There are times I am embarrassed being male....

rockylizard · Guru

There are times I am embarrassed being male....

03_troopy · Guru

???

Grams · Guru

The picture is about a woman who was raped, but the rapist told the court that the clothes the woman was wearing provoked him to rape her...like that is an excuse...

Jedo_03 · Veteran Member

Hopefully... the court didn't believe him... (Mechanical Castration would be a fitting punishment...)

Rip and Rosie · Guru

Courts have believed excuses like that for many years.

D and D · Guru

And it is still accepted in some societies - talk about blaming the victim

johnq · Guru

<There are times I am embarrassed being male....>

I am embarrassed by those who blame a gender and not the real offenders. Since when did being born male render one to be a potential rapist and molester of girls?

Let us be very, very clear, the number of people who commit offences, and especially crimes against people, are a small section of the community. Many if not most are repeat offenders. To insinuate that men and boys are by nature, ie born or otherwise disposed to commit violence against other people, is absolute codswhallop. It offends the millions of sons, fathers, boy friends and males generally who would never hurt anyone intentionally and who care, nurture and defend.

That poster is undoubtedly from overseas. Because while I cannot comment on the country concerned, it is a fact that Australian courts do not accept that excuse. It is misleading.

It is also a fact that many unreported sex crimes and particularly rape are committed against males. Authorities have been encouraged by societal attitudes to disregard and even disbelieve complaints made by men. One hopes that the Royal Commission into Child Abuse will raise the curtain on such offences committed against children, and including boys at long last.

Demonising boys and men as callous, sex-crazed, potential rapists is Eighties radical/lesbian feminism. Most feminists were embarrassed by them then, and now the rads are disregarded as counter-productive dinosaurs, in a rut.

I am not embarrassed to be a man. My sons are good men. My father and his father and his father before him were good men. My friends are good men. I do not apologise for any of them. I am very proud of them.

[edited for a misspell]

-- Edited by johnq on Wednesday 25th of September 2013 03:11:21 PM

johnq · Guru

So too there are many good women than bad uns.

Imagine if all women had to sign a pledge that they will not be child neglectors.

Or that women should be made to feel responsible and embarrassed by those who are.

It is quite apparent that boys and young men are being harmed by the relentless negative stereotyping. Speaking directly of Australia now, we do not have an enviable record for male self-harm, under-achievement at school and suicide.

It is not a matter of gender, except for those who earn their daily bread making it seem so.

I should add that from the tone of his posts on here I do not believe that the original poster should feel embarrassed at all. My criticisms are directed at the very clever and insidious campaign against men that could make a man feel embarrassed by what a criminal has done. Boys and men have been strongly sledged for years to apologise and feel responsible. But for what, specifically? For being the protectors, earners, carers and (very often) for not caring about their own wellbeing in the process? Maybe we should be communicating something very different to the men in our lives and (for men) when we think of ourselves.

-- Edited by johnq on Wednesday 25th of September 2013 04:03:46 PM

GaryKelly · Guru

There's never an excuse for rape. Period.

johnq · Guru

Rip and Rosie wrote:
Not one of you men have ever felt fear at walking down the street.

While you can throw child sexual abuse, and female initiated abuse into the argument, let us be clear that many many women are not safe on our streets.

Ask Jill Maher.

Ask Anita Coby.

Any street where a woman does not feel safe is also unsafe for men.

If you really want to argue numbers it is men who suffer the most assaults. That is by a large margin. It is not because they seek it either, just as the victim of sexual molestation has not sought to be a victim.

But none of that is the point is it? The point is that we the ordinary law-abiding citizens, women and men, are affected by violence. Making it into a gender war does nothing to help and it is counter productive to do so.

The monkey is not on the backs of all men for Jill Meagher. Her grief-stricken husband should not feel guilty because he is a man. Presumably you would denounce anyone who (say) blamed all Muslims for the bombings of the few, yet you would see nothing wrong in blaming men for Jill Maegher.

