Catch 22 on Over Weight Van

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

RE: Catch 22 on Over Weight Van

Dougwe · Chief one feather

If you are asking me AK, I have a heavy licence.

Possum3 · Guru

Doug, When we were diverted in and checked (between Camooweal and Mt Isa) on weigh station, they weighed the whole combination (TUG & VAN) i.e.GCM = We were ok they also checked hitch, chains, lights and we were breath tested by Police.

There was one chap there that was a very unhappy puppy as they had gone over on first weigh, then they dropped van which was way over (no pun intended) on the weighbridge - They put a canary on the van and told him to get a truck from Mt Isa to come and take his van.

That was last September and I reckon he is still dancing and carrying on.

macka17 · Guru

Boat.
Motorbike.
Car. 4,5t(and trlr to 4.5ton) or thereabouts.
Light truck.
Heavy Truck. (to 8 wheelers) which includes buses and Cranes.
The reason I keep mine current.
But NOT combination buses I believe. (Bendy in middly)
Semi (used to be split lengths?
B-Double.
Multi. 3,4, and 5 drags. Was to 103 ton basic, but I'm 15 yrs out of it.
Heavy haulage of differing weights.
and A Dangerous goods endorsement which I had
to 6 yrs ago.

Peter Rose · Veteran Member

Dougwe wrote:
Sorry Peter but this is not answering your question but I didn't want to start another thread on ATM's.

Out of curiosity and being a VIC rego and not in VIC I decided to ring our Vic Roads people and speak with them about, how they actually weigh caravans and cars etc when towing. After about one hour on the phone and three different people I was told "they are not sure". My question was, do they weigh the car and van connected or take van off the tow ball and weigh the van and car seperate as well as hooked up. Mmmmmm. Maybe I should go find a truck weighbridge that is open and ask the uniform guys.

-- Edited by Dougwe on Thursday 25th of May 2017 11:13:13 AM

I would be very interested in the answer as I have been given several versions. Even the engineer was not sure !!!
which makes YER FINK DUNNIT !!

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Possum3 wrote:
Doug, When we were diverted in and checked (between Camooweal and Mt Isa) on weigh station, they weighed the whole combination (TUG & VAN) i.e.GCM = We were ok they also checked hitch, chains, lights and we were breath tested by Police.

There was one chap there that was a very unhappy puppy as they had gone over on first weigh, then they dropped van which was way over (no pun intended) on the weighbridge - They put a canary on the van and told him to get a truck from Mt Isa to come and take his van.

That was last September and I reckon he is still dancing and carrying on.

Sorry sgain Peter but all the comments here might help someone out and threads tend to wonder from side to side anyway.

Collin, my GCM is under as is the Collie but found out the van is a little over so working on that now. It's hard being on the road full time though but I WILL beat it. I, unlike some, choose to be under, even if only 5kg, it's still under and won't face that problem you mentioned above.

I will though, wave to those on the side of road waiting for the truck to take their van away. Afterall, it is the polite thing to do biggrin

This all reminds me of the number plate height issue, I beat that one too.

Keep Safe on the roads and out there.

Footprints · Senior Member

While I acknowledge that the industry needs a complete shake up I also believe that ultimately the onus is on the customer to do his/her research. I like many others starting out considered the Landcruiser or Patrol option for a tow vehicle however when I considered that I wanted to be self contained and "Free camp" it became obvious that the limitations if any would be determined by both power and water requirements. How could I carry adequate water? Power not so much of a problem with solar on the van, add 3kva Honda to tow vehicle and 2 extra water tanks to a Short wheelbase Truck and all weight issues do not exist based on the heaviest caravan which would be 3.5 tonnes. By having a short wheel base truck it is much more manoeuvrable that most Dual cab utes and no need for some big bulky Yank Tank can park in any city street parking space or supermarket parking lot. The current Dual cab utes are only toys expected to do the work of a truck in my opinion, if you seriously take a look at the side view of any of them they are no more than a sedan with a boot without a lid on it. It is so important to do all the research and demand what we require when purchasing.The manufacturer weighed the completed van on the day of collection and weigh bridge certificate provided.My van has a tare of 2840kg and a maximun of 3500 leaving me with 650kgs to load into the van. Small truck has a GCM of 8000/9000kgs so theoretically I could carry 1500 litres of water and camp of indefinite periods of time. A vehicle such as mine can be purchased new at a cheaper price than the latest Ford Ranger etc. The decision was a no brainer, drives like a car, no weight issues, ample power, appointments the same as found in all modern utes etc. and safe and stable on all road surfaces and economical too. The past couple of years has proven time and time again to be an ideal combination.(see Avatar).

