Free camping

Brisand · Veteran Member

Free camping

Bruce and Bev · Guru

Hi Brian. You make valet points, BUT (haha):

1. CP owners are not forced to start or buy into this business

2. They are like any other self employed person. Imagine what Coles and Woolies do to the little independent IGAs and the like when they decide to open in a town - it puts the businessperson and all his staff (many more than a CP does) out of work

3. They need to adapt. Many have chosen to be a Big 4 type and charge a fortune and supply lots of kids entertainment, pools, mini put and often close down much of their powered and non-powered sites to build cabins which are usually more expensive than a motel or even motel (that's certainly the case in Perth, WA). I can stay in the inner city in a 4 star good class hotel for less than a cabin in a CP in the outer metro areas.

Its all about choice - they chose - they adapt, struggle (and moan a lot) or go belly up. Most have no loyality to their "permanent" campers. When a developer turns up and offers to buy their land - the campers are turfed out really quickly.

JCT · Veteran Member

Whilst I can agree with your sentiments Brian I do not agree with all of your comments.

As a retired hotelier, 50 bedrooms with restaurant and a bar, I had my personal guarantee with the bank for many years.

But what I learnt fairly quickly was to deliver what the customer wanted and not rely on increasing tariffs.

In my case it was 'heads on beds' which provided the income and I had to provide what was needed.

In a caravan park it is 'vans on sites' which provide the income.

No one gives any income guarantees in any business and it is up to the operator to make the business a success, not to rely on any form of protection from councils or from another competitor not being able to open up in a close proximity.

As it happens I mainly use caravan parks but that is my choice, and I might add that I do compare value for money when considering which park I go to. The better value ones I return to and the others I do not.

Just my opinion for what it is worth. I do not wish to give any reason for a long argument for or against individual choice.

Regards
Colin

NeilandRaine · Guru

Brisand · Veteran Member

Bruce your comments are exactly what I was referring to, caravan parks all start off as small businesses, and build up over many years, some survive, some go broke, but they all tried their best, I would assume from your comments that you have never run a business.

Every small business that starts up, finds the owners working for less than your wages and many more hours than you would have worked, so don't have a go at those who took the risk and succeeded

Casualkev · Senior Member

What a load of rot Brisand you have no idea if a CP operator has tried their best or indeed made good business choices!

Kev

kesue · Senior Member

Brisand I agree with you completely, I always used caravan parks and most operators tried there best to please, after all it is there living and there money at stake.I also got fed up listening to whinging, complaining free campers. Get over it we don't owe you a free site, and when you have moved on someone (ratepayers) has to pay the council to clean up the site. Just my thoughts Keith

jules47 · The Happy Helper

Friends have owned a couple of caravan parks. The first they went into was fairly run down, with a lot of permanents, some not very desirable as tenants. Took a while to sort that out, and then more money and time spent on improving the place - i.e. all power outlets had to be replaced on sites - wires hanging loose, some covered with plastic bags to keep moisture out, and on it went. There were some good things about the place, position, a new ablutions block, plenty of room, and a good house to live in.

They worked it for several years, in the latter years with their daughter and her husband, more infrastructure was put in, new camp kitchen, inground pool, etc.

They charged the same rate all year round, and it became a very popular park with travellers. When they sold, they were telling the new owners of the plans they had, but they were too old to borrow the money needed. The new owners have implemented these plans, making it one of the most popular parks in the area.

They then again worked at a park with their daughter and son in law, improving a park, but the work was just too much for them - it was a huge park, with a big influx of people (most of whom had vans there year round), and lots of cabins which needed cleaning.

They then purchased a small park, on a leasehold, which again they have done up, and improved, which they have now sold at a good profit.

They knew what they were getting into when they purchased the first park, and had brains enough to always keep their fees at a reasonable level.

What I am saying is, most people go into a business with their eyes open, thoroughly research the market, and offer what people want. They make a success of the business, the occasional one fails, sure, but that happens in all businesses.

