45 Kg gas bottle

oldbobsbus · Guru

45 Kg gas bottle

Cloak · Guru

Given that the 9Kg bottle re-fills are a ripoff can you mount a 45 Kg bottle on a van?

I just paid $100 for a re-fill on the bottle here @ home - much more economical.

SnowT · Guru

OK..

Let the cat's and dog's out..

Very dumb comment coming up..

If your appliance could run on LPG gas, what is wrong with having a LPG tank..

Just fill it up at the next service station..

Juergen..

oldbobsbus · Guru

I am into simple answers so in a nutshell here is your answer..

1. Auto gas can and often is predominantly Butane (up to 50% is allowable the stuff we use in cigarette lighters that burns yellow) whereas household MUST be predominantly Propane (98% infact) to burn blue and not create carbon monoxide (the stuff that kills ya)

2. Autogas tanks are liquid withdrawal so they would need to be modified at manufacture to withdraw vapour or mounted upside down and then the auto shutoff valve would not allow filling..
3. Autogas tanks take up too much space.
Thats enough reasons... apart from the fact that you wouldn't be able to get the installation certified..

SnowT · Guru

One thing..

When I was working over in the Somerton Area there is a company Called Supergas..

they sell both versions of LPG The normal LPG with a higher butane content and the Good Stuff that is >95% Propane.. it cost about 5c more per litre at the time..
And it cleaned all the crap out of my Gas system.. so you Can get A More Pure LPG for Car's etc..

But you are right about certification..

Tank size.. Cloak was talking o putting in a 45kg tank and they are fairly large..

Juergen

KFT · Guru

A bit OT here, please excuse me.

I am not convinced that there is any difference when you see a big tanker filling the onsite tank at the hospital for cooking and heating and then that tanker goes down the road and fills the auto gas tank at the servo and the BBQ filling station as well.

the tanker driver said it is all out of the same bulk tank at the depot.

so what are we really getting?

frank

oldbobsbus · Guru

KFT wrote:
A bit OT here, please excuse me.

I am not convinced that there is any difference when you see a big tanker filling the onsite tank at the hospital for cooking and heating and then that tanker goes down the road and fills the auto gas tank at the servo and the BBQ filling station as well.

the tanker driver said it is all out of the same bulk tank at the depot.

so what are we really getting?

frank

If you are in a country town that can well happen Frank, but you have to be aware that each application requires different specs regarding the mixture required..

In the cities the gas suppliers supply the lowest permissible mix allowable but in country areas they have no other option but to supply the only gas they have in their tanks.

An auto installation will run very well on a rich Propane mix but a stove or fridge wont run on a rich Butane auto mix without causing your pots to become blackened and your health to suffer.

KFT · Guru

Thanks Bob, I am a sparky so gas is just the stuff that I light to me.

what you are saying to me(as I understand it) is that they are not complying with the standards that set what gas is for what? have I got that right?

are they playing games with us?

frank

oldbobsbus · Guru

KFT wrote:
Thanks Bob, I am a sparky so gas is just the stuff that I light to me.

what you are saying to me(as I understand it) is that they are not complying with the standards that set what gas is for what? have I got that right?

are they playing games with us?

frank

Well YES they are complying to the standards Frank..

They are required to supply gas for cooking of at least 98% propane and Autogas of at least 50% propane and the rest can be made up of Butane, Propalene, and Butalene.

What is happening in country areas is that they are supplying the good stuff to everyone..

You would soon know it if you used a lesser gas for cooking as the bottom of your pots would turn BLACK.. and it would give you a headache..

rosco532 · Senior Member

Bob....I was told years ago that home BBQ'S etc could be run on auto gas by simply having the appliance rejetted....

One other point that ''burns me up''.....is

Auto LPG attracts road user tax .....so .....Why is the domestic so dam expensive ...?????.That $100 refill was way over the top...S/B max around $30-

Cheers

Just Googled this info.....