By the way the whole rig is now up for sale due to personal issues.

Cheers Allen

Ron-D · Guru

Your right in a lot of what you say Allen but take my case I have a two ton Van ,my Mitsubishi challenger pulls it really well,it has a 3. Ton load capacity ,300 kg ball capacity, I have no room at home for a truck and really it would be just overkill...

Radar · Guru

Footprints wrote:
While I acknowledge that the industry needs a complete shake up I also believe that ultimately the onus is on the customer to do his/her research. I like many others starting out considered the Landcruiser or Patrol option for a tow vehicle however when I considered that I wanted to be self contained and "Free camp" it became obvious that the limitations if any would be determined by both power and water requirements. How could I carry adequate water? Power not so much of a problem with solar on the van, add 3kva Honda to tow vehicle and 2 extra water tanks to a Short wheelbase Truck and all weight issues do not exist based on the heaviest caravan which would be 3.5 tonnes. By having a short wheel base truck it is much more manoeuvrable that most Dual cab utes and no need for some big bulky Yank Tank can park in any city street parking space or supermarket parking lot. The current Dual cab utes are only toys expected to do the work of a truck in my opinion, if you seriously take a look at the side view of any of them they are no more than a sedan with a boot without a lid on it. It is so important to do all the research and demand what we require when purchasing.The manufacturer weighed the completed van on the day of collection and weigh bridge certificate provided.My van has a tare of 2840kg and a maximun of 3500 leaving me with 650kgs to load into the van. Small truck has a GCM of 8000/9000kgs so theoretically I could carry 1500 litres of water and camp of indefinite periods of time. A vehicle such as mine can be purchased new at a cheaper price than the latest Ford Ranger etc. The decision was a no brainer, drives like a car, no weight issues, ample power, appointments the same as found in all modern utes etc. and safe and stable on all road surfaces and economical too. The past couple of years has proven time and time again to be an ideal combination.(see Avatar).
By the way the whole rig is now up for sale due to personal issues.
Cheers Allen

Hi Allen and hope all goes well for you.

Yes we all need to do research when purchasing a product, now this is where it gets tricky, you pick up a couple of glossy mags on cars and caravans for ideas, then head to the local shows, head to the show rooms, pick the colours and wham oh, you have brought a over rated car for towing, over loaded caravan all researched at the mags, shows and showrooms.

The researh you have collected is from journalist, sales people and your best mate down the road who has been caravaning for 30 years. That my friend is why so many people are in trouble.

I picked a caravaning mag the other day which I am a subscriber to and will not be renewing fixtured a story on a off road caravan single axle with a 3200 gross weight on it (I am away from home to be sure of the weight but it was near that weight) and filled up about 6 pages making out that the buying caravan public are criminals with there over weight car and caravans.

This same mag is the one I read back in 2012 again about 2015 and said to myself thats a balanced caravan, our looks like similarto the one in the mag, can be towed behind a car with 2500kg rating, we have 3000kg rating but bet London to a brick the weights are wrong.

Now this brings me to the safety bit from a old transport driver, when we have a on thats not as good as the last we drive to the conditions, transport loads sometimes are not what they seem, not alls are balanced, equal or low, they can be the total opposite, we just settle down and drove to the conditions and that is what most people would do with there caravans.

That is my thoughts for what its worth.

Mike Harding · Guru

TheHeaths wrote:
Peter,

you and Mike make a good pair based on your posts and replies on this forum.

I don't understand. What do you mean?

Mike Harding · Guru

Kebbin wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Peter Rose wrote:
Made in 2003 by a manufacturer that is no longer in business ( Viscount ) this situation highlights the need for standards to be imposed on caravan manufacturers to ensure compliance plates are meaningful.
I think I'd remove the plate and toss it in the bin - but I'm that sort of maverick :)
I'm not sure that maverick comes close to your way of thinking Mike.

From the Concise Oxford English Dictionary: maverick, noun [often as modifier] an unorthodox or independent-minded person

Well; I certainly don't think like a wimp who want a note from his mum saying it's all be OK before he has the courage to take an independent decision. Far too many people operate like that these days.

macka17 · Guru

""""Now this brings me to the safety bit from a old transport driver, when we have a on thats not as good as the last we drive to the conditions, transport loads sometimes are not what they seem, not alls are balanced, equal or low, they can be the total opposite, we just settle down and drove to the conditions and that is what most people would do with there caravans."""""

-------------------------------

And THAT.. is why we mainly have Highway weight patrols.
Overloaded, and badly loaded.

