Caravan chaos

Joda · Senior Member

Caravan chaos

Santa · Guru

Wouldn't worry too much, Current Affair = sensationalist light weight rubbish.

macka17 · Guru

If you look at some of these drivers and increases in accidents.

ANY Driver edification that helps us to be safer on the roads
HAS to be a bonus.

Too many are retirees with primary driving experience being.
family car with 6x4 on back and maybe a 16ft boat.

THEY are the ones that NEED educating.
Plus 5thers should have a "semi" licence course under their belts.
COURSE. NOT necessarily a full licence.

But some proper education.

We had to on trucks. What's so different.

Light truck for vans over, say 21 ft. and 2.8 ton. Weight and Volume.

H.V.and Bus for A. B. class M'Homes. THEY are bus bodies an chassis mainly..
And towing. Reversing LARGE box trailer courses.
for ALL new. NOT DONE Before drivers. (quite a few I'd think.)

Wait and see what they say hey.
Hopefully a few experienced (not bull****) caravanning writers.
to give the inexperienced a few pointers as they starting out.
Sizes. Weights. and consequences of.
WITH lotsa Photo's. A coupla nasty piccy's last much longer than any words..

rockylizard · Guru

macka17 wrote:
ANY Driver edification that helps us to be safer on the roads HAS to be a bonus. Yep agree 100%

Too many are retirees with primary driving experience being family car with 6x4 on back and maybe a 16ft boat.

THEY are the ones that NEED educating. Yep agree 100%

But some proper education. ya guessed it ... agree 100%

We had to on trucks. What's so different.
OK let's be very honest now. Rigorous training and licencing together with close, and constant, surveillance on the roads has not meant there are no, or very few, accidents/incidents involving trucks of any size/configuration. Therefore why will licencing people towing a trailer/van/5th wheeler reduce/remove accidents/incidents?
Licencing is a revenue-generating licencing regime - followed up with a revenue-generating punitive regime for breaches.
It is EDUCATION that is needed. Mandatory towing courses covering weights, manoeuvring, road etiquette and safe driving habits ... in fact I have been a vocal advocate for 'advanced/defence' driving course for ALL drivers at every second licence renewal. Like with so many things, governments/ministers, state or federal, don't seem to heed my advice.

Gday...

as above.

Cheers - John

brickies · Guru

People who have all the training and all the licences but have they done Phys test on them also , Most accident are caused by the nut behind the wheel .

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

OK let's be very honest now. Rigorous training and licencing together with close, and constant, surveillance on the roads has not meant there are no, or very few, accidents/incidents involving trucks of any size/configuration. Therefore why will licencing people towing a trailer/van/5th wheeler reduce/remove accidents/incidents?

Try it the other way around.

Tell all the caravan towers that they can now legally tow B Doubles tomorrow - no special license required. How do you reckon they would get on?

Cheers,

Peter

macka17 · Guru

The main thing.
is to have "prior" experience. Training. education.

ON the what if's and why's. of abnormal driving consequences.

The more education and practice. The (supposedly) more competent\safer. YOU are.

Unfortunately we all let it slip over the yrs.

Hence. as I've said b4. Every ten yrs.
I take an advanced truck driving lesson\test.

An hr behind YOUR wheel. with him looking for your acquired bad habits.
Goes a long way. (in my case) to control me and mine. (I think).

I've told him to let me know when I'm not Safely. competent to tow. and He can hang my licence up for me. Legally.

Over 75, annual medicals, control? the health side of it. We hope.
But ALL should have some instruction on towing and reversing at least.
I taught Di in Coles car Park at night. turning left and right corners. Inside lines. Reversing straight for a decent distance. and reversing diagonally between cones like a snake.
Also swerving at 35kmph. (Patrol and Tandem Semi Offroader Roadstar.
Exceptionally stable rig.)

