VAN REAR BUMPER

nallingtoon · Senior Member

VAN REAR BUMPER

nallingtoon · Senior Member

should read where can i get a rear bumper for my caravan that will support 2 fuel cans dont know what happened to first try
Neil

dazren · Guru

Gidday Neil, might help a bit if we know what type of van you have, confuse Also do you intend to carry Diesel, or Petrol ?? iwas at a caravan muster last week, and there was a big discussion, that it is now Illegal to carry any type of Fuel, on the rear of both Vehicle or van, so may pay you to check that out before you go to the expense of fitting a bumper,,

Good Luck Dazren

2weis · Senior Member

custom towbars and trailers at capalaba 32812850

from my contact with him i think he will be able to help

brian

delatite · Veteran Member

Dazren can you please explain more about this illegality re the carrying of the fuel at the rear of the van, and where and who's legislation this is contained in.

Obviously if this has occurred it could have serious results for many in the way their van is setup. I was unable to find any reference in an internet search.

MaryJane · Senior Member

delatite wrote:
Dazren can you please explain more about this illegality re the carrying of the fuel at the rear of the van, and where and who's legislation this is contained in.

Obviously if this has occurred it could have serious results for many in the way their van is setup. I was unable to find any reference in an internet search.

Here's one reference

http://www.caravanworld.com.au/latest-reviews/article/articleid/80028.aspx

you have to read thru it, but, as I understand it, it's due to impact on the rear. Kinda makes sense, but then again, how much should we worry? As to laws and legislation, I don't know. But I know my rv maintenance man said it had to be fitted to the front. I didn't think to ask why

D and D · Guru

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/trailers-vans-campers/142205-carrying-fuel-trailers.html

http://www.caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=7061

These are two of many sites were this issue is discussed at length (google: carrying fuel on a trailer) but these contain the salient points. The applicable legislation is the dangerous goods acts in each state and territory as well as the Australian Design Rules (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/adr_online.aspx). The other interested player would be your insurance company who could refuse any claim on the basis of the claimant acting without due care and behaving recklessly (it doesn't have to be illegal for an insurance company to refuse a claim on this basis). There is also the possibility of a common law suit if other parties were injured or suffered property damage as a result of your negligence.

D and D · Guru

MaryJane wrote:
delatite wrote:
Dazren can you please explain more about this illegality re the carrying of the fuel at the rear of the van, and where and who's legislation this is contained in.

Obviously if this has occurred it could have serious results for many in the way their van is setup. I was unable to find any reference in an internet search.
Here's one reference
http://www.caravanworld.com.au/latest-reviews/article/articleid/80028.aspx
you have to read thru it, but, as I understand it, it's due to impact on the rear. Kinda makes sense, but then again, how much should we worry? As to laws and legislation, I don't know. But I know my rv maintenance man said it had to be fitted to the front. I didn't think to ask why

Just made the link clickable

delatite · Veteran Member

Yes I saw that article. It basically only says "Given some fuels are combustible on impact, fuel holders should never be attached to the rear of your van, or anywhere else they may be susceptible to impact, accidental or otherwise."

Whilst I don't disagree with this, nor what your RV man says, there is nothing in the article that says that this method of carrying fuel is now prohibited by law, not any reference to it being now "illegal".

Call me a bit anal but just would like to know what is fact and what is just opinion or comment.

MaryJane · Senior Member

Oh, thank you D and D I was about to post another... Wish I could make clickable links

caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php

How did you do that? Hmmmm

CANCEL that, that's the one D & D posted. Female moment.... Whoopsie

-- Edited by MaryJane on Thursday 28th of November 2013 07:13:21 PM

MaryJane · Senior Member

delatite wrote:
Yes I saw that article. It basically only says "Given some fuels are combustible on impact, fuel holders should never be attached to the rear of your van, or anywhere else they may be susceptible to impact, accidental or otherwise."

