Are top tow tugs too light?

rockylizard · Guru

Are top tow tugs too light?

marto1944 · Senior Member

yep always had my doubts about the new hype I thought I remembered that the tug always had to be as heavy as the trailer i.e. you could not tow anything heavier than the tug where did that rule go ?

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Another opinion/advice -

http://caravanbuyersguide.com.au/tow-vehicle-caravan-weight/

I snipped this from the following site -

Towing Weight.JPG

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/towing.html

Cheers - John

Explorer · Guru

marto1944 wrote:
yep always had my doubts about the new hype I thought I remembered that the tug always had to be as heavy as the trailer i.e. you could not tow anything heavier than the tug where did that rule go ?

Used to be different rules for each state. Some had that the tow vehicles had to be equal weight to the trailer some had 1.5 times the weight of the trailer & others had something in between. Then to standardise they bought in that magical formula " Manufacturers Specifications".

Towing my boat was totally illegal in QLD but very legal in NSW. then came in "Manufacturers Specifications " & it wasn't legal anywhere??? That was with a Ford Courier (M. S. 1000kg) could have bought the same vehicle with a Mazda badge & been legal. (M.S. 1500kg). Three weeks after upgrading to a Range Rover got put over the sccales.

Mike.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

A much bigger problem is the distance of the hitch behind the axle when towing pig trailers.

Cheers,
Peter

rockylizard · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
A much bigger problem is the distance of the hitch behind the axle when towing pig trailers.

Cheers,
Peter

Gday...

...addressed in the first link -

Towing Weight 01.JPG

Cheers - John

macka17 · Guru

ANY Tug that physically weighs LESS than it tow. is dangerous.
No matter what the paper on vehicle says.
Fine in straight line, But ANYTHING happens untoward. and trailer can control you.

I towed larger rigs. for 50 plus yrs. Including Heavy Haulage/Multi's.
always tried to keep trailer around 1\2 ton LESS than tug or as near as.

Overhang of tray or rear of vehicle affects it.
as does too Light a drawbar weight. or too much.

Longer trailer drawbar makes easier to reverse.

Also too light a weight on tow ball.
Can make them tail heavy (swingers)

Some rigs have big vans and don't change ball from 2.5 ton to 3.5 ton.
Hitch and towbar the same.
There are differing weight towbars and hitches around.

Check the plate on hitch. and number (2.5/3.5t) stamped on top of ball.

Wrong hitch/ball. NO Insurance cover and illegal on road with Highways..

Rear set suspension on trailer make a a much safer, more controllable tow than central axles too.

ALL people starting out towing larger than 6x4 should have endorsement on licence.
and a compulsory day in classroom showing
what.when.where. and how to set up. check and adjust such things
We'd all be safer on the roads then.

Specially those that crawl along at 80/85/90 on a 100/110 freeway or highway.
They cause more accidents.

Find alternative roads. there's normally parallel roads going to same destinations at lower speeds.

marto1944 · Senior Member

macka17

I certainly like your comments but i do take objection to you speeds i.e. crawling at 90k on a freeway I feel comfortable and I am sure others doing the same do as well I do my utmost to stay out of the way of others that want to go faster and get to their destination a few minutes quicker apart from the fact that I get resonable fuel economy I also carry a CB which I would use if I felt I was creating a problem with a big rig I always stay alert and keep a good eye on my surroundings and in no way set out to impede any other users I have a great deal of respect for most truckies and try my best to be a considerate driver I have seen some people that are not so considerate but please dont label everyone with the same tag

peter

macka17 · Guru

OK Peter.
80/85 then Truckies have schedules to keep and rises to climb.
Slow cars make them use a lot more fuel, and extend their schedules.
I know I did it with big heavy rigs. Takes us a coupla miles to wind up to road speeds in places.

Also. A lot drive on speedo. which can be up to 8km's under reading.
(90 minus say 6 is ???
80 minus same is???. Think about it sometime....

Everybody else trying to do traffic flow of 100/110.
You ain't very popular. Specially with a couple of you in convoy.

