Self Contained/ Leave No Trace

Casualkev · Senior Member

Self Contained/ Leave No Trace

KFT · Guru

I have looked at these portable waste tanks and the issues with permanent install on my van but have not yet decided which way I will go.

Not being a member of CMCA I do not have to comply with their code of conduct which I think is meant mainly for those wishing to overnight in a town area.

We much prefer to stay well out of towns and away from the issues created by staying in a populated area.

In 15 or so years of caravanning we have only ever come across a couple of places we may have liked to stay but could not because the sign specified "self contained"

I am still thinking about it and have seen some innovative ways of containment.

Frank

Santa · Guru

Beats me why we join an organisation to be constantly railed at as to how we should behave and what we should do under all circumstances whilst on the road.

If your not a member of the CMCA, and I suspect most caravaners are not, don't concern yourself with their edicts, if someone chips you for your practices perhaps then would be the time to think about changes.

As a matter of interest we do comply, not because of the CMCA, it just seems like the right thing to do. smile

Cupie · Guru

Organisations like the CMCA are just not my cup of tea.

Having said that, I am sure that they provide a valuable service to a great number of people & perhaps the Caravanning community at large.

Given that I don't bush camp, being 'Self Sufficient' is not a consideration for me.

Casualkev · Senior Member

I'm not overly fond of anyone pushing their own agenda either, the CMCA have an agenda and seem to be pushing it at every opportunity and with councils listening just how long before these guidelines will be council regulations, then what? The only reason I posted the guidelines was to point out that it is very simple to be self contained and to leave no trace and I'm not a member of the CMCA

Kev

-- Edited by Casualkev on Monday 23rd of November 2015 01:25:08 PM

Cupie · Guru

Pity that such an 'Official' looking document was not effectively proof read before sign off.

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extract ...

Grey water If a vehicle has a portable (temporary) grey waste water tank (tote), these must be a tank that is specifically manufactured for the purpose of collecting grey water. These are permitted of filling and discharging of grey water from the vehicle to the disposal point as long as the vehicle discharge point has a permanently installed shut off valve, and the drainage pipe to the tote is water tight.

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Do they mean FOR not OF ? Pretty sub standard stuff for an organisation that sets itself up as a National Authority with such lofty ideals.

Or am I just being picky.

kiwijims · Guru

I have just about finished refurbishing our latest Caravan, a 96 Coromal, as we intend to do mainly bush camping but also being able to camp overnight in a self contained vehicle area, I solved the problem very cheaply,

I got hold of a 1m length of 90mm PVC pipe and after gluing caps on each end, I fitted two 20mm pipes, one to each end, one connects to the drain pipe from the sink, the other end fits inside a 20mm drain hose going through the floor, this is fitted with a stop **** underneath the van and a connection for a 20mm drain hose. I fitted the pipe under the cupboard at the front of the van well out of the way and it works very well holding a bit over two sink fills of waste water, when we leave the town I open the stop **** at the nearest dump point and it self drains no worries,

The waste water from the shower is drained into a 65l tank that I fitted at the rear under the floor. this also has a stop**** and works the same as the under-sink tank, no dropped waste anywhere, the locals are happy and we find it no worries to empty the waste where there is a disposable point.

The font pipe under the sink............

The rear 65l tank, holds the shower water ...............

I have since removed the plastic bottom pipe ( hanging too low ) and fitted a pvc pipe out the rear with stop****.

K.J.

Loki · Senior Member

Query - do vessels such as the 20L tanks allow you to free camp in areas where you need to be 'self contained'? That is, is the land manger's definition of 'self contained; as stringent as the CMCA? I am all for leaving no trace but it isn't always possible to have tanks built in.

JayDee · Guru

A large number of the place where we have bush / free camped that are controlled by authorities, have asked us to make sure we place the grey water waste over the grass and or the trees / scrubs. They need the water and I am sure that the soil and tree survival habits can filter out the water to allow the said flora to survive.
We have even been asked to allow our grey water to flow on the ground in some C.Parks.
So what is all the fuss about.
We will continue to use 20 litre portable sealed containers.
Why we even use the shower water with wool wash to do our washing. And you know, I have not had one person tell us that it about time we had a wash day.
To many good doers in our community with nothing else to do but to make it difficult for the few.

