Transmission oil temperature.

iana · Guru

Transmission oil temperature.

Wanda · Guru

Hi
Plenty of info in the Caravanners Forum Dedicated Owners Discussion Group in the Mazda BT50 group. Simple answer, just do it.

Plenty of room behind the grill and your worrying about nothing re heat etc, and I would , have, removed the old water cooler.

Mine is approx 20cmx 24cm and plenty big enough, we tow a 3t van it and now it never goes above 100deg
cheers
Ian( Done it)

-- Edited by Wanda on Sunday 16th of December 2018 08:40:44 AM

-- Edited by Wanda on Sunday 16th of December 2018 08:45:03 AM

valiant81 · Guru

Hi all;

While i drive a manual 4x4 for the caravan, i have to agree with you in regards to the auto transmission cooler. Mounting the cooler would be a issue, maybe have a talk with a auto transmission rebuilder and have a think about what they say. As they say " size matters ", so have the largest one that would fit in the space.

One thing to think about, if you have the transmission cooler fitted and some thing goes wrong with your auto transmission your could be covered by some form of warranty. I used to do all the services on all of our cars, oil and filters etc. Now i just leave it to my mechanics to sort out the services and any thing that could go wrong. It may cost a bit, but for piece of mind the cost is not a issue.

T1 Terry · Guru

Auto trans fluid temp is a tricky subject. get the oil too cold and the engine management will lock out certain functions, too hot and the engine management should reduce the transmission load by dropping down a ratio so the lock up converter can be engaged so the torque converter stops adding heat to the transmission fluid. the opposite happens if the fluid is too cold, it actually works the torque converter harder to heat the oil to what it considers the ideal operating temp.
First thing to look at if you have high trans oil temp issues, are you towing a big load in the wrong gear? Simply trying to cool the oil that got overheated by bad driving practices is a case of treating the symptoms rather than the cause. Removing the water to trans fluid cooler will remove one of the methods of warming the transmission oil up faster and will only help if you also have an engine coolant temp problem.
you can mount trans coolers in places other than behind the grille in the path of other cooling radiators, it just requires more thought on the design. We often see air scoops for additional brake cooling on high performance vehicles, that would be a good source for the cooling air required for that additional transmission cooler. Even something added more air into the under bonnet area like a scoop that then directed the air through the trans cooler, two birds with the one stone because that will also move more heat out of the under bonnet area and out under the vehicle and away.

T1 Terry

swamp · Senior Member

HI
U will never overcool a hardworking trans with a cooler . Some transmissions have a thermostat. Anyways a 8 inch by 11 inch by 1 1/2 inch cooler ,reasonable size but not big enough to overcool . The oil flow quickly thru cooler so that makes it difficult to extract heat. Particularly air to oil . An oil to water cooler is far more efficient but almost impossible in a car .
Anytime an oil spends over 100deg cel it degrades. Synthetics degrades a little slower

Always tow in top gear or less but not overdrive and asses how the vehicle reacts .

-- Edited by swamp on Sunday 16th of December 2018 05:06:28 PM

Delta18 · Guru

swamp wrote:
HI

Anytime an oil spends over 100deg cel it degrades. Synthetics degrades a little slower

-- Edited by swamp on Sunday 16th of December 2018 05:06:28 PM

Not sure about that, I get lots of meals of chips when the oil is at 180 - 190c biggrin

iana · Guru

Hi Terry, agree with what you say, looking outside the square.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Trouble is you dont get too much air flow doing it tuff pulling up a steep road etc . Adding an extra cooler wont do any damage ., Will only enhance the durability of auto . Beside they work pretty good stone cold . Running at desired heat or getting it up to reasonable temps is for economy, fuel consumption which is hardly as issue getting it up to temp when towing . This is Australia. They use the same system in way colder climates . The standard heat exchanger is more designed for short trips .

T1 Terry · Guru

swamp wrote:
HI
U will never overcool a hardworking trans with a cooler . Some transmissions have a thermostat. Anyways a 8 inch by 11 inch by 1 1/2 inch cooler ,reasonable size but not big enough to overcool . The oil flow quickly thru cooler so that makes it difficult to extract heat. Particularly air to oil . An oil to water cooler is far more efficient but almost impossible in a car .
Anytime an oil spends over 100deg cel it degrades. Synthetics degrades a little slower

Always tow in top gear or less but not overdrive and asses how the vehicle reacts .

