Last weekend I visited the Brisbane showgrounds where Qld Transport Inspectors along with Caravanning Qld held a weigh in and information day. we had to book and I was a little sceptical. The outcome is that I need to get my Coromal Element 632 re assessed up to 2600Kg. We were 160Kg over with the van packed ready to go. The ball weight has me stuffed it came in at 260 - we are allowed 270 on our diesel territory. How do I get the weight off the ball? I have everything stowed under the bed which is at the front, The water tanks are also at the front of the axels. I am looking to fit two pole carriers to the rear bumper section for the annex poles etc and possibly relocating the most forward tank to behind the axels. Your thoughts will be appreciated.
Welcome to the gang Mick n I, enjoy here and out in the playground.
I had weight problems with my TeePee ealier this year and chose to get rid of 'stuff' instead of increasing ATM on compliance plate. The main reason was, the manufacture is now out of business and the dealer moved to their head office and didn't want to know me as the TeePee is 3 years old. Worked too as I started out 100kg over the ATM and now 60kg under. Tow ball is 100kg under. The Tug was and still is under in all areas and that was the plan when looking around to purchase the tug. I am full time on the road and have missed nothing I got rid off.
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Live Life On Your Terms
DOUGChief One Feather (Losing feathers with age)
TUG.......2014 Holden LT Colorado Twin Cab Ute with Canopy
DEN....... 2014 "Chief" Arrow CV (with some changes)
Changing a figure on a compliance plate is not the answer without structurally upgrading your van for the additional load over & above the old plated figure.
The best way of getting rid of excess weight is to cull some the ''essential items'' that you rarely use. We travel with our water tank slightly over half full to remain legal.
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Cheers Keith & Judy
Don't take life too seriously, it never ends well.
Trip Reports posted on feathersandphotos.com.au Go to Forums then Trip Reports.
Re (and possibly relocating the most forward tank to behind the axels.)
Were both tanks full?
The situation as I see it, you are looking at an ATM of 2600Kg ( can the Territory pull this legally?) normal rule of thumb for Oz built caravans is 10%, on the towball so that's around 260Kg,( which is what you have) I understand some Overseas vans are down to 5 and 7% of the ATM on the towball, but they are designed from the ground up with this in mind.
Moving both tanks and deep cycle batteries behind the axles will reduce the towball load, but may impact towing stability.
Your Coromal could well have its ATM upgraded, but I think you are on the limit with your Tug.
Just check the figures stamped on your chassis rails by MFG of.
NOT the van builders numbers on plate. That can be anything the wooden box builder put on it.
The other (Real One).. Is the max limit that chassis can carry regardless of suspensions. whatever.
The figure it is stress welded to at IT'S MAX S.W.loading.
Then Susp to suit stuck underneath.
A chassis is designed and built to a certain max loading.
Anybody that gets figures to go over that point. NO Matter what they add to it. Susp etc,
IS not really SAFE. (IF They have done so)
Tube material Grading, thickness. dimensions. tube weld lengths. Gusset positions and sizes.
Even drawbar length in front of sq frame crosspieces. and mounting of ball cup plate\s.
All come into it.
You should have seen what the engineers did when assessing a trailer composition for the heavy Haulage. 3\4 600ton. Even wheel stud dimensions and gaps t'ween axles and hubs for tyre load distortion.
Over the top here,I know. But.
EVERYTHING is normally built to a load safety limit.
with N deg's of safety built in. Varying on final costing of "per item".
Even your little 6x4 Galv.
The more you get to nearer to that over estimate. and to the Design Max load limits.
The nearer you are to "whoopsy. I didn't expect that to happen."
IE. That bent\broke chassis problem in a post here. Sooner him than me. Poor bloke.
I wouldn't be going much over a designed chassis stated limits myself on these toys.
Just remember.
THEY ARE BUILT TO A PRICE......... And it's shaved pretty thin nowadays.
There's Very LITTLE Overbuild for overbuild and reputations sake I'm afraid.
Unlike the old days. Everybody is going "Lighter. Lighter. and MORE inside. MORE inside.
with smaller tugs and bigger engines.
Perfect recipe's for things going wrong. As they are starting to.
Last weekend I visited the Brisbane showgrounds where Qld Transport Inspectors along with Caravanning Qld held a weigh in and information day. we had to book and I was a little sceptical. The outcome is that I need to get my Coromal Element 632 re assessed up to 2600Kg. We were 160Kg over with the van packed ready to go. The ball weight has me stuffed it came in at 260 - we are allowed 270 on our diesel territory. How do I get the weight off the ball? I have everything stowed under the bed which is at the front, The water tanks are also at the front of the axels. I am looking to fit two pole carriers to the rear bumper section for the annex poles etc and possibly relocating the most forward tank to behind the axels. Your thoughts will be appreciated.
First thing you need to establish is the Axle Group Rating for your van. That will be the maximum you will be allowed to upgrade to.
Ball weight of 260kg is around 10% of ATM which is fine. You need to be careful relocating weight rear of the axle group, it could create instability problems.