Jay&Dee

Bruce and Bev · Guru

Hi Kev. You are right with the CMCA pushing their ideas onto small councils and shires. Many of them have businesses starving for money and the idea of RVs turning up and spending up large (and many don't), they don't appreciate that most caravans don't have grey water tanks and therefore are not self-sufficient. So the next time you drive into a town and see the RV Friendly sign, the CMCA has been at work and the only ones that qualify are usually motor homes - for whom the CMCA caters for. BTW You can only be an associate member of the CMCA if you own a caravan with no voting rights to change their policies and rules.

I agree entirely with the comments of KFT and Santa.

And retro-fitting grey water tanks to your van is often not an option. It maybe lack of space, the extra weight or making your 'van out of balance.

I find it amusing that you so often follow a motor home out of a free camp area and there is a steady trickle of grey water from their emptying grey water tanks splashing on the road. And to some motor home owners - I know you do the right thing and don't do this, but go to an appropriate dump point (not a septic tank one which will rapidly fill up with all that liquid and cost the ratepayers to have it regularly emptied).

in transit · Senior Member

I agree with you John.
We are self contained but if camping in dry country we frequently open the drain from the grey water tank, sometimes putting a bucket under it and distributing the water around struggling plants. We have lived in houses where the laundry and shower went to the garden via hoses, a practice that was encouraged by councils/shires. The benefit to the vegie garden was all positive.

We are a CMCA member and have never been told to leave no trace. There is a form to be completed if you want to conform. We didn't and they seem quite prepared to accept our money.

D and D · Guru

Another thread of CMCA bashing to no benefit to anyone.

The CMCA represent their membership as detailed in their constitution they are not obliged to represent the interests of those who are not within their membership or their membership demographic but they don't restrict non-members from enjoying some of the things they do such as publicly available and free dump points, availability of potable, fresh water, suitable parking for RVs close to shops and so forth. If you think you need collective representation and don't believe that the CMCA provide that then join another group such as the ACC (www.australiancaravanclub.com.au/) but for God's sake stop whinging about what the CMCA does or doesn't do.

Dave

Cupie · Guru

D and D wrote:
Another thread of CMCA bashing to no benefit to anyone.

The CMCA represent their membership as detailed in their constitution they are not obliged to represent the interests of those who are not within their membership or their membership demographic but they don't restrict non-members from enjoying some of the things they do such as publicly available and free dump points, availability of potable, fresh water, suitable parking for RVs close to shops and so forth. If you think you need collective representation and don't believe that the CMCA provide that then join another group such as the ACC (www.australiancaravanclub.com.au/) but for God's sake stop whinging about what the CMCA does or doesn't do.

Dave

Dave ..

I hope that you are not including me in your criticism ..

my post ..

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Organisations like the CMCA are just not my cup of tea.

Having said that, I am sure that they provide a valuable service to a great number of people & perhaps the Caravanning community at large.

Given that I don't bush camp, being 'Self Sufficient' is not a consideration for me.

................................................................................................................

The second post was a comment on the error in their 'policy' wording.

For my part I have no desire for any body to represent my (caravanning related) interests but I do reserve the right to give my views on any organisation such as the CMCA that takes a public position on issues..

ShirleyP · Member

I agree Dave, live & let live, one gets sick of people finding fault continually with an organisation that has always been working for years & still is to improve conditions for ALL RV travellers, give it a break for goodness sake.

mjt57 · Senior Member

Shirley. I'm new to this scene. I've yet to buy my first van. So I'm pretty much sitting back and watching all of this.

But from what I've seen CMCA is not an all inclusive organisation. It has a lot of clout. And is in a position to influence public policy. And it seems to have policies that tend to exclude caravan owners.

If it takes just one cent from the public purse to have motor home only facilities built then whatever "bashing" that it gets then maybe it's justified.

And of course if the likes of ACC doesn't lobby for its members then they need to do something.

When I get the van initially it'll be caravan park destinations. I'll probably end up modifying it if it needs it to become self sufficient.

For example if there is room under the van I'll run a pair of 100mm PVC pipes to capture grey water with the requisite drain valves and fittings for hoses. Depending on available space I could get up to 90 litres of storage.

But if we get a van built we will look at it being included in the construction.

PeterD · Guru

Loki wrote:
Query - do vessels such as the 20L tanks allow you to free camp in areas where you need to be 'self contained'? That is, is the land manger's definition of 'self contained; as stringent as the CMCA?

The CMCA requirements are not particularly strict. The only addition to a standard van they require is to have a portable pottie and some method to take your water with you. Any authority allowing camping for self contained rigs that have requirements different from the CMCA ones generally do not permit portable grey water containers. I have seen reports where travellers using the Cooktown free camping have been moved on because they don't have tanks installed under their rig.