It's up to the owners to supply the veh that WILL carry whatever load. Legally and safely.
Plus the DRIVER. to sign off that he is happy about his load. AS it is loaded.
B4 he starts the truck.

Responsibility's.
I did it for yrs. It's YOUR licence.. trouble being a lot of drivers won't front the boss.

You'd be surprised the limits we went to to load Harvesters and some off balance machinery.
To MAKE SURE they would meet the combinations of, the total. Axles. and tyre loadings,
if stopped.

Some of the loads. Transformers and Cat's for Power stations and refinery's
went 250 to 600ton.
Multi wheel combination trailers. both end steer.

Just having the load a foot too far one way or the other. Could stuff the tyre loadings in an instant.
Even whet gross was legal.

Heyyyyyyyyy.
Got ph call from eldest Granddaughter this arvo.

She was offered a job as supervisor in Bowen basin.
But knocked it back.

To become the third only "FEMALE Dragline operator" in the Basin.
(her old man's a drag Engineer, so will help her too)

Give her a clap everybody. THAT.. Is a big move for a female.

"I'm 30 next yr G'Dad. Can't hang about too much longer.
Kids can wait."

Driven them all my life basically, been pushing her for last 7.
Best machines in the world.

rockylizard · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
Well; I certainly don't think like a wimp who want a note from his mum saying it's all be OK before he has the courage to take an independent decision. Far too many people operate like that these days.

Gday...

I get ya drift Mike ... those authoritative blokes who will (if not now - it will be very soon) pull vehicles and their vans over for weighing will be very impressed with your 'courageous independent decision' regarding the weight of your van, vehicle and combination weight.

But at least they will know you are not a wimp. Be sure to let them know that as they put the rig over the scales.

I reckon it will take more than a "note from mum" to get an overweight illegal rig back on the road. hmm

Focus on the problem and the issue. Modern (this century) vans very rarely have a TARE rating that is accurate, let alone representative, of their actual weight.

Focus on the problem and the issue. It is the owner of the vehicle and van who is RESPONSIBLE for complying with all regulations, which include being within the rated capacities, relative to their vehicle and van. Under the law, ignorance is not an excuse/reason.

Focus on the problem and issue. It is generally accepted, from random 'educational' weighing exercises, that the majority of vehicles and vans are over their plated rated weights.

Many advocating correct plating of rated weights/masses also introduce the "insurance" issue ... however, if a vehicle and van cause an accident, given the fragility of caravans, I doubt there would be sufficient coherent mass to place over the scales to determine whether it was or wasn't overweight. That notwithstanding, it is incumbent on ALL motorists to ensure that the vehicles supposedly in their control is in a safe and legal condition.

Those authoritative blokes I referred to earlier will definitely be considerate and appreciate your stand that you profess to not being a wimp should they find your vehicle/van non-compliant.

cheers - John

TheHeaths · Guru

Mike,

it refers to your comments, on several threads, that suggest there are certain rules and regulations that you consider optional to adhere to. From his comment regarding his van, its weight and what he has decided, it appears Peter subscribes to that same train of thought!

That is what my comment meant.

Perhaps you can advise us which rules and regulations are optional, and which are non optional, so that we can all benefit.

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Anyone want to talk about generators now confuse biggrin

Craig1 · Guru

Help me Honda,help,help me Honda, help me Honda yeh, gotta get a yamaha out of my heart( apologies to Beach Boys)

Bryan · Guru

Dougwe wrote:
Anyone want to talk about generators now

biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin

Fringe Dweller · Senior Member

Did not have th jenny in . BUT.

I did say from the "van weights" post last week . From memory . Well from memory , I was pretty close.

As Had weighed my van & tug Empty when we traded up . Well . The figures are in.

Ball weight - 200kg . Unhooked . Car 2.220kg . Van 1.500kg - Near full load.

Hooked up Car - 2.420 . Van - 1.300 .

Unhooked , the van is 50kg Over . But , hooked up , I am 150kg light. With van plate weights.

Have not checked car plate yet , but as I said then . I am Legal for 2800kg towing.

So I Could put Genny in afterall , but where , gotta bolt th dunny on first.

Footprints · Senior Member

I take your point RonD however what I was trying to say was that a short wheelbase unit such as I have takes up almost the same amount in parking as a Landcruiser etc. and is so manoeuvrable it can be placed in much tighter parking spots, of course this type of rig would be considered by those who wish to travel or live in long term. Horses for courses however for those that require the larger van there is unfortunately not too many options if one wishes to travel without fear of fines or worse if involved in an accident. Regularly we read of over turned tugs and or vans however the greater stability afforded when using a more appropriate tug with a greater weight is immense. What ever combination is used I wish all safe travelling.

macka17 · Guru

Actually.
NOT all the mfg's were dodgy.

