Re-thinking Aboriginal history

johnq · Guru

Re-thinking Aboriginal history

hako · Guru

I agree with you John, surprising to see another side, and just what do you believe. No easy answer eh. Good article though.
Regards
Denis

Sheba · Guru

Made clickable for johnq.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=15752

Sheba · Guru

Sure makes it sound not unreasonable, doesn't it ? Any-one else [ apart from you, Pete ] read "Blood on the Wattle" by Bruce Elder ? There are other well researched works as well, that don't paint such a rosy picture.

Cheers,

Sheba.

D and D · Guru

I reckon the Royal Commissioners into the Stolen Generation may well disagree with the opinions of Joe Lane: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

johnq · Guru

Royal Commissions are not infallible and depending on the brief and subject matter, and can place a lot of reliance on anecdotal comment which a court might not find to be evidence.

This is ground-breaking work, relying on documents. He didn't set out to prove anything and seems quite surprised to find that 'facts' we are given as history might not be supported by evidence.

One wonders how much of our history is factoid?

Gerty Dancer · Guru

Very interesting, Johnq, thank you.

GaryKelly · Guru

Well, as the saying goes, never let the facts get in the way of a good story. Myths are born this way.

Ontos45 · Guru

Thanks johnq, an interesting read.

2weis · Senior Member

it is said history is written by the victors (or something similar) and as aboriginals didnt have written history the only ones able to record anything were the europeans
the stolen generation is a fact and has been documented
try reading account such as THE CAMP OF MERCY it gives a good account of the times

brian

-- Edited by 2weis on Thursday 5th of December 2013 12:59:53 PM

aussietraveller · Guru

An interesting read but I suspect a somewhat inaccurate and understated story based on my past experience, but by the same token the other side of this story is also blown out of all proportion I suspect to support political bias from both sides of the argument.

johnq · Guru

I don't see how it can be any more inaccurate than the anecdotal accounts historians have been going by. One wonders if government grants drive the historical account. Those who have anything to do with government and academia will understand what is meant by that.

One of the author's replies to a question concerning the claimed 'Elliston Massacres' where dozens or even hundreds of Aboriginal men, women and children were herded over the cliffs and into the sea was:

<The problem with such reports is that there is no way to verify them: push people into the sea and where's the evidence ? On the other hand, if nobody is pushed into the sea, there wouldn't be any evidence either. Yes, I've heard of that rumour, and another 'herding over the cliffs' rumour relating to Moonta as well.

What is one supposed to do with the stories which depend on the 'absence of evidence' ? Of course, one should file it away in one's mind but not believe it outright: rumour and hearsay may not be the 'truth'. Often in the nineteenth century, especially amongst hicks and bar-flies, I suspect that highly inflated stories and rumours got bandied about. It reminds me of a story in a book by the great Ruth Park, dealing with the early history of her native New Zealand, in which an old Maori chief smacks his lips at the memory of eating a missionary - the problem, Park pointed out, was that no missionary had every been killed and eaten in New Zealand.

What counts as evidence ? A passionate and indignant story ? No, all it may be is a passionate and indignant story, without a shred of truth to it. Unless a story can be checked in some way, and backed up by some concrete evidence, by forensic archaeologists if necessary, I wouldn't give it the time of day. Life's too short.>

Fair enough!

johnq · Guru

I notice that my OP has a small yellow label/address box in the topic. What is it for and can it be dispensed with?

Sheba · Guru

Just lets you know that you started the Topic John. No-one else can see it.

Cheers,

Sheba.

johnq · Guru

Many thanks, Sheba.

Gerty Dancer · Guru

I'm starting to wonder if various things happened differently in various places, and our history has been told selectively, as if atrocities were the norm, when they may have been less common than we have been led to believe.
It would be very interesting for example if there was any remaining documentary evidence in the Broome WA area re: that "Prison Boab", where a very shameful story is told on the nearby notice-board.

johnq · Guru

The researcher's dry wit in a reply to a question:

Symbolic gestures like the apology and reconciliation, and in the future (I'm sure), a treaty and who-knows-what-else, are very valuable to many people, who are going to be on all those new and necessary committees for years to come.

They will perhaps even be on full-time salaries, attending conferences here and in Hawai'i and Canada (depending on the season), looking serious and dignified, and having great fun hob-nobbing with politicians, who will respectfully ask for their opinions on all manner of subjects.

