Number Plate Height Limit

migra · Senior Member

Number Plate Height Limit

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

I had been wondering about this issue for some time now Migra. However, I had not heard or seen any current progress result.

This is the link you mention in your post -

http://www.mynrma.com.au/get-involved/advocacy/news/nrma-gets-result-on-numberplate-gate.htm

Unfortunately, it is dated 23 June 2015 ... and appears to be the same 'information' that was promulgated at that time. confuse

I am not able to see anything on that site that shows a 'current update' or anything that advises of recent progress or success in prosecuting this issue.

I note the reference to 423 motorists being booked was from Feb 2014 (when the regulation was updated) to June 2015. cry There is no indication how many, if any, have been booked since this issue was raised to and by NRMA last June.

I couldn't see in that article any mention that "at least 10 other brands have been reported".

Interestingly, the manufacturer mentioned in this issue (Crusader Caravans) who offered "free kits" to remedy the problem, have gone out of business -

http://www.mynrma.com.au/get-involved/advocacy/news/crusader-caravans-sale-deadline-looms.htm

And further - http://www.mynrma.com.au/get-involved/advocacy/news/is-it-time-to-simplify-caravan-numberplate-law.htm

What a muddy mess that seems to not have progressed very far, if at all. cry

Cheers - John

Bass · Senior Member

I guess the law is the law, but it is a bit disappointing when the police don't use a bit of common sense. i'm willing to bet that they haven't endeared themselves to the nomads they booked cause their plates (while quite visible) are 200mm to high. I have a crusader and just went out and measured mine. BUGGER !!!!!!! 1600mm. I'll pay the fine I guess but it will come out of the funds we spend in outback towns.

Dougwe · Chief one feather

It's not just the fine Warren, you lose points as well, 3, I have been told.

I spoke to the police late last year and they told after a discussion with a traffic cop as well that they have much better things to do than book people with a slightly high fitted number plate BUT if the owner started arguing then out comes the book and pen.

They told me it doesn't matter where I fitted it as long as it was of legal height, visable at a 45* angle left, right and above and was lit up at night. After the discussion I proceeded to solve my problem....

Bass · Senior Member

Hope your right Doug. I have 3 coppers in the family ( vic ) and while I haven't asked them about this I know they hate wasting time on senseless issues. but still I think I had better take a leaf out of your book and drop the plate a bit. not as though I haven't got time on my hands.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Unless there has been something new since June 2015 - nearly a year ago - it would seem the bubble and heat has gone out of this 'issue'.

NRMA seem to have not pursued it any further - or if they have, they aren't letting anyone know - and we have no further information on how many (if any) have been booked ... in NSW or anywhere else for that matter.

I continue to check out every van I see these days and I would suggest at least 6 out of every 10 vans I see are not compliant - and have never been booked or had it mentioned to them ... by the constabulary or any other traveller. Most have difficulty in accepting that I am not pulling their leg ... and that the ADR actually exists.

Almost without exception, the owners of these vans were completely unaware of the ADR and their van's apparent non-compliance.

Therefore, given so many "non-compliant" vans on the road - and apparently so few getting booked ... I think it was (or has been) a bit of a storm in a teacup stirred up by one person approaching NRMA for assistance/advice.

If anyone has further - up to date - information I would be pleased to hear of it.

Cheers - and safe travelling - John

Possum3 · Guru

@ John,
We were pulled over and had, number plate height checked, all chain linkages checked, weights verified to compliance, etc. last August (2015) between Mt Isa and Cloncurry. It was a joint operation between Qld Transport and Qld State Police - I spoke to one of the S. Cnst. who told me they had been brought in from the "Coast" for a week long blitz. From what I gather it was a very profitable exercise with them pulling over many dozens of un-licenced, overweight, DUI's as well as major and minor defects.
We were totally compliant and had no worries, but there was some others that were having quite animated discussions with the constabulary.

It is certainly a matter that; although a minor defect - it's on the books and can cost the unwary three demerit points + about $300. If your plate is mounted too high or unable to be seen at 45 degrees X 20 meters - it will cost less than a fine to have it rectified.

migra · Senior Member

If you have a crusader van, contact your dealer and have it corrected at no charge to you.

you are responsible for the fine $415 & loss of 3 demerit points.

migra · Senior Member

Guru

There is continued action on the number plate issue and if the caravan is registered in NSW, the remote battery monitor.

As late as Feb 2016 correspondence has been sent to Paul Fletcher MP, Minister for Major Projects, Territories and Local Government regarding both these issues as he is the Federal Member responsible for the ADR which covers the number plate height issue.