Those requiring the tighter regulations claim that campers are liable to allow containers to overflow or water will be spilt when changing over or disconnection containers.

Edit, on re reading the above I see I did not directly answer the first part of your question. The CMCA self containment allows containers that can be sealed (including gerry cans or those buckets with double sealed lids) to be used to remove water. They must be clearly labelled as belonging to your vehicle to comply with a self containment certificate.

-- Edited by PeterD on Tuesday 24th of November 2015 12:12:10 AM

PeterD · Guru

Cupie wrote:
Dave ..
I hope that you are not including me in your criticism ..

The only thing I can pick up from you replies is you may perhaps be confusing terms.

being 'Self Sufficient' is not a consideration for me

Anyone who goes bush to camp is probably self sufficient. The thread is about 'self containment,' that is going the second mile and removing all trace of having camped there by removing your rubbish and taking all your waste water (grey and black) with you.

ShirleyP · Member

Not true mjt57, caravan owners are welcome to join the CMCA, the only thing they can't do is vote & very few members bother to vote anyway. The CMCA camps that are being set up now for members are being financed by the CMCA as a members' benefit, the club has worked for years to improve RV travel for everyone.

PeterD · Guru

mjt57 wrote:
1.. But from what I've seen CMCA is not an all inclusive organisation. It has a lot of clout. And is in a position to influence public policy. And it seems to have policies that tend to exclude caravan owners.

2.. And of course if the likes of ACC doesn't lobby for its members then they need to do something.

3.. When I get the van initially it'll be caravan park destinations. I'll probably end up modifying it if it needs it to become self sufficient.

1.. I have seen it said that the CMCA was started by some motorhomers who were denied membership of some caravan clubs. This led them in part to become anti caravan people. They have since mellowed. The first signs were when they admitted 5th wheelers. Then next allowed caravanners to join, they were denied voting rights (and still are) and were only permitted to attend one motorhome rally. The one rally restriction has since been relaxed.

There are many caravan clubs and in the early 90s they finally managed to form a national association. This association is composed of the state associations. The states in turn host the national rally, during 2007 the NACC and the CMCA both used the Forbes show ground for their national rallies. During the planning for these the Forbes council hosted a gathering of both groups to arrange some common planning. During that gathering the two groups started talking to each other. The result of that meeting was the formation of a peak council MoTOURing was formed to service RV travellers (open the link and read about it.) The NACC have embraced the RV friendly towns concept - see this link. Althoughthe CMCA largely fund MotOURing. More info here.

Yes the CMCA did back in the early days get things set up for them. However the impetus for this did not come from an attempt to lock caravanners out but to maintain access to free and low cost camping for themselves. Part of this campaign was to convince the authorities that they could camp in these places and not be a burden to the local community. Leave no trace and self containment were the means of indicating that these campers could camp in those places without leaving a mess. With the formation of MoTOURing and the extra clout that the body has with the caravanner membership CMCA is now going in to bat for all groups. Any camping that has been saved from closure no longer wears the sign "motor homes only."

2.. ACC was initially a member of MoTOURing but they spat the dummy and withdrew their support. I think that has left them less effective.

3.. To become "self sufficient" all you need to do is to add a solar system to your van or use portable battery lights for night lighting. To be able to park in places where leave no trace applies you will need to set your van up to be self contained.

PeterD · Guru

Santa wrote:
Beats me why we join an organisation to be constantly railed at as to how we should behave and what we should do under all circumstances whilst on the road.
If your not a member of the CMCA, and I suspect most caravaners are not, don't concern yourself with their edicts, if someone chips you for your practices perhaps then would be the time to think about changes.
As a matter of interest we do comply, not because of the CMCA, it just seems like the right thing to do.

Santa, I don't see membership as being "constantly railed at." Their guidelines are basically what any one who wants to do the right thing will be following in the first place. If you are compliant with their LNT scheme then you can have a certificate to show any inspector that chats you that you are willing to comply.

As an aside, the CMCA with all their rules do not insist that their members be self contained. Think more of the rules as guidelines for participation in camping in places where LNC applies.

-- Edited by PeterD on Tuesday 24th of November 2015 10:16:03 AM

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

I'm more than happy with CMCA the dump points is enough for me to pay..
It may sound over bearing rules .. I guess the preaching is for councils to see "we "
Are doing the right thing.. I have a suspicion ? As long as grey water is stored enough to hold
Solids especially it's MUCH. Better on environment , smells etc..
I often empty grey water where I think it's appropriate .. But I often wander if there's some nark
Out there to do Dob..?? It's a dry country after all...

