Visiting Perth & Staying with Family or Friends in your Van ?, Check the Bylaws first

madaboutled · Guru

Visiting Perth & Staying with Family or Friends in your Van ?, Check the Bylaws first

Happywanderer · The Master

How ridiculous is that. You can live in your "caravan" 365 days a year as long as it's not in your sisters back yard.
I would be moving on too. The cyclone season will be well over by the time you get up there.

KFT · Guru

A very good reason to live in a rural area where the "neighbor" is a long way away.

elliemike · Guru

I can see why they have that sort of ruling in suburban housing areas.

madaboutled · Guru

KFT wrote:
A very good reason to live in a rural area where the "neighbor" is a long way away.

I'd like to arrange for the "neighbour" to be a long way away.

madaboutled · Guru

elliemike wrote:
I can see why they have that sort of ruling in suburban housing areas.

We asked the council for a copy of the Bylaws or a web address and in particular this one regarding "living in caravans" answer was "sorry, can't give that to you". Make of that what you will.

Izabarack · Guru

madaboutled wrote:
We asked the council for a copy of the Bylaws or a web address and in particular this one regarding "living in caravans" answer was "sorry, can't give that to you". Make of that what you will.

Total BS. I suggest you contact the local councillor and put him or her to doing their job. If there is no local law forbidding sleeping in your vehicle, on residential land, then whoever you spoke to is having you on. There must be a specific law against a particular practice before any fine can be issued. The "cannot give it to you" is simply an indication that no law covering the situation is in place. Someone is hoping they can bluff you into moving on and getting the nasty neighbour off their back.

Had a bit of experience with this. When we visit friends in a semi-country town, we park the van on the street, visit in the house all day and sleep in the van, only. Long talk with the local ranger person clarified lots. Local laws vary but any ranger type or council worker cannot issue a fine without the backing of existing paperwork, like, "living in a van is defined by......"

Iza

brickies · Guru

I check this out with the Brisbane City council about 5 years ago ree parking a Caravan in my children back yard , And was told it is legal has long has you have access to amenities eg Toilet . This now may has changed but if there is a law in WA I would think they would have to give you a copy of the by law , I think the advice to talk to the local Councillor would be the best move .

Pam · Guru

Have you googled Perth bylaws? A list comes up but there are different regions. Might be worth a browse.

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Oh dear, didn't I see some dog doodoo on the neighbours front step??

I agree with Iza, get the local councillor on the job instead of sitting on his or her bum eating gourmet sangas and drinking expensive coffee at some ridiculous sub committe meeting planning when the next meeting will be, AT YOUR SISTERS EXPENCE.

Bruce and Bev · Guru

the fact that they cant or wont give you a copy or refer you to a copy of the supposed relevant by-law is telling. There is either no such bylaw, the Council is not doing is job by disclosing public information when asked (as in this case), or the bylaw is flawed so they are trying to scare you away.

There is a State Minister for local councils with his body of well paid public servants and an association of local councils. The chairman of the association is Mayor Pickard from Joondalup City. I would be contacting both to get your tin pot council to provide you the info so that you can visit your sister in future and raise the victory finger at her neighbour

the rocket · Guru

Under Freedom of information you would be able to get a copy of the letter of complaint. I would write a letter to the mayor and ask for him/her to send you a copy of the law pertaining to this and I would hand deliver it and while I was at the council I would ask for a copy of this from the front desk and if the front desk can't find it I would request there supervisor find it and I would not leave until someone gave me a copy of it. Because until you read it yourself, you do not know what "the rules are". Get everything in WRITING ALWAYS. Keep us in the loop regards the outcome. Good luck. Hope the neighbour moves.

-- Edited by the rocket on Saturday 28th of March 2015 10:41:42 AM

madaboutled · Guru

Thanks for the replies & support I will keep you posted on more as we progress. Ironically we have to do some rust repairs on the Motorhome under the windscreen, we've booked it in to a panel beater for Monday and he'll have it for 2 to 3 days. That may give us some time to follow this up, my sister doesn't really have the space in her house to accomodate us so we've had to arrange staying with my parents who live in retirement units, staying with them is OK but a bit difficult with the dog. Spoke to the management at the complex and they have given us permission to stay with the dog. When she saw Ziggy she said "that's not a dog.... I was expecting something much bigger.... lap dogs are very welcome here!.".

This will be OK whilst we carry out the repairs, but there's no parking space here for the Motorhome once these repairs are done, added to that we were going to have a full service done before we leave and there's a couple of things need doing that may delay us again.