Whilst I don't disagree with this, nor what your RV man says, there is nothing in the article that says that this method of carrying fuel is now prohibited by law, not any reference to it being now "illegal".

Call me a bit anal but just would like to know what is fact and what is just opinion or comment.

I'm with you on that delatite. I often take things at face value, and now I'm curious. This could keep me busy for days !

But I will enjoy. hopefully someone will know the facts biggrin And beat me to it

Gerty Dancer · Guru

As well as the possible results of impact that are being discussed, there is the issue of weight. How much would 2 jerry cans of fuel weigh? How is that going to alter the safe towing of your van when it is at the back of the van?

Check Ozjohns posts here:

http://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t54746105/placing-a-box-on-the-back-of-your-van/

-- Edited by Gerty Dancer on Thursday 28th of November 2013 07:46:48 PM

oldbobsbus · Guru

There is no way I would put flammable liquids on the back of my unit.. regardless if it is legal or not..

But thats just me..

nallingtoon · Senior Member

Interesting replies we have a 23 ft sterling and have a pole tube on the front which doesnt leave much room as the sterling has a large boot/storage area on the front have thought about fitting the cans inside but would then have to move stuff also the thought of having gas an diesel in the boot doesnt gell too well, i believe 40 ltrs of diesel weighs around 40kg so will keep the thinking cap on thanks everyone for the input

Neil

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Trusting on my memory at the moment - which is a dangerous thing to do these days. But, I think last year when this topic raised its head and was discussed ad infinitum someone mentioned that Jayco will not honour their warranty on one of their vans if jerry-cans of fuel are carried on the rear.

Apparently, I think that if you asked for a rear-bumper with fuel holders to be fitted to a new van they would refuse to fit it.

Perhaps a call to Jayco could confirm - or clear - this.

Cheers - John

deconuts · Veteran Member

It just happens that we were discussing this topic today and were thinking about putting the jerry can in the back of the Wildtrack. Alternative would be on the A frame but that would add extra weight on the towball. Is there any issues with the Wildtrack option?

SnowT · Guru

wild idea..

Try moving some heavier item's to the back of the van so the weight is evened out..
Balance the load..

Juergen

Gerty Dancer · Guru

SnowT wrote:
wild idea..

Try moving some heavier item's to the back of the van so the weight is evened out..
Balance the load..

Juergen

No! Read Ozjohns posts in that link I posted, adding extra weight to the back to balance the front can lead to dangerous sway problems.

SnowT · Guru

Gerty.. My mad thought was if you add say 40lt's of Fuel to the A frame. then balance 40kg of Weight to the back side of the rear axle..
Within the framework of the Van, Not on the Rear of the VAN outside..

When I was Younger[28 year's ago] and we did our usually Camping Trip, we only had a 6x4 travel with a Canopy on it to take the Bulky item's.. the time of NO jockey wheels
As we where going dredging we had a huge amount of Gear to take..
The heavy item's got loaded on the top of the axles and the rest was spread out.. you had to be able to Pick up the Trailer with out having to use To much force, But enough load that it did not want to sit on it Arse by it's self..

The Load had to be just right..
In the Initial Load we took about 140lt of Fuel with us, so that was spread over the axles.. Bulk Tinned food also got the axle treatment..

I know that there is a Standard for Load distribution in trailer's/ camper etc.. the better Balanced they are the Better the ride..

If the Load is Balance to far forward it put's to much of a Strain on the Tow point.. which Causes the weight to lighten the load on the front of the car so it loses traction/control..[You can cause the front end to bounce[NOT GOOD]
If the Load is Balance is to far Back, it makes the back of the van unstable..

I pulled many Load's and yes I have Screwed up Balancing one of them.. 100 brick's stacked to the front of the A frame.. Never Again.... the rest of the weight on the trailer was not enough to counter the 200kg of mass..

