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

"100% Emergency Gas Shut Off in the event of a major leak or regulator failure"
NOT equivalent to a flame failure at all.
A "gas fuse" can not know if the flame is burning or not.
Cheers,
Peter

PetenSue · Veteran Member

Cupie wrote:
Eaglemax wrote:
peter_s wrote:
Called in to CAMEC the other day looking at gas bayonet fitting and hose to connect bbq. was informed that as of Nov2019 ALL fittings using the gas bayonet fitting on a van must have a gas flame failure fitting.(SEE PHOTO)

Apparently Weber Q's do not comply with this new rule (CAMEC says).
Better check out your appliances to ensure compliance
Hi Peter, thanks for your post.
I'm no expert on these regulations but do have some regulation interpretation experience so after a few hundred views and no replies, I'll stick my neck out and try to make sense of this. I cannot read your attachment.
There is an interesting article on this here
https://rvdaily.com.au/caravan-barbecue-legal/
If I read correctly (happy to be contradicted) this article points out
LP Gas installations in caravans and boats for non-propulsive purposes clause 6.3 states all appliances shall be fitted with flame safeguard systems to all burners.
- a key word is "installation" a bbq is not an installation unless installed as a fixture.
If the BBQ is fixed to a caravan or on a product such as a slide out, the BBQ is deemed to be a part of the installation and must have flame safeguard.
- the key word here is "fixed". If you fixed a suit case type of Weber BBQ to a slide out then it is fixed and needs flame out safety ability.
Having a gas bayonet is legal if fitted by a licensed gas fitter. Appliances with flame safeguards can legally be run from that bayonet fitting. In the case of some popular barbecues on the market they do not, so legally they cannot be used off the bayonet fitting.
- the key word here is "some" . Some at the moment if you buy a BBQ make sure it is suitable to operate off a bayonet fitting. This is a grey area.
The report continues on: The solution is to have a BBQ that has flame safeguard or to not fix the BBQ to the caravan or a product such as a slide e.g. supply loose, connect via a gas bottle directly e.g. the gas bottle sitting on the ground and have labels to ensure the gas bottle does not get fitted into compartments where BBQ is.
- key words again "or to not fix the BBQ to the caravan"
The report also states that: Please be aware that domestic BBQs do not require a flame failure device however if these are installed into a caravan they are required to have flame failure with the above requirements.
- key words "however if these are installed" there is that word again. I start to get the distinct impression we are talking about installed BBQ's not ones commonly used connected into a bayonet fitting for use outdoors.
Each gas appliance in a caravan must have a shut off device accessible in case of an appliance leak. The caravan-mounted appliances also require a flame safeguard system, which is a Thermocouple system that stops the flow of gas if the flame goes out for any reason preventing the chance of a gas fire.
- key word "in a caravan"
Organisations are seeking clarification so the jury is still out but I wouldnt panick. It seems clear that we are talking about "fixed" bbq's mounted inside a caravan which includes a slide out as a slide out is an extension unit attached to the caravan.
These are my opinions only and no liability will be accepted.
Tony
The discussion centres on BBQs connected via a bayonet connection ..
but ..
in reference to the section of the previous post that I have highlighted ..
How does this effect the fixed gas ovens in many Vans. I don't think that mine has a flame out device, or a shut off device .. except at the bottle.

If you oven doesnt have flame out protection I would call it a bomb. Too dangerous to use. Why would such an oven even be on the market? Caravan, household or commercial. It should have flame out protection. If you think Im wrong you are quite welcome to blow yourself and your family up to prove it !!! Regards Pete

Greg 1 · Guru

The way to check if your oven and hotplates has a flame out fitted is if you have to hold the control knob in for a minute or so after lighting it. This then means that it heats the thermocouple and allows the gas to flow without the override of holding the knob in. Unless you have a pretty old van, most van gas appliances have had this feature for quite some years.

Corndoggy · Senior Member

I'll refer back to the first post, the picture and what the first paragraph states. If it is correct, doesn't matter how, where or or what is connected, it has to have flame failure as it becomes part of the installation. Doesn't matter if it's fixed or not, doesn't matter if it's on a 1mtr or 3 mtr hose, doesn't matter if it's inside or outside an annexe or cover. Anything connected to it is part of the installation. Now I'll ask, how many caravaners and campers out there have got a gas certification that has included anything that could be connected to a bayonet fitting? I'm pretty sure caravan manufacturers and caravan/camping stores as well as bbq shops, Bunnings etc. will all be selling you something that doesn't comply. And the stupid thing is a gas bottle sitting beside your bag that doesn't comply is no problem.