Caravan parks need to listen to the travelling public - have their swimming pools, jumping castles etc., for the families, maybe some lower cost sites for people who just want a spot to stay, and some land for self contained RV's, who just want a safe spot to stay, a dump point and water, for a minimal cost per night.
I have been to one caravan park in Tassie like this, but they charged $12 for the RV sites, and you could use the amenities. For say, $5, no amenities, except for dump point and water.

And, yes, I have owned a business.

Baz421 · Guru

JCT wrote:
Whilst I can agree with your sentiments Brian I do not agree with all of your comments.

As a retired hotelier, 50 bedrooms with restaurant and a bar, I had my personal guarantee with the bank for many years.

But what I learnt fairly quickly was to deliver what the customer wanted and not rely on increasing tariffs.

In my case it was 'heads on beds' which provided the income and I had to provide what was needed.

In a caravan park it is 'vans on sites' which provide the income.

No one gives any income guarantees in any business and it is up to the operator to make the business a success, not to rely on any form of protection from councils or from another competitor not being able to open up in a close proximity.

As it happens I mainly use caravan parks but that is my choice, and I might add that I do compare value for money when considering which park I go to. The better value ones I return to and the others I do not.

Just my opinion for what it is worth. I do not wish to give any reason for a long argument for or against individual choice.

Regards
Colin

Top post Colin. I too have owned business and we make or break ourselves to a large extent. I came up against Coles/woollies in one business - not pleasant.

However we free camp where possible and spend the equivalent of the CP $ in the small towns as we go, ie we spread it around. We often pay a small premium when supporting small towns, so be it OUR CHOICE.

I'm not sympathetic to CP owners who don't provide value for money.

GarrynLyn · Senior Member

We can't afford to stay in van parks all the time so bush camp between towns when we can. If we want to stay in a particular town for a couple of nights to stock up and see the local sights, we stay in a van park, BUT only if they are affordable and not over the top with prices.

nimrod · Veteran Member

just my five eggs worth. I have my own business and the only way I stay in business is by giving customers what they want. If people are not staying in caravan parks one can only wonder why!

The Phantom · Guru

My 2 bob's worth.

Buy $60k caravan + $50k car + $2k roo bar + $1k spotties (never used as always parked up by 3pm) + another $10k in superfluous crap that will never be used (includes generator).

Outcome = $123k to get on the road = no money left for a caravan park.

Result = get on Grey Nomads and bag the crap out of caravan parks so you can justify staying in free camps.

The Phantom

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

The point is you've set your van or motorhome up to live in .. Why should I pay more than I did on my mortgage to stay there?
I don't use much of there facilities other than water.. The prices they charge I could buy water in bottles at Aldi and still be better off..
Yes I have run an dairy farm, elect business and realestate .. It's about value for money.. I guess it's like Betta cord and Kodak Ford / Holden if you don't supply the goods at the right price .. Don't complain ..

Desert Dweller · Guru

Our only reason for travelling is to do nature photography. All the birds & animals are out in the bush. There's nothing of interest in a town CP. Camping out in the bush (State Forests) happens to cost nothing. We don't camp out there because it's free
Therefore we could be called ''free campers''. We stay at a small community CP every 7-10 days to do the washing, top up our water tanks, do some shopping, refuel & have a meal at the local Pub. So we do put money into the towns that we visit. Never stayed at a Big 4 or Top Tourist Park ever.

Izabarack · Guru

Might be good for CP owners to put themselves in the place of the other business owners in their area. In their selfish wants to get the travelling money before anyone else, they make it difficult for others to make a living. CP operators should play by the same rules that apply to every other business; offer what the customers want, for a fair price. Very, very few CPs offer what I want so I look to camp elsewhere. If that is a free camp, that's just how it is, not any desire to take business away from any CP operator.

