Newbie advice - what car to buy

Frogman · Member

Newbie advice - what car to buy

Greg 1 · Guru

If I were in your position, I would be looking for the van first and then looking for a suitable tow vehicle to match, not the other way around. It often happens that the van that you fall in love with is too heavy for the tug you have bought so therein lies a problem. Buy a tow tug that has spare capacity. That is to say if the vans ATM is say 2000kgs, then look for a vehicle that will handle 2500kgs. Trust me you do not want to be banging right on the limit of the vehicles tow capacity. Be very careful too of what your desired vehicle can handle in terms of ball weight. Many cars have very restrictive limits put on that. To be a good tow vehicle, in my opinion, it should have a tow ball weight capacity of 10% of its towing capacity as a minimum. i.e.. If the towing capacity is 2500kgs then the tow ball load capacity should be 250kgs. The other things to consider is the vehicles Gross Combination Mass capacity which is the maximum that the van and car combination is allowed to weigh overall. This can be quite restricting as in the case of my Ranger which has a claimed 3500kg tow capacity but a GCM of only 6000kgs. If you do the sums, this really means that in a practical sense, the Ranger can only tow about 3000kgs. Caravanning is a fantastic way of seeing this great country of ours. I have been doing this for most of my life and still love it. Hopefully you too pick a nice rig and join the rest of us who have come to love this method of travel.

yobarr · Guru

Frogman wrote:
Hi Everybody
First of all, Happy Fathers Day to all out there-
My wife and I hope to join all of you on the road within the year, as I'm being made redundant. But we're starting from scratch. No car, no caravan.
So assuming a small van of 2,000kg maximum, what car should I get considering I'll use it as a normal as well as a towing and and I don't like big cars. The Mazda CX5 would work but my head is too close to my feet aka just under 5ft7 and I find the dash too high. So would a 2 ltr Diesel such as a Sportage or Forrester do the trick? Not many CR-V's on the market in Perth.
Any advice appreciated.Thanks.Mark

Hi Mark....I know little about smaller cars,but neither of the two you nominate will legally tow 2000kg.And neither will the CX5.Good luck with your search,but please let us know what car you propose to purchase before you part with any of your Gold.Cheers

Knight · Senior Member

Preferably rear wheel drive, all wheel drive or four wheel drive.

Front wheel drive is not good for towing on slippery ground or even gravel surfaces, even in some caravan parks parking on high level sites.

yobarr · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
If I were in your position, I would be looking for the van first and then looking for a suitable tow vehicle to match, not the other way around. It often happens that the van that you fall in love with is too heavy for the tug you have bought so therein lies a problem. Buy a tow tug that has spare capacity. That is to say if the vans ATM is say 2000kgs, then look for a vehicle that will handle 2500kgs. Trust me you do not want to be banging right on the limit of the vehicles tow capacity. Be very careful too of what your desired vehicle can handle in terms of ball weight. Many cars have very restrictive limits put on that. To be a good tow vehicle, in my opinion, it should have a tow ball weight capacity of 10% of its towing capacity as a minimum. i.e.. If the towing capacity is 2500kgs then the tow ball load capacity should be 250kgs. The other things to consider is the vehicles Gross Combination Mass capacity which is the maximum that the van and car combination is allowed to weigh overall. This can be quite restricting as in the case of my Ranger which has a claimed 3500kg tow capacity but a GCM of only 6000kgs. If you do the sums, this really means that in a practical sense, the Ranger can only tow about 3000kgs. Caravanning is a fantastic way of seeing this great country of ours. I have been doing this for most of my life and still love it. Hopefully you too pick a nice rig and join the rest of us who have come to love this method of travel.

x2 Good information.....Greg,I notice that Mark lives in Dianella? Cheers

Knight · Senior Member

You have specified a smaller vehicle is your preference.

There are various caravan models that offer comfort and lightweight construction including Jurgens;

jurgens.com.au/sungazer-caravan.html

Mamil · Senior Member

Welcome Mark.