Thet's the problem.
Road limits is a fine art. (read up about it sometime on Highways net.)
they are set on specific parts/sections of specific roads to keep traffic flow .. Flowing.. safely
depending on area. Road conditions. ambient weather. surface of road and type of traffic generally using it.
and they check regularly (sometimes they get it wrong. but there's a lot of roads)

Seriously. Look it up sometime in Highways,Gov't Bulletins. It's in there.
I did probably 15 yrs ago.

It's the people that disrupt the flow that cause problems, knowingly or not.

If you look at Maps of Aust. Nearly EVERY primary roadway. North/south Not so much E/W.
have smaller non primary roads connecting t'ween each other. covering same point to point places.

Leave the main roads alone. Go on secondary.
They MAY.. take a little longer. but are normally much more scenic. You can stop and start to suit. WHEN you want to.
And the main traffic flows aren't disrupted.

It's not so bad at 90 if Multi lane. But a lot of our roads outside metro are primarily long sections of single lane with overtaking sections , but they not too close together.

Stop sometime at start of Overtaking section in caravan season. Anywhere on main drags.(for a coffee)
And just notice the build up of cars and trucks going into that section. behind nearly every caravan or group of.

I've driven commercially and privately with vans, Trucks and cars. All over Australia for the 43 yrs I've been here.

Caravans ARE the primary problem and holdup to traffic flows everywhere. (and I'm one of them)
Personally I have always had a rig that will do road speed and more. Comfortably.
and travel WITH traffic. Mostly.

Last rig 6.3 ton combined 6.5mtr van+ Patrol/Tinny.
This one D-Max with 18ft Coromal Tandem.

-- Edited by macka17 on Wednesday 1st of June 2016 02:27:28 PM

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

So a semi is equal to weight of its load ? Your right about trailers axles and load . But can't compare to heavy trucks or Semi's ., 80 to 90 kph is fine towing a van . Out west there's often side winds that'll blow you off the road if your not Careful . Plus some roads have atrocious ripples even on main sealed roads . I use my CB and drop back to let the big fella's pass . The communication over the Nullabor between trickiest etc is fantastic . Warn you when turning off . Ask if you want to pass etc ?? Safe as can be !!

Vince · Senior Member

Yeah well I must be one of the hated ones too, I travel with the van connected on open highways around 85 to 90.

I do this for my own comfort and safety as well as not having to flog the tug and raise the fuel economy.

I totally understand heavy transport have a job to do and within budgets but it's all about sharing the same road as well.

As for the topic I wouldn't tow a van more than 1.5 times the tug unladen weight.

Hey Jim · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
http://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/news/2015/top-tow-tugs-too-light-53180
Cheers - John

Oh John,

Some of the boys a will be out looking for you with there double barrelled fingers. Keep safe and keep your head down. biggrin biggrin biggrin

Im off to the cave to relocate the jack to under the Bed. It weigh's with base plate = 5.3kg closer to the tamdum balance.

Cheers Jim

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Yes the Prado is NO Landcruiser!! As much as all the manufacturers try to convince us . Plus the chassis type duel cab or single for that matter is hardly stronger than a station wagon of same brand . Box is way stronger than chassis rails alone . Price and economy have come into it now ! I guess the decision is to buy second hand Crusier or new lighter tug ? For this reason I went motorhome . Solved .

Desert Dweller · Senior Member

Another vote for driving at 90kph on major roads & 80-85kph on secondary roads with not much traffic. That's not being a traffic hazard, just a responsible driver. On freeways we stay in the left lane &at overtaking lanes move to the left lane so that others can pass even to the point of slowing down a little to let them all through. No problem & common sense. Our 2015 4x4 ute is rated to tow 2.8T, our van weighs 1.6T fully loaded. No way would it tow 2.8T safely & with minimal effort. Too many overloaded, unsafe rigs on the road. Great that the police are beginning to monitor the situation. ''COME DOWN HARD ON 'EM MR PLOD''!

Radar · Guru

Macka you wrote

ALL people starting out towing larger than 6x4 should have endorsement on licence.
and a compulsory day in classroom showing
what.when.where. and how to set up. check and adjust such things
We'd all be safer on the roads then.
My reply to your comment
"There is enough reading matter out there to sink a ship by" and we don't need more red tape.
___________________
Specially those that crawl along at 80/85/90 on a 100/110 freeway or highway.
They cause more accidents.