Iza

reglynn · Guru

C/p owners complain about people on a limited expense account free camping.

What the town gets from people that free camp in their town is our money spent in there shops and sometimes employ more staff at causal times.

If we stayed full time in some c/p there would be no money spent in these shops.

G/ns and people who free camp, at times do bring in more money to a town than a c/p owner would spend in same town.

Trials have been done and proven that towns that close the free camps lose, and towns that welcomes the free camps do improve their community.

Do motel owners complain about c/ps putting cabins in which takes their trade.

Cheers reg

Cowboy7307 · Senior Member

I have never free camped as yet ,we are setting our van to do it, but that will be in SA on my daughters farm
so we have always stayed in C/P ,what gets me is C/P charging like a wounded bull then still charge you to use the showers
Then on the other hand i get sick of free campers saying if we don't stay in free camps we will not spend money in your town, you have to spend it some where, not your right to have a ratepayers subsidy some one has to pay for it,
Would you like me to come camp on your garden

Mimfilip · Newbie

After managing a caravan park for 13 years, we have a rule, if its got a boom gate, we don't stay. Chances are that they have a jumping castle also!!!

Phil C · Guru

Wow, can open, worms everywhere. I think we have the best solution in the way we travel.

3 nights at a free camp and then one night at a CP.

Works for us
Cheers

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Mmmmm, what about the other 3 nights in the week mate???

Phil C · Guru

G'day mate, the other 3 nights start the cycle again so every 4th night we are at a CP. charges the batts, empty the pooh box, nice long shower and fill up the tanks.

Works well for us

hope you are well Doug.

Bruce and Bev · Guru

Hi Briand. Another big assumption on your part !

I have owned 5 businesses - two had yearly turnovers of excess of $2M+. All of them made us good profit. Why?? Because we either bought an existing business we knew or thought we would be good at and enjoy, prepared to work 7 days a week, always smile and be friendly and sell or provide the service customers and clients wanted. Our businesses varied from a number of retail shops (some large and others small) to one that employed almost 40 full-time staff.

And I suggest you have another read of my first post - I don't have a problem with successful CP owners - I just don't want to pay for more than what I need. Otherwise I would tow my van with a Bentley lol

TommyG · Senior Member

Cowboy7307 wrote:
I have never free camped as yet ,we are setting our van to do it, but that will be in SA on my daughters farm
so we have always stayed in C/P ,what gets me is C/P charging like a wounded bull then still charge you to use the showers
Then on the other hand i get sick of free campers saying if we don't stay in free camps we will not spend money in your town, you have to spend it some where, not your right to have a ratepayers subsidy some one has to pay for it,
Would you like me to come camp on your garden

Would you like me to come camp on your garden

You can come and park in mine if you are a friend.

Do you realise that under the new WA legislations that if there are two or more RVs at a private residence its necessary to get a permit, because its called an event, even if the people from the second vehicle stay in the house and do not use the second RV.

Im talking about 1 day or more not three days because the three day thing is not for what is deemed as an event but 2 such vehicles staying at a private residence is an event.

This is a requirement put up by the CP assn and will probably be adopted by the WA Govt.

Can you imagine friends from afar arriving at your place as they travel through your area dropping in for a couple of days and you having to get permission from council for them to park in your driveway. How long do think it would take to get the permission and at what cost? It means it would be cheaper or easier for them to stay at the nearest CP, that might be 50Km away for all that matters.

Yes my wife and I did run a very competitive fast food mobile van for 15 years, the most successful one in the region because our prices where fair, service and product the very best we could provide.

We had a local Govt licence paid local fees and were subject to local Govt rules but we were not protected from Perth based vans coming into the area, they didnt pay local fees nor did they need local Govt permission.

