Mirror vs Camera Confusion

snapper49 · Senior Member

Mirror vs Camera Confusion

Sheba · Guru

Beth54 wrote:
Does the legal requirement to have towing mirrors differ from state to state? I had the idea that it's compulsory for Qld.

That's what I thought too Beth. Then again, I had forgotten about this link, which I put on another Forum some time ago. I think the second paragraph is relevant to the question.

http://www.rvleisure.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=182:measure-up-for-a-caravan-annexe&catid=2:front-page

Cheers,

Sheba.

-- Edited by Sheba on Saturday 15th of December 2012 10:00:34 PM

Cruising Granny · Guru

I think I need towing mirror counselling after today's experience on the Newell Highway. I'm making my way home from Injune, Qld after delivering a job.

A Mitsubishi Pajero was towing a European caravan, and I noticed they didn't have any towing mirrors. They pulled over, so I took the opportunity to jump on my soap box and ask why they weren't using towing mirrors.

"We have two cameras!"

"Oh! But they don't give broad enough vision to the rear", I replied. So I proceeded to check out the rear of the caravan. I looked up. I looked down. I looked around, but couldn't see any mirrors.

So I asked the lady of the couple where the mirrors were.

"Down there!" She responded, pointing to the rear frame of the chassis, UNDER the van.

I was in shock. I just shook my head, walked back to my car and drove away in absolute confusion. Who would advise installing rear view cameras on the chassis? Why would you even consider installing rear vision cameras UNDER a caravan? I regret not taking a photo, but I was just so flabbergasted.

I could only imagine they had a great view under the front tyres of trucks behind them, or the number plate, front bumper and tyres of any small vehicle.

Can anyony please counsel me and enlighten me on the merit of installing TWO rear view mirrors under a caravan?

I see hundreds of caravans being towed around without towing mirrors beyond the standard external rear-vision mirrors. While the Police continuously harass truck drivers about loads and fatigue management, they allow the caravans to pass unheeded, and unprepared.

rockylizard · Guru

Cruising Granny wrote:
I think I need towing mirror counselling after today's experience on the Newell Highway. ~~~
I see hundreds of caravans being towed around without towing mirrors beyond the standard external rear-vision mirrors. While the Police continuously harass truck drivers about loads and fatigue management, they allow the caravans to pass unheeded, and unprepared.

Gday...

I am unable to comment on rear-view cameras on tugs CG - mainly because I have no interest in installing them on my rig. Guess I am just old fashioned and prefer well-set up mirrors.

And I also agree, I see so many vans as well either with no mirrors or mirrors set up so close to the side of the tug, they are not able to see behind them anyway.

There does seem to be no interest in the 'enforcement personnel' to checking/pulling over/detaining caravans. Guess they don't get sufficient points on their "points card" for vans compared to trucks

cheers - John

Delta18 · Guru

Well, personally if I had pulled over for coffee and some woman pulled in and interrogated me and inspected my van without showing a badge I would have put her back in her car & told her where to travel in no uncertain terms.

As you said "you have seen hundreds of vans without external van mirrors", how many of those caused grief to themselves or others by the lack of those mirrors.

Compare this to the grief caused by trucks losing loads or driver fatigue.

I normally do use towing mirrors even though I have cameras but only for the legalities, they are next to useless in my opinion allowing little more vision than standard external mirrors. Unlike mirrors on a truck where the truck cab is the same width as the trailer and the mirrors can easily protrude well beyond the trailer width, a car would need 600mm mirror arms to be useful.

I can't comment on how useful the mirrors / cameras mounted low down are on that particular caravan and, unless you got in their car & looked I doubt you know either. I know I have a camera located just above my towball on the car and that gives excellent rear vision without the van on.

Leave policing to the police I reckon. smile

woolman · Guru

I had a rear view camera and standard Pajero wing mirrors. This provided me with the legistlatively required view, Any vehicle approaching from behind or overtaking on either side. Have been stopped twice by police and deemed to comply once they observed the camera view. It is legal but still depends on the individual tastes as to what option is used.