Find alternative roads. there's normally parallel roads going to same destinations at lower speeds.
My reply to your comment
Coming from someone else who transport duties lasted 43 years of driving big ones and pre that another 6 years of driving light commercial vehile doing deliveries and at times making a complete and utter fool trying to hard to make a living, to you I say go jump in the lake.
Commercial vehicles not have any extra rights of travel, they are not on a time frame and must share the roads with who every is using them.
It has been proven by the industry itself that a transport driven at or near to 95 ks a hour over a day is not that far behind a truck drven at 100ks, saving in fuel is very noticeable, tyre wear is down, driver is more refreshed at the end of day, one of the biggest is reaction time to avoid an accident because of the lower speed, stopping distant are shorter.

And as for CB's, the colourful language spoils my listening to Slim, Troy, Willo and Sarah while I travel along at my GPS speedo 90ks or slower depending on the road condition towing my caravan and at times sharing and enjoying the scenery with my wife while I am driving along, something I didn't have time to do when I was working.

Enjoy your day.

-- Edited by Radar on Wednesday 1st of June 2016 04:21:56 PM

Bryan · Guru

I don't know if I understand this correctly but the way I read it a Toyota Landcruiser 200 with a GVM of 3300kg is to light to tow a 3500kg van which its rated for. I'm confused. confuse

I've always wondered how manufacturers calculate maximum towing weight. The Landrover Defender 90 with a GVM somewhere around 2700kgs and a pissy 2.1 litre motor rated in the top 10 tugs by Caravan magazine and able to tow 3500kgs.

-- Edited by Bryan on Wednesday 1st of June 2016 04:28:11 PM

Radar · Guru

Desert Dweller wrote:
Another vote for driving at 90kph on major roads & 80-85kph on secondary roads with not much traffic. That's not being a traffic hazard, just a responsible driver. On freeways we stay in the left lane &at overtaking lanes move to the left lane so that others can pass even to the point of slowing down a little to let them all through. No problem & common sense. Our 2015 4x4 ute is rated to tow 2.8T, our van weighs 1.6T fully loaded. No way would it tow 2.8T safely & with minimal effort. Too many overloaded, unsafe rigs on the road. Great that the police are beginning to monitor the situation. ''COME DOWN HARD ON 'EM MR PLOD''!

Desert Dweller, I agree with you.

My tow vehicle is rated to tow 3000kgs and at present my caravan comes in at 1900kgs, so easy to work with.

Our ute will tow 3000kgs with its 170 kw rating and torque of 550nm, ute weighbridged at 2.8 loaded to go. All the gear, fueled and 2 people. Awesome

When I do replace the caravan with a bigger one I hoping to keep the weight at or near 2.5 tonnes, just to be sure.

Vince · Senior Member

Bryan wrote:
I don't know if I understand this correctly but the way I read it a Toyota Landcruiser 200 with a GVM of 3300kg is to light to tow a 3500kg van which its rated for. I'm confused.

-- Edited by Bryan on Wednesday 1st of June 2016 04:28:11 PM

Bryan

By my calculation using the RMS NSW site:-

A 200 cruiser can tow a trailer 1.5 times it's unladen weight (Tare)

So that would be Tare of 2620Kg x 1.5 = 3930Kg

That's how I read it

Cheers

Vince

dieseltojo · Senior Member

I reckon its more to do with the better braking of today's electric brakes than the emphasis on weight of the tug.
I am old fashioned and prefer the tow vehicle to be heavier.
A mate had a problem with his truck brakes once and we were glad he was in a manual Toyota with good engine braking.With the old over run brakes, it was a death trap for the vehicle to be too small.

macka17 · Guru

OOOO.
We are bitey ain't we.

If more people read some or more of the literature out there. it would be a safer world.

A lot do get in front of a caravan. Some. really big ones. with NO experience.

They the ones need educating.

And as I said. speeds of 80/85 on single lane busy. major highways Do/can cause bad blood. with car and truck drivers.
It's well documented.
Multi lanes no problem.
-------------
"Coming from someone else who transport duties lasted 43 years of driving big ones and pre that another 6 years of driving light commercial vehile doing deliveries and at times making a complete and utter fool trying to hard to make a living, to you I say go jump in the lake.
--
Can't. I'd get wet and cold.....