I bought 3 Roadstars, (Compass) over the yrs.

They were all fitted out to my (and one prev owners) spec''
Put over the weighbridge and then plated.

I believe Regency and Barry with Phoenix, also did same.

===========

Back in the day. Early '60's.

A LOT of us lived in caravans. Mix of financial necessity and convenience.
Plus that also meant at least you had a "home" you owned. (My main reason)
Probably 40% of us travelled for work.
The rest just lived on local parks and worked in those areas.

Not as many bludgers in those days. It was just starting to be fashionable.
(Bumming off the rest of the world)

Normally. You lived in a van. had it set up to your family req'ments.
Probably Overweight. Usually, 20\22ft.
with a lot of FIXED... pseudo "Mobile homes" among them.
Truck it in. Park it, and live in it. Fine. Never on road.

We couldn't load 'em up too much though . Mostly all were towed with Landrover 2ltrs ('50's early '60 models.)
Real powerhouses. Or Commer. Bedford 1 tonner vans. Some trucks.
My first was a 48\9? Set 1 Landie with 1500cc Side Valve under bonnet.
A REAL Powerhouse.. Funnily though. I never got much speed up. Chuckle (unless in deadman.)
(Truckies know what that is.
But we only had\ owned\ carried. what was necessary for van living.

Nowadays.
MFG's have conned people into "bigger. IS a lot better".
Weight?. What's that.

Veh MFg's are overrating their avail veh's to sell to unknowing.
unsuspecting new owners.

WHO.. Unfortunately. After living in HUGE brick boxes for last 40 odd yrs.
Can not get their brains round the fact that. all the crap they brought out of the homes. IS SUCH.
In a livable Caravan environment..

None suitable for anything more than putting in a Container if not wanting to unload it all.

You live in Caravans. Accept it.

If you all got rid of ALL but caravan environment requirements from what you actually have there now.
Most vans would be comfortably INSIDE weight limits.

Fuel bills would drop amazingly and a lot of big clumsy heavy vans would find themselves on the market.
being seen as what they are. Not Necessary.

There's always the few that "MUST HAVE", the biggest and the "best". (Dick,, Syndrome basically)
But normal people would soon realise.

You lot need to realise. Caravans and EX home belongings. Nostalia or not.
Do NOT, comfortably exist together. Legally.

You don't HAVE to read this. it's just an unfortunate... Fact of life mainly.

Ron-D · Guru

Iam no expert but with the new vans ,are they REALLY ! over weight,or is it a case of van manufacturers simply writing the tow weights down on the compliance plates so they can be towed by the majority of cars ,to sell more of there product .it seems the case when usually if you ask the manufacturer they can simply send you an updated compliance plate, reason being the load capacity is in the van already ,in other words are we demonising new van owners for being 100k over when really the van is quite safe ....

Possum3 · Guru

Ron, Most customers would walk straight out of the dealer's yard if they were ethical and said; "sorry but you cannot tow this caravan with that new (Prado, X Trail, Challenger) you just bought - you will have to go out and buy a F250 or Dodge Ram".

That's the reason all vans have understated Tares and ATM's. "SIMPLES".

rockylizard · Guru

Ron-D wrote:
I am no expert but with the new vans ,are they REALLY ! over weight,or is it a case of van manufacturers simply writing the tow weights down on the compliance plates so they can be towed by the majority of cars ,to sell more of there product .it seems the case when usually if you ask the manufacturer they can simply send you an updated compliance plate, reason being the load capacity is in the van already ,in other words are we demonising new van owners for being 100k over when really the van is quite safe ....

Gday...

The problem is not the "demonising" of van owners - although some on this, and other forums, castigate the owner for having the temerity to be in possession of a van that is not compliant to its plated capacities. Additionally, it matters not that "the van is quite safe" ... if it is non-compliant it is therefore illegally on the road.

As you say initially, van manufacturers are in a self-regulated industry, and it is they that determine the capacities that are stated on their compliance plates. Unfortunately, often the TARE weight (the starting point) is understated. This, it seems, is because the actual TARE of EVERY van is NOT established by putting EACH van over the scales JUST BEFORE it leaves the factory. It seems the TARE is established for a 'model of van' and that is carried forward to all of that 'model' irrespective of what 'extras' may or may not have been added at the factory to meet the customer's specification. Perhaps, there is some credence in your comment that the capacities are 'manipulated' to make the product more attractive to a wider client base.