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1562717

-- Edited by rosco532 on Friday 22nd of November 2013 08:45:00 PM

KFT · Guru

many thanks BOB

that might explain why country areas autolpg is 96.6 Cpl?

frank

oldbobsbus · Guru

rosco532 wrote:
Bob....I was told years ago that home BBQ'S etc could be run on auto gas by simply having the appliance rejetted....
One other point that ''burns me up''.....is
Auto LPG attracts road user tax .....so .....Why is the domestic so dam expensive ...?????.That $100 refill was way over the top...S/B max around $30-

Cheers

Ummm rejetting your BBQ could definitely work so long as you were sure you could buy the same mix everytime you ran out and as a matter of interest how much gas would you use each year on your BBQ..would it be worth the effort..

I guess the simple answer to your price question is that for every 1ltr of Propane that is extracted we get 3ltrs of the other junk gasses...

I believe we burn off at the well head more of the junk gas than we use..

PeterD · Guru

We know that service stations are often supplied with the cleaner burning propane gas. However the problem is we can't guarantee that the service station we fill at does not have the dirtier auto gas mix.

SnowT · Guru

The Crappy thing about burning off the Crappy Gas it could be used for production of Electricity or even just to heat water and provide steam for heating, etc..

And the stuff is just wasted..

Juergen

Herb · Veteran Member

For information, Aussie By Design in Port Wakefield have an application going through the relevent Government authorities to install tank systems to caravans. They install then underneath the van as they would be in a car. when I last talked to them they were still waiting final clearance. They have a van setup already and looks good.
Image being able to fill as you would your car. Bigger tank. Cheaper gas, Safer, no bottles on front, Bliss.

oldbobsbus · Guru

Herb wrote:
For information, Aussie By Design in Port Wakefield have an application going through the relevent Government authorities to install tank systems to caravans. They install then underneath the van as they would be in a car. when I last talked to them they were still waiting final clearance. They have a van setup already and looks good.
Image being able to fill as you would your car. Bigger tank. Cheaper gas, Safer, no bottles on front, Bliss.

I can't imagine them getting approval for that... If you read ALL the way through this thread you will see that Auto gas and Cooking gas have 2 very different sets of Specs..

To set up an installation to use auto gas in a cooking environment could be disastrous as it would jeopardize the health of those using it..

The only reason Autogas is cheaper is that it is of a lesser quality..

SnowT · Guru

I have done a Bit of digging.. And REALLY think that we are be told a heap of Pork Pie's by the gas company's..

Yes there is a difference between Autogas spec's and LPG for the barbecue/house etc.. - the Difference does not show it's head at country area's thou.. The same tanker's that go out to top up the service station's also top up central serve point's..

I found some information.. I'm going to take Quote's and will give the Website..

Commercially available "propane" fuel, or LPG, is not pure. Typically in the United States and Canada, it is primarily propane (at least 90%), with the rest mostly ethane, propylene, butane, and odorants including ethyl mercaptan.[13][14] This is the HD-5 standard, (Heavy Duty-5% maximum allowable propylene content, and no more than 5% butanes and ethane) defined by the American Society for Testing and Materials by its Standard 1835 for internal combustion engines. Not all products labeled "propane" conform to this standard however. In Mexico, for example, where much of the bottled liquefied gas sold is, in fact, butane, gas labeled "propane" may actually consist of 60% propane and 40% butane

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane

Quality control at the Cavern is exacting. Each supplier of gas to the Cavern, whether from Australia's natural reserves, domestic refineries or Tanker docking at Elgas Cavern elsewhere in the world, provides an independent certification of quality prior to arrival. When a sea tanker docks at Port Botany, a sample is drawn and analysed to confirm the cargo still meets the certificated high quality and also adheres to the Australian Liquefied Petroleum Gas Association (ALPGA) specification and the 95% minimum propane requirement for LP gas in Australia. Abiding by these protocols means our LP gas continuously meets or exceeds quality specifications and you are assured of the highest quality LPG.

http://www.elgas.com.au/for-home

Read the attached PDF..