The more you KNOW your rig. the safer you both are on the roads.
Empty roads. Take it and yourself outside your limits. (bit at a time)

Best driver training control lessons we ever got, yrs ago.
Was the WET skid pan for double Decker London buses.

AEC. ALBIONS and BRISTOLS. Later BMC.

You should read up on them. They make GREAT Motorhomes..

Smooth ashphalt. Flush water sprinklers. Cones.
Start it sliding sideways, 30 mph. Hard left or right wheel and full park brake.
then control through cones without tipping.
Those things went to 46% before going over. Bloody amazing veh's.

Reverse parking from stop on right hand side of road. Back across the street at r\h side behind you.
Parking 20 ft back. level with curb on left side of that street.
Then drive at 30 mph with covered speedo for a coupla miles. in traffic. (He had one behind you)

That public bus handling courses lessons tests. were the best ever.
Less attention taking but more veh control than UK IAM in '60's.
that was 110% Attention in all directions at all times. plus your control. Very enjoyable.
Actually helped my mental state for rallying the Anglia. (They slid beautifully under control)

-- Edited by macka17 on Friday 10th of November 2017 11:34:53 AM

rockylizard · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
OK let's be very honest now. Rigorous training and licencing together with close, and constant, surveillance on the roads has not meant there are no, or very few, accidents/incidents involving trucks of any size/configuration. Therefore why will licencing people towing a trailer/van/5th wheeler reduce/remove accidents/incidents?
Try it the other way around.
Tell all the caravan towers that they can now legally tow B Doubles tomorrow - no special license required. How do you reckon they would get on?
Cheers,
Peter

Gday...

confuse for someone who has demonstrated consistently on this (and other forums) a good knowledge, a clear thinking mind, one who imparts good knowledge/experience, that comment does not become you.

It is a ridiculous response, sorry Peter.

My point is that LICENCING a driver, for operating ANY machinery, in itself, will NEVER remove accidents/incidents from the roads.

It is not the LICENCING that makes a better operator of machinery. EVERY driver on the road has been through a "licencing" process and has that stopped accidents/incidents??

Unfortunately, I could fill pages here with the submissions I, and other motoring experts, have made to governments over the years with suggestions on how to improve road safety, driver knowledge, driver attitude etc that WOULD make a difference ... but I won't bore.

Any licence regime that will apply to towing a trailer/van/5th wheeler etc would be a tiered affair, such as LR, HR, etc. So will there be a licence for a 6x4, a camper trailer, a single axle 12ft van. a single 18ft van, a dual axle 18ft van, a dual axle 21ft or dual axle 23ft ... or would it be done on GTM? One for 750Kg, upto 2,000Kg upto 3,000Kg, upto 3,500Kg.

I can well imagine the sort of 'test procedure' a government would institute for a 'vanner's licence' ... about as good as the licence test that gives the 17year old access to a P plate. I doubt anyone would suggest that 'licence training/test' teaches how to operate a vehicle - in ALL situations.

The reason people get into trouble when towing a van is they are IGNORANT until they gain EXPERIENCE .... a well-structured training course, covering the items I mentioned in my earlier post, with a high pass mark to gain the 'certificate' would, in my opinion, be more productive.

Give a government the excuse to introduce a "licence regime" and it will simply be a revenue-generating stream and the INTENDED outcome of better driver knowledge and abilities will NOT be achieved.

OH, I wonder if those who drive motorhomes of 4.3Kg GVM need a special licence as well? ... GEEZ, some of them are monoliths.

However, I guess that is just my opinion.

Cheers - John

-- Edited by rockylizard on Friday 10th of November 2017 11:47:07 AM

macka17 · Guru

And a lot of the Motorhomes are on 53seat chassis too.

We've been saying for decades.
People need INSTRUCTION with maybe a sticker on licence to show you've had some Instruction.

I had intsruction\Training permits to 1000 ton cranes(1-4 permit. Gotwald Ring Beam.Mobiles)
and 600ton Heavy.