As someone who went through a similar search a couple of years ago, I can tell you it's difficult to find an Australian built caravan with all the usual amenities under two tonnes. That's why we ended up with a lightweight Euro van. So, I think Greg's advice is wise to find the van first just in case you end up with something heavier than you planned, and the car won't tow it comfortably.

As for the car, as others have said, don't get close to the upper limit of your car's capacity as you'll regret it in the long run, and take careful note of the car's ballweight which is typically the Achilles heel of the smaller SUVs when it comes to towing even a lightweight caravan.

I would suggest you take a look at the LandRover Freelander 2 and Discovery Sport. They are essentially the same car under the skin, just the Freelander was the previous design and so can be picked up quite a bit cheaper. They are one step up from the smaller SUVs, but not as big and thirsty as the big 4WDs. My wife won't drive anything as big as a Prado or Pajero around the burbs day-to-day, but is very happy with our diesel Discovery Sport. It has a tow capacity of 2.2 Tonnes and max ballweight of 175kg, and it towed our caravan which was 1600kg/100kg with confidence and plenty of capacity in reserve.

Anyway, good luck with your search for a suitable car and van, and enjoy your subsequent travels!

IMG_20171008_125743 (1024x767).jpg

-- Edited by Mamil on Sunday 1st of September 2019 02:37:34 PM

Warren-Pat_01 · Guru

Hi Mark (& wife),
Welcome to a great forum where usually good advice is free!

Like the others above, I would advise you not to tow to the maximum weight that the car is rated to unless you want to buy a car every couple of years!

Could I suggest that you visit a caravan park or two, walk through & ask people who might have a van of the size you are considering what their vehicle is - asking is free & much better than doing you cash on something that is unsuitable.

Have a look though this forum (including the Techies) & caravan magazines in libraries at weights! Some cars have limited TBM (Tow ball mass) on larger vans. I only found that my Nissan Patrol (the dealer said "No worries, you can tow 3.5T" - well he was wrong on two fields). He didn't know the then kerb weight of the car, nor did he know there was a sticker on the back door showing what I could tow as far as TBM went! There are a number of popular vehicles that have that same sticker!

Weights are a nightmare - staying light is often very hard as you'll see all the goodies advertised & you may want some of these. Bear in mind the "Scalies" can fine you quite severely if you're over your GCM, your insurance company may not wish to cover you regardless of how much you pay them.

You don't say what use you will be putting your rig to - occasional use, travelling for six months or so, or more. Have a look at camper trailers too - the range is getting wider as the years go by. You may be content to stay on the tar, or you may be a little more adventurous in tackling dirt roads - just to see that "special view down through the bush."

You've got time on your side, have a good look around & buy the most suitable rig that suites both of you. And hopefully we'll see you out there enjoying what there is to see sometime in the future.

kesa32 · Senior Member

Hi Mark , it'd help too if you could give a budget as well , there's already been good advice given on here so lm just going ask are you new to caravanning and if so maybe " try before you buy " as some people hate towingetc..... hate to see you spend up big and not be happy mate
Though I'm presuming that your familiar with the lifestyle .... so good luck !

Greg 1 · Guru

Mark If you are in Dianella, I am in Sawyers Valley. If you want to have a chat contact me on 0foureight13six0seven1six. Happy to offer any advice I can. Regards Greg

Frogman · Member

Thanks to everybody for the invaluable advice. I understand the importance of buying the van before the car, and the "try before you buy". Yes, I'd like to hire a van for a few short trips (I'm planning on going to Geraldton for a week in October). But I need a vehicle before I can hire the van.

Most advice seems that I'll need a bigger vehicle than the 2.0 ltr diesel - Any advice about a Kia Sorrento? About 420 Nm. Bigger tow than I wanted, but safety is paramount.

Mike Harding · Guru

The Isuzu Dmax seems to get very good reports as a tow vehicle.

Knight · Senior Member

Mike Harding wrote:
The Isuzu Dmax seems to get very good reports as a tow vehicle.

I have owned an Isuzu MU-X since 2017 and it just had the 70,000 Km Book Service. The only warranty item so far was a leaking power steering coupling which was tightened by Darwin Isuzu and no problem with it since.

