Batteries and Math's.

SnowT · Guru

Batteries and Math's.

beiffe · Guru

Did you get your xmas presents at the army disposal store.
I hear they are doing specials on flack jackets and hard hats.
You are gong to need them mate.
Regards
Brian

dorian · Guru

SnowT wrote:
Will I tell you What I learn..??? NO.. Any Information I get is NOT mine to Share..
Are there People/Business's Out there, that Want the Information for FREE.. ???? YES

Are you saying that you googled for publicly available information and are not willing to share what you found, or are you saying that someone gave you commercially sensitive information that you are not permitted to share?

Does this secret information relate to some intellectual property regarding cell chemistry or cell construction, or does it merely relate to wiring, charging, and general usage? Are you a chemical or electrical engineer, or are you just an end user of the technology like most of us?

Cloak · Guru

Thats a lot of research SnowT well done.

If you want peer group review you may need to reveal your sources so we can double check your findings.

However at first look the numbers seem ok and wow a decent system is more $$$ than I thought it would be, when you put
sola panels in it's not easily affordable for me.

I agree Lithium batteries are the grunt heros at the moment but I keep hearing of newer, better and cheaper technologies coming
by way of research for electric cars which will make lithiums cells redundant. To be truly power independent takes a serious investment
I guess.

Again well done and many thanks for this.

dorian · Guru

WBQ-LYP100AHA 3.6V (?) 100AH
liionbms.com/pdf/winston/WBQ-LYP100AHA.pdf

DC120-12B 12V 120AH
www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/DC120-12B.pdf

GPL-3100T 12V 100AH
www.lifelinebatteries.com/pdfs/GPL-3100T.pdf
www.staabbattery.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/pdf/spec_lifeline_starting.pdf
www.disvent.com/contenido_web/descargas/archivo_descarga_c9c62070.pdf

Here are my calculations which make use of the OP's stated cycling and discharge specs:

$152 / (3.6 x 100 x 3000 x 0.8) x 1000 = $0.176 / kWatt-hour
$367.48 / (12 x 120 x 1500 x 0.5) x 1000 = $0.340 / kWatt-hour
$503.25 / (12 x 100 x 1000 x 0.5) x 1000 = $0.839 / kWatt-hour

native pepper · Senior Member

Battery technology is changing all the time, currently they are leaning to lithium sulphur as they seem to have overcome the problems associated with it. Plus the batteries are solid, lighter, more capacity and much longer life span.

So where do you start and how long do you wait to choose your technology. We made a small jump to lithium, expensive but well worth the experiment, they perform much better than AGM and hopefully we will be fully changed over next year at home boat and bus once w can get the price down.

Ordered our first lithium start battery, 550cca. Didn't think it would suit the land cruisers, but a mate got one a while ago and it works fantastic in his patrol. Waiting to find out if they are designed to be used in series and run a dual battery system redarc, then will change the bus start batteries over to lithium.

SnowT · Guru

No Dorian,

I found a heap of information that was Buried in a Heap of different forum topic's Spread over the NET.. it's there to read.. and understand.. I have Spent Week's collating what I have found.. [Dollar Value Priceless]
As an Electrician that has done a little Bit of Study[Pre Lithium Batteries] in Renewable Energy systems. that gave me the basic. have had to rethink a heap of the ideas.

The Other stuff, I'm hoping at some stage to get off the People that have been doing a LOT of Testing of the system's..
- In charging [Different charger's, Solar etc's]
- running the system so they don't destroy themselves..
And the nut's and bolt's..

That is the stuff I will not share out..

They have Literary spent years now collecting, trying new thing's.. Out of their own Pocket's.. They have Not gone to company's and such to Pay them R&D money to get to where they are now..
So if I get that information, Why SHOULD I Share it, when it's Not my Personal Information ..

I don't Think that A LOT People realize that the numbers of company's that have people searching thru the net or using BOT's to scan the Information that is out there so they DO NOT have to spend the money doing the Research..
- I know of One Particular Person that Keeps on Pressurizing to get the Charging Logic that these people have worked out.. Now that Particular piece of information is worth A Bucket load to the Charger manufacturer's..

So it's Not My Information Why should It be shared..?

Ok that's Enough about the information that's out in the world..
The Main thing with this Topic is the Price of the Batteries At Initial install and the Life time cost of Said Batteries..
Lithium's Initially cost More than the cheapest AGM setup, But Make up for the Longevity of the Batteries.

You hear of People having to Replace their Batteries Every Few Year's.. The Cost add up..
You hear of People who have issue with the extra Weight they put in there van's. [Over loading them] Saw some example of Poor workmanship and what happens when People overload their Van's.
So the More you save weight in one area the better off you are.. Weight was an issue that was pointed out to me, with my expected size of the initial system I was looking at..

Also there are saving to be made if you Read all the information.. How you Ask..? All I will say is to Read the Information, it's there in Black and White..

So I'll stop my Rant there..

All I will say is go and Read up, you will be surprised with what is out there..

Juergen..