Neil

Cruising Granny · Guru

The problem was these cameras were mounted UNDER THE CARAVAN on the rear chassis frame.
I had followed these people down the Newell for some time and they had no idea what was behind them. The truck drivers were getting cranky with them, so when they pulled up, I decided to ask about mirrors. The fact I'm driving a pilot vehicle would indicate I have some experience. I'd do more kms in a week than some of these people do all year. I'm an experienced van tower, and have some credibility among all that.
I see too much bad behaviour due to drivers being oblivious to what might be behind them. If they have a 2-way radio we can at least talk to them and instruct them what we need them to do to ensure their safety, and the safe movement of the big load.
Even oversized loads have to have pilots out the back to keep them advised of what's approaching from the rear.
How many loads have you seen leaving a truck?
How many vehicles towing vans have you see without towing mirrors to allow vision to the rear. Cameras don't have a broad enough field of vision, and they are not legally acceptable yet. There's probably a good reason for that.

Beth54 · Guru

Does the legal requirement to have towing mirrors differ from state to state? I had the idea that it's compulsory for Qld.

KFT · Guru

I think every state is the same but happy to be corrected

From memory the rule is that you must be able to see along the side of your caravan/camper/trailer as far as the rear corner. If you cannot see that then you need extension mirrors.

cameras do not qualify as a substitute as yet even though they may provide a good rearward view you cannot see alongside your van because the camera has a blind spot out to the side of your vehicle.

I have aussie truck mirrors that have quite a large head and I find them to be very good when towing although nowhere near as good as what a "west coast truck mirror" would be. I am very reluctant to suggest to SWMBO that I would like to fit a set of real truck mirrors.

staysafe and avagreatchrissy

frank

Nomad246 · Senior Member

I currently have the understanding that a mirror looking rearward along the "sides" is the only legal option, but happy to have a bonafide contradiction to my understanding

Cruising Granny · Guru

Thanks Sheba. Great reference point for anyone. It reiterates my concerns and observations.
Every state has something different, but safety through vision to the rear is very important in every situation.
Better to have them than to create a problem because you didn't.
It's pointless to just sit behind the wheel with foot on accelerator, eyes to the front, brain in neutral, and no knowledge of the rear. Crashes happen behind as well as in front, and it pays to always be aware of what is travelling behind you, and be ready to take evasive action if you have to.

Delta18 · Guru

Legislation takes a long time to catch up to and take advantage of technology.

For those that can remember, how long after electric Flippers, (the little lighted arm that popped out of the centre pillar) & Flashers were fitted to vehicles did it become unneccessary to roll your window down in the rain to give a Hand Signal.

One day mirrors will be superfluous. Until then we gotta have them even with the far superior cameras.

Cheers Neil

Shogun · Senior Member

As a retired policeman with 20 years experience, i have a couple of thoughts

1. Granny, how do you know they didn't know what was behind them, did you ask them?

2. Cranky truck drivers....wow thats nothing new. Maybe a few less chemicals in a few of them might alleviate that.

3. I have been told by so called "professional" truck drivers on many occasions how well they drive, even after I have seen them speeding, tailgating and overtaking illegally.

4. Just because someone drives for a living doesn't make them a good driver. (not suggesting you Granny)

5. I would be careful about confronting other drivers out there, you never know how they might take it.

As for police targeting truck drivers more than caravanners etc, maybe the truck drivers deserve it more :)

Have a great and safe Christmas everyone.

Brett

thomas01 · Senior Member

Shogun,

I agree.

I have legal towing mirrors but still can't see everything behind me until I go around a bend.

If all drivers acted responsibly, ie:the passer and the passee, (if you all get my drift), then road trauma would rarely be an issue. Everyone is too quick to blame someone else when things don't go 100% their way. Defensive driving instructors will tell you that being delayed by slow-moving vehicles may add up to 3 minutes to a 100km trip. Where's the problem???

As for UHF radio. When the trucking fraternity learn that not everyone shares their limited vocabulary ie: not every word begins with an "F" or a "C" , then maybe others will listen to their frequency and assist their smooth passage past our slower vehicles.

I realise not all forum members will agree but when you are on the road a lot, you realise how bad some drivers really are. (Both travellers and professional drivers).

Regards
Thomas01

Gerty Dancer · Guru

We have a rear camera, and its helps to see whatever is close behind, and the clearview mirrors do a great job of providing vision along the sides of the van. No worries.

But the OP was about rear cameras mounted UNDER the back of the van... has anybody ever heard of this? What good would that do?

I can see why you were gobsmacked Granny.

-- Edited by Gerty Dancer on Sunday 16th of December 2012 04:10:04 PM

ozjohn · Guru

Delta18.