It is my understanding there have at least 10 manufacturers tabled that are manufacturing caravans and are self certifying registration for these non complient caravans and exposing the owner to the fines and loss of demerit points.

The last paragraph in his letter of reply states in part "regard is being given to the current practices for regulating caravans and whether there is need for change".

The comments within the letter have been passed onto the committee currently reviewing the Motor Vehicle Standards Act Reform as at Feb 2016, part of this review is to establish appropiate certification requirements for trailers under 4.5 tonnes.

The enforcement of the number plate height and the fitting of the breakaway remote battery monitor passes to state and territory governments, which are responsible for the registration, road-worhthiness, vehicle modifications and vehicle use, including the use of vehicle combinations (towing vehicles connected to trailers).

Correspondence is being prepared to send to the both state and territory ministers asking as to why the ADR is not being enforced.

There have been discussions with the New South Wales RMS as to why inspection stations are passing these defective vehicles and they have advised if you can supply the names of these stations they will send a compliance officer to the premises and review their operations.

The RMS is aware of the issue and have sent compliance staff to caravan shows to inspect caravans being exhibit.

Be aware most caravan manufacturers are located in Victoria and Queensland and it is their state authorities that need to be more proactive with policing the number plate issue.

If you do have a caravan with a number plate above the legal height limit you should contact the seller of the van and bring it to their attention requesting they fix the defect and if not willing notify your local Consumer Affairs by filling out the complaints form provided by them.

I have yet to speak to anyone who have advised their insurance company that they are towing a defective caravan, but I understand there could be a problem with continuance of the policy.

So people who want to continue to drive with a defective vehicle are aware of the consequences.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Thanks for the update Migra.

It would be a damned sight better if those 'authorities' who are being lobbied regarding these issues were at least a BIT proactive and provided some advice to the general public.

It is ridiculous that owners of vans that "may" be non-compliant are completely uninformed - unless they are members of a forum such as this - that they are exposed to the potential of a substantial fine and loss of demerit points.

To say the 'general population' is completely in the dark on this issue is understating it.

This is just another example that there is little - or no - consideration for the public.

Thankfully it is not a safety issue - and only a problem for 'authorities' to be able to "read" licence plates with their cameras.

The process of "preparing" and "issuing" correspondence to the "state and territory ministers asking as to why the ADR is not being enforced" is standard governmental practice - time consuming and could take many months.

This statement bothers me -

"There have been discussions with the New South Wales RMS as to why inspection stations are passing these defective vehicles and they have advised if you can supply the names of these stations they will send a compliance officer to the premises and review their operations.

The RMS is aware of the issue and have sent compliance staff to caravan shows to inspect caravans being exhibit."

Who has been having these "discussions"? It is a little bit galling that whoever has initiated these "discussions" with RMS are expecting the general public to advise "whoever the discussion initiators are" of inspection stations passing "defective" vehicles. While whoever is 'preparing correspondence' perhaps they could also simply issue a "Service/Safety/Compliance" Bulletin to DIRECT inspection stations etc to NOT register vans that are non-compliant - beginning NOW.

Nothing in the way of "general advice" and it would appear that there has been very little "action" by way of advice to caravan/RV manufacturers to "be compliant". Any penalty for them?????????

Sorry to rant on - but if the "non-compliance" of so many existing caravans/RVs is considered worthy of a stiff fine and the loss of demerit points, then I wonder about the entire industry - and those 'authorities' who have allowed these vans to be issued with registration as 'compliant'.

Penalties for the owner of a 'non-compliant' van - no penalty for the persons/s who have allowed these 'non-compliances' - who's responsible here.

Stinks ! ! Especially when I have yet to meet anyone with a non-compliant caravan who has been stopped, checked, fined, or even warned of the non-compliance by 'authorities' ... BUT they travel completely uninformed with the potential over THEIR heads. cry

Cheers - John

Dunmowin · Guru

We have only heard about this issue a few weeks ago. We contacted ou manufacturer ( kedron), tey are sending out a kit free of charge to remedy. But, we were surprised there had been no correspondence from them prior to this point.

migra · Senior Member

Dunmowin

how old is your van ?

Radar · Guru

It is amazing that you can pick up the leading caravan mag the writers go on to say the tap is to low or power point to high but there is never any comment about the number plate height.

My 8 year old caravan is illegal, oh my gosh.

Maybe there is a chain of responsibility here.