Psst Brian.. I got Better than the Flak jacket and Helmet, I have the Artillery to bomb them Back.. Plus that Shield that I put up.. thing's just wipe off..
J

dorian · Guru

I'm wondering just how much usage patterns affect battery life.

Take a typical lead-acid low maintenance car battery for example. The battery in my Toyota sedan typically lasts around 4 years. Its function is to crank the engine, after which it is recharged by the alternator at a constant voltage, and the alternator then supplies the electrical system.

Let's assume that cranking requires 5 seconds at most, and that the cranking current is 100A. Let's also assume that the engine is started twice per day on average over those 4 years.

The total energy output of the battery over its lifetime is therefore ...

100A x (5 secs per start / 3600 secs per hour) x (2 starts per day x 365 days per year x 4 years)

= 406 amp-hours

Let's assume that the capacity of a typical battery is 60AH and that the allowable depth of discharge is 50%.

This means that the energy output of the battery amounts to about 13 discharge cycles.

406 / (60 x 0.5) = 13.5

SnowT · Guru

This is what $4200 Look's Like..

A 24v 300Ah Battery Pack Pre-packing to be sent off..

24v x 300ah witih 100ah cells.JPG lithium boxes.JPG

Yes I'm going the Lithium Route from the get go, as it seems to be the best way to get everything I want/need in My Build..

Juergen

Plendo · Guru

I agree with most of what has been posted here regarding the impact of depth of discharge, and cycle life impact.

However I think one significant factor has been ignored, and that is the charge ability of the different battery types. It is safe to assume here that we are talking about the ability for the battery to cycle daily, and there is a significant difference between the batteries. The LifePo4 can basically be charged flat out until full (or within a couple of percent), where the lead acid based batteries require a more staged approach, where they need to be charged at a much slower rate for the last 20 odd percent.

This effect will further increase the amount of cell you will need in some cases.

Wombat 280 · Guru

If intending to stay out there in a self sufficient state for the life of the battery pack I would consider a gen set and a good battery charger rather than go to the expense and extra weight of complex multi battery set ups.

I crave for the days out there under the stars in my Kombi with a pressure / gas lamp , axe, open fire and maybe a small transistor radio only ever pulling out the spirit /gas stove when wood wasn't available or to wet , with all the mod cons of vanning camping today why do people bother leaving home.

Just my view of getting out there and keeping it within a reasonable budget.

Cruising Cruze · Guru

I think you're right Wombat 280

what was camping again

Next thing they will have a solar hot water system on there roof and a trailer with a 5000 gallon water tank behind there mobile home

Also just my view

Mr B2 · Senior Member

Try the sailing forums for your solar installations, They will give all information and diagrams to suit your particular needs,

My solar came off my Boat, it was fully self sufficient, No Genny, I never ran out of power, All my boat systems run 24/7, So it has to have power at all times, 270 watts of solar panels did the trick,

My Coach will be set up the same, Full solar, and fully self sufficient with power and without a Genny as back up,

But I will have 400 Watts of solar panels on both boat and Coach as I can afford it,

400 watts is currently $500-00 AUD, Delivered, With diodes included, Its a Melbourne company,

native pepper · Senior Member

Cruising Cruze wrote:
I think you're right Wombat 280

what was camping again

Next thing they will have a solar hot water system on there roof and a trailer with a 5000 gallon water tank behind there mobile home

Also just my view

Met a MH couple earlier this year in W Vic and they had a solar hot water on their roof, boosted it with gas. They said the only time they used the gas was very cloudy days or after driving on a cold day and needing a shower just after stopping. Said 1 hr of sun gave enough hot water for the two of them for the day. he made it with small poly pipe under laminated glass and only covered a square metre. Been going to do the same thing, but our roof is filled with solar panels so don't know where to put it.

-- Edited by native pepper on Sunday 29th of December 2013 11:53:19 AM

SnowT · Guru

Wombat 280 wrote:
If intending to stay out there in a self sufficient state for the life of the battery pack I would consider a gen set and a good battery charger rather than go to the expense and extra weight of complex multi battery set ups.

I crave for the days out there under the stars in my Kombi with a pressure / gas lamp , axe, open fire and maybe a small transistor radio only ever pulling out the spirit /gas stove when wood wasn't available or to wet , with all the mod cons of vanning camping today why do people bother leaving home.

Just my view of getting out there and keeping it within a reasonable budget.

Ok, So you would Like me to get a Gen-set and a Good charger..

I'll do that..

Just tell me where you are camping and I'll make sure I'm beside you, so I drive you nut's with the sound of the Generator..

Wombat, I have a few requirement's..

1 - Being that if I don't run a Cpap Machine.. It would sound Like I had the chainsaws out ALL night Long.. So the Cpap Machine need's to have a set reserve..

The Fridge, no matter what type I get needs to be running.. Freezer..etc.. do you get where I'm coming from..

Wombat I think you need to catch up with some of the others that have Lithium set-ups..

A Good set-up Will do away with having to have a Gen-set full stop..

- The idea is to Drop the overall weight down and to truly make you environ-friendly.