------------------------

Commercial vehicles not have any extra rights of travel,

"THEY ARE NOT ON A TIMEFRAME...

..and must share the roads with who every is using them.
-------------
All I can say there is You ain't done much distance hauling.

Kiwi.
I did some car transport Melb to Perth and beyond in the'70's. 4 legger and drag.

Head wind either way would put $400 on fuel bill. and in those days that was a lot of bread.
We didn't get paid extra for it. just wore it. Bloody bulldust slowed you down too when it started moving.

If more people were educated about roads and towing we'd all be better.

Licences aren't given. They have to be earned. and training SHould be done occasionally.
I go to a HD advanced instructor every 10 yrs or so and get opinion of my failts. we all have them.
This gives you a chance to restrain them.

Anyway. footy starting shortly.
Better go and get the whiskey and lollies out hey.

Oh. Every day is an enjoyable one too.

QUEENSLAND... The stirrers chuckle.

Snail · Senior Member

My rule of thumb is found on the compliance plate. Gross Combination Mass-Gross Vehicle Mass=Tow weight.

For example

GCM GVM Tow weight

Land Cruiser 200GXL 6800kg 3300kg 3500kg

Ford Ranger 6000kg 3200kg 2800kg

macka17 · Guru

Ah well.
2 points will do.
But hey.

They've got a team this yr.

Might finally be a competition after ten yrs or so.

Go the blues. They did well. and not much of the spite they tended to show near end ot the games..

Good on 'em. From a Queenslander.
low points but a bloody hard, pretty even game, they just need to build up their attack a bit..

Even if Laurie Daley is whinging and asking for alternate ref's for next game.
I'd leave 'em where they are if I was him. They were very fair to both sides.

Bass · Senior Member

I have a cupla million k's under my belt in HC / MC doing long distance, last few years in a high sided quad around Melb and east vic. My 200 series can tow our 3t van at legal speed but I'm happy plodding along at 90 /95 KPH and if others don't like it tough. when I finish with this chemo thingy we hit the road and be buggard if I'm am going to drive at 110 kph because joe / joeanne blow is running late.

Onedodger · Guru

May I remind everyone that the speed limit is not a target but a maximum that should not be exceeded.

Travelling below this limit is acceptable by law.

I like many others drive to suit road conditions and the vehicles torque band hence 95 Kph, If road conditions permit.

I find that with the use of a UHF one can successfully be easily overtaken by the transport operator.

As for having a special licence to tow a van, if this was on then I am sure that there would be many rip off's for the driver.

My suggestion would be simply, if one has done a tow-ed course then insurance should be reduced by a small percentage thus being an incentive to learn how to tow safely.

-- Edited by Onedodger on Thursday 2nd of June 2016 02:47:15 PM

Bryan · Guru

Vince wrote:
Bryan wrote:
I don't know if I understand this correctly but the way I read it a Toyota Landcruiser 200 with a GVM of 3300kg is to light to tow a 3500kg van which its rated for. I'm confused.

-- Edited by Bryan on Wednesday 1st of June 2016 04:28:11 PM
Bryan
By my calculation using the RMS NSW site:-
A 200 cruiser can tow a trailer 1.5 times it's unladen weight (Tare)
So that would be Tare of 2620Kg x 1.5 = 3930Kg
That's how I read it
Cheers
Vince

According to the article its the other way, a Landcruiser can tow to a max of 2600 kg. I better start saving for a Ford F250 or similar if I upgrade my van smile

Radar · Guru

Bass wrote:
I have a cupla million k's under my belt in HC / MC doing long distance, last few years in a high sided quad around Melb and east vic. My 200 series can tow our 3t van at legal speed but I'm happy plodding along at 90 /95 KPH and if others don't like it tough. when I finish with this chemo thingy we hit the road and be buggard if I'm am going to drive at 110 kph because joe / joeanne blow is running late.

Another one I agree with, sharing is the game.

macka17 · Guru

Radar.

90+ is usually alright. and non busy roads it don't matter either.

It's those at 80ish "ON BUSY SINGLE LANE HIGHWAYS." as I said.