If I have read it correctly, if you had a Gas tank for your onboard need's the best spot to get the Good stuff is the Country servo's..

- Supragas has the good stuff for sale at the pumps, it cost more to get But it is available..

so the Story is ARE we being Lied to..??

Personally I think we are..

Psst I have Run a LPG system in the last few car's and have not had any troubles as such.. The Car got a better range when I filled in country area's..

Juergen

oldbobsbus · Guru

SnowT, you go ahead and do what ever you want to do..

When it comes time to register your motorhome you will have to get someone with the right licence to put a compliance certificate on it and if they aren't happy then it is back to the drawing board..

In my 30odd yrs in the gas industry I have seen many illegal installations of both household gas and Autogas (I hold an autogas licence too) and I have had to condemn many of them..

I have gone to great lengths to explain about gas and the difference in REQUIREMENTS between cooking gas and Autogas..just becoz most of the time when you fill with autogas it is the good stuff it only take one fill of butane to do the damage to your health and equipment..

oldbobsbus · Guru

The best thing anyone considering to do their own gas installation is get a copy of the Australian Standard AS5601-2004 and have a good read before starting it will save you a few headaches at the end when it comes time to have it complied..

SnowT · Guru

Bob,

I'm not going to use Gas in my system, at all..

- Yes, I have a Gas fitter that can use if I have to..

All I'm trying to Say is that.. WHY can't we have LPG tank system's in our RV's..
- the Price difference Between Bottled GAS and LPG is, to put it bluntly Stupid..

There are Location's Where you CAN get the Good stuff to fill your Auto LPG system's.. At Last check the Price difference was only 5c above std autogas..
How do I know.. When I was working in the Somerton Area I would make sure I filled up there.. All 130lt tank..

All I saying is WHY do we have to pay so much for Bottled Gas..

- The USofA allow the use of Propane tank's in their RV's.. [Yes they have the Good stuff]..

So the Question is "What is the Difference Between Us and them..?"

WE have Bottled GAS that is used in our RV's.. The Only Difference is the simple fact that we have to use bottle Gas which we have to Pay thru the roof for..
- Supagas sell's a Quality LPG for Car usage... 95%> Propane fuel..

So all I'm trying to say is WHY NOT have larger Tank's..

How many People have installed Gas detector's in their RV's..?

I found something else..

LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS (LPG):
The installation of LPG appliances must comply with the applicable requirements of the Australian
Standard AS5601 Gas installations. The installation must be certified as complying by a suitably qualified and recognised household gas appliance fitter.
The vehicle must have a compliance plate/certificate fitted indicating that the installation meets the required Australian Standard.
The vehicles petrol or diesel fuel tank filler point must be on the opposite side of the vehicle to the refrigerator vent and any pilot lights that may create a source of ignition.

Gas appliances used in motorhomes must not be connected to or derive fuel from the vehicle's LPG fuel system (if fitted).

That was Pulled from [See Attached PDF]

Ok from the Above statement.. The Last sentence If I understand it.. is that you may not connect LPG Appliance to the LPG fuel system of the vehicle.. IF the Fuel system is used to run the vehicle..

My Question is What if the LPG tank is There to only provide fuel for the Appliance's.. ie Like the Bottle GAS.. ??

Juergen

And yes Bob I do agree that YOU/ME/US/EVERYONE should Follow the standards All I'm asking is WHY can't we use a Dedicated LPG Gas Tank to supply the Fuel for our Gas appliance's..

-- Edited by SnowT on Thursday 28th of November 2013 06:03:01 PM

oldbobsbus · Guru

Here ya go SnowT do yourself a favour buy yourself a copy of this Australian Standard...

http://infostore.saiglobal.com/store2/Details.aspx?ProductID=1675075

Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.