-- Edited by swamp on Sunday 16th of December 2018 05:06:28 PM

The first electronic controlled transmissions were in the VL Commodore and these were the first to see the symptoms of over cooled oil. Climbing through the snowy mountains during winter would result in the loss of over drive and the lock up converter for quite often long periods of time, only returning when the transmission fluid returned to operating temperature.

The old style ATF fuid did have a temp problem much over 120*C, modern fluids used these days have a much higher temperature threshold. Hard working transmission fluid does need changing more frequently and that is partly to do with the material suspended in the oil worn away from components within the transmission. Extending the lubrication life to 100,000km by maintain a lower operating temperature isn't going to extend the transmission life because the oil and filter will be so contaminated by then it will being doing damage by the accumulated build up on components by the added material the oil can no longer carry.

T1 Terry

T1 Terry · Guru

Agree with the first part, additional air flow is required across any radiator designed to move heat energy into the air. Water can carry 3 times as much heat energy as air, when we converted the passenger busses to LPG fuelled 351 Clevland engines and 4 sp Alison transmissions, we tried air to oil coolers and found they needed to be big and have a big fan and mounted away from the engines radiator. We changed to a smaller water to oil cooler and plumbed that into the heater cooling circuit. Worked a lot better and as the air to water coolers failed due to vibration we replaced them with the water to oil heat exchangers and had no more problems.
We did try a water to oil heat exchanger in the bottom radiator hose but the water flow restriction caused engine over heating problems, using the heater circuit water flow worked a treat and solved the problems
T1 Terry

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Yea horses for courses either way . One thing about an additional air cooler is its mainly going to reduce max heat when used in conjunction with existing heat exchanger. Then theres the issues with some exchangers where if NOT serviced they corode and coolest leaks into auto . Which whipes the surface off the friction parts very fast . I place a little cardboard over. 1/4 of the engine cooker in winter . Especially if Im going south west . From Penrith . The VL used a Japanese Auto . Good autos .

Wanda · Guru

Hi

Aus-Kiwi...."One thing about an additional air cooler is its mainly going to reduce max heat when used in conjunction with existing heat exchanger."

No Graeme this is not the case, well in my situation. I did tests with scan gauge before with old cooler attached(towing) and obviously after with new cooler mounted at the front with old cooler removed. Without posting all figures the difference was/is amazing which is why so "many" people are adding these translmission coolers to their vehicle when towing.

As I stated earlier, lots of info, ALL positive, especially on Carravaners Forums Dedicated Owners section (BT50).

regards
Ian

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

I wasnt meaning removing existing heat exchanger . (. TEXT for you )Unless there is issues with some Manu leaking coolant into auto . In this case heat is your least issue .

Wanda · Guru

Hi Auz-Kiwi
The point I have made is that you "can" remove the existing cooler(after installing new air cooler biggrin ) without there being any negative effect to ATM temp.
cheers
Ian

-- Edited by Wanda on Wednesday 19th of December 2018 08:52:12 AM

2-Smiths · Veteran Member

iana wrote:
Starting to think about an extra transmission oil cooler as the outside temperatures begin to climb. Driving a BT50, 3.2 auto, and monitoring the temperatures, am having to drive slower and slower to keep the temperatures within limits.
According to what I am reading 90 degrees is an ideal temperature, rising above that is reducing the working ability of the oil. 120 degrees is in tiger territory. But I see utes loaded to the hilt going full pelt, and wonder how many out there have a transmission oil temp gauge, and what their service costs must be. We manage to keep the temperature at 106 degrees, but it has climbed to 110 once or twice.
I can't also get around the idea of the fitting of coolers stacked ahead of each other at the front air intake, we have the engine radiator, then ahead of that the intercooler putting heat into the engine radiator, the air con also adding its heat ahead of the others, and then the auto transmission using heat exchangers putting its heat into the engine coolant. The hotter things get, the less efficient the whole system becomes.

Just as an aside - and apologies if it's been asked/answered elsewhere in the thread, how are you monitoring the trans. temps?

Did you have to "splice in" a separate, after-market trans. temp gauge, or are you just using an OBD2 reader to take info. from the ECU (via Torque or similar app)? In other words, is the ECU (in your case) able to give you that info.?