Didn't MAKE me a better driver though.
Just a MORE ATTERNTIVE one with a LOT more experience than some others.

Tony Bev · Guru

Some years ago, I read that the traffic infringement fines were increased over the holiday periods, to stop the road toll

Someone, somewhere, had joined the following dots together

People getting off the employment playground
Heading directly to their vehicle
Trying to reach the holiday playground, as fast as they could
Being slowed by holiday traffic
Becoming tired/irritable
Taking chances, they may not normally take, to get to their destination quicker, resulting in causing, or being involved in accidents

The above sounds to me like someone throwing caution to the wind, while also breaking the road rules
Because many of us were in the same situation, of going from A to B, without breaking the road rules, and not being involved, or causing accidents, therefore never being fined

I am one of the first to say, with all sincerity, that it is sad to hear of any accident

My opinions are
If a person without any previous towing experience, goes on a towing course, they will learn a few things to their own benefit, which may save the life of someone
If a person in any sort of Recreation Vehicle, is involved, or causes an accident, they should be re-educated, (at their own cost), on how to drive/tow that RV, this may give an incentive to go on a towing course, before the fines come
I do not believe that each and everyone of us, should be re-educated, as a revenue gathering exercise, as some of us are already responsible enough, to do the right thing

jules47 · The Happy Helper

"My opinions are
If a person without any previous towing experience, goes on a towing course, they will learn a few things to their own benefit, which may save the life of someone
If a person in any sort of Recreation Vehicle, is involved, or causes an accident, they should be re-educated, (at their own cost), on how to drive/tow that RV, this may give an incentive to go on a towing course, before the fines come
I do not believe that each and everyone of us, should be re-educated, as a revenue gathering exercise, as some of us are already responsible enough, to do the right thing"

Not only the driving capabilities , but the capability of loading their vans right, are some of the things that need to be taught, how many vans have you seen either pointing up, or pointing down - get it right guys, makes for better stability.

Ge · Senior Member

Sometimes like now On this occasion Macka 17 you are 100 yr old inspiration " NOT " this time.

Tony Bev said,
if a person without any previous towing experience, goes on a towing course, they will learn a few things to their own benefit, which may save the life of someone
If a person in any sort of Recreation Vehicle, is involved, or causes an accident, they should be re-educated, (at their own cost), on how to drive/tow that RV, this may give an incentive to go on a towing course, before the fines come
I do not believe that each and everyone of us, should be re-educated, as a revenue gathering exercise, as some of us are already responsible enough, to do the right thing.

I agree T & B as said many times before to get people who have a tug and van to do a tow course, insurance comp should insist they do it or no insurance.
This will at least give people a basic idea.

As for the a current affair 10th. Nov, program i would take what they say with a grain of salt, but lets all watch it tonight maybe it will be just one bloke taking the lead to push his own personal agenda. Thanks "joda" for starting the topic and bringing it
to our attention. smile sorry i try to be as diplomatic as i can. furious

-- Edited by Ge on Friday 10th of November 2017 02:42:06 PM

-- Edited by Ge on Friday 10th of November 2017 02:45:55 PM

-- Edited by Ge on Friday 10th of November 2017 02:50:11 PM

macka17 · Guru

GE.

We've ALL had experiences to whatever levels. on lots of things.
Some useful some... Hmm Not so.

The more we can get out there. the better.

We'd have well over a thousand yrs of experiences to share between us.
Over a HUGE level of trades. whatever.

Hopefully we CAN succeed to spread some around hey.

Ge · Senior Member

Point taken Macka all good mate.