-- Edited by johnq on Wednesday 25th of September 2013 09:18:10 PM

neilnruth · Guru

I was interested to hear last night on an animal show that if the balance of male/female ducks is not correct the males 'rape' the female. I had never thought of such behaviour transferring to the animal world.

Delta18 · Guru

GaryKelly wrote:
There's never an excuse for rape. Period.

I'm going to leave that right alone!

biggrin biggrin

countryroad · Senior Member

I think rockylizard was just expressing a comment, something moved him...as it did me as a niece by marriage was raped on a regular occurrence, from age 11, at 16 she overdosed so she had peace, pity about her childhood though. Everyone thought he was a great

guy too, pity it wasn't true.

We have heard all you expressed johnq, and are not disputing it, there are more good men than bad uns. just such a shame about the not very good of whatever their gender.

jimbo · Guru

There has also been cases of Rape by a women on a girl.........

Rip and Rosie · Guru

Not one of you men have ever felt fear at walking down the street.

While you can throw child sexual abuse, and female initiated abuse into the argument, let us be clear that many many women are not safe on our streets.

Ask Jill Maher.

Ask Anita Coby.

herbie · Guru

There is GOOD and BAD in all walks of life.

Grams · Guru

When I was younger my ex husband raped me...I never reported it because I was told there is no such thing as rape in marriage, plus he was drunk, plus he was on drugs....I don't care whether he was male, female, black, white, fat or thin...it's what he did, and my only gripe is he did it.

My uncle molested me as a child, again a sick perverted sick pig, I wasnt the only one. He liked boys and girls and so long as you were aged between 6 months and 10 years you were fair game. Again I don't care what gender he was.

I am not stereotyping males are all bad, and no one on here has, there are a few I would torture if I could. The original poster made a comment about him being ashamed of being male, bad choice of words maybe, but don't take it literally as I'm sure it's not what he meant.

Lynn

Rip and Rosie · Guru

Grams wrote:
.................... I am not stereotyping males are all bad, and no one on here has, there are a few I would torture if I could. ...................

Lynn

same here

Bryan · Guru

Although I don't believe in a eye for an eye, there are certain crimes when this applies, rape is one of them.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

I have refrained from comment since I posted that photo (and was not going to respond) as everyone has their right to their opinion and view on life. I have been reading the 'acknowledgements' I really did not think were needed. It would appear, in varying ways, all support the intent of the post.

The whole point of the post was that ALL men (in fact, ALL society in ALL parts of the world) should realise there is NO excuse EVER for violence (whether physical or emotional) against women.

Perhaps, I should have said "Please make sure each of you take the responsibility to never condone any excuse by any person for violence against a woman" rather than "... simply make sure every male you know is aware of it."

In each posters response I think the intent of the photo has been reflected - so, as good-thinking, good-living people, along with our resolve to tell other campers when they are filthy by dumping rubbish and effluent, and not paying their donations etc at camping sites - let us also be as dogmatic to make sure violence against women is seen as the hideous, gutless, cowardly, obnoxious thing it is and is never acceptable.

Cheers - sermon endeth, so let's all get back to enjoying travelling - John

GaryKelly · Guru

Rip and Rosie wrote:
Not one of you men have ever felt fear at walking down the street.

What survey did that come from?

Duh · Guru

This item on male rape (mostly committed by other males) is interesting;

http://www.aboutdaterape.nsw.gov.au/finding_help/guys_victims.html

http://www.aifs.gov.au/acssa/pubs/wrap/w2.html

By the way, male or female ejaculation is a body reflex and does not mean you have consented to sex or enjoyed it according to researchers.

I was engaged once to a nurse that had been raped, she had been forced into her car at night from behind as she was leaving after a night shift, a knife was held at her throat. She was taken to a remote paddock, stripped, made to perform oral sex with a knife to her throat and penetrated etc.

She told me that despite fearing for her life, she had an orgasm. The perpetrator was a criminal on parole. Later he was again release on parole and this time committed rape while armed with a gun. So much for our justice system.

Rip and Rosie · Guru

GaryKelly wrote:
Rip and Rosie wrote:
Not one of you men have ever felt fear at walking down the street.

What survey did that come from?