-- Edited by Radar on Saturday 2nd of April 2016 04:34:42 PM

ken thomas · Guru

How can these caravans even pass the inspection to get them registered ??
Ken

migra · Senior Member

Ken

The problem is the caravan manufacturers have self certification authority so they do not have to submit them to an independent vehicle inspector than there is a 5 year time period before the caravan has to be submitted for inspection.

This self certification authority should be removed from the manufacturer.

Jamjar · Senior Member

Get a petition going and send it off to the RTAs requesting that a flyer explaining number plate height regs be sent out with rego renewals.

J.

migra · Senior Member

You organize/draft the petition and we will sign it.

Maybe posted from this site.

Jamjar · Senior Member

migra wrote:
You organize/draft the petition and we will sign it.
Maybe posted from this site.

Would love to, but currently in the middle of writing 4, 2500 word essays for uni, all due in two weeks. Then I start the next 4.

Dunmowin · Guru

migra wrote:
Dunmowin
how old is your van ?

Rolled off the line in Feb 2011

Hylife · Guru

ken thomas wrote:
How can these caravans even pass the inspection to get them registered ??
Ken

Depends on the state they are registered in. Whilst there are ADR, states and territories are NOT legally obligated to abide by them and indeed there are numerous variations between the states and territories, however, all states and territories of Australia have agreed to respect the laws of the others. If your vehicle passes and is registered in one state then you can't be booked when you travel interstate where the laws or interpretations of roadworthiness may be different.
EG if your van is a Vic reg and is up to Vic requirements then failing an interstate NSW or Qld law is a non-issue and you can't be booked for it.

The same applies to driver licencing. The licence is issued by the state and applies to the driver and any and all of the restrictions or freedoms applied to the licence in the state of issue also apply interstate. EG, a Red P plater in NSW is restricted to a max 80kph and this restriction also applies when they drive interstate (eg Vic) even though the restriction is not applied to a Vic issued red P Plater.

-- Edited by Hylife on Sunday 3rd of April 2016 10:49:22 PM

migra · Senior Member

FYI, In correspondence received from Paul Fletcher MP, Minister for Major Projects, Territories and Local Government, regarding the issue of number plates being affixed to caravans above the legal height limit of 1300mm, paragraph 2 states "The Australian Government regulates the manufacturer of new road vehicles (including caravans) to ensure an acceptable level of safety, emission control and theft protection across the Australian fleet. Before new road trailers can be supplied to the market, they must demonstrate compliance with the national standards - the Australian Design Rules (ADRs)" This is done through a certification process where evidence (often in the form of test reports) is provided to show compliance with each applicable ADR. If the evidence of compliance is satisfactory , a manufacturer is issued with an Identification Plate Approval which allows the supply to the market of that type of trailer.

It is very clear that the self certification process given to caravan manufacturers to register caravans is NOT working and therefore this self certification MUST be removed from the caravan manufacturer.

In NSW, the backgroung to the number plate issue (VSI No. 58, schedule 2,clause 61(2)(b), state in part "the position and visibility of number plates plays an important part in helping in ensure road safety. Obscured or positioning of number plates create difficulties in identifying vehicles detected committing a breach of road transport law by various camera enforement tools. This may lead to instances of unsafe driving practices as drivers believe that they may escape penalties for such breaches. In addition, automatic number plate recognition tolling devices, such as e-tags, do not work, consequently, there are specific requirements for the positioning and visibility of number plates on a vehicle".

The RMS in NSW, authorise the inspectors on mandatory inspection requirements for the positioning and visibility of number plates on vehicles intended to be registered.

This morning I phoned the NRMA legal team and discussed this issue at length and were advised;

Return the caravan to the manufacturer for the relocation of the number plate to the compliant height or;

Return the caravan to the vehicle inspector and have the number plate relocated, it should not have passed registration.

If no response, take it up with the local inspection authority e.g. RMS, VICRoads, QLDRoads etc

The RMS Technical Department phone number is 1300 137 302

The onus is on the driver towing the caravan, if pulled up all fines and loss of demerit points are on the driver, saying this is how it was delivered or it has just past registration will not exempt the driver.

-- Edited by migra on Monday 4th of April 2016 09:46:47 AM

Hylife · Guru

migra wrote:
FYI, In correspondence received from Paul Fletcher MP, Minister for Major Projects, Territories and Local Government, regarding the issue of number plates being affixed to caravans above the legal height limit of 1300mm, paragraph 2 states "The Australian Government regulates the manufacturer of new road vehicles (including caravans) to ensure an acceptable level of safety, emission control and theft protection across the Australian fleet. Before new road trailers can be supplied to the market, they must demonstrate compliance with the national standards - the Australian Design Rules (ADRs)" This is done through a certification process where evidence (often in the form of test reports) is provided to show compliance with each applicable ADR. If the evidence of compliance is satisfactory , a manufacturer is issued with an Identification Plate Approval which allows the supply to the market of that type of trailer.