How many people are employed in the reconciliation industry, or the apology industry ? Or the deaths in custody industry, or stolen generation industry ? Probably in the thousands.

So don't knock the power of symbolism :)

Given the politics, there could be some truth in that.

dorian · Guru

This thread reinforces in my mind the very real need for whistleblowers like WikiLeaks and Edward Snowden. The British Official Secrets Act, for one, keeps all the skeletons in the closet for at least 100 years, long after the criminal perpetrators are dead and buried. We need to know NOW what our leaders are doing in our name, both FOR us and AGAINST us.

One thing that never seems to be talked about is the "Black War" in Tasmania. In fact it is one of the earliest recorded modern genocides. Yes, that's right. Australia committed genocide by wiping out the entire Tasmanian aboriginal population.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_Tasmanian

As for aboriginal land rights, would we be even discussing this subject if the British hadn't raped and pillaged every place they went to? Imagine if they had BOUGHT the land 200 years ago. It would have cost them a few trinkets.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Minuit

"Peter Minuit purchased the island of Manhattan from Native Americans on May 24, 1626 for goods valued at 60 Dutch guilders, which in the 19th century was estimated to be the equivalent of $24 (or $1,000 USD in 2006)."

johnq · Guru

From the article I quoted originally,

Joe Lane is an independent researcher with a long-standing passion for Indigenous involvement at universities and its potential for liberation. Originally from Sydney, he worked in Indigenous tertiary support systems from 1981 until the mid-90s and gained lifelong inspiration from his late wife Maria, a noted leader in SA Indigenous education.

The documents are available, but it appears that they have not been researched. Isn't that the point of the article?

This researcher does give documentary sources, official records, that he has been diligently typing to provide an easily accessed record on computer. The official documents are available for checking. His personal record and that of his wife and their contributions to facilitating large numbers of indigenous university graduates can also be checked very easily. It seems he is already rattling the bones in the closet so to speak and he says that indigenous university undergraduates should be set areas of original research as well. That sounds like a good idea.

This researcher does not dispute the wrongs, but his research has found a lack of evidence for the broad and extreme claims that are commonplace.

If it turns out that the record is better than we have understood it, is that a problem and if so, for whom?

Ontos45 · Guru

dorian.........if the British hadn't raped and pillaged every place they went to?

Maybe people that knock the British as Colonial Powers should look at the Spanish and French record.
Remember it is British Law that allows us to speak freely on forums such as this and many men and women died in England to give us that freedom.
And ALL people of this great land have that right, just as it's our right to question some of the myths that have become Gospel in some sections of the public domain.
We would do well to remember that the first structure (a tent) erected in Sydney was a hospital, open to all, not a fort for defence or attack!

Peter

-- Edited by Ontos45 on Friday 6th of December 2013 02:53:11 PM

johnq · Guru

The original history many of us were told, the history before it was re-written by activists and the hordes of lawyers and so on who make a living out of government, was closer to the truth, that:

- the Aborigine population was low as would be expected for a Stone Age people (no offence in that) of hunter gatherers; and,

- they were devastated by introduced diseases like Small Pox, TB, VDs and the Flu.

Even in countries where such diseases originated, the death toll was high. For people who had never been exposed, the diseases were catastrophic. The first wave of some of the diseases saw 50% dead.

It is far from coincidence that there is plenty of documentary evidence for those causes of death - on graves, official records and hospital records. As there is for the high numbers of deaths of settlers and convicts from those disease. As those who visit old graveyards would attest.

I suppose we could blame everyone back then for not conducting large scale health programs to educate and treat Aborigines, forgetting in the process that the settlers suffered the same and the treatments were not available.

I have no interest either way except that like many I am interested in how people used to live, and particularly the lives of early settlers. In our 'autumn years' we like the truth and facts, to make some sense of the world around us. It is unreasonable and unfair to throw mud at early settlers and to besmirch present day children with guilt for events that are likely the myths of a various professionals and activists attached to the taxpayers' teats. As a matter of fact I would have liked my children to know much more about the lives of the people who explored, farmed and built the infrastructure much of which still exists today.