Open the link I posted and look at the pics and you'll see why mirrors are required.

www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2006L02663/Download

Open the Legislative Instrument PDF file 0.9MB

Pics are in clause 15.2.2.6

-- Edited by ozjohn on Sunday 16th of December 2012 04:23:18 PM

-- Edited by ozjohn on Sunday 16th of December 2012 04:24:01 PM

ozjohn · Guru

Rear view cameras are a fantastic aid when towing, but Mirrors are required by law to see down each side if the vehicle and trailer.

Cheers, Ozjohn.

ROAD RULES 2008

REG 297
(2) A driver must not drive a motor vehicle unless the driver has a clear view of the road, and traffic, ahead, behind and to each side of the driver.

Also view the pics on this site

www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2006L02663/Download

Section 15

15.2.2.6

Further Ref ADR 14/02

brickies · Guru

Well I have two bob each way I have a camera but still use the mirrors has old habits are hard to change , Camera is handy the boss use it to make sure we don't run over anybody while backing , I have found the camera is not has good has mirrors for reversing into a site because of to wide of field , I like the camera but would not like to not have my mirrors

ozjohn · Guru

While rear view cameras are a terrific aid they do not replace the legal require to have mirrors to see down the side of the vehicle and trailer.

Cheers, Ozjohn.

ROAD RULES 2008 - REG 297
(2) A driver must not drive a motor vehicle unless the driver has a clear view of the road, and traffic, ahead, behind and to each side of the driver.

Check out this site:

www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2006L02663/Download

(Look at the pics in Section 15) including 15.2.2.6

Ref: ADR 14/02 2006

Delta18 · Guru

ozjohn wrote:

ROAD RULES 2008
REG 297
(2) A driver must not drive a motor vehicle unless the driver has a clear view of the road, and traffic, ahead, behind and to each side of the driver.

Towing a caravan is illegal then as I defy anyone to be able to see what is immediately behind them with towing mirrors only. I can clearly see behind me with my camera and a passing vehicle is well into view of my standard mirrors before it goes out of sight of the camera.

Even trucks cannot see immediately behind them or they wouldn't need signs saying "If you can't see my mirrors then I CAN"T see you!"

brickies · Guru

If the vehicle travelling behind you has the correct distance behind you with good mirrors you will see whats behind you , And I have driven trucks and with truck mirrows you can see whats behind you , has a driver you should never drive so close that you can not see the mirrors of the vehicle in front of you

ibbo · Senior Member

KFT wrote:
I think every state is the same but happy to be corrected

From memory the rule is that you must be able to see along the side of your caravan/camper/trailer as far as the rear corner. If you cannot see that then you need extension mirrors.

cameras do not qualify as a substitute as yet even though they may provide a good rearward view you cannot see alongside your van because the camera has a blind spot out to the side of your vehicle.

I have aussie truck mirrors that have quite a large head and I find them to be very good when towing although nowhere near as good as what a "west coast truck mirror" would be. I am very reluctant to suggest to SWMBO that I would like to fit a set of real truck mirrors.

staysafe and avagreatchrissy

frank
A fair and just post Frank.Covered it all in a pure and simple way that is easily understood.Return Christmas Greetings to you and yours.Cheers Ibbo.

sandsmere · Guru

We have got good mirrors and can see any vehicle that is within the legal distance behind .

If they are very close to the rear of the van , we can't see them . However , if you are watching ,

you can see them as they are approaching , so know they are there .

I can see the value in rear cameras to , and may get one fitted . Would still keep the towing

mirrors though I reckon .

ibbo · Senior Member

Delta18 wrote:
ozjohn wrote:

ROAD RULES 2008
REG 297
(2) A driver must not drive a motor vehicle unless the driver has a clear view of the road, and traffic, ahead, behind and to each side of the driver.

Towing a caravan is illegal then as I defy anyone to be able to see what is immediately behind them with towing mirrors only. I can clearly see behind me with my camera and a passing vehicle is well into view of my standard mirrors before it goes out of sight of the camera.
Even trucks cannot see immediately behind them or they wouldn't need signs saying "If you can't see my mirrors then I CAN"T see you!"
Cameras were designed for reversing,not for an aid and distraction on your dash..The sign if you can't see my mirrors means that if you are too close to the rear of a truck etc you cant be seen.

gypsy rover · Senior Member

I have a rear camera and wouldn't be without it now. A small car tucked up right behind me cannot be seen in the side mirrors, but is easily sighted in the camera monitor. The side mirrors cover the spots that the camera doesn't, so I have a pretty good view all round. I would recommend that everyone fits a rear view camera, as it makes driving on busy roads so much safer and lets the driver know exacty what is sitting up his/her behind. Although I must admit, it is a bit intimidating when all you can see in the monitor is the grille of a dirty big truck barrelling along behind you at 100 kph. cry

Cheers!