London, United Kingdom: In a poll conducted by the Ending Violence Against Women (EVAW) Coalition in London, 43 percent of young women ages 18-34 had experienced street harassment just during the past year alone. The total sample size was 1047 adults and the poll was conducted in early March 2012.

Indianapolis, USA: In one of the first street harassment studies ever conducted, Carol Brooks Gardner, associate professor of sociology and womens studies at Indiana University, Indianapolis, interviewed 293 women in Indianapolis, Indiana, over several years in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The women were from every race, age, class, and sexual orientation category of the general population in Indiana and the United States. Gardner found that every single woman (100 percent) could cite several examples of being harassed by unknown men in public and all but nine of the women classified those experiences as troublesome.

Canada: Using a national sample of 12,300 Canadian women ages 18 and older from 1994, sociology professors Ross Macmillan, Annette Nierobisz, and Sandy Welsh studied the impact of street harassment on womens perceived sense of safety in 2000. During their research, they found that over 80 percent of the women surveyed had experienced male stranger harassment in public and that those experiences had a large and detrimental impact on their perceived safety in public.

United States: Penn, Schoen and Berland Associates conducted a nationally representative telephone survey of 612 adult women between June 17 and June 19, 2000. From this survey, they found that almost all women had experienced street harassment: 87 percent of American women between the ages of 18-64 had been harassed by a male stranger; and over one half of them experienced extreme harassment including being touched, grabbed, rubbed, brushed or followed by a strange man on the street or other public place. Shattering the myth that street harassment is an urban problem, the survey found that women in all areas experienced it: 90 percent in rural areas, 88 percent in suburban areas, and 87 percent in urban areas. Sadly, 84 percent of women consider changing their behavior to avoid street harassment.

To name a few

johnq · Guru

Anyone can pull unaudited numbers, so often taken from surveys where the brief guarantees the desired findings, to 'prove' anything. The limitations in interpreting the results of the survey are never publicised.

What could be more simple and truthful than acknowledging the simple and undeniable truth that the overwhelming majority of men are no different from the similarly overwhelming majority of women in abhorring and being truly disgusted by violence?

It is grossly unfair, wrong and reprehensible that boys and men are being made to feel responsible for criminal behaviour they could never support, would never dream of doing themselves and do their very best to protect their loved ones and themselves from?

Why is it so necessary to delegitimise and pathologise a whole gender? It is unprincipled. Who gains from that?

Grams · Guru

No one is blaming the male gender, I have no idea where your getting this idea from...