Just on health alone, we seem to forget people like Elizabeth Kenny (20 September 1880 30 November 1952), who lived lives of unselfish service to the community and that did not exclude indigenous.

RosieW · Guru

I'm late to the party, but I'd just like to say that the victors get the spoils of war, and those spoils are the chance to write the history books that future generations will read.

Aboriginal history is - to be frank - ****house in the way it is taught - I was never so angry as when I did a unit on contemporary Aboriginal society at Uni. The whole thing seemed to have been cobbled together by academics, who had never seen a bloody thing, beyond what was shown on the evening news, or the front pages of the big newspapers.

There are those who speak 'for Indigenous Australians' who know what they are on about (Noel Pearson) and those who don't; unfortunatlely, we here more of the latter than the former. And then there are those like me, who know who they are, where they came from, what they stand for, and think some of these do-gooders and activists can take a flying leap. (Yes, I'm cranky) ;)

What is past is past, we didn't do it, and we can't undo it, but we can at least be aware of it. Also, it would pay us all to remember that the acts undertaken at those times were done according to the socio-cultural norms and understandings of those times, which differ from the norms of today.

Ontos45 · Guru

Saw on the news last night - 8/01/14 - that Aldi's have withdrawn a "T" shirt from sale because it said 1770 on it. Is Capt. Cook going to be white washed out of history now?

03_troopy · Guru

Ontos45 wrote:
Saw on the news last night - 8/01/14 - that Aldi's have withdrawn a "T" shirt from sale because it said 1770 on it. Is Capt. Cook going to be white washed out of history now?

No, what it said was "AUSTRALIA Est 1788" which was when the first fleet arrived, and inferring that there was nobody here before that date. Yeah I agree, a dumb T shirt and a dumb thing to say. Apparently Big W did the same.

And what is just as insulting to anyones intelligence is that bl**dy oi oi oi one

Edited because I can't spell

-- Edited by 03_troopy on Thursday 9th of January 2014 08:01:32 PM

cultana · Senior Member

03_troopy wrote:
Ontos45 wrote:
Saw on the news last night - 8/01/14 - that Aldi's have withdrawn a "T" shirt from sale because it said 1770 on it. Is Capt. Cook going to be white washed out of history now?
No, what it said was "AUSTRALIA Est 1788" which was when the first fleet arrived, and inferring that there was nobody here before that date. Yeah I agree, a dumb T shirt and a dumb thing to say. Apparently Big W did the same.

And what is just as insulting to anyones intelligence is that bl**dy oi oi oi one
Edited because I can't spell

-- Edited by 03_troopy on Thursday 9th of January 2014 08:01:32 PM

It should have been withdrawn simply as Australia did not exist as a nation till 1901. Wrong date due to bad research or plain stupidity.

cultana · Senior Member

RosieW wrote:
I'm late to the party, but I'd just like to say that the victors get the spoils of war, and those spoils are the chance to write the history books that future generations will read.

Aboriginal history is - to be frank - ****house in the way it is taught - I was never so angry as when I did a unit on contemporary Aboriginal society at Uni. The whole thing seemed to have been cobbled together by academics, who had never seen a bloody thing, beyond what was shown on the evening news, or the front pages of the big newspapers.

There are those who speak 'for Indigenous Australians' who know what they are on about (Noel Pearson) and those who don't; unfortunatlely, we here more of the latter than the former. And then there are those like me, who know who they are, where they came from, what they stand for, and think some of these do-gooders and activists can take a flying leap. (Yes, I'm cranky) ;)

What is past is past, we didn't do it, and we can't undo it, but we can at least be aware of it. Also, it would pay us all to remember that the acts undertaken at those times were done according to the socio-cultural norms and understandings of those times, which differ from the norms of today.

Also ignored by some is that some Aboriginals call Australia Day Invasion Day. An interesting twist to that would run like: We invaded you lost so why are we giving Aboriginals so much since they lost?

Consider land rights, different, (better), government perks normal people can get and a few others.

Ontos45 · Guru

03_troopy wrote:
Ontos45 wrote:
Saw on the news last night - 8/01/14 - that Aldi's have withdrawn a "T" shirt from sale because it said 1770 on it. Is Capt. Cook going to be white washed out of history now?
No, what it said was "AUSTRALIA Est 1788" which was when the first fleet arrived, and inferring that there was nobody here before that date. Yeah I agree, a dumb T shirt and a dumb thing to say. Apparently Big W did the same.