Juergen..

ozjohn · Guru

Adding a rear bumper with jerry can in many cases create dangerous chaotic yaw (Swaying - Snaking) under various circumstances.
The mass of the bumper plus two jerry vans, their contents and holders could conceivable add 100Kg plus to the rear.
Traveling over bumps the rear rises and then quickly comes back down. The inertia of this rebound or the inertia of yaw can increase the weight of that 100Kg mass to 400Kg or more. Stopping a 100Kg from moving is hard enough, but once it does move the increased inertia weight of 400Kg is going to be even harder to stop.

CARRYING FUEL
State Regulations:

WESTERN AUSTRALIA
The WA Dangerous Goods Act 1988, and Dangerous Goods (Transport) (Road and Rail) Regulations
1999, contains the relevant regulations, both of which are based on the Australian Dangerous
Goods Code (ADGC), sixth edition.

The maximum permissible quantity is 250 litres of petrol, which should be carried in approved
containers in either the boot or on external brackets. It can be carried within the passenger
compartment, such as the back of a station wagon, in approved, properly restrained containers,
but this is not recommended.
Contact the Explosives and Dangerous Goods Division of the WA Department of Mineral and
Petroleum Resources for further into (08 9222 333)

QUEENSLAND
The Transport Operations (Road Use Management - Dangerous Goods) Regulation 1998 permits
carrying up to 250 litres of dangerous goods (fuel) for personal use. The responsibility for
filling a jerry can and ensuring it is an approved container lies with the person filling the
container.

Under the Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995 owners are prohibited from
modifying their vehicle, its parts or equipment, and from carrying dangerous goods
(irrespective of quantity or position), in an unsafe manner.

This includes carrying containers upright, ensuring they don't leak and are properly secured,
and do not overload the vehicle (especially if transported on roof-racks). A booklet titled Load
Restraint Guide (available from Commonwealth Government Bookshops) should be consulted
Write to: The Group Manager, Vehicle Safety and Industry Reform Section,
Queensland Transport, PO Box 673 Fortitude Valley QLD 4006.

SOUTH AUSTRALIA
In South Australia, petrol is covered by the Dangerous Substances Act and Regulations, which are
in turn based on the ADGC; therefore, the same 250- limit applies.

Diesel is unregulated, as elsewhere, but the Department for Administrative and Information
Services advises that petrol (and diesel) transportation would be covered by the general duty of
care provisions contained in Sections 11 and 12 of the Dangerous Substances Act.

The Road Traffic Act has provisions for duly of care relating to vehicle safety issues such as
overhanging loads and impact protection. They also state that, while carrying fuel in the
driver's vapour space (in a van or wagon), is much debated, it is up to each individual driver
to assess their own risk and duty of care provisions when deciding whether to fit a range tank
or carry fuel in jerry cans. Dangerous Substances Branch, Workplace Services (08) 8303 0447

VICTORIA
In Victoria, the relevant legislation is the Road Act 1995, which has been adopted from
the, (Dangerous Goods) Act -1995 and the Road Transport (Dangerous Goods) Regulations.

The Regulations reference the ADGC under which Regulation 1.10 exempts small quantities of fuel
from the rigours of the Dangerous Goods legislation. This refers, again, to petrol only. Diesel
is not considered dangerous goods.

They maintain it is the responsibility of the driver items, regardless of type, are firmly and
a fuel should be stored in AS2906 containers minimum requirement.
Write to: Victorian WorkCover Authority, Dangerous Goods Unit
GPO Box 4306 Melbourne Vic 3001

TASMANIA
The Tasmanian government refers these, issues to the Dangerous Goods (Road and Rail Transport)
Regulations 1998, which covers general safety and load restraint safety.

The filling of fuel containers is also covered by AS1940 - Storage and Handling of Combustible
and Flammable Liquids. They advise that a person can carry 250 litres of petrol for private use
(as per the ADOC), but the containers must meet AS2906 Fuel Containers/Portable/Plastics and
Metal.