Mr Fletcher MP can say whatever he wants. Citing of old outdated explanations for rules makes him look like a dill.
Thankfully, in our democratic Australia, police and politicians do not make laws by themselves nor do they have the authority to interpret laws, that is the sole domain of the courts.
The fact that there are ADRs does not make it state law nor does this place any legal obligation on the states and or territories.
I repeat, the states and territories are under no legal oblgation to abide by any or all of the ADR or Australian Road Rules and regardless of what might go down in NSW it is irrelevant if your vehicle is registered in another jurisdiction.

I can't speak for other states but the Vic rules are simple.
Only official VicRoads plates on Vic registered vehicles, upright, clean, no reflective covers or tints, mounted between 300 and 1300mm high, visable from 20 meters with up to 45 degrees left right or above.
But, VicRoads does also state: "If your vehicle makes it difficult for you to meet these requirements, you need to make them as closely as possible."

But tell me, how many nomads towing a caravan, mature sensible drivers with decades of experience, trying to enjoy our sunset years in Gods wonderous outback waiting room, are going to be speeding or otherwise breaking the law in such a manner so as to create a hazard or safety issue to ourselves or other road users, whereby an outdated automated system that needs to snap our picture has difficulty with a number plate over 1300mm high?
Almost none. It is pure and simple unabashed revenue raising.

The bit about etags is a complete load of nonesense. Tolling devices such as Etags don't use the number plate, they use the ETAG! Doh!

Lets be sensible here. The real issue of number plate postioning is only of concern to old outdated radar equipment.Modern equipment is fully computerised and the inbuilt algorithm can detect and decipher the number plate anywhere within the digital picture. This is why all states no longer require windscreen fixed registration stickers.

It was the development of electronic number plate recognition systems by the private companies that were sold government leases to build tolled motorways that have resulted in virtually all Australian enforcement authorities such as Police, Sherrifs and roads authorities fitting the same electronic systems to their cars. They don't even need to stop you now. Just drive up the road and the automated system snaps your image, analyses the number plate, looks up the records and generates and mails out the ticket.

The argument of contention with 'state' governements is that their old tech systems have become massive revenue raising devices that now have to be upgraded, at some expense.

Interestingly, in Vic we now see the new tech being widely used by the sherrifs department and the police for revenue enforcement. They simply drive around major shopping center carparks with a boot load of wheel clamps and anyone with an unregistered vehicle or oustanding fines gets wheel clamped!
In another example (which I personally approve of) a police vehicle system sees a car being driven quite normally, but the computer says the registered owner is a suspended driver, or the registered owner has a previous drink or drug driving offence, so they pull it over for a driver check, breath test, tongue swab, and/or immediate wheel clamp for outstanding fines. Often it is not the registered owner driving but in the early days they did catch way too many drivers who should not be behind the wheel. I'm quite happy for a someone to be inconvenienced with an enforced roadside stop if those additional sanctions means their spouse never drink-drug drives again.

ken thomas · Guru

migra wrote:
Ken
The problem is the caravan manufacturers have self certification authority so they do not have to submit them to an independent vehicle inspector than there is a 5 year time period before the caravan has to be submitted for inspection.
This self certification authority should be removed from the manufacturer.

That might be true, but when it is registered, it is measured, lights checked and vin plate checked, so why not the number plate height

Ken

migra · Senior Member

I'm happy for you if that is your requirement in Vic.

I will let other people make their decision based on the instructions by VicRoads Technical Department.

BTW, if you have no problem I would like to forward your comments for comment.

Mutley · Senior Member

I must be missing something! Like most on this forum, I've been towing various trailers for over 40 years, I've never once been stopped to have my reg plate hight checked. I've been stopped at random roadworthy checks (like most people have) & that's all they've ever done, checked the tug & trailer are roadworthy - ie that the lights/indicators/brake lights/brakes work & the tyres are legal. They've looked to make sure I have a chain in place, but that's it! No checking for numbers stamped on the chain or rated shackles, & nobody has ever even looked for my compliance plate.

Delta18 · Guru

Hylife wrote:

The bit about etags is a complete load of nonesense. Tolling devices such as Etags don't use the number plate, they use the ETAG! Doh!

Surely if the Toll Device doesn't see an Etag (eg: interstate vehicle) it will record the rego for follow-up?

-- Edited by Delta18 on Saturday 16th of April 2016 11:53:33 PM