Van towing licence......

rockylizard · Guru

Van towing licence......

brickies · Guru

John has been done to death .

Hey Jim · Guru

brickies wrote:
John has been done to death .

Hi Brickies,

Maybe so. Let it live to save just one more life. John is right in what he has put forward. I can say this ,as more and more Baby Boomers hit the road.

In Sydney alone we have the M1,M2,M4, M5, M7 all with 3.6 metre lanes. Secondary roads with 3.1mtr roads then we have what passes for a road filled with parked cars that only one car can pass in a safe manner.

Put a new driver with a van and you have gridlock, by the time it takes to sort details out.

Trucks / vans are all at 2.4mts in width, leaves very little margin for error for new and not so new drivers.

I have big ear mirrors on my truck that line up very well with table top trucks.

I have observed many cars,vans and trucks cutting lanes all my life. It can happen in an instance.

Drive safely.

Jim

-- Edited by Hey Jim on Friday 9th of December 2016 05:02:24 PM

Desert Dweller · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
Because of so many accidents on the road involving caravans I think the drivers should be made to do a revision course in towing over a certain limit!!
Some people have never towed anything bigger than a trailer and then when they decide to hit the road go out and buy a 26ft (?) van or even bigger and then think it's simple to pass other vehicles or they go over the middle white line or close to it.
I see these things most every day when I am travelling and they expect me to move over!!
A previous thread on this topic was closed due to some unfortunate comments. However, this may give another point of view.
If anyone feels that comments should be forthcoming, let's keep it thoughtful and be mindful some may have other opinions.
http://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/news/2016/the-case-against-caravan-licensing-58345
cheers - John

A sore point with many ''traveling wrinklies'', but we totally agree with the above. The authorities will probably step in as the ''nomad population'' grows in the future.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Do you REALLY think it will cause less accidents ?? Licence doesn't stop stupid or tired !!

brickies · Guru

I have done all sort of driver training in big rigs and most is common scene some have some don't

macka17 · Guru

A lot of us have brickies.

and hopefully more responsible for it.

It's NOT a licence that;s needed. That's asking for gov't intervention with all their ridiculous rules.

Just,maybe a course with one of the caravan towing businesses starting up.

Or maybe Gov't could un-retire some truck drivers who are willing to give people
a one or two day lesson. IN their own rigs. for a cash incentive.
then have a certificate or just a stamp.etc on back of licence.

Like they put that little pink, redated strip on back of my old 10 yr licence
and charged a few hundred bucks for it. bloody shonky.
Good glue though. it ain't moved yet.

ANY and ALL information on how and what to do when. with bigger rigs.
HAS to be a bonus.

But I do reckon. that 5th wheelers. and large motorhomes. Converted and otherwise.
Should have a semi. or heavy bus licence.
They are NOT cars.

I reckon the MAX allowed on a car\trailer licence

Should be 5 to 5.5 ton.

-- Edited by macka17 on Friday 9th of December 2016 07:21:34 PM

TheHeaths · Guru

I don't necessarily agree with a towing licence for vans.

If, however, it is done, then I think towing training should be done as a part of the normal licence. A car licence would then cover up to GVM of 4.5 tonne NOT towing (as currently done), and GCM of 4.5 tonne towing (the new part). This lines the weights up to the current car licence limit.

There would then be separate training and licencing for Light Rigid, as currently done, and for towing above 4.5 tonne up to approved vehicle GCM, where that GCM exceeds 4.5 tonne, but is no higher than a GCM of 8 tonne (Vehicle GVM of 4.5 tonne, and common maximum van ATM of 3.5 tonne). Above that it may be necessary to introduce a new Heavy Combination for towing. Just a thought.

The issue I see is if anything is brought in retrospectively (as it should if we are going to be fair about it), then the initial rush on training could literally see licencing taking several years before everyone who currently tows have the required upgrade. That would be hell to police, and would not please those if there were restrictions on towing until the upgrade was done.

Anyway, as I say, I am still to be convinced a towing licence will make a great deal of difference to the accident rate for caravans. Be an interesting discussion.

Bushpie · Guru

I have driven and towed most things.......but not for a while......so we both will do a course. However I do not think it should be compulsory......as common sense should prevail and all those with some will not just buy a van an get out there.

Even if we do get regulated.......or over regulated as we already are it will not make one iota of differance to the number of accidents that are happening now. They will still occur.

