Hi guys. With all the talk on different forums, I became paranoid and decided to have our Espernace weighed for piece of my mind. Imagine my Suprise when I was informed that the motorhome weighs 4480kgs with bullbar, tow bar, generator, 2 solar panels, auto satelite and only basic crockery and cutlery. No clothing or food and no one onboard the vehicle. Also the fuel tank only 1/4 full and no water in the tank In essence I have been breaking the law and been overweight since the day we took delivery of the motorhome. As soon as I get into the drivers seat it's illegal to move it on a public roadway. My question is: how do these companies sell vehicle that cannot be driven legally on a car licence? I am fortunate that I kept my truck licences, and am in the process of upgrading the weight of the motorhome, at added registration and insurance costs. Please make sure you are legal. Cheers, Laurie.
Hi Laurie .Many years ago I did the same ,fortunately that it was a one way trip from Melb to a caravan park in Moama to be placed on site for good. It was soooo overweight .However my last two vans have gone straight to the weighbridge from the showroom to be checked and fortunately both were spot on. Hind sight is a wonderful thing isn,t it .Cheers John
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Westy. Some people I know are like slinkies. They look really funny when you push them downstairs !
It makes you wonder how many of the Motorhomes, Caravans out there in the playground. are actually legal. I have a friend with a Hino who drives around on a car licence when I am sure his vehicle is over the 4500Kg limit. It was overweight before he even finished building it. The extras like water fuel etc would have pushed him well past the limit. How many others are there?
I am also mystified how Caravan manufacturers can change the ATM of a caravan by just changing the plate? I just cannot see how sending out a new plate makes the Caravan comply. Am I missing something here? Surely if it has been built to comply to a weight limit a new plate would mean what exactly?
Yep, know the feeling well. I did the same thing a couple of weeks back and was shocked that I was 160kg over the ATM. Now trying to work out what I can do to reduce weight. I think it will be just as hard as me loosing weight, no, not 160kg.
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there was a post on this same subject about a week ago............same issues. Many caravans go straight over the ATM when the water tanks and gas cylinders are filled even before you put food and clothing inside.
Upgrading the ATM is not just a matter of the manufacturer sending out a new VIN plate (with new ATM weight on it). In WA, for example, you have to have the 'van weighed and then fully inspected by Dept of Transport or one of their agents. If you pass - and they check brakes, tow chains and shackles for compliance - you then shell out almost $200 and they will change the rego details in their computer system. Each State varies, but Im not aware of any that will simply allow you to screw on a new VIN plate without their DOT changing the rego details (also important for insurance purposes)
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Cheers Bruce
The amazing things you see when nomading Australia
Yuglamron re (I am also mystified how Caravan manufacturers can change the ATM of a caravan by just changing the plate? I just cannot see how sending out a new plate makes the Caravan comply. Am I missing something here? Surely if it has been built to comply to a weight limit a new plate would mean what exactly?)
My understanding is that the caravan chassis manufacturers make a chassis to carry say 3300Kg on the wheels/tyres/ bearings/springs/axles etc etc called the GTM of the chassis ( chassis GTM plates sometimes fixed on the inside of the A frame). The Caravan manufacturer then builds the caravan that say has a Tare of say 2600Kg and the van manufacturer then sets a payload of say 400Kg with and ATM of 3000Kg. To me the ATM set by the manufacturer is generally 300 or 400Kg below the Chassis GTM.
A qualified engineer ( or manufacturer) after inspection of the Tug, van/chassis/hitch/tyres/ wheels etc etc etc can at his discretion increase the ATM of the van to 3300kg +10% for the weight of the van on the towball of the tug, providing the tug can meet the towball weight and revised ATM of up to 3630Kg. In SA not only do you pay the engineer, its a Transport department checkout as well with associated fees
Note I am not an engineer this is my understanding of how it is carried out.
And as Bruce mentioned above the Engineer will require a new Tare weight certificate from an authorised Weigh Bridge ( in SA)
Peter
-- Edited by PeterInSa on Tuesday 24th of March 2015 11:37:03 PM
Tow ball weight. As a newby, please excuse my relative ignorance! I have a new Y62 V8 Patrol so no problem with the real 3.5 tonne towing capacity and 350 kg towball weight max.