It is further complicated when the dealer, upon receipt of said van, then installs other 'extras' to meet the customer's specifications. This can range from an extra spare wheel, jerry can holders etc.

Now - back to the "demonising" aspect. Unfortunately, It is the owner of the vehicle and van who is RESPONSIBLE for complying with all regulations, which include being within the rated capacities, relative to their vehicle and van. Under the law, ignorance is not an excuse/reason.

Therefore, if one wants to engender resolution to this unfortunate circumstance, then one's angst and pointed activity needs to be directed to the authorities who determine the rules and regulations that surround the caravan manufacturing industry rather than the owner/s of caravans - be they be ignorant, uninformed or not.

Whilst one may feel better venting into forums on this issue, it provides zilch to the resolution of the problem.

Cheers - John

-- Edited by rockylizard on Friday 26th of May 2017 09:06:10 AM

Ron-D · Guru

G'day....of course your right the laws the law,but obviously there's nothing unsafe about most of these vans it's a shame there not stamped correctly with there full weight carrying capacity that's all I was trying to convey.Its a sham !!!

RJB · Newbie

Hi,
Just been through the weight distribution exercise with my Holden Colorado and 18.6 Lotus trooper, appears I can only carry a payload of 200kg in the Colorado, (I weigh 110kg, the misses 80kg) there is our limit. Every van owner needs to go on line or buy the latest "Caravan Ontour" magazine, and do their own calculations. "Be prepared for a wake up call" Regards, RJB

macka17 · Guru

I did yrs ago in Territory.. Mobile crew.

They said "We'll pick rigs, vehicles that LOOK not right. Puffing up hills. any sway funny shapes etc"

Normally. We just weigh each wheel. and combine. If detrimentals anywhere we check further.

On the fixed bridges. we weigh the rig. as is. UNLESS it looks iffy.
Then we'll split them etc.
About 10 yrs ago that was.

Little tip.

They CAN do you for over tyre max weights too.
That's why I always run, and recommend. 10 ply Rating.
Stiffer\stronger walls. and extra weight capacity.

It all helps.

Desert Dweller · Guru

We've been travelling south for the past 3 days heading back to Melbourne from NSW. The annual migration north is in full swing judging by the amount of heavily laden large vans heading the opposite way to us. Many of them were loaded to the hilt, boats, outboards, folding boat trailers, bicycles, jerry cans, generators, huge tool boxes & the list goes on. Betcha' most of 'em were overweight by a considerable amount. Looking at a few that were pulled over for a rest stop the drivers & passengers were hugely overweight too. Have you ever heard a vehicle groan when two people get into it, I have?

Radar · Guru

I am starting to feel that there is on this subject that people are jealous of what other people do and have, maybe its time these people mind there own business with there observations of heavily laded caravans.

Time to enjoy out there, make the best of what you have.

macka17 · Guru

And that wouldn't be a comment from a person with a "slightly" over the mark weight in his rig.

Would it Radar.

Just remember. IF you have an accident, or pulled over by the law.

APART from anything else.

NEITHER of your insurances are in force. If you not within the law.

Think about it.

If you roll over somebody who stepped out, and killed, on injured them

NO damage to rig. Whole, and overweight.

Everything you own. Including your arse would belong to somebody else.

We've been playing with figures in vans and cars for donkeys to get it right

What makes people who don't or can't.

ANY different.

-------

RJB.

And then you have to push it most places.
10kg of diesel won't get you too far. what's the weight of your van?

Also remember. an empty tray ute. with 2.5 plus ton hanging off it's arse.
Ain't got much grip on the road. Specially in the wet.

They should ALL have around 1\2 ton min on tray for safety and grip on road.
B4 towing anything.

The next empty ute I see sliding over the line at the lights in wet. Won't be the first.
Ask Di. On her first drive in Melb.
Turned wheel to right. Whoops. Straight on.

What MOST should do. Is check chassis plate\stamping. on all van chassis,
BY LAW.
Compare it to Max axle weight allowed on plate. then start figuring things out.

THEY are what allow extra figures on plate or not.

THEN figure out the tug, if going that way.

NO engineer can UPdate a plate more than the chassis rating stamped on van.
Without a lot of figuring, and replacements of axles\springs\Susp, units to suit.

and That includes hubs\brakes and tyre sizes too.
Normally 10in hubs are 2.5ton max. 12in allow 3\3.5ish ton. Or used to.

-- Edited by macka17 on Friday 26th of May 2017 03:33:27 PM

-- Edited by macka17 on Friday 26th of May 2017 03:51:06 PM

Dougwe · Chief one feather

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