Casualkev · Senior Member

Self Contained/ Leave No Trace/ CMCA policy

Izabarack · Guru

RE: Self Contained/ Leave No Trace

Bryan · Guru

I have a caravan and I am a member of CMCA for 6 years or so. I am happy with my choice.

ShirleyP · Member

Don and Erica Whitworth founded the Campervan and Motorhome Club of Australia (CMCA) in April 1986, they owned a VW Combi & had travelled extensively with their 3 children & was interested in meeting like minded people, within 10 mths there was 1000 members, by July 1988 2000 members & so the club has grown to what it is today. It has always been a M.H. Club, the story goes that fivers became acceptable when one of the serving Directors purchased one but that was before we joined. I know in the years we have been members CMCA has been responsible for the installation of most of the dump points that you all use Australia wide & they are still organising more. Folk can please themselves whether they want to join or not, can please themselves how involved they want to be in club events but I think it is about time that non members stopped rubbishing a great organisation.

Hylda&Jon · Guru

ShirleyP wrote:
Don and Erica Whitworth founded the Campervan and Motorhome Club of Australia (CMCA) in April 1986, they owned a VW Combi & had travelled extensively with their 3 children & was interested in meeting like minded people, within 10 mths there was 1000 members, by July 1988 2000 members & so the club has grown to what it is today. It has always been a M.H. Club, the story goes that fivers became acceptable when one of the serving Directors purchased one but that was before we joined. I know in the years we have been members CMCA has been responsible for the installation of most of the dump points that you all use Australia wide & they are still organising more. Folk can please themselves whether they want to join or not, can please themselves how involved they want to be in club events but I think it is about time that non members stopped rubbishing a great organisation.

I think everyone is entitled to express their own opinion even if it is negative, as long as it is constructive criticism. That's what living in a free country is all about.

Cruising Cruze · Guru

This is the Grey Nomads website

Who cares what the CMCA does
Give it time
next thing they want you to do is recycle your grey water so they leave no trace at all
also they will make you to have a dry composting Toilet installed in your van

PeterD · Guru

Well that's a confused message from Cruising Cruze. First he says Who cares what the CMCA does and then goes into a bit of paranoia about what they are likely to do. Can't you people realise that these days most of the motorhomers are not against caravanners. What they are doing is to save us from being locked out of many camping areas. They are attempting to do this in a manner that is not too onerous for all of us. So what's all the hysteria about?

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Cruising Cruze wrote:
This is the Grey Nomads website

Who cares what the CMCA does
Give it time
next thing they want you to do is recycle your grey water so they leave no trace at all
also they will make you to have a dry composting Toilet installed in your van

That's a good idea .. Aha be carefull .. the councils may wish this .. Lol

Ozzie_Traveller · Senior Member

G'day all

I find it interesting as to how the OP started talking about grey water tanks with a side refernce to CMCA, and the thread has now become a "hit CMCA" sort of thread

I would like to bring the thread back to grey water please

International requirements for "self-contained" vehicles all specify some means of grey water capture

Whether it's europe, or many US states or our mates over the ditch, the NZs ...if you are planning to camp in a designated "self-contained" camping area, your van is required to have some sort of grey water capture for 'appropriate' disposal later on

All across europe, all of NZ and more & more Aussie towns are making free or low-cost camping sites available for "self-contained" campers. This has the implied requirement for grey water capture. If your van does not have grey water capture and you are camped in one of these sites, the town ranger might ask you to move on - much to your [and mine if it were me] annoyance

One of the many issues with grey water disposal is "our mates in caravan parks ... the ants"
How many of you have had ants swarming up the caravan's legs etc [yes I know you can put white powder around the tyres etc] - and what brings ants in so great numbers into the grass? Food scraps washed from the kitchen sink onto the grass under the caravan

Many of us use the black poly pipe to direct our grey water off-site into the bushes - and that's great, but regrettably, too many campers do not do so. Also, there are too many instances of campers letting their kitchen sink waters 'go' while they are parked on hard-surfaced parking areas, leaving a large puddle behind

This is why I and others have a grey water tank - and it is emptied appropriately 'off-site'
ps- I presume that you are aware that in June 2015, Jayco announced that grey water tanks would be fitted to all their 'top range' vans, with it as an option to other vans
Phil

-- Edited by Ozzie_Traveller on Wednesday 25th of November 2015 10:00:56 AM