I was searching (again) for info on the bylaws for the City of Swan, found one document but nothing in it about caravans on residential property, so as others have said perhaps a scare tactic to get us to move on to appease the nosey neighbour.

A bit off topic, but came across this story and just glad we're not looking at a caravan park, you won't believe the prices quoted here. The story is about 3 years old but friends who are renting say not much has changed. http://www.perthnow.com.au/business/wa-families-forced-to-live-in-tents/story-e6frg2ru-1226353723353

deverall11 · Guru

It is yet another example of backwards thinking. Why should this a**hole of a neighbour be given preferential treatment over you. Real shame, something westies do extremely well, somethings they do extremely bad. This is the latter.
How can they fine you if they are not prepared to let you see the law in question?
Larry

Hylda&Jon · Guru

Wouldn't the council have to come around at night and catch you actually sleeping in the caravan/moterhome to enforce this law?

Cupie · Guru

Good neighbours really make a difference.

We have relos in WA at Mandura on the Murray Lakes canals.

Last time we were there we put our van in the yard but lived in their house.

A neighbour who only visits there occasionally saw the van & came over to invite us to stay in their house for the duration of our stay. They thought that we were sleeping in the van & rather than leave their very swish & modern 2 story house on the canal vacant, it would be better to have us occupying it free of charge.

Bit of a difference hey?

TechnoGypsy · Veteran Member

Wow - this attitude by that council is lousy. (and the mongrel neighbour)

Thank goodness sanity prevails in most other suburbs in Perth. What would happen if this was commonplace ?

I'm thinking of all the vans I see parked up in properties - being used as a spare bedroom for teenage children still living at home. Places that don't have room for extensions or granny flats but can squeeze a small van in as an extra room.

Stick you your guns = I wouldn't be moving until I saw the "bylaw". If I had enough space you could come and park it here.

and Karma is a great thing = the mongrel neighbour will get what's overdue to him.

(and Dougwe - I do like the suggestion re - the front step)

elliemike · Guru

Has the neighbour in question actually spoken to your relative, or been asked if they have a problem with the rig being on the property ?

It might not be them that has raised the complaint. Do you know for sure it was this neighbour.

In New Zealand years ago I had a friend park a Truck House on my back garden for a month while he helped me do a job. This was a M/H with a wood and coal stove in it. Wife and two young children. I just asked all my (3 fence) neighbours if it was OK. No problems.

I seem to remember then that there were By Laws in place prohibiting long term stays in Mobile accommodation on suburban gardens. Also even in our local C/P you had to move on after three months.

madaboutled · Guru

elliemike wrote:
Has the neighbour in question actually spoken to your relative, or been asked if they have a problem with the rig being on the property ?
It might not be them that has raised the complaint. Do you know for sure it was this neighbour.
In New Zealand years ago I had a friend park a Truck House on my back garden for a month while he helped me do a job. This was a M/H with a wood and coal stove in it. Wife and two young children. I just asked all my (3 fence) neighbours if it was OK. No problems.
I seem to remember then that there were By Laws in place prohibiting long term stays in Mobile accommodation on suburban gardens. Also even in our local C/P you had to move on after three months.

The council person told us the complaints (plural) originated from one of the neigbours, but, wouldn't say who. My sister gets on with all the neighbours bar 1, and that just happens to be the one where the Motorhome is nearest to. Another neighbour told us that Mr Nosey approched them for support in his complaint, but he told him to "get a life" but summerised that in two other words, I'll leave those words up to your own imagination cause can't use the first one here.

Apparently Mr Nosey is not very well liked and all the neighbours around him have indicated thet they will be glad when he sells his house and moves. Also Mr Nosey is not approchable, I tried but when I approched him nicely and before even saying a word he said "I've got nothing to say" and briskly walked into his house, closing the door.

So, real easy to know who for sure now. My sister has spoken to all the other neighbours, all of which have said "no problem".

banjo · Senior Member

Living in WA ourselves we also came across this bylaw, at one time you could buy a block of land and sit happily on it in a shed or RV, not anymore. (rural shires may be different)

As for the bylaw I think you will find it precludes living in the van or motor home full time for more than 72hours.

Now so long as you were using the home as a base and only using the van as your "storage" while there, you would be fine, the onus would be on the council to prove it otherwise.

I wouldn't worry too much, have a bedroom set up in the house as your "temporary accommodation" and do a bit of stealth camping there. If the worst happens then they would first have to knock on the door and ask for entry, which your sister would refuse till a more convenient time, when it would be obvious you are actually sleeping in the house, nod nod wink wink.

