Hydraulic brakes

ajdeleon · Newbie

Hydraulic brakes

PeterD · Guru

Interesting, but did you see the price? On line store

I could not see any mounting instructions. How does the in vehicle controller connect to your tugs brakes? Is it a proportional controller or one of the ancient (and discredited) synchroniser type? Until those questions are answered I would be steering clear of it- at any price. Then you would also have to convert your van to hydraulic brakes (possibly doubling the price.)

ajdeleon · Newbie

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your feedback.

Yeah, but its cheaper than a Hydrastar 1200psi (which I was considering) and I don't need to wire up my new Ranger or change the wiring on my van. According to the blurb on the About Brake Commander page the in-car controller is wireless. So all I need to do is bolt the unit to the van, connect a master cylinder and wire it into the accessories pin. Regarding the controller type, I can't imagine it being anything other than a proportional controller but I guess its worth a call to find out more. I'll let you know what I find out.

Regards,

Andrew

justcruisin01 · Guru

First question, do you have hydraulic brakes on the trailer??

If not then why would you look at this.

At $1000 yor only get the controler & a wireless device,

They refer to disc brakes , if you dont have these then you will need new hubs, rotors, calibars, hyd brake lines & a master cyl.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

JC.

Baz421 · Guru

As usual JC has a good point.

However in my opinion I don't think this device complies with ADR 38 which is the authorative braking document mentioned in Vehicle Standards Bulletin - VSB1 Building Small Trailers (OR MODIFYING) up to 4.5 tonnes ATM.

If you are concerned read this - especially clause 15.2

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/pdf/vsb01_June2009.pdf

and this section of ADR 38 - especially clause 7.1.

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2007C00493

BOTH say that for trailers over 750kg ATM and EXCLUDING over ride brakes all braking systems must be controlled from the towing vehicle and the VSB1 says the driving position.

I also could not see the brake system response times which is also a key part of the ADR.

My 2 cents worth,,, be carefull if you buy.

hako · Guru

Cannot find any reference to this product on Google except 3 sites about Brake Commander from the parent company - parent company (Brake Commander Pty. Ltd.) is registered with ASIC but that is the only trace on the web of this company.?????
Must be a new product. Cannot find warranty details also after a short search.

ajdeleon · Newbie

Ah, sorry JC, I should have mentioned this earlier. I've already converted both axles on my van to hydraulic dics. After our last trip I realized sand, mud, water and electricity don't really mix.

And Baz421, I thought I was the only guy who read this stuff. My van comes in at 2400kg ATM with the cupboards packed, a full fridge and the tanks brimmed, so unless your van comes in over 4500kg ATM I don't think you need to read beyond Part 5 of ADR 38. VSB1 clause 15.2 and ADR 38 Part 5 describes the requirements for trailers up to 4500kg ATM. ADR 38 clause 5.1 (like clause 7.1) does say the system must be designed so that the braking force can be progressively increased and decreased by means of a control signal from the towing vehicle. So as long as their system has an in-car controller with brake override capabilities (which I think is the purpose of the wireless remote), I think the Brake Commander system has it covered. The fact that its wireless just makes it different to the tradional stuff on the market and in my mind very interesting.

In any case, all this feedback is great and its given me a few more questions to ask. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks heaps guys.

Andrew

justcruisin01 · Guru

ajdeleon wrote:
Ah, sorry JC, I should have mentioned this earlier. I've already converted both axles on my van to hydraulic dics. After our last trip I realized sand, mud, water and electricity don't really mix.

Andrew

Now we are getting the story, fair enough,

So at this point how are you operating the hydraulic disc ?

From the early days the overide manual & hydraulic systems didn;t work very well & some times not at all for many people, I know the reason for this & have fixed this problem for a few people.

However with the installation of your disc system you will need a powered activator to produce enough hydraulic pressure, other wise its a bit like your car without the motor running. The old vacume over hydraulic system is going back a bit far in time but it did work ok, I still run this on my old off road camper trailer & built the system my self, as in mating a master cyl to a vacume booster powering a set of front landcruiser drum brakes & works well. I had all the control unit for the tug which came with a van many years ago.

Just a bit of trivial info , doesn't help you but thats what you done back then.

It will be interesting to hear you outcome.

Cheers;

JC.

Baz421 · Guru

Hi Andrew

in response to your last post I offer the following. Yep ADR reading is a chore and very time consuming and complex at times,,, I did it as a job many moons ago and translated Federal/state legislation, ADR's and Aust Standards into Technical and Info Bulletins for Gov't.

I'm not claiming to be 100% right as I havn't comprehensively researched the issue, I'm just providing some references.

However I still think ADR 38 applies (see clause 3.2 for all catgories of trailer from light to heavy - yours is TB category ie NOT TA but <3.5 tonnes ATM) see this,,,,

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/pdf/ADR_Applicability_Summary_T_Group.pdf

I agree section 5.5 says other sections of ADR38 don't apply.

So we've looked at the traler side, now need to look at the towed vehicle side.

In my opinion ADR 31/02 (I ASSUME THIS ADR APPLIES TO YOUR TOW VEHICLE) is the catch all that appears to eliminate this type of Brake Commander system IF it cannot be incorporated into the existing braking system.