I have a max GVM 3.5 tonne Retreat caravan being built to desired off road specs.
I understand that the tow ball weight must be added to the tow vehicle's GVM and hence this reduces the tow vehicle's load carrying capacity by this much.
My question is, as the actual towball weight, exerted by the loaded caravan, will increase or decrease, according to your caravan loading (e.g. weight plus load distribution) am I correct in assuming that you can increase or decrease this towball weight (but not the caravan's GVM) according to how you load the caravan (within reason of course as I have no intention of allowing the tow hitch to point into outer space).
Just trying to get my head around all of this as after talking to zillions of caravan dealers and suppliers etc. I get the impression that some people have absolutely no idea about the implications of these weights and their legal impact on towing.
I see lots of small tow vehicles on the road towing 3.5 tonne vans that could not possibly be within their legal limits unless they have empty fuel tanks or have no driver or passengers!
Interested in learning from real world experiences but not criticism.
Cheers.
David
-- Edited by Pradokakadudavid on Thursday 27th of June 2019 06:01:33 PM
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Nissan Patrol TIL and highly modified Retreat Fraser full offroad version
Tow ball weight. As a newby, please excuse my relative ignorance! I have a new Y62 V8 Patrol so no problem with the real 3.5 tonne towing capacity and 350 kg towball weight max. I have a max GVM 3.5 tonne Retreat caravan being built to desired off road specs. I understand that the tow ball weight must be added to the tow vehicle's GVM and hence this reduces the tow vehicle's load carrying capacity by this much. My question is, as the actual towball weight, exerted by the loaded caravan, will increase or decrease, according to your caravan loading (e.g. weight plus load distribution) am I correct in assuming that you can increase or decrease this towball weight (but not the caravan's GVM) according to how you load the caravan (within reason of course as I have no intention of allowing the tow hitch to point into outer space). Just trying to get my head around all of this as after talking to zillions of caravan dealers and suppliers etc. I get the impression that some people have absolutely no idea about the implications of these weights and their legal impact on towing.
I see lots of small tow vehicles on the road towing 3.5 tonne vans that could not possibly be within their legal limits unless they have empty fuel tanks or have no driver or passengers! Interested in learning from real world experiences but not criticism.
Cheers.David
-- Edited by Pradokakadudavid on Thursday 27th of June 2019 06:01:33 PM
Hi David....How the caravan is loaded,and where the weight is placed,obviously has an effect on towball weight.If you go to the trouble of checking your ball weight,using the bathroom scales method,with various load distributions,you soon will learn how to keep your towball weight constant.As an aside,you should know about the Y62s towing and loading capacities. . 1) As soon as your towball weight exceeds 300kg,the max GVM of your car is reduced by 130kg,to 3370kg.2) Tare is 2735kg (+/-),so if you tow a 3500kg van,you can carry only 635kg in the car. (3370kg GVM minus 2735kg Tare). 3) Rear axle of car is rated at only 2030kg.....a 350kg towball weight puts around 500kg EXTRA onto the rear axle of the car.A WDH increases your TBO (Towball overhang,or distance from rear axle to hitch point) and puts even more weight on your rear axle.(Think LEVERAGE). A McHitch makes a bad situation even worse by further increasing your TBO,as well as increasing instability of the whole unit.4)With 350kg towball weight,the absolute maximum your outfit can weigh is 6520kg....3370kg GVM of car,plus 3150kg ATM.(aggregate trailed mass,or weight on trailer wheels). 5) If you intend to tow off road,it is a good idea to put extra welding on your coil mounts.6) The rear spring mounts are weak,I have been told,and have been known to bend up to the floor,busting the brakes and bending the floor.They are a beautiful car,but you can NEVER get anywhere near the 7000kg GCM unless you tow a Dog Trailer,with the associated near zero towball weight. Cheers.
Sorry that the text is all over the show,but computers and I are not good mates!