If Busy road traffic flow is 100ish and you plod along at 80ish in a one lane traffic flow..
That's what I said basically.

If a cop was driving along any, busy traffic single lane road with them doing 100/110,
and you plod along at 80/85.

They can and have. Booked people for obstructing traffic.

I did say traffic flow.
you travel with them not a problem, at whatever speed.(IE the Liechardt Northern end).
The flow is normally to conditions in that area. weather. Surface etc.

This conversation has been going on for decades. neither will win but both sides can give opinions

My opinion for safety mainly.
Is travel with traffic flow on single highways.
get onto alternate roads. if for some reason you don't want to, Or not capable.
For the safety of all.

And I still reckon ALL starters in towing should go through at least one days instruction and advice on how to in differing conditions PLUS reversing...

From what we see every day on the roads. A lot that ARE doing it already.
Should also get some advice...

Ron-D · Guru

I tow my Van at about 90 kph ,if any one wants to overtakethey're not breaking the speed limit, a truck will always want to go around a caravan it's in there DNA , if the vans siting on 100 kph that makes his job a lot harder. I have a heavy rigid drivers license and respect truckies , drive at a speed they can overtake with ease,throttle back when there overtaking and blink your indicators to let them know when there trailer clears your vehicle .

Radar · Guru

macka17 wrote:
Radar.

90+ is usually alright. and non busy roads it don't matter either.

It's those at 80ish "ON BUSY SINGLE LANE HIGHWAYS." as I said.
----------------
You really mean a truck can do 100kph when it wants and then when it slow down going up a rise thats Ok for them to slow traffic up but a caravan cruising along at 90ks he becomes a pain in your butt. Go on with you.
-----------------
If Busy road traffic flow is 100ish and you plod along at 80ish in a one lane traffic flow..
That's what I said basically.

If a cop was driving along any, busy traffic single lane road with them doing 100/110,
and you plod along at 80/85.
They can and have. Booked people for this
________________
I doubt this would happen, it is easier to write up a truck driver for something.
_____________

My opinion for safety mainly.
Is travel with traffic flow on single highways.
get onto alternate roads. if for some reason you don't want to, Or not capable.
For the safety of all.

And I still reckon ALL starters in towing should go through at least one days instruction and advice on how to in differing conditions PLUS reversing...

___________
As for reversing I have less trouble backing a extended tri axle semi trailer into a building site, then I do with my single axle caravan.
_____________
From what we see every day on the roads. A lot that ARE doing it already.
Should also get some advice...
_______________
I don't like to judge other people on the road, When I see someone make a mistake, I just hope it is there mistake for the day. I don't know how many mistakes I make in a day in people eyes.
_____________

I found before I retired it was easier to overtake another motorist in general if it was doing 80/90 an hour then if it was doing 95 or worse just under 100ks with our truck. speed limited to 100ks, they would be painful to get passed. Passing distant becomes a long way extended by your lenght.

I am enjoying my retirement and it was the best thing that I have done leaving the industry when I did, the timing was good, I try not to think like a truck driver any more, I would rather stop boil the billy look at the vista, drink my coffee then concern myself with what others are doing, just work with what you have and can do, intellectual, physically or mentally.

-- Edited by Radar on Thursday 2nd of June 2016 08:42:39 PM

Hey Jim · Guru

Hi all,

What's the Rush. I changed over vehicles at the end of 2012 with thinking forward all the time. Three years came around in a blink of an eye. We stretched ourselves to the max to get our GX TTD Cruiser.

We moved into a van that our tow truck would tow safe and without stressing the engine and drive train. All up we will have a fully loaded van of around 2600kg. With 650 ponies up front.

We could cruise all day at 100kmph if I wanted. I don't want to. 90-95km would suit me fine.We want to be able to pull up ASAP if safe to do so. Our van is fitted with a review van camera monitor. (Plus we have the extentable mirrors).Which will allow me to do so, without endangering following traffic if can view them coming.I have always moved over onto the shoulder to give all following as much clear view ahead. I have allways let the truckies go and always flash them to second they are clear to return to the left. They always thank me with there blinkers.

Plain old manners, just sharing the road together. I have towed trailers all my driving life. It just comes down to common sense out there.

Stay safe and drive to the conditions.

Hey Jim & Lambie