Not an Isuzu fault but the original Dunlop A/T tyres are wearing too quickly on the outer edges and despite main tread still good for another maybe 20,000 Km I might need to change them next service, and one removed to spare has tread delaminating signs. Wheel alignment has been carried out at least every second service (20,000 Km). I change oil and oil filter every 10,000 Km Service but Isuzu recommend every 20,000 Km.

My Jurgens Skygazer caravan fully loaded is 1,800 kg and the Isuzu tows it effortlessly, maximum capacity of Isuzu MU-X 3,000 Kg and 300 Kg ball weight. As people here have commented it is better to tow at least 10 per cent less than the vehicle's legal maximum capacity, or even less. Fuel consumption is one good reason, but ease of driving is a plus.

D-Max can tow 3,500 Kg and as with MU-X can carry its maximum vehicle load capacity and tow its legal trailer weight.

Greg 1 · Guru

That is not correct. The DMax like other dual cabs cannot carry its full load and tow 3500kgs. It's GCM is 5850kgs so take off 3500kgs from that and you are left with 2350kgs. The kerb weight is 1956kgs without any accessories or occupants so you are left with a whole of 394kgs for load in the ute which by the time you put a couple of passengers in, full fuel tank and a bullbar, you might just have enough left over for a sandwich each. The claimed 3500kg tow capacity of most vehicles on the market whilst technically possible is in practical terms pure sales bs. Your MUX is probably the same if you do the sums.

Greg 1 · Guru

The problem I see with the Sorrento is it's GCM of 2660kgs and it's piddling tow ball weight max of 100kgs. If your van ATM is around the Sorrento's max tow capacity of 2000kgs, then you are left with a maximum of 660kgs for load which has to include passengers, fuel and accessories. Worse is the tow ball weight limitation. Most vans go more than 5% weight on the ball although some of the Euro models get down there. However, you will find it very very difficult to load the van and keep it restricted to the 100kgs, keeping in mind that the ball weight shown on the vans compliance plate is the empty weight. Really, unless you are going to buy a quite small van, you need to bite the bullet and buy a decent tow vehicle. Most of what you are looking at are really toys when it comes to towing. I would be looking at MUX, Everest, Prado, Pajero or Pajero Sport, all of which are excellent tow vehicles and will handle vans upto 2500kgs with ease. I have owned a Pajero and found it a very easy vehicle to live with as my every day car.

Knight · Senior Member

Greg 1 wrote:
That is not correct. The DMax like other dual cabs cannot carry its full load and tow 3500kgs. It's GCM is 5850kgs so take off 3500kgs from that and you are left with 2350kgs. The kerb weight is 1956kgs without any accessories or occupants so you are left with a whole of 394kgs for load in the ute which by the time you put a couple of passengers in, full fuel tank and a bullbar, you might just have enough left over for a sandwich each. The claimed 3500kg tow capacity of most vehicles on the market whilst technically possible is in practical terms pure sales bs. Your MUX is probably the same if you do the sums.

Thanks Greg, you might be interested in this comparison sheet ...

https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/why-a-3500kg-tow-rating-may-not-really-be-a-3500kg-tow-rating/

yobarr · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
That is not correct. The DMax like other dual cabs cannot carry its full load and tow 3500kgs. It's GCM is 5850kgs so take off 3500kgs from that and you are left with 2350kgs.

Well said Greg,and if anyone was stupid enough to tow a 3500kg van with one of these cars,with 10% towball weight,they would have GTM (weight on van wheels) of 3150kg behind a car with weight in wheels of 2700kg.(2350kg plus 350kg towball).The van would then be more than 16% heavier than the car,and an accident looking for a place to happen.The cars (Ranger etc) that have a 6000kg GCM are in a similar situation...they cannot safely tow a 3500kg van.No way...period. If you load a Ranger to its 3200kg GVM,the GTM can obviously be no more than 2800kg.This equates to a van with around 3100kg. The sooner some people stop trying to make their cars do things for which they were not designed,the safer we all will be! Cheers

