When is a van too big :)

denmonkey · Senior Member

When is a van too big :)

yobarr · Guru

pdenmonkey wrote:
this was posted up on a pajero page I visit.
No story to it, so most will just assume the worst but surely there's a bit of an inbalance here. Had to be on the limit or over it.Others may know better than I
Either way, would have been scary.

cheers Brett

Hi Brett....I am pretty sure that this incident occurred on the Kuranda Range,near Cairns,about a year ago.As you suggest,the van looks to be too big for that car,although the water tanks are well positioned.Weight on the rear bar probably did little to help? Hope everybody escaped injury.Cheers.

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 18th of September 2019 07:31:30 PM

Greg 1 · Guru

They are towing with an MUX with a claimed 3 tonne tow capacity. It can be very deceptive just looking at a van and guessing weights. It could quite probably be within the vehicles limits. If its the road I am thinking it is, it can be quite slippery when wet which can be often, and extreme caution needs to be exercised when descending that hill. Unfortunately people don't and often the end result is the picture above. The fairly short wheelbase of the MUX wouldn't have helped either once it started to go.

Eaglemax · Guru

denmonkey wrote:
this was posted up on a pajero page I visit.
No story to it, so most will just assume the worst but surely there's a bit of an inbalance here. Had to be on the limit or over it.
Others may know better than I

Either way, would have been scary

cheers Brett

I wont speculate if overloaded or not. For 5 weeks we've toured regional Victoria and so many people chat about our rig. Each time I ask them a question- what do you think the tare of the caravan is? 16x7ft

Most guesses are between 1300-1500kg.

It's 730kg.

So if I roll it....and it makes it onto the forum imagine the speculation.

Tony

-- Edited by Eaglemax on Wednesday 18th of September 2019 07:43:29 PM

denmonkey · Senior Member

yup no assumptions here, could have well been under the specs for the tug, but for me, I'd not be taking that chance.

Im seeing 3 windows at the back there which suggests 3 bunks plus probably a double in there too, which I figure means a van on the heavier end of the scale.
In the end, other than the contact with the guard rail , looks like it could be up righted without too much damage.
Probably can't say that for the content of the fridge or their pants.

blaze · Guru

well I think you are all jumping to conclusion.
The guy just wanted to rotate his tyres without the hassle of jacking each corner.
cheers
blaze

denmonkey · Senior Member

blaze wrote:
well I think you are all jumping to conclusion.
The guy just wanted to rotate his tyres without the hassle of jacking each corner.
cheers
blaze

seems like a valid technique.

I can't be too hypocritical, I've used a similar technique on the Pajero

Eaglemax · Guru

Odenmonkey wrote:
blaze wrote:
well I think you are all jumping to conclusion.
The guy just wanted to rotate his tyres without the hassle of jacking each corner.
cheers
blaze
seems like a valid technique.
I can't be too hypocritical, I've used a similar technique on the Pajero

Some eagle eyes on facebook suggest it is a NEW AGE van.

This is a New Age van 19ft tare 2330kg atm 2630kg

https://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/items/details/New-Age-Manta-Ray/SSE-AD-6282333?pageSource=details&id=SSE-AD-6282333

A 22ft New Age tare 2400 atm 3000kg bunk caravan.

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/youngtown/caravans/new-age-manta-ray-22ft-bunk-ensuite-series-2/1214021435

I think the Isuzu was capable of the tow. Reports suggest that road is notorious for fog and slippery conditions.

Anyway wouldnt it be good to read investigators reports on these crashes?

Tony

denmonkey · Senior Member

you know what, it would be Tony. Very much.
I think lots could be learned from the actual facts around accidents. If nothing else it would satisfy the curiosity factor and maybe even help others avoid the same.
You've got me wondering if there's a source somewhere you can access that sort of stuff.

cheers Brett

Knight · Senior Member

Wet, slippery road surface and possibly incorrect application of brakes, entry to corner too fast and braked while turning?

dieseltojo · Senior Member

denmonkey wrote:
you know what, it would be Tony. Very much.
I think lots could be learned from the actual facts around accidents. If nothing else it would satisfy the curiosity factor and maybe even help others avoid the same.
You've got me wondering if there's a source somewhere you can access that sort of stuff.

cheers Brett

Not sure Brett but I typed in caravan crashes and it came up with this. Click on a pic and it takes you to the poster. Best to forget about the comments though as they just go in circles. All I ever hope for is that they make it ok, and that if its the drivers fault they learn from it and stay safe.

