Emissions

bowser · Veteran Member

Emissions

Leather Tech · Veteran Member

Hi Bowser
I installed a blanking plate in my 2011 Ranger. no noticeable performance change but on a 500km economy run on the same road without towing without egr plate 10lt per 100km.with egr plate 9lt per 100. Its supposed to be so much cleaner for the engine to instal egr plate. I tried drilling 5,8 and 10mm holes in my blanking plate but could not get the check engine light to go off, a common problem for Rangers and many other makes. EGR only operates at lower power/acceleration so no benefit installing a blanking plate if you are towing a lot. Check out the 4wd sites , they go into great detail on these.
Regards Peter.

Jaahn · Guru

Hi,

I know that there are lots of places like forums where the use of illegal modifications is promoted. Why would you publically admit or advocate illegal activity. Or indeed why would you do it. Just for the sake of few dollars you would be prepared to stuff up the world around us. Hope I do not come across you as that attitude is not to my liking.

Jaahn

dorian · Guru

Hmm, 10lt per 100km versus 9lt per 100km.

That's about a 10% saving in fuel. If the difference in emissions between EGR and non-EGR operation is less than 10%, then that's a plus for the environment and the economy.

Dreamweaver · Veteran Member

Have a look on the Pajero 4WD Club of Victoria Public Forum web site. There is a lot of information on the benefits and non benefits of blanking off the EGR. There is also a thing called an Oil Catch Can which you can install in your vehicle to trap the excess oil which instead of being recirculated back through your motor and causing blockages down the track is caught and then can be drained away. Only the engine gas is sent back into the engine. Blanking off the EGR can void your warranty and is not environmentally friendly. I would suspect most common rail diesel engines can be fitted with an oil catch can. Also you could google Diesel Care. These people have enormous amount of knowledge of all things diesel.

deverall11 · Guru

bowser wrote:
EGR valve blocker has any one got information as to effect on the performance of your vehicle.
People views on doing it, And is it recommended,
Regards Bowser.

Mainly stops exhaust gunk from going in your sump and prematurely dirtying your engine oil.

03_Troopy · Guru

And your intake manifold

Hylife · Guru

<quote> EGR valve blocker has any one got information as to effect on the performance of your vehicle </quote>

For the moment lets just ignore the environmental and emissions issue, or the now unroadworthy condition of your vehicle as it now now longer complies with the original design approval.

Your ECU is tuned to expect a specific range of readings from various sensors on your entire drive train.

If you mess with things like the Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve you can expect the ECU to take corrective action.

This includes enriching the fuel mixture resulting in greater fuel consumption and less power, and displaying the FI error light on the dash.

deverall11 · Guru

Hylife wrote:
<quote> EGR valve blocker has any one got information as to effect on the performance of your vehicle </quote>

For the moment lets just ignore the environmental and emissions issue, or the now unroadworthy condition of your vehicle as it now now longer complies with the original design approval.
Your ECU is tuned to expect a specific range of readings from various sensors on your entire drive train.
If you mess with things like the Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve you can expect the ECU to take corrective action.
This includes enriching the fuel mixture resulting in greater fuel consumption and less power, and displaying the FI error light on the dash.

ECUs on mainstream vehicles are not that clever. They actually operate around a set of pre-programmed instructions. Removing/blocking the EGR valve is not one of those. As a matter of fact on a Landcruiser V8 diesel if you completely block the EGR valve you will get an error and send the ECU in limp mode. This is because the ECU has encountered a condition it does not know what to do with. The way around it is to make a small hole on the blanking plate to in order to fool the ECU into thinking all is good. May be different with the model due to be released son carrying a DPF.

Larry

-- Edited by deverall11 on Thursday 19th of November 2015 05:16:36 PM

dorian · Guru

Hylife wrote:
If you mess with things like the Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve you can expect the ECU to take corrective action.
This includes enriching the fuel mixture resulting in greater fuel consumption and less power, and displaying the FI error light on the dash.

Doesn't the O2 sensor determine how the ECU sets the fuel mixture?