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 27th of June 2019 06:49:33 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 27th of June 2019 06:52:01 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 27th of June 2019 06:56:00 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 27th of June 2019 06:57:03 PM
Yes obviously the point is to have the tow ball weight as low as possible and yes I have added the Alko Outback extreme suspension so think this will be tough enough to handle some gravel.
I will be trying to keep the GVM of van and car as low as possible but one wonders what on earth you have to buy to pull a 3.5 tonne GVM caravan.
By some of these stats only a Leopard tank or Haulpack would pass the test.
How on earth are all the dinky toys coping with these kinds of weights.
So now I find myself having bought a substantial vehicle for the tow vehicle and still have to trim significant weight to be feasible.
I thought it would be as easy as 3.5 tonne tow capacity + 3.5 tonne caravan GVM = 7000 tonne GCM which is what it is specified to carry.
Whilst these weights are purely theoretical in practise, if my 300kw V8 Patrol can't tow it then what on earth can!!!!
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Nissan Patrol TIL and highly modified Retreat Fraser full offroad version
Are you sure you have not deducted the tow ball weight from the car and caravan hence twice.
I am not clear on how the tow ball weight should be added to the ATM or GVM of the caravan as obviously all the weights contributing to the GVM of the caravan have already been taken into account.
I thought the tow ball weight came off the GVM of the tow vehicle?
My notes say the ATM does not include the tow ball weight (other than the load in the caravan itself.
Please clarify.
Thanks.
David
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Nissan Patrol TIL and highly modified Retreat Fraser full offroad version
Are you sure you have not deducted the tow ball weight from the car and caravan hence twice.
I am not clear on how the tow ball weight should be added to the ATM or GVM of the caravan as obviously all the weights contributing to the GVM of the caravan have already been taken into account.
I thought the tow ball weight came off the GVM of the tow vehicle?
My notes say the ATM does not include the tow ball weight (other than the load in the caravan itself.
Please clarify.
Thanks.
David
ATM is weight on van wheels plus weight on towball.(Or jockey wheel).GTM (Gross trailed mass) is weight on van wheels only.When van is connected to the car,the TBM (Towball mass) becomes part of the car's GVM.You may be confused by the Y62s peculiarity of losing 130kg from car GVM as soon as ball weight is over 300kg? As I said earlier,if you hook a 3500kg van,with 10% towball weight,to your fully loaded car,you have GTM (weight on van wheels) of 3150kg behind a car with GVM (Weight on wheels) of 3370kg,including towball weight. (Remember you lose 130kg from your max GVM if towball is over 300kg).You can see that 3370kg + 3150kg gives GCM (Gross combination mass,or total weight) of 6520kg.Of concern for you is that your car has a rear axle rated at only 2030kg,but at least you are better off than those that have bought the mighty Dodge Ram 1500 with its massive 4500kg tow capacity....yeah,right! With a 1770kg rear axle,that car would struggle to tow anything more than a 3000kg van even if you had NOTHING in the tray..Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 28th of June 2019 02:59:03 AM
Yes obviously the point is to have the tow ball weight as low as possible and yes I have added the Alko Outback extreme suspension so think this will be tough enough to handle some gravel.
I will be trying to keep the GVM of van and car as low as possible but one wonders what on earth you have to buy to pull a 3.5 tonne GVM caravan.
By some of these stats only a Leopard tank or Haulpack would pass the test.
How on earth are all the dinky toys coping with these kinds of weights.
So now I find myself having bought a substantial vehicle for the tow vehicle and still have to trim significant weight to be feasible.
I thought it would be as easy as 3.5 tonne tow capacity + 3.5 tonne caravan GVM = 7000 tonne GCM which is what it is specified to carry.
Whilst these weights are purely theoretical in practise, if my 300kw V8 Patrol can't tow it then what on earth can!!!!
Seems you are starting to understand your weights! There is no way known that the popular 6000kg GCM twin-cabs (Dinky Toys?) can SAFELY tow 3500kg....NO WAY. Cheers
P.S Landcruiser 79 can tow 3500kg van,legal on all axles,and still be heavier than the van it is towing.For safety,the car should be 10% heavier than the van.....think tail wagging the Dog.
P.P.S Are you based anywhere near Brisbane?
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 28th of June 2019 02:53:23 AM