The rest....well that's why God invented insurance. smile

https://www.google.com/search?q=Caravan+accident+site&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ACYBGNSK28xGvOF35i9xKBBReOnaWtBs2A:1568853930834&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=DcZg6nHzAvcfKM%253A%252C4y4JC6HrDOJGLM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQZvr3Mg30YFuKoGd-PsOjjrlJrVQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjTwoGq1NvkAhXk7XMBHcuACJ0Q9QEwCXoECAkQBg#imgrc=DcZg6nHzAvcfKM:

yobarr · Guru

Knight wrote:
Wet, slippery road surface and possibly incorrect application of brakes, entry to corner too fast and braked while turning?

Incident occurred July 2nd,2018,on way down hill,and started at the end of a passing lane.Toy car,big van,weight on rear bumper,slippery road,yaw sets in,goodbye. The car has been identified as an Mux? That being the case,GVM is 2750kg and wheelbase is a only 2845mm.As suggested,the van looks to be a 3 bunk model,and seems to be 20-22 long.Someone suggested New Age tare 2400kg,ATM 3000kg? No matter how much we sympathise,and say nice things,and try to justify decisions made,the simple fact is that there is no way that an Mux can safely tow 3000kg as a PIG trailer.No way. Period. Safe and happy travels to all,particularly those wise enough to ensure always that weight on cars wheels is at least 10% greater than weight on vans axle group.(GTM) Cheers

Eaglemax · Guru

yobarr wrote:

Knight wrote:
Wet, slippery road surface and possibly incorrect application of brakes, entry to corner too fast and braked while turning?
Incident occurred July 2nd,2018,on way down hill,and started at the end of a passing lane.Toy car,big van,weight on rear bumper,slippery road,yaw sets in,goodbye. The car has been identified as an Mux? That being the case,GVM is 2750kg and wheelbase is a only 2845mm.As suggested,the van looks to be a 3 bunk model,and seems to be 20-22 long.Someone suggested New Age tare 2400kg,ATM 3000kg? No matter how much we sympathise,and say nice things,and try to justify decisions made,the simple fact is that there is no way that an Mux can safely tow 3000kg as a PIG trailer.No way. Period. Safe and happy travels to all,particularly those wise enough to ensure always that weight on cars wheels is at least 10% greater than weight on vans axle group.(GTM) Cheers

I totally agree Yobarr. The Mux has a low GCM. The 19ft bunk caravan used as my first example the driver would get away with but the van in question does look longer that that.

Even the 19ft one is on its limits.

Tony

Knight · Senior Member

End of a passing lane, corner ahead, see pictures.

Wet, slippery road and possible incorrect application of brakes, entry to corner too fast and braked while turning, or too late.

I agree that it is wise to tow less than maximum allowable, so 2,500 kg for 3,000 kg MU-X, however;

Kerb weight: 2060kg

Towing capacity: 300kg/3000kg

Gross Combined Mass: 5750kg

-- Edited by Knight on Thursday 19th of September 2019 12:30:32 PM

yobarr · Guru

denmonkey wrote:
you know what, it would be Tony. Very much.
I think lots could be learned from the actual facts around accidents. If nothing else it would satisfy the curiosity factor and maybe even help others avoid the same.
You've got me wondering if there's a source somewhere you can access that sort of stuff.

cheers Brett

Hi Brett...I have been told that only fatal accidents are investigated? I did spend much time trying to source a report on this incident,with little success.BUT,I did get to read coroners reports on several fatal accidents on the Kuranda Range.Cheers

yobarr · Guru

Knight wrote:
End of a passing lane, corner ahead, see pictures.
Wet, slippery road and possible incorrect application of brakes, entry to corner too fast and braked while turning, or too late.I agree that it is wise to tow less than maximum allowable, so 2,500 kg for 3,000 kg MU-X, however;
Kerb weight: 2060kg
Towing capacity: 300kg/3000kg
Gross Combined Mass: 5750kg
-- Edited by Knight on Thursday 19th of September 2019 12:30:32 PM

Hi Dennis....whilst your quoted weights are indeed correct,the chances of an Mux safely towing 3000kg as a PIG trailer are about as remote as the chances of a Ram 1500 or an LC200 towing more than 3000kg as a PIG trailer........Zip,zero,zilch,nil,nada.And whilst people who use lightweights to tow heavy vans may well have been mislead by their well-meaning friends who advise that they have towed a "million kilometres with no trouble",or lied to by a van salesman,there is absolutely NO excuse for those people not to have done their own research into towing.But,as is so often the case these days,it will be almost certainly someone elses fault! Cest la vie.Cheers.