yobarr · Guru

Knight wrote:
Greg 1 wrote:
That is not correct. The DMax like other dual cabs cannot carry its full load and tow 3500kgs. It's GCM is 5850kgs so take off 3500kgs from that and you are left with 2350kgs. The kerb weight is 1956kgs without any accessories or occupants so you are left with a whole of 394kgs for load in the ute which by the time you put a couple of passengers in, full fuel tank and a bullbar, you might just have enough left over for a sandwich each. The claimed 3500kg tow capacity of most vehicles on the market whilst technically possible is in practical terms pure sales bs. Your MUX is probably the same if you do the sums.
Thanks Greg, you might be interested in this comparison sheet ...
https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/why-a-3500kg-tow-rating-may-not-really-be-a-3500kg-tow-rating/

Hi Dennis...I think I have actually seen that before,and it tells a few home truths,although the link (?) does not work.If it is not really a link,my apologies,but I am not much good with technology.Cheers.

yobarr · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
Really, unless you are going to buy a quite small van, you need to bite the bullet and buy a decent tow vehicle. Most of what you are looking at are really toys......

Well said Greg.It never is wise to send boy to do a mans job! On your list of suggested cars,there are some that will do the job admirably,but still are lightweights and easy to drive.Cheers

Frogman · Member

Once again, all advice taken on board. I need to rethink my thinking. I've never driven a large car (My co car is a little Dualis and my wife has a Subaru Impreza).

I've never liked larger cars but that's obviously because I've never spent too much time in them to get used to them. Probably best I try hire one of the cars Greg recommended ( MUX, Everest, Prado, Pajero or Pajero Sport) for a week or 2 and go from there. Will probably stick to an SUV as opposed to a Ute 'tho.

Greg, thanks for the offer, I'll phone you as soon a smy month end accounts are out the way.

Thanks so much for all your input. I'm very new to towing and I know I'll have to get a comfortable caravan with onboard toilet or Edie (my bank manager, boss and wife of many years) will not want to go a second time and it will all be a waste of van and van.

Cheers and hope to see everyone somewhere.

Mark

Frogman · Member

One more question. So many vehicles have been mentioned and are on the upper end of the cost level.

But there are a few Ford Territory 2.7l diesels that will obviously have the towing capacity for a small van. I can get a relatively low km vehicle for mid $20,000's But nobody has spoken about it.

Is there a reason? Seems very cost effective.

yobarr · Guru

Frogman wrote:
One more question. So many vehicles have been mentioned and are on the upper end of the cost level.

But there are a few Ford Territory 2.7l diesels that will obviously have the towing capacity for a small van. I can get a relatively low km vehicle for mid $20,000's But nobody has spoken about it.

Is there a reason? Seems very cost effective.

Perfect car for your needs,and the engine is from a Landrover Discovery.Did have problems with front ball joints and rear suspension bushes,so get those checked.Can tow 2300kg,from memory.Go for it! Cheers

Knight · Senior Member

Greg, copy the link and paste to window at top ... but link should work now so click on it

practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/why-a-3500kg-tow-rating-may-not-really-be-a-3500kg-tow-rating/

Isuzu D-Max MU-X

Payload 1,010 kg 690 kg

Tow 3,500 kg 3,000 kg

Loss of payload 500 kg zero loss

-- Edited by Knight on Tuesday 3rd of September 2019 10:11:47 AM

-- Edited by Knight on Tuesday 3rd of September 2019 10:12:30 AM

Greg 1 · Guru

The MUX is better than the DMax but has a slight payload loss at full towing capacity although not much. GCM is 5750kgs less kerb weight of 2075kgs leaves 3675kgs. Take off the 3000kgs tow capacity and you are left with 675kgs for load in the vehicle. It does offer 300kgs ball load too which is good.

yobarr · Guru

Knight wrote:
Greg, copy the link and paste to window at top ... but link should work now so click on it
practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/why-a-3500kg-tow-rating-may-not-really-be-a-3500kg-tow-rating/
Isuzu D-Max MU-X
Payload 1,010 kg 690 kg
Tow 3,500 kg 3,000 kg
Loss of payload 500 kg zero loss--