A little patience and courtesy from all drivers would go a long way to slow the number of accidents that we are seeing........but there is an element of those two qualities that are missing from the make up of some drivers.....wether they drive a car, motorbike,bus, truck or a wrinkly towing a caravan.

The onus is on the driver whatever they are driving to drive accordingly to the conditions and your own capabilities.......to those that dont .......its about time you grew up and shared the road with everyone.

Tony Bev · Guru

In my opinion, so I could therefore be wrong

I do not believe that there is a straightforward answer to this question

Some drivers, (I hope that I am one), are responsible drivers
We would probably gain nothing by going on a towing course

Some drivers (not all), who first start towing a caravan, are inexperienced, and would probably benefit from a towing course
Perhaps it would be beneficial for some of the main Insurers, to offer a free towing course, as less claims, should mean more profit for them

Looking at this question another way
When I am travelling, although I have fully comp insurance, it will be an inconvenience to have an accident, away from my home base
I therefore drive to what I believe to be the conditions, of the different types of roads, I travel along

Fringe Dweller · Senior Member

I am putting my property on the market . Strange topic come up . Honest . AND Nothing to do with vans.

The agent from Coffs , lives near Coffs & has a pilots licence . But said , if he were to do a car licence test he would fail.

Not the practical , but the theory . I replied . EVERY time I go to renew my licence or rego . I grab a drivers handbook.

And for me , that is Two books , car & Heavy vehicle .

Yes . I thought I was a good driver . Having done a basic Navy drivers course . Even before I got a civvy car licence.

Seven yrs into my Semi driving career . I scored the Best job ever . The firm put us through a Defensive Drivers course.

Three months after you did the defensive , they put us through an Advanced Driver training course . All up , we were a

month off work & they paid us . They reckoned they recouped that money in 11months . Because of our better driving

practices.

If I were to do a licence test Right now . I KNOW I Would pass . Theory & Practical.

I believe , it is coming . That we Will have to be Accredited . In one form or another.

I think it will be a good thing too . Then no one can say "what would you know , you ain't got a licence" and the like.

If I can make my stage debut at 68.

If I can commit to learn Bass Guitar at 68. Yep , it's all about th bass.

No trouble getting a wobbly licence.

rockylizard · Guru

TheHeaths wrote:
SNIP~~~ Anyway, as I say, I am still to be convinced a towing licence will make a great deal of difference to the accident rate for caravans. Be an interesting discussion.

Gday...

I provide this from the article within the link originally posted -

Van Licence 01.JPG

Van Licence 02.JPG

The only unfortunate aspect of the above, is that the number of 'at-fault claims' to insurance companies is not quoted.

So a 1% (or zero) rise of CLAIMS, lets surmise for discussion 150,000 claims against all companies, would be a significant number - if it were that many.

There are over half a million registered caravanning and camping products in Australia with campervan and caravan registrations reaching a combined total of 502,025 according to figures released by CRVA. Caravans continue to represent 89% of total registrations with campervans totalling 11%.

However, the figures below are from CIL for the year 2015 -

Van Licence 03a.JPG

I have no idea how many caravans are covered by CIL, but if, for discussion, it were 10% of ALL caravans on the road then that is a possible 50,000 policies.

34% of claims above were for collision with a stationary object or accidental damage = 4,760 of 14,000 claims.

If 135 claims for the year were for rollover accidents, that would be 0.27% of total (assumed number of) policy holders had a rollover.

I have not delved into the available statistics for each other category of vehicles. However, I offer the following for interest -

It will come as little surprise to most Australian motorists that the number of drivers on our roads today is significantly higher than just five years ago. There are currently more than 15.5 million drivers in Australia.

18.7% of Australian motorists are reported to having been involved in at least one accident while driving in the previous five years. Thats 3 million motorists involved in accidents from minor bingles to more serious crashes over the last five years.

So, on the surface of it all, and assuming caravan drivers are included in the 18.7% of drivers involved in at one accident in a five year period, it would assume, from the limited data, that caravans - and their drivers - are perhaps not the blight on our roads as suggested.

It is further quite interesting that the main source of lament concerning the abilities of caravan drivers seems to stem from other caravan drivers - particularly those on forums.