There is Currently one Gentleman that is Cruising around with a Hino bus conversion, that Has all the Bells and whistles and he is very comfortable in his setup..

I don't think I saw a Gen-set in his Camp..

Would you like me to put up a spread sheet on a cost comparison of what I have found out in the Last few Week's..?? with all the difference's..?

You do spend more on the initial Battery setup but you save heap's on the other end..

Juergen

Plendo · Guru

Hi Juergen,

while we are converts and excited by the technology, the opportunities it presents, and the challenges of getting it right, not everyone is like us.

I think Wombat is lamenting what he enjoys about camping, the simplicity of getting back to nature. I think he fears that people will start down the technology route and never experience the beauty of the peace and quiet of nature.

These are effectively the two extremes of the scale, in between there are others who are keen to learn once it is a little less cutting edge, and others who will welcome the new technology once it is commercialised (Kimberly Kampers have just put LifePo4 in their catalogue).

Wombat is not really attacking what we are doing, he is just expressing his fear that the next generation will miss something that he enjoys.

Please do not try to convince everyone that this is what they should be doing, it will just lead you down a road of frustration.

SnowT · Guru

Yes it will..

I had a Look at the KK site.. I'm not really impressed with what they have.. Don't know the Price.. but it Looks Expensive..

Hey I love the Camping.. and the Sight seeing..
I just want the freedom to do it My way..

Juergen

rockylizard · Guru

SnowT wrote:
~~~ I just want the freedom to do it My way..

Juergen

Gday...

And I do believe that is all Wombat wants

And for what it's worth, I am like you AND Wombat in that regard. But I prefer Wombat's camping style (over 50 years of practice is hard to undo) to the "full-technology" of today's style - but I would never denigrate anyone who wants all the bells and whistles, for what ever reason they have for doing so.

We, thankfully, are all different. Let's embrace the diversity.

Cheers - John

beiffe · Guru

I consider for the weekend warrior to have a full setup is a waste of money but for us on the road full time our rig is our home.
Do the people who say they like the basic follow this at home. No electricity, no mod cons just the basic wood fire for cooking and heating etc.
All people have their preferred mode of lifestyle, some like the comforts and some like to be primitive. Many people still like the tent lifestyle and many still live the same life even when they graduate to a MH or large caravan but some like or need comforts that modern gear can give.
We are all getting older and either prefer the life on the road, or for some they have no option as they rented all their working life but now cant afford it, or for some reason they have fallen on hard times.
For my rig, when I bought it was setup for Caravan Park use only as everything was 240v. I am a free camper so I either had to remove all the 240v appliances and replace with 12v and then still add the batteries and solar etc. Financially it was cheaper to stay 240v and use the setup I now have. To go full 12v I also would have had problems with weight while my current system gives me lots of power to do the things I want with less weight and required space than a basic 12v system where I would still be restricted in what I could do. My crank batteries are also used as house batteries so I am not carrying 60kgs just to start the bus a few times a week.
I heat my hot water with the excess solar, I can and do run my aircon when and if I need a nap in the afternoon and also to cool the bus before retiring at night. I do have to consider my power use (like most have to) in the middle of winter and if I have more than 4 or 5 days of solid rain but then that is not very often.
I have not used external power for three years and have enjoyed my life on the road with my setup. I have met people in a wizbang who also have enjoyed their time on the road for extended periods so we are both enjoying our life and we were happy to both coexist in the same rest stop.
Power usage and what we have is as contentious as free camping to Caravan parks so I prefer not to even show my bus to others except when they have given an express desire to see and then it is only the basics.
Actually a full setup using the latest technology is actually cheaper as you don't need any 12v appliances. check the price difference between a large 12v fridge and the same size in 240v, then the gas stove compare to a small induction stove and then work through all the other 12v appliances you purchase.
Much of the stuff you read on the open forums on lithium batteries should be taken with a fairly large pinch of salt as much of it is from people with no experience in lithiums. The first thing you need to ask them is how long have they used the batteries and what type they have and if it is none or a different type to what you want then ask somewhere else.
Have a great new 2014 everyone and enjoy your days you have left in what ever mode you select.
Regards
Brian

oldbobsbus · Guru

Have you found a bus yet Juergen,

I was just looking at Toyota Coasters on ebay and saw This One and thought it might interest you..

Or how about This One in Darwin

-- Edited by oldbobsbus on Wednesday 1st of January 2014 08:34:05 AM

SnowT · Guru

Bob..

The Second bus, NOT a chance.. 500k's on the Clock..

First one maybe..
But I'm also investigating getting my LR License, if I get that I'm think'n a hino or such..

Juergen

oldbobsbus · Guru

Sounds like a plan to me Juergen....
I wonder if you will still be in the planning stage by this time next year Jan1st 2015....

SnowT · Guru

I don't think so.. Bob..

I'm owed a try at a Truck License So I'm going to Push for that..

- I have seen a few Buses that I like just need to do some check's on them..
the License is the big issue..
If I an get my LR or MR I'm going to be flying..
- If I get a Bus here I'll have to organize the compliance[To Motor-home]
RWC etc..

Juergen

Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.