Tasmanian Vehicle and Traffic (Vehicle Standards) that an object fitted to a vehicle must be
designed, built and maintained to minimise the likelihood of injury. As such, this would
prohibit the fitting of jerry cans containing dangerous or explosive substances to any vehicle
(car,4WD, caravan, trailer), especially given the likelihood of rear or side-impact collisions.

Owners of vehicles should check the 'fine print' of their insurance policies. If fuel is
transported in an unsafe manner and an accident leads to greater damage or injury than might
otherwise have been the case apportion blame to the driver and/or invalidate the policy.
Write to: The Department of Infrastructure, Energy and Resources,
GPO BOX 936 HOBART TAS 7001.

NEW SOUTH WALES
The NSW Environment Protection Authority (EPA) and WorkCover NSW are the competent authorities
for dangerous goods control in NSW. They' administer the Road and Rail Transport (Dangerous
Goods) Act 1997 and the Road Transport Reform (Dangerous Goods) (NSW) Regulations 1998.

Under these laws, jerry cans must be approved containers for the transport of Class 3 liquids
(petrol) (ie, AS2906) and the maximum permissible quantity is 250 litres. Diesel is not
considered a dangerous good, but a combustible, and must be carried in a safe manner.

Division 9.3.1 (1) (e) of the ADGC states that 'if the package (ie, jerry can) contains
dangerous goods of a kind that may lead to the formation of flammable, toxic or other harmful
atmospheres - the package must be stowed so that no harmful atmosphere will accumulate in the
cabin If the package leaks'.

The above would indicate that great care should be taken when storing jerry cans inside a 4WD's
luggage compartment, whether it is a separate boot or part of the passenger compartment. AS2906
containers are designed not to vent to the atmosphere, provided they are in good condition and
the seals/lids are functioning correctly.

Write to: NSW Environment Protection Authority
Dangerous Goods Office
59-61 Goulburn St, Sydney NSW 2000.

NORTHERN TERRITORY.
Only containers which comply with Northern Territory Dangerous Goods Regulation 217 can be used
to transport flammable, (petrol.) and combustible (diesel) fuels. Essentially, this covers
containers complying with AS1533/34 and AS1 940, but 'approved container' is also specified
which indicates that containers complying with AS2906 would also be acceptable.

The Northern Territory Dangerous Goods legislation is b ADGC, which specifies that not more
than 250 litres of petrol can be carried. No quantity is specified for diesel.

Information bulletins are available at www.nt.gov.au/cbb/wha or contact
The Department of Industries and Business, Work Health (08) 8999 511 8

AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY
The transport of fuel is covered under the Dangerous Goods Act. 1975, Dangerous, Goods
Regulations 1978, Road Transport Reform (Dangerous Goods) Act 1995 and Road Transport
(Dangerous Goods) Regulations. The latter takes its requirements from the ADGC.

The DGA (1975) Section, 12 and 14 require fuel to be carried in appropriate, containers
to prevent spillage or leakage, and make it an offence to carry fuel in a manner likely to
cause death/injury, or damage to property.

Section 37(1) of the RTR (DIG) Act1 1995 requires fuel be transported in a safe manner.
Sub Section (2) makes it an offence to do so where a person "ought to have known" that what
they were doing was unsafe or likely to cause damage to persons or property.
Contact: ACT WorkCover (Dangerous Goods) (02) 6207 6354.
**************************************************************************************************************************************

From the above one should specifically look at the following sections from Tas & ACT.

Tasmanian Vehicle and Traffic (Vehicle Standards) that an object fitted to a vehicle must be
designed, built and maintained to minimise the likelihood of injury. As such, this would
prohibit the fitting of jerry cans containing dangerous or explosive substances to any vehicle
(car,4WD, caravan, trailer), especially given the likelihood of rear or side-impact collisions.

ACT The DGA (1975) Section, 12 and 14 require fuel to be carried in appropriate, containers
to prevent spillage or leakage, and make it an offence to carry fuel in a manner likely to
cause death/injury, or damage to property.