Chris

liddle · Senior Member

Gerty Dancer wrote

"But the OP was about rear cameras mounted UNDER the back of the van... has anybody ever heard of this? What good would that do?"

To add to the confusion of mirrors CG was talking about mirrors and said ,quote

<<So I asked the lady of the couple where the mirrors were.

"Down there!" She responded, pointing to the rear frame of the chassis, UNDER the van.>>

And later on

<<Can anyony please counsel me and enlighten me on the merit of installing TWO rear view mirrors under a caravan?>>

Also confused

Liddle

-- Edited by liddle on Sunday 16th of December 2012 11:51:01 PM

jules47 · The Happy Helper

Mirrors and rear view cameras should be used in conjunction, I think - that is only sensible - the camera on the motorhome allows us to see someone coming up on us and going to pass, then can follow it with the mirrors as it comes alongside - everyone is safe.

With extended mirrors though, one thing I have noticed is that some caravanners don't take them off when driving around towns and cities, some of them protrude a long way out, making it a bit squeezy sometimes when passing on narrow roads.

ibbo · Senior Member

Delta18 wrote:
Well, personally if I had pulled over for coffee and some woman pulled in and interrogated me and inspected my van without showing a badge I would have put her back in her car & told her where to travel in no uncertain terms.
As you said "you have seen hundreds of vans without external van mirrors", how many of those caused grief to themselves or others by the lack of those mirrors.
Compare this to the grief caused by trucks losing loads or driver fatigue.
I normally do use towing mirrors even though I have cameras but only for the legalities, they are next to useless in my opinion allowing little more vision than standard external mirrors. Unlike mirrors on a truck where the truck cab is the same width as the trailer and the mirrors can easily protrude well beyond the trailer width, a car would need 600mm mirror arms to be useful.
I can't comment on how useful the mirrors / cameras mounted low down are on that particular caravan and, unless you got in their car & looked I doubt you know either. I know I have a camera located just above my towball on the car and that gives excellent rear vision without the van on.
Leave policing to the police I reckon.
A gentleman,I think not.Keep your comments a little less personalDude.

Delta18 · Guru

ozjohn wrote:
Delta18.
Open the link I posted and look at the pics and you'll see why mirrors are required.
www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2006L02663/Download
Open the Legislative Instrument PDF file 0.9MB
Pics are in clause 15.2.2.6

-- Edited by ozjohn on Sunday 16th of December 2012 04:23:18 PM

-- Edited by ozjohn on Sunday 16th of December 2012 04:24:01 PM

Sorry Ozjohn, I can't see pics in this clause.

" 15.2.2.6. Where the lower edge of an exterior mirror is less than 2 m above the ground when
the vehicle is loaded to its technically permissible maximum laden mass, this
mirror must not project more than 250 mm beyond the overall width of the vehicle
measured without mirrors."

Now you bring up this clause, to show how silly it is, my car is 1760mm wide (without mirrors) my van is 2400mm wide.

It is impossible for me to comply with this clause and still be able to see the rear corners of my van. I need another 640mm just to be the same width of the van , more to be able to see down the side but am allowed only 250mm.

As I said above, I fit towing mirrors when towing to comply with the "need to use" rule but I would be breaking the above clause as they are more than 250mm. I use the rear view camera to see what is behind me. My screen is fitted over the internal mirror so it is no more "distraction" than the existing interior mirror.

Cheers Neil

Beth54 · Guru

I have the strap-on kind of towing mirrors, and find them good. I can see down both sides and behind.

Unless the vehicle following sits right up the rear end where it's often impossible to see them. And if I have to stop suddenly, a small vehicle is going to be in a mess as son has added a heavy bumper on the back to help with weight distribution. biggrin It wouldn't stop a larger one from making a mess of my Lulu though. hmm

I think a camera on the rear would scare the bejeezus out of me if it were a monster truck on my a*#!

I'd only want one as a hitch helper.

The mind boggles at the cameras on the chassis though. confuse