Why towing is like rocket science

rockylizard · Guru

Why towing is like rocket science

Whenarewethere · Guru

I don't even tow but articles like this make me sit up & take note of what one is loading into the car.

I did a spreadsheet of every last item I put in the car or have attached permanently & we don't even have a bull bar or a towbar itself. I thought I was doing well but was horrified to find we were over the payload.

It is surprising how the little things add up. 24 kg of items under 1 kg (not including food or clothes)!

I put larger tyres on the car, including the 2 spares that is an additional 18kg simply for slightly larger rubber!

Do not forget rear axle load, & the multiplying factor of weight at the rear of the car. It can push one over rear axle load very quickly.

Also when looking at a particular car, the electric everything model to keep up with the Joneses with every last gadget & air conditioned seats etc will have a smaller payload than the pauper model, & it can be a few hundred kg.

A good example of this is a Discovery SE = 736kg payload, HSE = 512kg payload. 224kg of payload vanished into thin air so to speak! If one uses the 350kg towball weight to its limit there is only 162kg left on the HSE model for passengers!

Yuglamron · Guru

I read through the article and the bit that sticks out for me.

"The dealer will be breaking the Law if he sells you a van that your tug cannot legally Tow"

Huge ramifications there in that one statement.

Whenarewethere · Guru

Yuglamron wrote:
I read through the article and the bit that sticks out for me.
"The dealer will be breaking the Law if he sells you a van that your tug cannot legally Tow"
Huge ramifications there in that one statement.

Why buying have 3 or so witnesses & clearly state the above & get everyone to write in their diaries the situation!

montie · Guru

Whenarewethere wrote:
Yuglamron wrote:
I read through the article and the bit that sticks out for me.
"The dealer will be breaking the Law if he sells you a van that your tug cannot legally Tow"
Huge ramifications there in that one statement.
Why buying have 3 or so witnesses & clearly state the above & get everyone to write in their diaries the situation!

No ramifications whatever.

If a dealer sells you a caravan and he knows that your tug is incapable of towing it means the van is not fit for purpose and he is in breach of the Consumer Act.

I probably should reword that to read "he knows your tug does not have the rated towing capacity". These days it's possible to have the right tow rating and in certain circumstances still be incapable of towing the van legally.

-- Edited by montie on Saturday 2nd of February 2019 07:34:39 AM

-- Edited by montie on Saturday 2nd of February 2019 11:21:45 AM

DMaxer · Guru

The problem is Montie, if the dealer says he was relying upon the claims made by the motor vehicle manufacturer that the vehicle could do all of these things, he has hardly misled anyone.

The caravan dealer is not responsible for claims made by the car manufacturer. The question that needs to be asked by the potential buyer should be directed to the manufacturer of his car.

If someone asks the milkman for medical advice, full knowing that the milkman has no medical qualifications, and the advice is wrong, there is no action. You asked for and accepted the opinion of someone that was not qualified and you received the type of advice that would be expected. Well meaning but incorrect.

montie · Guru

DMaxer wrote:
The problem is Montie, if the dealer says he was relying upon the claims made by the motor vehicle manufacturer that the vehicle could do all of these things, he has hardly misled anyone.
The caravan dealer is not responsible for claims made by the car manufacturer. The question that needs to be asked by the potential buyer should be directed to the manufacturer of his car.
If someone asks the milkman for medical advice, full knowing that the milkman has no medical qualifications, and the advice is wrong, there is no action. You asked for and accepted the opinion of someone that was not qualified and you received the type of advice that would be expected. Well meaning but incorrect.

DMaxer,
I am speaking for the tugs that quote a legitimate towing capacity. Having a towing capacity of 3.5 tonne with a 6000kg GCM needs to be pointed out to the prospective buyer which we do, however if the chips are down the vehicle has a quoted tow capacity of 3.5 tonnes.
We would always point out to the buyer, however, that 3.5 tonnes can only be towed in certain circumstances ie when the tug is not loaded to it's capacity. We would also be recommending that the buyer consider a more suitable tug, but as the manufacturer's rating is in fact 3.5 tonne, that can only be a recommendation.

Whenarewethere · Guru

Another Royal Commission is required. Towing & clarity of weight limits is as transparent as the banking, finance & superannuation industry!

As I stated earlier in this thread, simply buying a top of the range model of car can kill your payload capacity.

rockylizard · Guru

Whenarewethere wrote:
SNIP~~~A good example of this is a Discovery SE = 736kg payload, HSE = 512kg payload. 224kg of payload vanished into thin air so to speak! If one uses the 350kg towball weight to its limit there is only 162kg left on the HSE model for passengers!