And what is just as insulting to anyones intelligence is that bl**dy oi oi oi one
Edited because I can't spell

-- Edited by 03_troopy on Thursday 9th of January 2014 08:01:32 PM

Sorry, was only 1/2 watching, I turn off when our history being distorted. Thought it was 1770.

Close run thing in 1778, just beat being French (La Perouse), who landed in Botany bay just as First Fleet was moving to Sydney Cove.

03_troopy · Guru

Ontos45 wrote:
03_troopy wrote:
Ontos45 wrote:
Saw on the news last night - 8/01/14 - that Aldi's have withdrawn a "T" shirt from sale because it said 1770 on it. Is Capt. Cook going to be white washed out of history now?
No, what it said was "AUSTRALIA Est 1788" which was when the first fleet arrived, and inferring that there was nobody here before that date. Yeah I agree, a dumb T shirt and a dumb thing to say. Apparently Big W did the same.

And what is just as insulting to anyones intelligence is that bl**dy oi oi oi one
Edited because I can't spell

-- Edited by 03_troopy on Thursday 9th of January 2014 08:01:32 PM
Sorry, was only 1/2 watching, I turn off when our history being distorted. Thought it was 1770.
Close run thing in 1778, just beat being French (La Perouse), who landed in Botany bay just as First Fleet was moving to Sydney Cove.

It wasn't that close. depending on your research and belief it is anywhere from 40, 000 to 125,000 years out

native pepper · Senior Member

Have both Liah Pootah and Wiradjuri in my heritage, spent time on a Southern NSW mission, before being forcibly shipped to a catholic prison in Wagga Wagga when they cleared the people from their granted land so they could clear and grow wheat on it. Then to salvation army prison in Bayswater Melbourne. My memories and the history I learnt over the years are the complete opposite to what Lane claims, it's hard to put into words how I feel towards the churches and all associated with them.

The abuse was appalling and carried out for no apparent reason, note Lane never mentions the huge amount of sexual and physical abuse forced upon many part and full indigenous kids in those hell holes of degeneracy. Does anyone really think the debauched bureaucrats running aboriginal affairs and heavily in league with the churches, would write anything but glowing terms for their work.

As Dorian pointed out, discovering the History of what happened in Tas, is a real eyeopener when you discover indigenous Tasmanians lived very sophisticated lives in huge strong timber and stone houses. The churches killed the people, then used indigenous houses for their first homes and churches. Every Sunday after church they went out to do gods work, hunting down and killing indigenous. The same happened in Aus, but not on such a large scale.

Vic41 · Guru

native pepper wrote:
Have both Liah Pootah and Wiradjuri in my heritage, spent time on a Southern NSW mission, before being forcibly shipped to a catholic prison in Wagga Wagga when they cleared the people from their granted land so they could clear and grow wheat on it. Then to salvation army prison in Bayswater Melbourne. My memories and the history I learnt over the years are the complete opposite to what Lane claims, it's hard to put into words how I feel towards the churches and all associated with them.

The abuse was appalling and carried out for no apparent reason, note Lane never mentions the huge amount of sexual and physical abuse forced upon many part and full indigenous kids in those hell holes of degeneracy. Does anyone really think the debauched bureaucrats running aboriginal affairs and heavily in league with the churches, would write anything but glowing terms for their work.

As Dorian pointed out, discovering the History of what happened in Tas, is a real eyeopener when you discover indigenous Tasmanians lived very sophisticated lives in huge strong timber and stone houses. The churches killed the people, then used indigenous houses for their first homes and churches. Every Sunday after church they went out to do gods work, hunting down and killing indigenous. The same happened in Aus, but not on such a large scale.

A similar thing happened in Canada (and elsewhere) Native Pepper to Canadian Indians, from my own and my siblings experiences I also have similar feelings towards those charged with the "care" (and I use the term sarcastically) of defenceless children.

I don't know if you saw the movie "We Were Children" which was a true story about their experience in Canada, I saw in on NITV a couple of weeks back. It should be available on hire DVD's and I think on Kindle (Amazon?) it will make your blood boil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Were_Children

http://www.nfb.ca/film/we_were_children/trailer/we_were_children_trailer