The water tanks were at 50% each. The territory is rated at 2700kg tow capacity - its the top of the range unit so has the extra capacity. We are looking at the "essentials" carried under the bed so this may make a difference. I was mostly concerned with the 260 and wondering if I could get it lower by moving stuff?
If something was stamped as having a safe load capacity of say 2400kg & you get it re-stamped to say 2800kg without any strengthening being applied, why was it stamped at the lesser figure originally?
Answer: Because the original figure WAS the safe load capacity that the caravan could take.
Having worked in structural engineering design all of my working life you can't just upgrade a figure without a structural upgrade to cope with that figure.
Imagine a bridge that can safely take the load of a 20 ton truck driving over it. It has a sign saying 20 ton load limit.
Now imagine changing the sign to 30 ton load limit WITHOUT reinforcing the bridge. A 30 ton truck drives over it & it collapses.
It's the same thing with compliance plates.
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Cheers Keith & Judy
Don't take life too seriously, it never ends well.
Trip Reports posted on feathersandphotos.com.au Go to Forums then Trip Reports.
If something was stamped as having a safe load capacity of say 2400kg & you get it re-stamped to say 2800kg without any strengthening being applied, why was it stamped at the lesser figure originally?
Answer: Because the original figure WAS the safe load capacity that the caravan could take.
Having worked in structural engineering design all of my working life you can't just upgrade a figure without a structural upgrade to cope with that figure.
Imagine a bridge that can safely take the load of a 20 ton truck driving over it. It has a sign saying 20 ton load limit.
Now imagine changing the sign to 30 ton load limit WITHOUT reinforcing the bridge. A 30 ton truck drives over it & it collapses.
It's the same thing with compliance plates.
In most cases you have two different weight ratings for a caravan. ATM as stamped on the compliance plate and Axle Group Rating which can be on the Compliance Plate or the drawbar. Many manufacturers set ATM ratings to suit a market for certain tow vehicles and this rating is usually well below the maximum rating of Axle Group Rating which is set by the chassis manufacturer. With new vans an ATM upgrade is available with approval of the manufacturer to a limit of the Axle Group Rating, provided it is done before the van is registered at no charge. After the van is registered an upgrade may be available through the services of an engineer.
Most vans, unless there is another limiting component, can have the ATM upgraded to the Axle Group Rating.
Could you please clarify your situation a bit more please. Were you told that your ATM was over or that your GCM was over. There are two very different possible scenarios here. In other words, was it the combination of your tug and van that was over or was it that your van weight was over.
If you know what the scales reading for your axle group was, that would help to clarify further.
Whilst I agree totally with everything that Montie has stated previously, it would be good to know what your actual VIN ratings are for your axle group and your ATM as they are at present. Also, is your ball mass on the VIN plate the mass as measured at TARE by the van manufacturer or is it the maximum permissible ball mass when the van is loaded. I know that you have stated that your tow vehicle has a maximum ball rating of 270Kg. but what is on the VIN plate of your van with respect to the tow ball mass. It will be either one or the other. This is another one of the many traps built into the RV manufacturing industry that urgently requires standardisation.
In relation to the matter of moving loading and equipment further aft and away from the axle group, please have a look at the following. It is a simple practical illustration of potential for trailer instability based on the placement of loading away from the axle group.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFzrWHTG5e8
In relation the mater of someone advising you to get your van rating upgraded to a higher figure, I assume that you are talking about getting the ATM upgraded. I hope you are not referring to the Axle Group Rating. In either case, I feel very strongly about such a suggestion and to be told that at such an event.......well I will not comment any further because I was not there and also because I (like Montie) have a very definite opinion of such a practice. One thing that I will say about such a course of action is this...if you were to consider such a course of action, then please check the GCM rating of your tow vehicle and make sure that you are not "solving" one problem and creating another in its place.
Would be interesting to hear further about what your weigh-in readings were.
Basically you can get a compliance plate restamped to a higher number to make it legal but that doesn't necessarily make it a safe proposition on the highway. Only less weight or stronger engineering can do that.
__________________
Cheers Keith & Judy
Don't take life too seriously, it never ends well.
Trip Reports posted on feathersandphotos.com.au Go to Forums then Trip Reports.
A lot of people on here don't realise it's not just the rails in thge Chassis that stipulates Max Total figure
It's the assembly of a lot of different peices, in different places. with different welds. Lengths of,
a 2in stitch holds less than a 3 in etc. etc.
As they are a mixture of sq tubes. They can't be welded solid.
The "stitch" lengths give flexibilty. with strength according to length of.
Mixed with a lot of other things.
If anybody expands the weighload of an assembly. ANY assembly of parts.
over it's stamped and plated weights.
The WHOLE thing has to be reassessed. Tube dimensions. WALL thickness. Gussets. Welds, etc etc.
to take it SAFELY...OVER what it was rated at in the beginning.
TO the new ratings.
Just look at the reports on Modern Utes with theirs bent\twisted. cracked chassis rails
A fixed dimension piece of metal WILL let go. No matter what you put on to it for "extra" strength.
Once.... IT'S Structural designed strength is exceeded..
I wish some of you engineers on here would just put down on paper, Just a little of the basics involved.