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

It lets inert gasses back into combustion chamber to prevent heat and assists in burning the fuel in chamber .. While adding lots of timing to burn fuel at light loads .. This helps emissions and fuel economy .. If working correct .. Discnnecting EGR can cause detonation / engine failure ..
On diesels they can have issues blocking up..
On petrol engines .. It can reduce detonation big time.. Being an inert gas it doesn't burn and assists catalytic converter from over heating .. Usually switching off and on ..

-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Thursday 19th of November 2015 10:58:58 PM

03_Troopy · Guru

dorian wrote:
Hylife wrote:
If you mess with things like the Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve you can expect the ECU to take corrective action.
This includes enriching the fuel mixture resulting in greater fuel consumption and less power, and displaying the FI error light on the dash.
Doesn't the O2 sensor determine how the ECU sets the fuel mixture?

Yep

Basic description from How Stuff Works

" The oxygen sensor is positioned in the exhaust pipe and can detect rich and lean mixtures. The mechanism in most sensors involves a chemical reaction that generates a voltage (see the patents below for details). The engine's computer looks at the voltage to determine if the mixture is rich or lean, and adjusts the amount of fuel entering the engine accordingly.

The reason why the engine needs the oxygen sensor is because the amount of oxygen that the engine can pull in depends on all sorts of things, such as the altitude, the temperature of the air, the temperature of the engine, the barometric pressure, the load on the engine, etc.

When the oxygen sensor fails, the computer can no longer sense the air/fuel ratio, so it ends up guessing. Your car performs poorly and uses more fuel than it needs to. "

deverall11 · Guru

Aus-Kiwi wrote:
It lets inert gasses back into combustion chamber to prevent heat and assists in burning the fuel in chamber .. While adding lots of timing to burn fuel at light loads .. This helps emissions and fuel economy .. If working correct .. Discnnecting EGR can cause detonation / engine failure ..
On diesels they can have issues blocking up..
On petrol engines .. It can reduce detonation big time.. Being an inert gas it doesn't burn and assists catalytic converter from over heating .. Usually switching off and on ..

-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Thursday 19th of November 2015 10:58:58 PM

I have blocked my EGR and so did 100's of Landcruiser owners (200 series V8 diesel). All of them have positive feedback. No has removed theirs other then to install it on their new upgrades.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Yes the same with some Cummens engines as the original EGR could be said to be an issue ...
As in some engines in F series Fords .. Which has been corrected, often due to little or no maintenance..

As the OP didn't say what model he was talking about ?
What I said is true to modern ECU powered diesel / petrol engines..
As generic info..

Jaahn · Guru

HI biggrin

i do believe there are some people talking through their a** here.

There are basic differences between a diesel engine control system and a petrol engine control system. Diesel engines have also taken a couple of large steps over recent years, mainly to control the emissions, and to compare the older mechanical injection types to the ECU controlled ones is just as bad as comparing it to a petrol system. confuse

I have always thought that comparing some engine design done by a large team of factory engineers, to a backyard modification recommended by some forum crowd of 'experts' is a bit like flying with a forum designed plane. The ride is likely to be short and unhappy. furious I could be wrong though !! Go for it !

jaahn

-- Edited by Jaahn on Saturday 21st of November 2015 02:33:52 PM

deverall11 · Guru

Jaahn wrote:
HI
i do believe there are some people talking through their a** here.
There are basic differences between a diesel engine control system and a petrol engine control system. Diesel engines have also taken a couple of large steps over recent years, mainly to control the emissions, and to compare the older mechanical injection types to the ECU controlled ones is just as bad as comparing it to a petrol system.
I have always thought that comparing some engine design done by a large team of factory engineers, to a backyard modification recommended by some forum crowd of 'experts' is a bit like flying with a forum designed plane. The ride is likely to be short and unhappy. I could be wrong though !! Go for it !
jaahn
Jaahn. UNFORTUNATELY you seem to overlook the most important design parameter encumbered on todays engine designers, EMISSIONS. They need to meet emission requirements. Blanking the EGR valve causes greater emissions. No one is talking through their backsides perhaps this principle may apply to you.
Larry