Unless they actually knocked you up in the van in the night, they would have a hard job a proving anything in law.

I think they are just using scare tactics, which appear to be working.

Having said all that as my first sentence says there is a bylaw for this, it's just how the local council decide to police it, they have had a compliant so they followed it up.
If you sleep in the house there is no problem.

elliemike · Guru

I would guess this 72 hour thing is in response to the "Hotel Holden" situation that can occur in some areas. Remember the Midland Aboriginal Camp that created so many problem years ago.

madaboutled · Guru

The Motor home is going to the panel shop tomorrow morning for a few days and after that to a mechanic for a service and minor repair so that will kill another couple of days. After that we'll head down to Mandurah to see a couple of friends and family so that will take care of another week or so, then we'll only have another week or so to kill, so we'll come back here and we'll "sleep in the house" (in slealth mode). We leave around the 20th April, so a couple of days before that we'll move back into the MH, cause it's a new month and I feel we'll need to take advantage of the allowed 3 days.

So, thanks to all for your support and suggestions, we're still going to follow up with the council re the bylaw and "use" definition. I'll update this post if/when new info comes to light so next time we visit we won't have this issue. Maybe by then my sister will have moved, she likes the idea of a rual setting just needs to win lotto first.

Thanks again, Regards Steve.

-- Edited by madaboutled on Sunday 29th of March 2015 04:12:51 PM

Phillipn · Guru

In Brisbane a few years ago, a guy had an A*** H*** neighbour with had a nice lawn. The guy made ice cubes with roundup and threw them on his lawn at night. After a few days they had a spotted lawn, The neighbour then spent a fortune spraying the lawn to get rid of the lawn grubs.

The things unfriendly neighbours get up to. Pays to not upset people.

brickies · Guru

Never stir up a rat bag just makes them worse , Be nice to them they can't handle that

Lightgatherer · Member

Hi all,
Totally agree with all comments,but i suggest that people read page 15 of Camps 7 under general comments.
You can camp for 3 days on private property.If staying longer you have to seek permission from the local government authority.
Stay safe and enjoy life.
steve.

Bruce and Bev · Guru

Hi Steve. The sentence in the Camps book about 3 days is total rubbish and they shouldn't publish it and confuse people.

Each council and shire have varying bylaws on all things in their area of control, including "camping" (and they have to prove it by having someone sit outside your property 24/7 if you choose to pay any fine they try out) on private property.

Many of the bylaws get cancelled when someone challenges them in a Court or the States Minister of Local Govts directs them to cancel them because they are obviously in breach.

Never assume bylaws have been written by skilled lawyers who have years of experience in this sort of thing. Most are drawn up by a Councillor, agreed at a council meeting and then written up by the Councils CEO and his numerous Directors of obscure depts. They never are run past a skilled lawyer, let alone the local chemist lol

woolman · Guru

As a past councillor in WA I can say it is very difficult for council to ignore an issue when there is a complaint. Saying that having the same issue arise I believe the wording is "living" in a caravan/motor home/shed etc. To be living you must be washing and cooking (my recollection). It would be very difficult to determine sleeping in a van as using. Different councils have different time you can live in a van. If it was not OK to sleep in a van what happens if you fall asleep in the chair by the pool 4 days in a row.

I believe you need to talk to CEO and determine their definition of "using". (You could be "using" you motor home to lean a ladder against which would not be illegal.)

If the wording is "living" then you need the definition of "living".

If you are patient you will find the definition of use and living in the Local Government regulations, somewhere in the 1800 pages of this area. I did skim through at one stage and every thing is defined.

Hope that helps

PM me if I can help anymore.

Neil

NandK · Newbie

When I parked up in front of my house (not on verge) I rang the council told them I was going to be living in it for a while and was told
it was ok as long as the neighbours did not complain.
Pays to have good neighbours.

Peter1059 · Senior Member

Please name the Council.... these guys wield to much power and need to be shamed not because of the By- Laws but their interpretation of the laws by council officers etc.

Weevil · Guru

banjo wrote:

Snip.....If the worst happens then they would first have to knock on the door and ask for entry, which your sister would refuse till a more convenient time, when it would be obvious you are actually sleeping in the house, nod nod wink wink....snip...

Banjo, I could be wrong if so I stand corrected. I think under the health regulations of councils they can demand entry to your home at any time (and do it) and unlike the police do not need a search warrant.
Perhaps those with more knowledge of Council regs or State Health regs could comment on this...