I've added a couple of trans. temp gauges into my Torque dashboard, but haven't actually tried it with these yet, to see if any info. is collated/displayed...

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Wanda wrote:
Hi Auz-Kiwi
The point I have made is that you "can" remove the existing cooler(after installing new air cooler) without there being any negative effect to ATM temp.
cheers
Ian

-- Edited by Wanda on Wednesday 19th of December 2018 08:52:12 AM

Yes done both over the years . Must admit Ive never done any actual temp tests . Only touched return line by hand after a hard pull towing . When you think about it ? They are designed to work no load also .. So you would think another cooler when towing is not going to hurt . Like the airbags . There was a batch of heat exchangers that where defective. Some replaced on recall but I fear many havnt ? The new turbo diesels especially with their higher rpm, torque !! Makes my 6.5 turbo diesel seem powerless !! Lol which btw has a hell big air to air cooler . As well as engine oil cooler.! Just replaced the hoses . General maintenance. These things dont last forever .

-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Wednesday 19th of December 2018 11:06:55 AM

iana · Guru

I am using a "Scan-gauge" plugged into the ECU. Also monitoring engine coolant, battery voltage and speed.

Wanda · Guru

Hi 2-Smiths

As Iana has also said, Scangauge 2, great piece of equipment.

regards
Ian

iana · Guru

I have been doing much searching and reading on the net regarding the 6R80 automatic transmission. Its fitted to many makes of vehicles world wide, including Ford F150, Mustang & Lincon series, Audi, Jaguar, Masseratti, Rolls Royce and the list goes on, so the transmission must be OK.

If there was a problem with the existing arrangement of cooling, one would have thought it would be sorted by now. It is also interesting to note that companies selling the oil cooler kit that removes the existing heat exchanger using the water contamination statement as a scare tactic. In all of my browsing, I have not found a single statement of the existing heat exchanger failing.

I can understand in the earlier days where the only cooling of the transmission was the finned surface of the transmission sump, and fitting an oil cooler up with the radiator would have been benifical. But I have trouble understanding how removing heat from the transmission, and letting the heat go infront of the coolant radiator is benificial to say keeping the engine cool.

As previously said, these plate heat exchangers are very efficient, so it may be a case of looking to improve the cooling effect through the radiator, first I shall remove the insects!

Wanda · Guru

Iana
Just a few qiuck stats

Old cooler : Towing in mild weather flat with scan gauge 2 fitted, high 90s, Towing in hot weather , ATM temp in excess of 100deg consistently. Going up hills 117deg, scary.

New cooler fitted at the front with old cooler removed : Towing in mild weather flat 90deg, Towing in hot weather has not gone above 92deg. Going up hills 95deg. No noticeable difference to eng temp.

There is a lot of info out there about adding an AT cooler, all of it is positive and a lot of AT specialists confirmed that it is excessive temps that kill these AT

cheers
Ian

PS : Had ours on for over 12mths, when I did my research I did not have one cooler supply try and scare me with "old cooler failing, allows for water to get into transmissin". But you don't have to be a brain surgeon to workout that, it is possible and could happen, and probably has!

-- Edited by Wanda on Thursday 20th of December 2018 10:00:57 AM

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Dont want to bag Ford . The BA and Terri had a bad batch . All our work ( Ausgrid) vehicles had them replaced under warranty . I have come across a few private owners that had issues . I guess not replaced or serviced properly.,

fwdoz · Guru

I have been using a gauge, however it does not monitor the auto trans temps. In early March next year I am getting a Torque Converter Lockup Kit fitted to the Prado which includes a decent gauge which has the trans temp in front of you to monitor as you tow. I know 2 guys who also tow that have had it done & both say their temps are down in the 70's/80's. Neither have a 2nd or larger trans cooler fitted.

Since I will be crossing the Nullarbor after it is fitted, I will be able to report back on how it performs & what my auto trans temps range from.

Some say large spotlights in the front impede air flow, but never found that an issue on my old Nissan Pathfinder.

iana · Guru

Todays temperature was moderate, towing three tonne at 80KPH. the coolant sat on 93' +/- 2' and the transmission sat on 103' +/- 2'. I can keep the temperature at about 107 and have at one point maxed out at 110 during yesterdays heat wave where the outside temperature got to 40' in the shade, how ever that's towing at 80kph. Would like to tow at 90 but the temp will climb.
One way of keeping the transmission temperature under control is by not using the air con. @#$%^&* is what she said to that!