Cheers - John

The Belmont Bear · Guru

As I previously stated when this topic came up last week I am relatively inexperienced when it comes to towing a 21' van and we are doing the Tow-ed course in the new year but that was totally our own choice. I could be way off the mark here but I don't believe that licensing is suddenly going to make everyone more competent on the road. A drivers behaviour regardless of the vehicle that they are operating has just as big a role to play as inexperience. By the way there is nothing in John's numbers that suggests inexperience caused these accidents (common sense would suggest that some were). There is a number quoted saying that the average age of those involved in claims was 63 should the bureaucrats now be making a law that all people over 62 need to be licensed for towing and then tested every year regardless of their level of experience ?

If there is to be a licence shouldn't the same testing then apply to everyone of any age who is towing, carrying things on the roof or altering a vehicles characteristics in anyway by loading - is that where we want to go with this ? Be careful what you wish for bureaucrats are not renowned for their common sense approach to anything..and it will cost you money.

dishlicker · Senior Member

Hi Rockylizard has a valid point. But wouldn't go as far as a licence as per say. I think the all Caravan dealers have a duty of care to the purchaser and therefore should (by law) supply the person buying the opportunity to take an advance driving towing course. Then they are able to get the experience before towing begins in full. Just a thought cheers.

macka17 · Guru

It's nothing to do with "licencing"

It's a bit of "instruction" from experienced people as to what to do. NOT do.

And when.
How to pull out and straighten up BEFORE trying to go past. After you've cleared the distances
You'd be surprised how many "car" drivers with vans on pull out at last minute and blast straight past with van still wondering what's going on.
Try that with a multi sometime....
And the next one that cuts you off without even realising.
Won't be the first.

It's surprising how much is different when you first start out.

Some EXPERIENCE,, Passed on b4 you start. is worth a zillion....

That's what it's all about.
Even just how far to go past the corner
4 Starting to turn the wheel, the wheel makes a difference.
and knowing to get out from the curb a bit b4 you commit.

There are a lot of little things people would be more comfortable knowing B4 they start.

Hence the reason those "do not overtake turning vehicles" are a must.
Even if only for YOUR insurance. When that dick comes up the inside.
He won't be the first either.

My Army licence was class for a week. Workshops for week, (to know which does what in the vehicle.
Then practice on enclosed area with cones.

Then on road. With your Corporal. and god help you if you crunched a cog in the box.
OR used the clutch apart from start\stop.
Rev's only. Crash boxes. Normally Austin 1 tonners

The other vehicles came later.
Diamont T's were the best. 7 cog, gate box. plus splitter.
Night in cookhouse on spuds for every cog you crunched.
You soon learned.

The only thing about the D.T's was on tank hauling.
11.5 ton of those 56lb cast blocks hand loaded in tray first.
Then out again at end of trip.
Kept you fit with good muscles.

Grey fox · Veteran Member

Common sense and patience Thais all it takes but not to many have any of that ,, but then go tell Malcom he will f------- it up anyway.

Footprints · Senior Member

I reckon Macka is spot on. Licensing will only apply to the rules of the road and restrictions and limitations just as it is for Heavy vehicle licences currently. Instruction of all scenarios that towing involves is what is required. Instruction provides knowledge of the many variables encountered when towing vans. It is my understanding that in the UK if one wishes to tow larger than a box trailer such as a horse float they must undertake instruction of several lessons but I don't know if the same applies for towing caravans in that country. Cheers

montie · Guru

macka17 wrote:

I reckon the MAX allowed on a car\trailer licence
Should be 5 to 5.5 ton.

-- Edited by macka17 on Friday 9th of December 2016 07:21:34 PM

Anything over 4.5 tonnes with a motorhome requires a licence upgrade.

Monty

montie · Guru

dishlicker wrote:
Hi Rockylizard has a valid point. But wouldn't go as far as a licence as per say. I think the all Caravan dealers have a duty of care to the purchaser and therefore should (by law) supply the person buying the opportunity to take an advance driving towing course. Then they are able to get the experience before towing begins in full. Just a thought cheers.

We tried that......offered a free towing course with every van sold.

Only 20% of the buyers took up the offer and turned up for the course.

Waste of time unless there is a regulation that requires them to do so.

Why do dealers have a duty of care for somebody elses stupidity?

Monty

CC Bear · Senior Member

Agree monty you can buy anything you want and no one offers any courses they all presume you know how to use it. I have bought cars and not been asked for a license, chainsaws and never asked if I knew how to use it.