I'm NOT a welder.
but spent a LOT of yrs working with the top Certificated welders. (You pick up a lot believe me.)
On Pipelines. Bridges. Construction. Factory's
even some time in a shipyard. (on cranes plus welding my yacht where I was capable.)
Also have a copy of "Lysaght Reference" here. (23rd edition. old.)
It's a reference of all types of metals. screws. sheets of.
Anything based on Iron. Copper. Ally. Bronze. the lot.
with indications of what you can and can't do with them. stresses and strengths.
A Reference. But gives a person an inkling of what's involved.
The more newbies. (and others) learn about such things. Before stepping in.
The safer everybody will be.
An easy way to lower the ball weight and make the van more stable is to increase the length of the draw bar i guess an engineer would have to rubber stamp any work done but thats how i fixed an old van of mine that was a pig to tow.
thanks for all the replies - now I am sorting my way through the lot of them. BTW the person at the event who spoke about changing figures did a whole lot of measurements, took photos etc before coming up with a "possible" answer - he is an engineer who hails from up Bundy way. Everything I have read is all relevant and I take it on board again thanks Nomads.
mustangdud, I have to disagree with what you have posted re construction, the jayco system of deep channels is a very strong form of construction, any aircraft you have flown in will be built along similar lines, the G&S Chassis as you have shown looks like it is built for weight and little strength, in fact the strongest area to weld on RHS is along the edge, and from what I can see, there isn't any weld there, the RHS lacks depth which is where the strength comes from.
I do like the fact there are many areas where tek screws can be fastened to.
Continuing on that note, spiders web is known to be a very strong substance, the fact that Jayco have been wise enough to incorporate that into the builb shows how advanced they are.
I think it's true, engineering is everything, the Jayco may be as strong as G&S but using absolute minimum thickness and least amount of steel.
It looks like a budget chassis that's built to its weight class & not upgradable.
A friend asked Jayco if he could get his van GVM upgraded like I did. Jayco won't do it.
You will see that kind of construction everywhere, supporting the decking and flooring of steel and aluminum boats, truck chassis, ship and bridge construction, its the depth of the web that gives the strength. Just to give Jayco a bit more of a nudge, when we brought our van (Jayco), they asked me if I wanted the GVM increased, and I said no, I wanted to carry any extra weight in the tug. That may not be the case in all their vans, but it was definitely the case in ours.
Jayco do not change VIN plates as a matter of policy after the van leaves the factory. It has nothing to do with manufacture, but what has been done to the chassis since it has left the factory. They do not know what each owner has done to the chassis re fitting extras, and drilling, so will not alter weights. I know this as I asked when I sought an increase. They will change ATM and GTM at time of manufacture (or did) by increasing load allowance from 475 kg on tandem shower vans to 600 kg. for vans with the 150 mm chassis.
It has nothing to do with the chassis manufacture. If you look at the material used and the manner of manufacture, it is the same for all sizes of their vans, with the chassis main rails increasing when they go to 18 foot models I believe.
Also, what do you base your comment regarding the gauge of the steel used versus the steel used in the G & S chassis on? Are you sure that Jayco use a smaller gauge steel than G & S, or do you base your comment on looking at the picture? I know Jayco have issues with QC when vans leave the factory, but I have not heard of issues with chassis problems such as bending or breaking being among the faults.
Apologies to Mick for taking this further off from your question re lowering ball weight. As for increasing your ATM, approach Coromal in WA in the first instance to see if it can be done easily from them, other wise it will require engineering assistance. As for the ball weight, as long as you are within your Territory's limits, don't drop the ball weight too much as it will assist with stability when towing as others have said. That said, if you are worried, you could drop it a little by moving things around inside the van. Just experiment when at home and see what effect you can have.
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Wednesday 1st of November 2017 10:13:52 AM
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Regards Ian
Chaos, mayhem, confusion. Good my job here is done
Good morning Ian,
You are correct, I was asked about the weight increase before the build.
My comment to mustangdude was not to begin an arguement, but rather to point out that the method of construction that Jayco use i.e. deep ribs was in fact a strong and light contruction, but also the strength of the van chassis (resistance to twisting) would also come from the rigidity of the body overall. Some times sales pitch can be misleading.
I didn't intend starting an argument, but I do get a annoyed with continual reference to issues as being related to Jayco, especially where it bears little if any relation to the question being asked.
I accept that they do have issues with QC, but I am not aware of any major chassis issues with them, and to suggest that the chassis is inferior, without any evidence as far as I am aware, is annoying. Both of our recent Outback vans have been used on roads and tracks such as the Oodnadatta Track and the Mungo Road in western NSW, and they shown no chassis issues at all.
Anyway, back to Mick and his question regarding a Coromal van.
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Regards Ian
Chaos, mayhem, confusion. Good my job here is done
Hey Ian,
Sorry to annoy you about my observations.
I'm not an engineer or have any qualifications in the field. This was just my own thoughts and opinions.
The Jayco looks like pressed steel and galvanized so the thickness looks so light. The G&S looks like 1.5mm RHS, but I haven't measured either so my thoughts are baseless.
Jim.