Wanda · Guru

Iana
what vehicle do you tow with, and is it man or auto!

Looking at those figures, but not knowing what you tow with, I think worth investigating cooler for your tranny.
The other issue when towing in any heat, if towing in hilly areas, and we have a lot of that in Oz, transmissin temps rise even further, "considerably more". I found all this out with the Scan gauge before making my decision to get the tranny cooler installed. As I have stated, have not been "near 100deg" since installing cooler

Speak to any transmission specialist and they will tell you it is high temps that kill the auto boxes today.
cheers
Ian

Wanda · Guru

Iana
what vehicle do you tow with, and is it man or auto!

Looking at those figures, but not knowing what you tow with, I think worth investigating cooler for your tranny.
The other issue when towing in any heat, if towing in hilly areas, and we have a lot of that in Oz, transmissin temps rise even further, "considerably more". I found all this out with the Scan gauge before making my decision to get the tranny cooler installed. As I have stated, have not been "near 100deg" since installing cooler

Speak to any transmission specialist and they will tell you it is high temps that kill the auto boxes today.
cheers
Ian

Wanda · Guru

Tried to edit, would not, so reposted

Iana
what vehicle do you tow with, and is it man or auto! SEE PS below biggrinbiggrin

Looking at those figures, but not knowing what you tow with, I think worth investigating cooler for your tranny.
The other issue when towing in any heat, if towing in hilly areas, and we have a lot of that in Oz, transmissin temps rise even further, "considerably more". I found all this out with the Scan gauge before making my decision to get the tranny cooler installed. As I have stated, have not been "near 100deg" since installing cooler

Speak to any transmission specialist and they will tell you it is high temps that kill the auto boxes today.
cheers
Ian

PS : WOOPSbiggrin, just noticed vehicle details in your post, just do it, you will be amazed the difference it will make

Wanda · Guru

Tried to edit, would not, so reposted

Iana
what vehicle do you tow with, and is it man or auto! SEE PS below biggrin biggrin

Looking at those figures, but not knowing what you tow with, I think worth investigating cooler for your tranny.
The other issue when towing in any heat, if towing in hilly areas, and we have a lot of that in Oz, transmissin temps rise even further, "considerably more". I found all this out with the Scan gauge before making my decision to get the tranny cooler installed. As I have stated, have not been "near 100deg" since installing cooler

Speak to any transmission specialist and they will tell you it is high temps that kill the auto boxes today.
cheers
Ian

PS : WOOPS biggrin biggrin , just noticed vehicle details in your post, just do it, you will be amazed the difference it will make

iana · Guru

Thankyou Wanda, will consider your advise in the new year. Merry Christmas and all that.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

iana wrote:
I have been doing much searching and reading on the net regarding the 6R80 automatic transmission. Its fitted to many makes of vehicles world wide, including Ford F150, Mustang & Lincon series, Audi, Jaguar, Masseratti, Rolls Royce and the list goes on, so the transmission must be OK.

If there was a problem with the existing arrangement of cooling, one would have thought it would be sorted by now. It is also interesting to note that companies selling the oil cooler kit that removes the existing heat exchanger using the water contamination statement as a scare tactic. In all of my browsing, I have not found a single statement of the existing heat exchanger failing.

I can understand in the earlier days where the only cooling of the transmission was the finned surface of the transmission sump, and fitting an oil cooler up with the radiator would have been benifical. But I have trouble understanding how removing heat from the transmission, and letting the heat go infront of the coolant radiator is benificial to say keeping the engine cool.

As previously said, these plate heat exchangers are very efficient, so it may be a case of looking to improve the cooling effect through the radiator, first I shall remove the insects!

There are mechanics way out west making a fortune repairing auto trans . These vehicles are not specifically built to tow a caravan around Australia in 40* heat . In Aust we hardly require an auto trans heater .

iana · Guru

Dare to think differently!

Looking at American sites on coolers, there are kits available that mount the cooler in places other than in front of the engine coolant radiator, below is an example and would be quite easy to fit. Some trucks have them installed this way so it shouldn't be an issue. Thermostaticly controlled fan, should be ideal in slow moving traffic and hills.