-- Edited by Webmaster on Sunday 25th of October 2015 01:53:39 PM

Izabarack · Guru

Cowboy7307 wrote:
.... not your right to have a ratepayers subsidy some one has to pay for it,

Ratepayers pay for a lot of things; including parks and gardens and public toots and a lot of other stuff. One thing ratepayers want their Local Government (Council) to do, is to bring people and visitors and money to their community. Flourishing businesses provide employment and economic turnover in their communities, to the benefit of all. A flourishing community or town usually has improving property values, a specific benefit for ratepayers. When CP operators put people off coming to a community or town, they hurt everyone in the town.

Iza

Bugsy · Veteran Member

Brisand, as a retired business man of around 40 years can you give me one good reason why the caravan park industry should be protected by the erection of signs, council regulations etc etc while no other business is afforded similar protection. In my 40 years nobody ever put a sign up saying in this town you must spend your money with me. Business is all about doing due diligence and investing your hard earned money into what you believe is a money earner, no guarantees, that is why many businesses fail in the first couple of years. Circumstances change, times change, trends change and you adapt or die.

Here is a classic example of what I mean www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-23/porongurup-campsite-owner-says-free-rv-sites-hurt/6879984 Two Year ago he had enought capital and presumingly the due dilligence to invest $800,000 into this park. In that time no new freedom camps have opened but now he claims they are hurting his business, one he is complaining about is over 50k away. If you had that sort of cash (or the ability to borrow it) would you invest it without proper investigation. Freedom camping was or should have been part of the due diligence.

We hear often of pleas of the industry that no camps should be allowed within 20k of a CP but we never hear anybody claim a CP cannot install cabins within 20k of a motel.

Sorry but I think your claims and assumptions are way off the mark.

TommyG · Senior Member

Bugsy - Absolutely correct. Izabarack post also and all this crap about ratepayers having to foot the bill is rubbish.
We live in a town that is inundated with tourist right through the summer months, many are day trippers that come and use the boat ramps and public facilities, they don't pay rates here but probably do where they live. We don't pay rates when we tour the eastern states and do not expect tourists to our city to do so either. Public areas are just that, they are always maintained by the local govt. Work out the cost of it on your rates, it's negligible. The people who believe this rubbish will want people passing through at night to help pay for street lighting next.

done dreaming · Senior Member

Park owners did not think about motel and hotel owners when they filled up their parks with cabins to take business from these owners.

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Mmmmm, my braves seem to think 'Brisand' is a CVP owner.

Philw · Senior Member

Agree dundreaming. Its a free enterprise society. Cp's seem to want laws to protect their business. So should there be laws to protect motel owners from caravan parks. So no caravan park with cabins within 50 ks of a motel as they will hurt the hard working business owner of the motel. Also ban public BBQs in parks if there is a fast food outlet nearby. That little family is free cooking when they should be supporting the local fast food outlet. What about getting rid of public boat ramps when there is a hire boat business near. No more free boating.

What other industry should we enact laws so as to protect them from the free loaders. I got it. No more public walking as we should be spending money on the taxi industry. So lets ban free walking. You bludging penny pinching free walkers. I am going to start a petition to send to every state and territory to get free walking banned. Whose with me. Shame file. Shane shame.

Geese louise. This arguement is a joke. WE ARE NOT FREE CAMPING. We are spending money in these communities just like those of us do when we choose to spend money staying in the caravan park. All that is happening is that the cp lobby is getting an awful lot of the motor home and caravanning people offside and losing the one thing any business owner values above all else. Good will.

how chief doug. As in pow wow. The greeting not the question. smile

Brisand · Veteran Member

Bruce, by the sound of it, you must have been a successful businessman, most of us business persons might own maybe a couple. FIVE BUSINESSES !

I am a caravaner of over forty years and the last ten as a retiree, I have free camped, but not around a town, but simply because it suited us at the time.

Free camping at special sites cannot be beaten, but don't knock other persons who opt to provide a service to those who wish the park life with the facilities provided.

-- Edited by Brisand on Sunday 25th of October 2015 09:33:18 PM