-- Edited by Jaahn on Saturday 21st of November 2015 02:33:52 PM

Delta18 · Guru

Jaahn wrote:
HI
i do believe there are some people talking through their a** here.
I have always thought that comparing some engine design done by a large team of factory engineers, to a backyard modification recommended by some forum crowd of 'experts' is a bit like flying with a forum designed plane. The ride is likely to be short and unhappy. I could be wrong though !! Go for it !
jaahn

-- Edited by Jaahn on Saturday 21st of November 2015 02:33:52 PM

Sure, like VW engineers eh? They sorted the emission problems in their cars.

After much carbon build-up trouble in my previous car, a Triton 2.5L Diesel one of the first things I did with the new D-Max was to fit an Oil Catch-Can and also fit a Blanking Plate to ensure I did not have a repeat of those problems.

After 20,000km so far with no issues I have no regrets to the fitment.

Fuel consumption improvement? No idea, I didn't do it for that reason but I am very happy with it.

Cheers Neil

deverall11 · Guru

Delta18 wrote:
Sure, like VW engineers eh? They sorted the emission problems in their cars.
After much carbon build-up trouble in my previous car, a Triton 2.5L Diesel one of the first things I did with the new D-Max was to fit an Oil Catch-Can and also fit a Blanking Plate to ensure I did not have a repeat of those problems.
After 20,000km so far with no issues I have no regrets to the fitment.
Fuel consumption improvement? No idea, I didn't do it for that reason but I am very happy with it.
Cheers Neil

Well said. That's pretty much what I was trying to explain but just seem to know better. Another example no doubt of criticism from someone who has never experienced it but feel compelled to share their unfounded and clearly wrong opinion. A missed opportunity to keep one's mouth shut.

Larry

KevKim37 · Senior Member

If you have not seen what problems the EGR Valve can cause to an engine even when it is working correctly then start asking around the Mechanical workshops. I have seen proof of Major Carbon build up problems on the V8 Toyotas (even at 75,000kms)and have experienced it also on my 79 Series Turbo 6 cyl same engine as in the 100 series Toyota Wagon. At 45,000kms I removed the EGR Assy and Inlet manifolds and there was approx 1/16 inch of Carbon deposited around the perimeter and Length of all Manifold Tracts and even More at the EGR Assy. I have plated off the Valve Assy and on inspection 85,000kms later there is NO Carbon build up at all.

This is a Major problem with all CRD as with these engines it is nearly impossible to do this without problems and together with the Oil Blow By Gasses and the Diesel Soot this becomes a Serious problem especially with Manifolds slowly choking the engine and the Undersides of the Inlet Valves acquiring a Bad build up also causing engine performance issues. As with the Unleaded petrol in the early injected vehicles the Soft Carbon Build up under the Inlet Valve Heads caused Major problems with Cold Start running (Hesitation) and Poor Fuel economy/Performance. So this can happen also with the Diesel engines.

The other problem which will arise is that as these vehicles age and the replacement components become unavailable there is Nothing that the Authorities can do to Reprimand people if their vehicle was Tested and was Not up to the Emission Standards. As this is what happened with all earlier model vehicles ie 1980's to 2000 for example.

I also found after testing with the EGR Blanked off that on the same day running with it working, to running with it inoperable that there was a Decrease of up to 80 degrees cooler at the Turbo from 80 to 100 kmh cruising. (Exhaust Gas Temp Gauge fitted).

Cheers Kev.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Yep carbon build up is an issue with direct injection petrol engines too..
My GM turbo diesel doesn't have EGR .. I found water injection cleans carbon from cylinders etc big time ..
Some engine like Nissan 4 cyl turbo diesels ( I gues French connection ?) had issues with EGR blocking, due to tight emissions .. They melt pistons When EGR fails .. Just saying it's not all disconnect on any engine and you'll have no issues..
Falcon Au 5.0 ping like crazy if disconnected ..

patrol03 · Senior Member

I used to love the cackle of the old GM 671.No EGR crap on those little babies.Gone are the good old days AK.