Gday...

Jonathan, I am sure you have a reliable source for the numbers you quote. I assume you have those from your owner's manual?

However, the Land Rover site shows the following -

Discovery 01.JPG

hmm It is always a can of worms when trying to get accurate data on just what vehicles ratings are. cry

Cheers - John

Whenarewethere · Guru

I got them off a LR forum so I cannot say they are 100% correct. But I can say with the Freelander is when towing you can increase the car's GVM by 100kg but only up to 100 kph. But if not towing one does not have this extra 100kg up to 100 kph, bugger! But the Australianised Freelander can have up to 350 kg towball weight. Everyone else only gets up to 250kg.

Whenarewethere · Guru

I just noticed the 2.0 litre engine, so this chart must be the current Discovery which has lost a truckload of weight with all the aluminium used so probably has a larger payload accordingly.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Yep, like I sed Jonathan, it is a real can of worms knowing, or finding out, the actual ratings (weights) of vehicles.

Many manufacturers seem to 'fudge' some figures as they have multiple models of the 'same' name but different 'trim/luxury' etc. Then, if you add the different requirements of the various countries vehicles are sold in ... that can of worms just grew in size.

As the heading sed - towing is a bit like rocket science. cry cry

Cheers - John

Whenarewethere · Guru

If one's car has 24 way seats, glass panoramic roof & more cylinders than is really needed, knocking off a few hundred kg from the payload would be a good starting point!

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

sound a bit like ya got the rong vehicle Jonathan.

cheers - John

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Hey Rocky Mate, I noticed the Colorado wasn't mentioned in the article. That's cos they are a good machine biggrin biggrin

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

I would not ever want to speak negatively of another's motor vehicle so let it not be on my head when it becomes evident you might be living under a misapprehension.

smiley Sorry.gif

Cheers - John

Cupie · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
snip ....
It is always a can of worms when trying to get accurate data on just what vehicles ratings are.
Cheers - John

You're not kidding.

I gave up trying to get something 'official' for my old GQ Patrol. In particular the TB42 EFI 1996 model. I have one source that gives that model a greater 'tow' capacity than other GQs.

Not worried, because I actually come under the max for the lesser rated Patrol TD42 (except perhaps for ball weight).

Dougwe · Chief one feather

rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
I would not ever want to speak negatively of another's motor vehicle so let it not be on my head when it becomes evident you might be living under a misapprehension.
Cheers - John

"Wot you say'n Willis" confuse

Mmmm, me thinks I might be

yobarr · Guru

montie wrote:
Whenarewethere wrote:
Yuglamron wrote:
I read through the article and the bit that sticks out for me.
"The dealer will be breaking the Law if he sells you a van that your tug cannot legally Tow"
Huge ramifications there in that one statement.
Why buying have 3 or so witnesses & clearly state the above & get everyone to write in their diaries the situation!
No ramifications whatever.
If a dealer sells you a caravan and he knows that your tug is incapable of towing it means the van is not fit for purpose and he is in breach of the Consumer Act.
I probably should reword that to read "he knows your tug does not have the rated towing capacity". These days it's possible to have the right tow rating and in certain circumstances still be incapable of towing the van.

-- Edited by montie on Saturday 2nd of February 2019 07:34:39 AM

As Monty says,the car may well have sufficient towing capacity......but only if the trailer is a DOG trailer.This seems designed to confuse the vast majority of people,who have absolutely no idea about weights etc,but,if it comes to the crunch,the dealer has an OUT and is in the clear.The fact that there is NO way that a particular car can SAFELY tow the advertised rating seems immaterial.The current crop of twin-cabs which allegedly can tow 3500kg is an example,as is the Dodge Ram 1500,which has a towing capacity of 4500kg.With a 1770kg rear axle there is no way that that car can safely tow a trailer weighing much more than 3000kg,unless the trailer is a DOG trailer.The same applies to the 6000kg GCM twin-cabs.My neighbour has a Y62 Nissan Patrol,and he very proudly told me that his car could tow more than my car could,because his GCM is 7000kg.When I did the maths,with 10% ball weight,he can get to 6520g GCM,while I am legal on all axles at 6800kg.....he was not amused!Weights are a minefield for those who dont understand them.Cheers

yobarr · Guru

Cupie wrote:
rockylizard wrote:
snip ....
It is always a can of worms when trying to get accurate data on just what vehicles ratings are.
Cheers - John

You're not kidding.
I gave up trying to get something 'official' for my old GQ Patrol. In particular the TB42 EFI 1996 model. I have one source that gives that model a greater 'tow' capacity than other GQs.
Not worried, because I actually come under the max for the lesser rated Patrol TD42 (except perhaps for ball weight).