Tony Bev · Guru

I have just watched the show on telly
They mentioned Grey Nomads

All I saw were some very inconsiderate caravan owners, not obeying the road rules, and someone damaging their caravan, in a car park
Plus one crashed caravan, without any dash cam footage, to say how it crashed

I fail to see how someone can be a Grey Nomad, if they keep crashing their caravan
I have yet to see a Grey Nomad, walk into a free camp with nothing, looking for a space to set up, because their caravan was in the panel beaters
Even the long distance cyclist, have some sort of swag

I will assume that a real Grey Nomad, away from their home base, (if they have one), would be going out of their way, not to become involved in an accident

Am I missing something here
Or are my eyes playing tricks on me

Ge · Senior Member

I watched the show and i think maybe the journo from the Courier mail has a personal beef with caravans,

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

rockylizard wrote:

confuse for someone who has demonstrated consistently on this (and other forums) a good knowledge, a clear thinking mind, one who imparts good knowledge/experience,...snip...

Why thank you :)

We currently have a situation where to get any license or to upgrade an existing license (car, motorcycle, truck, boat, aeroplane) requires both a theoretical and usually a practical test. That would seem to be sensible and consistent.

It is not possible to drive a light truck with a GVM of 4.6T (even if it actually weighs less than 3T at the time) without a LR truck license.

But anyone with a car license (and zero towing experience) can legally drive a 9T combination vehicle and trailer at 100kph anywhere that the speed limit allows.

That seems pretty silly, to me.

I suggest that a more sensible approach would be to require a new license to drive any combination that exceeds 4.5T gross.

So, (for example) a 3T (loaded) 4WD towing a 1.5T (loaded) trailer would be on the limit of a car license.

A new "special license" would allow a light vehicle (up to GVM 4.5T) to tow a light trailer (up to GTM 4.5T) providing no other ratings are exceeded. That license would need both theory and practical tests involving towing.

Cheers,

Peter

Ron-D · Guru

Consider the amount of caravans on the road ,the amount of a seriouse accidents is practically nothing,caravans are usually owned by mature experienced drivers,can you really imagine that volume of these mature mostly experienced drivers haveing to tow there rigs to register offices in there thousands I cant, to me I can see where your coming from with the safety aspect,but it's so rare it would be more trouble than it's worth if you think sensibly...

DMaxer · Guru

I didn't see the show but I can imagine if they had a show on caravan drivers all it would mean is that they have run out of stories about dodgy car dealers or questionable investment advisers or someone owning thirteen barking dogs.

I think some of the people towing huge boats or the neighbours heading off to the local tip with an overloaded box trailer pose more of a threat on our roads than someone towing a caravan. With the rare exception, the people I see towing caravans are driving safely, within the speed limit and quite aware of their fellow road users.

I think this story can be filed next to the ones about new regulations for shackles, the legal meaning of camping and general whinging about the costs of caravan park accommodation.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

This link was posted by Rob Mac on another thread on here about this subject.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-09/should-caravan-owners-undergo-compulsory-towing-education/9031486

A good opinion from someone who has 'at hand' knowledge.

Snipped from the link -

Van 05.jpg

Cheers - John

Dickodownunder · Guru

Ge wrote:
I watched the show and i think maybe the journo from the Courier mail has a personal beef with caravans,

I got the same feelings and apart from his one sided innaccurate (in the most part) comments, the balance of the report was really just sensationalism.

Am I surprised....no, not really.

montie · Guru

I think the first thing we need to ascertain is do we actually have a problem with poor driving or accidents by caravan owners.
If we accept the media's sensationalist view we do, however nobody seems to be able to produce any real facts or figures to support that. A prominent poster on another forum believes we have around 500 rollovers per annum but cannot produce any supporting facts.

I guess the question is that in the big picture is 500 rollovers a material figure. There are, after all over 500,000 rv's registered nationally. That's just 1%!

On the flip side, as a dealer, I see on a weekly basis, first time caravan buyers setting off to live the dream with a 6 tonne plus combination, where the only towing experience they have is pulling a box trailer to the tip once a month at best!
I do think licensing is not necessary but an accredited tow ed course should be mandatory.