Section 37(1) of the RTR (DIG) Act1 1995 requires fuel be transported in a safe manner.
Sub Section (2) makes it an offence to do so where a person "ought to have known" that what
they were doing was unsafe or likely to cause damage to persons or property.
Contact: ACT WorkCover (Dangerous Goods) (02) 6207 6354.

The above should be taken as a guide only and I recommend you seek updated advice from your State Transport Authority.

Cheers, Ozjohn.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Thanks for all the info Ozjohn. However, with the exception of the Tasmanian regulations, these are referring to the carrying of upto 250litres of petrol/diesel within or by a motor vehicle. As you highlight, only Tasmania actually mentions "car, 4WD, caravan, trailer", and ACT only says it is an offence to carry petrol/diesel "in a manner likely to cause death/injury, or damage to property." None actually define the term "unsafe".

All State's regulations are silent on the permitted location for the carriage of petrol/diesel external to the passenger compartment of a vehicle with the exception of the above. However, common sense dictates that the carriage of jerry cans of petrol (in particular) or diesel on the rear of a motor vehicle, trailer or caravan has the potential to be dangerously impacted in the event of a rear-ended collision. Obviously, petrol is more volatile with a higher potential. It would appear there is no actual law/regulation/legislation published that stipulates or dictates the location for carriage of upto 250litres of petrol/diesel for "personal use". Interestingly, it is permissible to carry jerry cans of petrol/diesel within the vehicle - as long as one 'ensures' there are no vapours to affect the driver/passengers. How dangerous would a jerry can inside the rear of a 4WD be in the event of a rollover - either completely or onto its side.

In discussions such as this thread (and many others I have seen over the past four years) there appears to be nothing that provides assistance or firm advice to caravanners in particular.

Add to this the problem of loading the rear of a caravan with the additional weight that was quite probably never considered by the manufacturer in its load distribution design and the lay person is left in a quandary. Thoughtful people arrive at different risk assessments in such instances and not all are perhaps correct.

Despite my concern that there is a potential of rear-impact, my risk assessment is that jerry cans carried in sturdy, enclosing, steel carriers is the safest of what could be perhaps an unsafe situation. (see photo)

Like so much in this life, we seek legislation/regulation/advice to save us from ourselves - but it is not always forthcoming.

Cheers - John

Radar · Guru

hi All

Been following this post reading and learning as I go.

Now the first thing I thought about was will I need to carry the extra fuel.

1. are we really going to tow the van somewhere that our normal fuel load is not going to take us.

2. is it because we can buy fuel at the chain store servo cheaper, we might save a loaf of bread per week.

Answer to the 2 question is

1. yes stick approved fuel container on the back of the van, they are generally better quality container (most vehicles use plastic tanks) and are at the rear of the car, with inches and lower to the ground with no real protection.

2. If this is the case and most are possibly driving commercial vehicles, fit an after market larger fuel tank which I don't agree with as the more weight you carry, it over all affects the vehicles performance, but then you pulling a caravan and that's enough to blow performance and handling out the door.

I do know that there is one or two areas in Australia where a small drum of fuel would be good as there is that gap between servos, border line cases.

I drive a Land Rover 2002 td 5 diesel most times towing my van I get about 600 ks but then my brother has a Rav v6 petrol and with standard fuel tank 400 ks on 2 trips around Australia needed that 1 container of fuel once.

If I hard to lift that fuel twice to put it in the car I know where it would end up, just for an exercise find something that weighs around 20 kgs and carry it from the back of your van to the front, go on a couple of times this will give you some idea if you need to go down that path.

A caravan sales person was telling me most older people order there vans with 2 small gas cylinders for that reason they become heavy.

Only last week an extra long weekend away freedom camping with my standard van, no extra water tank I brought a 20 litre water container lifting this in and out of the the car full of water a couple of times gave me the message should of got 2 x 10 litre ones.

-- Edited by Radar on Saturday 30th of November 2013 10:53:58 AM