Hi Dennis..Not sure what your point is here,but MUX has load carrying capacity of 690kg (your figure,but I believe that it actually is 608kg?).........take away towball 300kg,and you have under 400kg left for everything,plus,fully loaded at 2650kg or 2750kg GVM,(depending on model) you are towing 2700kg with a lightweight car with wheelbase 250mm shorter than that of a DMax.The DMax has carrying capacity of 1049kg....take away towball of 350kg (if you are stupid enough to hook up to a 3500kg van) and,on paper,you still have carrying capacity of 700kg in the car.More importantly,you are under your GCM of 5950kg.....but lets not even mention axle weights on either car.Truth be known,neither of those cars can get within a country mile of safely reaching the quoted towing capacities.Cheers

Greg 1 · Guru

The Territory is a nice vehicle and on the surface looks as though it would make a good tow vehicle with the diesel awd model having a 2700kg rated tow capacity and 270kg ball load with Fords heavy duty tow pack. The ****** in the wood pile though is its low GCM. This means that the Territory, like many others cannot tow anywhere near it's rated capacity in any practical sense as it has very little left for passengers etc. Quite disappointing really as I have driven a few and as a vehicle liked them a lot.

Greg 1 · Guru

As yobarr has indicated, once hooked up, your vans actual ball weight comes off the tow vehicle load capacity as it is considered to be carried by the tow vehicle.

Whenarewethere · Guru

& you have a leverage factor so watch your rear axle limit.

-- Edited by Whenarewethere on Tuesday 3rd of September 2019 12:49:19 PM

Whenarewethere · Guru

Mamil wrote:
Welcome Mark.
As someone who went through a similar search a couple of years ago, I can tell you it's difficult to find an Australian built caravan with all the usual amenities under two tonnes. That's why we ended up with a lightweight Euro van. So, I think Greg's advice is wise to find the van first just in case you end up with something heavier than you planned, and the car won't tow it comfortably.

As for the car, as others have said, don't get close to the upper limit of your car's capacity as you'll regret it in the long run, and take careful note of the car's ballweight which is typically the Achilles heel of the smaller SUVs when it comes to towing even a lightweight caravan.
I would suggest you take a look at the LandRover Freelander 2 and Discovery Sport. They are essentially the same car under the skin, just the Freelander was the previous design and so can be picked up quite a bit cheaper. They are one step up from the smaller SUVs, but not as big and thirsty as the big 4WDs. My wife won't drive anything as big as a Prado or Pajero around the burbs day-to-day, but is very happy with our diesel Discovery Sport. It has a tow capacity of 2.2 Tonnes and max ballweight of 175kg, and it towed our caravan which was 1600kg/100kg with confidence and plenty of capacity in reserve.
Anyway, good luck with your search for a suitable car and van, and enjoy your subsequent travels!

-- Edited by Mamil on Sunday 1st of September 2019 02:37:34 PM

The Freelander's towball weight is 250kg & up to 350kg with a few caveats. Can only tow up to 2000kg, off road can only tow up to 750kg.

I think many don't realise that a car's towing capacity is derated a fair bit for off road than on road.

yobarr · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
The Territory is a nice vehicle and on the surface looks as though it would make a good tow vehicle with the diesel awd model having a 2700kg rated tow capacity and 270kg ball load with Fords heavy duty tow pack. The ****** in the wood pile though is its low GCM. This means that the Territory, like many others cannot tow anywhere near it's rated capacity in any practical sense as it has very little left for passengers etc. Quite disappointing really as I have driven a few and as a vehicle liked them a lot.

Hi Greg....The diesel Territory AWD has GVM 2720kg and GCM 5250kg.This would be an ideal vehicle for the OP,who wishes to be able to tow only 2000kg (+/-) as he still would have plenty of carrying capacity after his 200kg towball weight is accounted for.As you say,loaded to capacity,the car could tow a van with GTM of 2530kg (ATM of 2800kg) but this is beyond its towing limit,even with the heavy duty towing kit.Perfect for OPs needs though.Cheers