Might be time for all those here to put there knowledge onto a list for those less experienced drivers. I for one would be looking at it and hoping to learn. In the mean time I will use my common sense, gut feeling and drive to the condition that I find.

Thank you to everyone who has offered good advise and help me since becoming a member.

Have a great Christmas, cheers.

TheHeaths · Guru

I am with you on this Monty.

"Duty of Care" is what those we deal with have to us when we are unwilling to take the responsibility for our actions.

To me it is simply a way to blame someone else for our stupidity, rashness, poor decision making, whatever.

The duty of care rests with us to ensure that we can meet the terms required of the decisions we take.

Mutley · Senior Member

I just went to dispose of a trailer load of green waste from our garden at our local council's periodic free Sunday dump; there were lots of people of all ages there towing/backing trailers of all sizes. Any reasonable person who thinks that we don't need a towing licence would soon change their mind after watching the antics of many of the people down there, and I do mean many of them, not just a few!

The Belmont Bear · Guru

I totally agree with Monty and the Heaths on this - stop looking for someone else to take responsibility for your own actions. Here is a novel idea if you are inexperienced at towing a van take personal responsibility for gaining that competence i.e. do a training course or whatever it takes to learn. if you are someone who disregards the road rules or shows contempt for other road users take responsibility for your personal behaviour and change it. This post could go on forever discussing the pros and cons of towing licenses or training courses and we would be just as far from consensus as we were when it first began all people can do at the moment is make sure that they themselves follow the existing rules and regulations.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Yep . Ten minutes working it out . When to turn when rear tyre is to go around something . Coles car park at night etc goes along way ..

Radar · Guru

It is further quite interesting that the main source of lament concerning the abilities of caravan drivers seems to stem from other caravan drivers - particularly those on forums.
Cheers - John

I do hold a licence to drive/operate most trucks/machines and have done so for 40 plus years (it now for the most getting very dusty from lack of use) done though my employment lots of training courses, some to help make me a better road user, then some to help make me better operator of the equipment that I am driving.

My point is I give a lot of people a lot of laughs and s******s at caravan parks when I get try to park the caravan but at home reversing into the driveway though a gate first time everytime, well almost everytime,

Why stop at caravan/trailer

Why not for horse riding they get ridden along a road.

Owning dogs, they bite, been known to maul people and run out in front of traffic

Could have one for cats, they will scratch you to dearth, run in front of your car.

The list is endless.

For the most John I agree with you. Your last line saids it all.

macka17 · Guru

Radar.

Very FEW people get on a horse without some instruction.
Even Mounting one is an art.
Landing when bucked off is another one (how to land from 10 ft up)
I know. It HURTS
And try a canter without learning the "rise"
You'll soon have a sore "pair" underneath you.

Learning to reverse. ANY railer.

The best info I can give anybody learning and otherwise.
To reverse any trailer.

Is draw forward till car and trlr are in line (straight)
Then go a bit further.
Stick in rev. put steering HAND on BOTTOM of wheel.
Look out mirrors and remember to turn the WHEEL
with that hand.

the way you want the REAR
of trailer to go....
Hand left rear left. Hand right. etc.

Simplest, easiest way to learn and do.
Then try to estimate when rear turned far enough.
iE stop turning b4 it gets there.
Just like a boat.

AND ALWAYS use mirrors. unless it alongside of you

Shop centre bays is another good one to teach trlr alignment.

When I came out of army. One job was driving semi's for BRS
British Road Services.

First month was "shunting" and loading trlrs in shunting yards.

Hundreds of mainly 20ft trays (in those days '63 ish) In and out of numbered bays.
Tray width 8ft 2 in. Bays 9 ft. same as loading docks 9ft wide.

You soon learn.

Best semi training I ever had. Could park any specified wheel on a coin.
Anywhere.
Also did some work with 4 wh dog trailers too.
2 wheels front. 2 wheels rear. with swivel drawbar at front.
Try backing that down a skinny lane sometime.

It's not the piece of paper mainly.
More the education and knowledge as to HOW TO do things.

People that knock back the chances of learning something new, or better.
are normally the ones that usually NEED to learn it.

I'll never be too old to learn something new, or better.

Silver Anchor · Member

As a Truck driver of 30+ years towing 4 trailers at up to 160 ton yes there should be a towing licence. My caravan is totally different to anything Ive done in a truck so we all should do it