Hylife · Guru

Yes there are some possibly uninformed posts originating from ones posterior, but everyone still has the right to have their say.

What really should have been posted was not whether blocking your EGR is a good or bad idea, but an explanation of what exactly the EGR is and does.

Firstly, the name is misleading, it does NOT recirculate gas from the exhaust.

No engine is 100% airtight between the combustion chamber and the crankcase. Small quantities of exhaust type gases AND air:fuel gases (depending on inlet or exhaust stroke) escape past the pistons and rings into the crankcase. On older engines these gases were simply allowed to escape to the atmosphere via some sort of crankcase breather hose or pipe, contributing to air pollution.

Modern emission standards no longer allow such wantonly irresponsible designs, so a valve and piping is fitted to syphon off these gases back into the engines air intake system.

As these gases contain a mixture of exhaust AND unburnt fuels, this has to be factored into the ECU mapping for the fuel injection system on both petrol and diesel engines. Manufacturers go to great lengths to test their vehicles for optimal power whilst still meeting emissions laws (unless you happen to be the peoples car in which case you cheat the system and market your vehicles with lies about how good they are)

If you block your EGR you not only leave these gases to build up deposits in your crankcase and oil (which is a darned sight harder to clean and possibly a lot more expensive) but you mess up the fuel mapping, which the ECU will via numerous sensors try and self correct, because the ECU thinks the mixture is now too lean, and therefore it lengthens the injector open times, resulting in marginally increased fuel consumption.

And, I still haven't mentioned how your modified vehicle is now no longer as it was when it received design approval therefore by law it can be defected and put off the road if spotted by Mr Plod or some other authorised officer.

Jaahn · Guru

Hmmm--

More informed comment cry

There are both EGR valves and PCV valves.

EGR exhaust gas recirculation.

PCV positive crankcase ventilation.

TDI diesels have a complex requirement for the latter because of the high intake pressure from the turbo. However they do both things and for different reasons also. Probably best described now as systems. The valve is not acting alone but is integrated into the overall electronic control system.

Jaahn

-- Edited by Jaahn on Thursday 26th of November 2015 06:19:12 AM

03_Troopy · Guru

Hylife wrote:
Yes there are some possibly uninformed posts originating from ones posterior, but everyone still has the right to have their say.
What really should have been posted was not whether blocking your EGR is a good or bad idea, but an explanation of what exactly the EGR is and does.
Firstly, the name is misleading, it does NOT recirculate gas from the exhaust.
No engine is 100% airtight between the combustion chamber and the crankcase. Small quantities of exhaust type gases AND air:fuel gases (depending on inlet or exhaust stroke) escape past the pistons and rings into the crankcase. On older engines these gases were simply allowed to escape to the atmosphere via some sort of crankcase breather hose or pipe, contributing to air pollution.
Modern emission standards no longer allow such wantonly irresponsible designs, so a valve and piping is fitted to syphon off these gases back into the engines air intake system.
As these gases contain a mixture of exhaust AND unburnt fuels, this has to be factored into the ECU mapping for the fuel injection system on both petrol and diesel engines. Manufacturers go to great lengths to test their vehicles for optimal power whilst still meeting emissions laws (unless you happen to be the peoples car in which case you cheat the system and market your vehicles with lies about how good they are)
If you block your EGR you not only leave these gases to build up deposits in your crankcase and oil (which is a darned sight harder to clean and possibly a lot more expensive) but you mess up the fuel mapping, which the ECU will via numerous sensors try and self correct, because the ECU thinks the mixture is now too lean, and therefore it lengthens the injector open times, resulting in marginally increased fuel consumption.

And, I still haven't mentioned how your modified vehicle is now no longer as it was when it received design approval therefore by law it can be defected and put off the road if spotted by Mr Plod or some other authorised officer.

Actually, that's exactly what the Exhaust Gas Recycle Valve does, hence the accurate name of it.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Hylife . Your getting PCV and EGR mixed up..

-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Wednesday 25th of November 2015 02:57:39 PM