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 19th of September 2019 01:04:52 PM

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Why is it blamed on weights etc . Way back with much lighter tow vehicle we have pulled similar . People are in too much of a hurry and still want to be leading dog even when they are towing. I know Im a rev head myself. But theres a time for things . I notice the centre axles are close together too . I had this option on my car carrying trailer when I fitted better suspension under it . Close make it easy to turn especially by hand . Further apart gives a lot more stability. Being an emergency lineworker being called to many accidents over the years . Its the DRIVER not experienced, NOT driving to conditions . How many slow down or allow more gap to other vehicles when it rains ? Yes I have to watch it myself ! Some retire and this is one of their first trips !!!

montie · Guru

When is a van too big?
When fully laden it weighs more than a fully laden tug.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Yes even close or legal is imo too close when you look at the theory side .

yobarr · Guru

Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Why is it blamed on weights etc . Way back with much lighter tow vehicle we have pulled similar . People are in too much of a hurry and still want to be leading dog even when they are towing. Agree that way back many of us probably towed big vans with lighter cars,but there didnt seem to be the same desperation to get there yesterday (sic)
I know Im a rev head myself. But theres a time for things .I notice the centre axles are close together too . I had this option on my car carrying trailer when I fitted better suspension under it. Close make it easy to turn especially by hand . Further apart gives a lot more stability.
Close together also makes it harder to get your weights right.Tge water tank in front of the axles would have quite an influence on ball weight,depending on whether it was full or empty.Another tank just behind tge axles,plumbed appropriately,would help to maintain a consistent ball weight.
Being an emergency lineworker being called to many accidents over the years . Its the DRIVER not experienced, NOT driving to conditions . How many slow down or allow more gap to other vehicles when it rains ? Yes I have to watch it myself ! Some retire and this is one of their first trips !!!
All your points,Graeme,are relevant,particularly "not experienced",but never can you circumvent the fact that towing a heavy van with a short wheelbase,lighter car is an accident looking for a place to happen.Period.Never can you negate the "tail wagging the dog" syndrome.Simple physics! Cheers.

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 19th of September 2019 03:54:08 PM

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 19th of September 2019 04:24:32 PM

yobarr · Guru

montie wrote:
When is a van too big?
When fully laden it weighs more than a fully laden tug.

Absolutely Montie! We can only hope that eventually others join you,I and Graeme in understanding that! Cheers

denmonkey · Senior Member

fatals make sense. I'll suss out that link.

I've got lots of mates, who are the 'she'll be right mate' kinda fellas and they do stuff that I'd never be game to. then I think, that maybe they know something that I don't, when it turns out well
I do all the research I can and then double check it just in case.
I've often wondered what I'm missing out on because of my weakness/wisdom in this area .

I guess this guy, just found out. nothing like real world testing.

I often ponder my belly button too

cheers Brett

Olive Oil · Senior Member

We saw this one about a week ago, four axles, very long & a tinny on top.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Never . Just the tugs too small.

Nevd · Senior Member

Olive Oil - probably not that much weight on the towball because of all the axles lets them do it (in their own mind) biggrin .

Regarding the Kuranda accident I seem to remember reading somewhere that another vehicle was involved. I was up that way a fortnight ago and speaking to a local he was of the opinion that many who use the Kuranda Range (ie workers commuting) tend to use it as a racetrack. Has more corners than Mt Panorama. Great for wannabe's.

Olive Oil · Senior Member

Nevd wrote:
Olive Oil - probably not that much weight on the towball because of all the axles.

What about the total all up weight, would it be within legal requirements?

Whenarewethere · Guru

A couple of extra axles & 4 wheels would add a couple of hundred kg.

JayDee · Guru

Olive Oil wrote:
We saw this one about a week ago, four axles, very long & a tinny on top.

The tow vehicle looks to be a Land Cruiser.

Would be interesting to know the loaded weight of the van plus the length..

But, what a great rig for a family of say 2 adults and 3 to 5 kids to have to tour our great land.

Certainly appears to be a home on wheels.

Yes we are having more van accidents these days, but the van traffic has had a huge increase.

Drive safely and arrive on time. NOT DEAD ON TIME.

Jay&Dee

Knight · Senior Member

The van pictured above reminds me of a similar one I parked near at Coober Pedy, the rear opened to form a verandah and there were four bunks behind and obviously an ensuite next and way down the front a double bed. Lots of children.

Another had a SWB Land Cruiser (must have been modified) used as a prime mover with a similarly long van behind on a 5th wheel setup, parked at Longreach.

denmonkey · Senior Member

so here's a question for you.

we look at some of these set ups and call ' now way ' and I'd be willing to think often enough that would be on the money.
Who is responsible for these things being on the road, or more importantly taking them OFF the road?

I guess your average copper wouldn't be interested, would an RMS vehicle pay attention and would it be ignored at a heavy vehicle stop?

Point being, is it anyone's responsibility to identify these on the road and force the appropriate checks to be done to stop them were required ?

cheers Brett