rockylizard · Guru

johnq wrote:
~~~SNIP~~~
It is grossly unfair, wrong and reprehensible that boys and men are being made to feel responsible for criminal behaviour they could never support, would never dream of doing themselves and do their very best to protect their loved ones and themselves from?

Why is it so necessary to delegitimise and pathologise a whole gender? It is unprincipled. Who gains from that?

Gday...

Perhaps, as the originator of this discussion, I suggest your comment above is not what the point of the post was ... it was not meant to, in any way, denigrate the male gender, but was simply meant to reinforce the following comment I made later :-

"Please make sure each of you take the responsibility to never condone any excuse by any person for violence against a woman"

It was not the intention to have generated, and aggravated, your point of view. However, too many men do have the feeling that "she was asking for it!" as their defence - we can only change that point of view by ensuring the counter view is represented - just like the "drink and drive - bloody idiot" campaign is slowly changing the "she'll be right mate" attitude to drink driving.

Anyway - once again - let's all get back to enjoying travelling - John

johnq · Guru

John,

I am absolutely certain that neither you nor I, nor the millions of other good Australian men require the admonishment to "never condone any excuse by any person for violence against a woman", or against anyone else for that matter. No do we need to sign oaths to that effect.

I am not 'aggravated' either. But I am appalled by the ease and success of the strategies employed to manipulate public opinion in a certain direction. However, it is worth pointing out that stereotyping anyone who questions an ideology as 'aggravated', 'reactive' or whatever is a rhetorical trick too. Again, not that you might intend it that way.

We need to think carefully about the messages put about and the whos and whys of the ideologies behind them. You might wonder why the message is being directed at men specifically with the implication that it is systemic to the male gender. Men are responsible for violence. That shores up the very questionable concept of patriarchy.

I have read your words carefully and with thought. I ask you to do the same with mine and perhaps Google further, and bounce what I have said off other men. That is the way good men have always met and worked with one another, with respect, attention and consideration. Compare the underlying message with what you know of yourself and other men and of your son/s and father.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

hmm I guess there is nothing further each of us can say then ...

Cheers - John

03_troopy · Guru

Rip and Rosie wrote:
GaryKelly wrote:
Rip and Rosie wrote:
Not one of you men have ever felt fear at walking down the street.

What survey did that come from?
London, United Kingdom: In a poll conducted by the Ending Violence Against Women (EVAW) Coalition in London, 43 percent of young women ages 18-34 had experienced street harassment just during the past year alone. The total sample size was 1047 adults and the poll was conducted in early March 2012.
Indianapolis, USA: In one of the first street harassment studies ever conducted, Carol Brooks Gardner, associate professor of sociology and womens studies at Indiana University, Indianapolis, interviewed 293 women in Indianapolis, Indiana, over several years in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The women were from every race, age, class, and sexual orientation category of the general population in Indiana and the United States. Gardner found that every single woman (100 percent) could cite several examples of being harassed by unknown men in public and all but nine of the women classified those experiences as troublesome.
Canada: Using a national sample of 12,300 Canadian women ages 18 and older from 1994, sociology professors Ross Macmillan, Annette Nierobisz, and Sandy Welsh studied the impact of street harassment on womens perceived sense of safety in 2000. During their research, they found that over 80 percent of the women surveyed had experienced male stranger harassment in public and that those experiences had a large and detrimental impact on their perceived safety in public.
United States: Penn, Schoen and Berland Associates conducted a nationally representative telephone survey of 612 adult women between June 17 and June 19, 2000. From this survey, they found that almost all women had experienced street harassment: 87 percent of American women between the ages of 18-64 had been harassed by a male stranger; and over one half of them experienced extreme harassment including being touched, grabbed, rubbed, brushed or followed by a strange man on the street or other public place. Shattering the myth that street harassment is an urban problem, the survey found that women in all areas experienced it: 90 percent in rural areas, 88 percent in suburban areas, and 87 percent in urban areas. Sadly, 84 percent of women consider changing their behavior to avoid street harassment.

To name a few

You could teach the government spin doctors a few tricks. If only women were surveyed about being harassed while walking down streets, the results won't show any incidents of males being harassed. Of course males are harassed while walking down the street, and in most cases stand a bigger chance of ending up a victim of violence than women. But all this has bugger all to do with the picture.

@Rockylizard - The photo (one of many similar photos) is a sad statement/protest about a crime that happened in India back in December last year, where the victim was gang raped on a bus and subsequently died. My being a male in no way makes me complicit to the crime so I have no reason to feel embarassed about my gender. (feel free to continue yourself though)

The story and similar pics cause much the same reactions in the many different forums when it first appeared online.

Ontos45 · Guru

Rip and Rosie wrote in part:

"..........Sadly, 84 percent of women consider changing their behavior to avoid street harassment......."

Isn't this part of the crux of the matter? I don't have to change to my circumstances, everyone else has to change! To me, bikinis are for the beach not the street and hip hugging jeans are for parties not shopping mails, Or are we so insulated now by pictures from "Walmart" we don't recognise bad taste? I am male and when in a new location, both in Oz and overseas, do not dress or act in a manor that attracts attention from undesirable elements. I change my behaviour to suit the environment I'm in.

Some of the comments on here seem to suggest that many of you have never lived in an environment where YOU have to be responsible for your own actions. Many of the assaults committed up my way (Rockhampton) are committed by youth gangs comprising both male and females and against older Aussies at home and at ATM's. So, we have to change as do women, not blame others and quote surveys as if they are going to change society.

As already said, harassment against women should not be tolerated in any society, but, it happens, so be prepared for it!

Peter