5.1.2.1. Service braking system

The service braking system must make it possible to control the movement of the vehicle and to halt it safely, speedily and effectively, whatever its speed and load, on any up or down gradient. It must be possible to graduate this braking action. The driver must be able to achieve this braking action from his driving seat without removing his hands from the steering control.

So you have the info to decide if it's applicable to a road registered vehicle in Oz?????

-- Edited by Baz421 on Sunday 10th of March 2013 05:26:12 PM

-- Edited by Baz421 on Sunday 10th of March 2013 05:32:09 PM

ajdeleon · Newbie

Hi JC, Baz421,

To be honest I didn't know what to expect when I posted. I was really just looking to see if anyone had any experience with the system :)

As for my tug (I'm assuming thats my Avan Eurostar), nothing is operating my hydraulic brakes at the moment. A few weeks back I pulled the electric brakes off and fitted 12" discs, callipers, landcruser 6 stud hubs and hoses. I was all set to buy a Hydrastar 1200psi to operate (or actuate) the hydraulics but then found this system. Thats pretty much were it all stopped.

I'm pretty new to caravaning and the older systems, and I guess thats what drew me to the Brake Commander system. I liked the sound of the electro mechanical actuator and the wireless remote - it sounded hi-tec and I'm I bit of a gadget freak. And after speaking with Craig from Brake Commander today, the system sounds even better so I've order one. It should arrive by the end of the week, and hopefully shouldn't take too long to fit.

Here's the email I received from Craig after our chat. It may shed some light on the system for anyone else interested.

Hi Andrew

Thanks for your interest in Brake Commander.

Brake Commander is mounted to the draw bar of the trailer and a hydraulic Master is attached to the mounting Boss, in your case you will require a 7/8 master cylinder.

Brake Commander is wired into the Earth, Tail Lights, Auxiliary and Brake Light circuits, again in your case you will need to wire in your break-away switch so you fully comply with ADR 38.

Regarding the wireless operation, typical brake events do not rely on the wireless communication. Basically the Brake Commander senses the brake event when power is applied to the Brake Light circuit, on board electronics determine the required line pressure and provide proportional line pressure to the trailers brakes. In addition we incorporated the trailer brake OverRide function into the wireless Remote which allows the trailers brakes to be proportionally controlled by the driver. The button is pressure sensitive, so the harder you press the button, the harder the trailer brakes are applied.

The Wireless remote also provides user feedback, so the driver is immediately warned if something is wrong with the brake system such as leaking hydraulics, bad connections, low voltage supplies or insufficient power levels for Break-Away.

The Wireless remote is also used to define the device setup and allows the drive the adjust the fwd and rev gain settings.

The Wireless Remote connects to the Brake Commander with globally unique addresses, our communication protocol then checks each and every byte of data sent and received to ensure it originated from an approved address (approved addresses are set when the wireless remote is linked to the Brake Commander).

I hope this answer some of your queries. If we can be of any further assistance or you simply wish to discuss this further please feel free to contact us.

Regards

Craig

Regarding ADR compliance, I think it comes down to interpretation of the terminology and the technology available to us, but after looking into the standards further and knowing now how the Brake Commander system works, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't comply. The fact that it provides break-away battery level info to the drivers seat (along with everything else the system is doing) via the remote goes further than my old controller in terms of compliance. Like you Baz421, in my current position at Autodesk as Principal User Experience Designer, I translate ISO, ANSI, ASME, AWS, DIN, JIS, GB, BSI, CSN, GOST and ESKD standards into functionality within our AutoCAD, Inventor and Fusion products. So like you, I'm well versed at interpretting standards (even when not written in english). Maybe we should hook up at the pub next time where out and about, or better still maybe we should start a new post helping others out there with the misunderstanding around ADR compliance :)

Regards,

Andrew

Baz421 · Guru

Happy to meet at pub Andrew,,,, ahhhhh,,, but draw the line at discussing ADR's in house of pleasure.

Yeh I try to point people in the right direction on some things,,,, was on another forum for years but it got very personal where they tackled the man,,, rather than listen to the messenger.

Haven't been on Gn's for that long.

Looks like Craig has supplied the answers for you and you are very capable of doing the job, but I would ensure you get the fitting instructions that state if fitted in XYZ manner,,,, blah blah blah,, you will comply with the applicable ADR's. Just me being very cautious here - I've seen it go horribly wrong.

Also make sure your insurance company is aware of caravan/vehicle changes/modifications, as they will wipe your cover if it doesn't comply AND you need to have the relevant state/territory approvals. You may need a second compliance plate for the van modifications depending which state/territory you are in.

Let us know what state/territory you are in,,, we off in the van on about 1May heading to Vic, NSW and Qld for about 5 months or so.

Cheers Baz

-- Edited by Baz421 on Tuesday 12th of March 2013 10:20:07 PM

Baz421 · Guru

Andrew

I sent you a message a while ago. How is the project going, did the brake unit arrive yet?

Baz421 · Guru

Hi Andrew

I see you are on this forum almost daily,,,,, and you haven't replied to my previous messages.

How is the project going, you were going to keep us up to date.

If there is a problem please advise so others can learn. Either way a response would be good.

Cheers Baz