Ron-D · Guru

What you say makes sense but have you considered people like myself with a heavy vehicle liscence having to do a couse on basic towing skills what a joke.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Simple Ron.

I don't support the need for a 'dedicated' caravan towing licence but I do advocate for mandatory training/education of drivers prior to their being able to tow trailers exceeding 750Kg.

To address the instance you, and many, many others, would be in is a simple solution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_prior_learning

"Recognition of prior learning (RPL), prior learning assessment (PLA), or prior learning assessment and recognition (PLAR), describes a process used by regulatory bodies, .. around the world to evaluate skills and knowledge acquired outside the classroom for the purpose of recognizing competence against a given set of standards, competencies, or learning outcomes."

Whether a licence, or just a mandatory requirement to achieve a set level of skill through training/education, RPL can easily be included.

Cheers - John

Dickodownunder · Guru

I think monties statement re the accredited Tow Ed. course being mandatory would only need apply to those drivers who are only licenced for a car or a licence that only covered the licencee up to 4.5 tonne.
Obviously these are only my thoughts but personally I can not see any value in training the experienced.

Dickodownunder · Guru

Typing while you were posting RockyLizard,

Yes RPL would cover that situation..

montie · Guru

I have not given much thought to how a mandatory training system might be administered, I would leave that to the people more qualified to do so.

I would imagine it would be connected to the registration of a new caravan and transfer of a preowned one. A system such as this could also exempt certain current licence holders where towing experience is necessary to hold such a licence. I would add however, that holding a rigid licence such as LR, MR does not mean you have towing experience.

SouthernComfort · Guru

Dickodownunder wrote:
Typing while you were posting RockyLizard,

Yes RPL would cover that situation..

Unfortunately applying for RPL wouldn't stand up without documentation. In environments where RPL is applied towards accreditation, there are rigorous requirements to provide documented evidence of experience. Even long term van ownership doesn't indicated how often you've towed it.

rockylizard · Guru

SouthernComfort wrote:
Dickodownunder wrote:
Typing while you were posting RockyLizard,

Yes RPL would cover that situation..
Unfortunately applying for RPL wouldn't stand up without documentation. In environments where RPL is applied towards accreditation, there are rigorous requirements to provide documented evidence of experience. Even long term van ownership doesn't indicated how often you've towed it.

Gday...

Bit like pulling teeth sometimes cry

RPL wouldn't, and shouldn't, apply to "long term van ownership" as you suggest ... I was indicating that the attaining, holding, and demonstrated use of a "heavy vehicle endorsement" would/could perhaps be used/considered through RPL to offset the need for the holder of heavy vehicle endorsements to attain a "mandatory caravan/trailer" licence.

Although, holding a LR, MR, HR etc does not, in itself, indicate the ability to handle an "articulated" rig such as a loaded Landcruiser and 24ft, 3,000Kg van. However, a HC, MC might be able to get RPL.

As can be seen, a special licence for caravan towing is fraught with conundrums. hmm

Obviously, any thinking, logical person realises that there is considerable 'knowledge' required to load and tow caravans. However, I don't think a licence is the answer. Struth, even 'training' someone to choose the right vehicle to tow "X" caravan - weight ratings etc etc.

It is very logical that a person needs to have 'experience' to tow ... but I doubt a licence is the answer ... rather there is a strong case for education.

Having said that, one can be subjected to all the education in the world but without the ability to translate that education into experience it won't do anything either. Just look how competent many P-platers are.

Also, whether a 'special licence test' or mandated education is considered, try devising the course that will train a driver to meet all the conditions required. Despite the excellence of a Tow-Ed course, it is really just scratching the surface of the quantum leap required to inject "years of experience" into the 'new' vanner. And when you have devised such a course, determine the cost of provision ...

Jest sayin' hmm

Cheers - John

Desert Dweller · Guru

A caravan towing course is a pretty good idea me thinks. There should also be a rule that if you can't reverse park it you can't tow it. That'd take a few off the road.