GCM is 5300kg,GVM is 2800Kg and tow capacity is 2500kg.Cheers

Cupie · Guru

yobarr wrote:

.... snip ...

GCM is 5300kg,GVM is 2800Kg and tow capacity is 2500kg.Cheers

Thanks for that yobarr (What's your source please?) ...

I thought that the oft quoted tow capacity of 2,500 kg was a little low so I had a close look in my "Gregory's Service Manual #509 for Patrol Maverick Petrol Engines 1988 - 1997 (Fifth Reprint April 2002)"

It has a supplement for the models from Dec 1992 that includes my Sept 1995 TB (Petrol) 4.2EFI manual wagon with coil springs.

Quote ...

GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS

Towing Capacity

With Trailer brakes -

Station Wagon with

Manual Transmission ... 2 800 kg

All other models .......... 2 500 kg

Without Trailer brakes ..... 750 kg

I don't know what their source is & I gave up trying to find any confirmation including my owners manual or compliance plates. No mention of GCM but compliance plates confirm the GVM of 2800 kg.

The Manual's Specifications for earlier models quote Tow Capacity as 2500 kg with no mention of Auto v Manual transmissions!

In any case, as I stated earlier, my actual van ATM is 2334 (Tare 1934 & GTM 2111 Calc ball weight 223 kg actual fully loaded <271 kg).

PS ... Another look on the web revealed this .. which confirms the 2800 kg tow .. but it makes no mention of transmission type!

https://www.carsguide.com.au/nissan/patrol/price/1995/st----4x4--?id=PBFU

Whenarewethere · Guru

Even though my car has up to 350kg towball weight. If you are towing offroad, capacity is 750kg whether the trailer has brakes or not!

Whenarewethere · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Weights are a minefield for those who dont understand them.Cheers

& Not much better for those who are pretty adept with an abacus!

For example how many people would know if they are within the load limit of their rear axle!

yobarr · Guru

Whenarewethere wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Weights are a minefield for those who dont understand them.Cheers
& Not much better for those who are pretty adept with an abacus!
For example how many people would know if they are within the load limit of their rear axle!

Very few,I would suggest,and I suspect that many would not want to know.....ignorance is bliss! Cheers

Whenarewethere · Guru

FIRST PRIZE of bragging rights to the person who knows how much they are within their rear load axle limit!

PS. I don't know either!

yobarr · Guru

Whenarewethere wrote:
FIRST PRIZE of bragging rights to the person who knows how much they are within their rear load axle limit!
PS. I don't know either!

I do......my rear axle is rated at 2300kg and by adjusting the amount of water in my undertray water tanks,I make sure that I am right on that figure.If I absolutely need 120 litres of water,I dont fill the rear diesel tank to capacity.Cheers

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Whenarewethere wrote:
FIRST PRIZE of bragging rights to the person who knows how much they are within their rear load axle limit!
PS. I don't know either!

My hand is up.

I have a max load on rear axle of 1850 and fully loaded and van on back come in at 1520.

Radar · Guru

Whenarewethere wrote:
FIRST PRIZE of bragging rights to the person who knows how much they are within their rear load axle limit!
PS. I don't know either!

I do from weighing our combination at a local weigh bridge, a small cost to pay to be sure to be sure.

43 years of being a transport driver comes out in me when I hit the road. Weights and measures are part large part of driving duties.

rockylizard · Guru

Whenarewethere wrote:
FIRST PRIZE of bragging rights to the person who knows how much they are within their rear load axle limit!
PS. I don't know either!

Gday...

When ya live full time in ya van and travel with all ya worldly possessions inside, ya gotta know - that's wot weigh bridges are for.

cheers - John

PeterD · Guru

You do not have to go far through the article to find they don't really know the full extent of what they are discussing.

The legal maximum weight for your vehicle and trailer, hitched together, must be less than the combined, individual legal maximum weights for the vehicle and trailer.

Technically speaking then, gross combined mass must be less than the sum of gross vehicle mass and gross trailer mass.

Bunkum. The legal definition of the GCM is:

GROSS COMBINATION MASS - value specified for the vehicle by the
Manufacturer as being the maximum of the sum of the Gross Vehicle Mass of
the drawing vehicle plus the sum of the Axle Loads of any vehicle capable of
being drawn as a trailer.

If they can't get that right, is it worth reading further down the article?