Jason F · Veteran Member

All very interesting. I'm no expert either, but I do write technical standards for a living. AS 5601.2 was updated this year. The standard has no legal standing in its own right unless adopted by a Government or other authority having jurisdiction over relevant installations (whatever that means). The requirements do not apply retrospectively. One would have to compare old versions of the standard to the current version to see which requirements apply to ones own installation build date. Clause 6.4 is an absolute stand-alone requirement: Flame safeguard system: All appliances shall be fitted with flameguard systems to all burners. NOTE This requirement also applies to appliances connected to quick connect devices. I read this to mean that a bayonet connection is a quick-connect device. Another one of the changes is that a shut off valve must be provided prior to the inlet connection of each appliance. I can understand the importance of this. It does not seem to say how far prior (1m, 4m ..... ?). Thats a plus, as it allows some flexibility. A quick-connect device shall not be installed inside a caravan. Makes sense. Standard goes on to also say: an annex or awning in the caravan design may be considered an internal space (i.e. as if the gas appliance is inside the caravan .....). I've had mine moved outside the camper. But wait there's more: NOTE A quick-connect device is an acceptable means of isolation for appliances operated outside a caravan or boat however a separate means of isolation is also recommended. Hence if there is a bayonet fitting on the outside, it is also a suitable means of isolation. There are so many requirements, its hard to know where to start eg: all piping must be supported within 150mm of every bend, elbow, tee etc ..... ..........

dieseltojo · Senior Member

Yep this is a case of maybe a well meaning person has done the reading of a law or reg. It is a bush lawyer giving unproven findings on legislated regulations. and most likely innocently.

Then they take a pic of an external connection and run with it.

The very first line if it is a correct reading says "In a caravan". A barby externally is not in a caravan for a start. Any thing in a van becomes part of the whole.

External connections are not. Unless you light the thing and chuck it in the front boot....But I might be wrong too...even being a gas plumber with every certificate going.We can all make an error.

I would be reading the whole section to get a complete picture of all references.

I was innocently responsible for having the current testing of plumbers changed due to simply telling the examiner we we not allowed to fiddle with manufactures critical settings. They had failed mo on the question so I referd them back to the manufacture....I got the answer right probably with a bit of luck.

Possum3 · Guru

I am aware that some Victorian manufacturers do not comply to AS regarding gas fitting and electrical wiring as their Victorian Legislation allows it to happen - major reason for some Company's to set up in Victoria.

The original thread in this post is nearly three years old. There has been several changes in recent times to POL fittings and regulations.

It would be common sense to have flame out device on any appliance connected to your caravan and a cut out valve to isolate appliance/s from gas supply. It is not a matter of what was legal at some time in the past or when caravan was manufactured. If you value your life and that of your loved ones comply to Safety Standards.

Whenarewethere · Guru

A bracket so the BBQ is fixed for transport so it doesn't fly around, but it's removable for use. Like a fridge bracket.

Derek Barnes · Senior Member

Greg 1 wrote:
The way to check if your oven and hotplates has a flame out fitted is if you have to hold the control knob in for a minute or so after lighting it. This then means that it heats the thermocouple and allows the gas to flow without the override of holding the knob in. Unless you have a pretty old van, most van gas appliances have had this feature for quite some years.

Does this feature cut off the gas if the flame subsequently blows out, for example by a strong breeze?

littledick · Senior Member

I have 2 gas lines that fit my portable BBQ. I for use with the bottle and 1 for use with the bayonet.

Which one I use depends where I wish to place the BBQ.

Never heard of mentioned regulation before.

Dick.

kgarnett · Senior Member

Gas Installations Standard (AS/NZS 5601.2:2020) Part 2: LP Gas installations in caravans and boats for non-propulsive purposes.

defines an Appliance as an assembly .. part of which uses gas to produce heat, light, power ... para 1.3.2

and para 6.4 clearly and unambiguously states that :

All appliances shall be fitted with flameguard systems to all burners and that this requirement also applies to appliances connected via bayonets.

Note that para 6.4 states all appliances and does not mention installed or fixed or inside/outside etc. so I assume it must apply to gas barbecues designed for outdoor use.

Ken

oldbloke · Guru

I have a cheap Gas Mate (voyager I think) BBQ. Has a thermocouple, so complies.
Also about 1kg lighter than my BabyQ and importantly fits in the tunnel boot without disassembly.
Having used it for a while now, ive come to the conclusion less effected by wind too.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

I built our OKA camper in 2004.
These requirements for flame failure on all gas appliances were current then.
Cheers,
Peter

Bicyclecamper · Guru

So is law saying that current fridges and stoves, in older vans, that don't have flame failure shutoff is illegal today, so I gather you cannot use your van until these appliance have been replaced. If that is the case, I am glad I sold my van, but I only sold it 6 weeks ago, and I didn't know that was the law, so possibly I could be held accountable for selling the van that had the illegal appliances in it and not informing the new owner, even though I didn't know about the rule.PS> I am in NSW, and NSW does not require you to have a Gas Certificate to sell the van, only a pink slip for roadworthy.

-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Wednesday 10th of November 2021 02:41:52 PM

oldbloke · Guru

Bicycle camper, normally during major work or upgrade the new requirements need to be implemented. In most industries anyway. Gov recognises things don't change over night. But sometimes there is a dead line. I doubt that is the case here.

eianm · Member

did anyone find an aftermarket flame guard/ thermo couple that could be retrofitted to a baby Q?

Corndoggy · Senior Member

Apparently Weber are still in the process of developing a kit to be fitting in their BBQs to comply with these regulations.

oldbloke · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
I have a cheap Gas Mate (voyager I think) BBQ. Has a thermocouple, so complies.
Also about 1kg lighter than my BabyQ and importantly fits in the tunnel boot without disassembly.
Having used it for a while now, ive come to the conclusion less effected by wind too.

Sorry. My mistake. No thermocouple.