The Journey before the Journey

Valderi · Veteran Member

The Journey before the Journey

dave06 · Guru

well done frank you are on the way, sounds like you have done plenty of homework, one thing though, dont short change yourself on the bed, a good nights sleep is one of the most important things when you are on the road, if you make the bed a permanent one and have it lift on gas struts from the rear for storage access underneath ( I assume you still have the barn doors fitted) it will save you the pain of making the damn thing everynight, if you run the plumbing now you could also install an exterior shower, you should have ample power from that array and storage, would you email a copy of your internal design, not that I am better than you or wish to downgrade your work, but I may (or not ) have a couple of ideas, look keep the forum up to date with your progress, it is not hard to convert or build a motorhome/camper, built a motorhome on the back of a toyota hi-lux ourselves back in the late seventies, helped with the construction of quite a few others, just be sure you have the swear jar handy, plenty of bandaids and keep a good sense of humour, any thing you wish to ask dont be shy you have my email address (I'm not an expert but I do have experience) . wish I could be there with you, I agee with the flat rack idea, the top of the commuter is quite rounded, is that to be clipped on to the gutter ( as in roof rack style ) or bolted securely to the roof itself, anyway great times ahead, well done you

-- Edited by dave06 at 14:45, 2008-09-27

Pat747 · Newbie

may be prudent to find a competent solar technician
the suggested design is not good and not the optimum for your needs
no need to fit a flat rack. that sounds more like a money making thing
if the roof is not highly curved direct mounting is preferential
solar panels do not blow off

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Hi Frank.
I'm a DIYer (including the solar system). I am not sure what a 'flat rack' is, but you do need an air gap under the panels to keep them cool (unless you use the Unisolar self ahhesive ones that would fit the curve of the roof. But they are more expensive.)
There are a few pics on our link, but if you want to ask any questions at any time, please feel free to do so. We will help if we can. Good luck, it is worth the effort.

Cheers,
Peter

Basil Faulty · Guru

Frank, as usual I agree with Dave.... especially as far as beds go, if you get a good nights sleep then you are miles ahead. Also go for the biggest fridge you can get even if you have to rob some space, for years I used to cart the Waeco around as a freezer until we got this new GP with a BIG fridge. Most of your food is kept in the fridge and they are more efficient if they are full.

dave06 · Guru

good point Basil, hadn't thought of that, also compressor fridge over thermal, operates a lot better in the tropics and the heat of the outback, (30 degs and above and thermals basically dont work) should be enough power from your array. THIS IS WHAT THE FORUM IS FOR, collective knowledge gained over many lifetimes, concentrated to one place and metered out. for the GOOD OF ALL. brag factor low, help factor high

-- Edited by dave06 at 15:15, 2008-09-27

Valderi · Veteran Member

dave06 wrote:

well done frank you are on the way, sounds like you have done plenty of homework, one thing though, dont short change yourself on the bed, a good nights sleep is one of the most important things when you are on the road, if you make the bed a permanent one and have it lift on gas struts from the rear for storage access underneath ( I assume you still have the barn doors fitted) it will save you the pain of making the damn thing everynight, if you run the plumbing now you could also install an exterior shower, you should have ample power from that array and storage, would you email a copy of your internal design, not that I am better than you or wish to downgrade your work, but I may (or not ) have a couple of ideas, look keep the forum up to date with your progress, it is not hard to convert or build a motorhome/camper, built a motorhome on the back of a toyota hi-lux ourselves back in the late seventies, helped with the construction of quite a few others, just be sure you have the swear jar handy, plenty of bandaids and keep a good sense of humour, any thing you wish to ask dont be shy you have my email address (I'm not an expert but I do have experience) . wish I could be there with you, I agee with the flat rack idea, the top of the commuter is quite rounded, is that to be clipped on to the gutter ( as in roof rack style ) or bolted securely to the roof itself, anyway great times ahead, well done you

-- Edited by dave06 at 14:45, 2008-09-27

Hi Dave

Thanks for your input, it seems you have investigated the Toyota Commuter a bit, the top is very rounded. There is less than 2 feet flat base to work on, on the top of the roof. The 'roof rack' will not be clipped to the gutter because it will be too easy to pinch so I am going with a more permanent structure, this will be either bolted to the roof or bolted to the gutter with anti-theft screws.

As to the bedding arrangements. I originally wanted a permanent bed but found the space in the commuter doesn't allow for it. So, my plan includes a couch for daytime that will be converted to a bed at night. This will allow for a proper inner-spring mattress rather than foam bed (I'm a big man) and I agree a good night sleep is essential. My place will be highly customised, without too much standard equipment, so that it will meet my exact needs.

I will be putting up photographs on my website as I progress through this conversion.

Cheers
Frank

Valderi · Veteran Member

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

Hi Frank.
I'm a DIYer (including the solar system). I am not sure what a 'flat rack' is, but you do need an air gap under the panels to keep them cool (unless you use the Unisolar self ahhesive ones that would fit the curve of the roof. But they are more expensive.)
There are a few pics on our link, but if you want to ask any questions at any time, please feel free to do so. We will help if we can. Good luck, it is worth the effort.

Cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter

The Unisolar panels are a bit too pricy for me. I have chosen the Sharp 80 watts solar panels.

I was thinking of one inch clearance between roof and solar panels for air circulation, will that be enough?

'Flat rack' is my terminology. I knocked up some quick drawings explaining the curvature of the Toyota Commuter and the need for a housing rack (flat rack) for the solar panels. The link to view these drawings is listed below. The roof is so curved that the panels would be sitting in fresh air without some sort of housing to keep them attached to the roof. This is what prompted the concern over the panels being blown off.

http://www.fwillustrations.com/index.php?p=1_13

Cheers
Frank

-- Edited by Valderi at 20:19, 2008-09-27

-- Edited by Valderi at 20:20, 2008-09-27

dave06 · Guru

sounds like you have your head screwed on the right way frank, the commuter is the next size up from the long wheel base that we have, so I know it well, we used to have one as a bus for the local special school and I was a vollunteer driver for a number of years, good choice for a camper, we have done a LOT of miles in ours and I can tell you they dont come much tougher, as I stated before if you need advice, just yell. inner spring mattress, good idea, keep away from those foam ones. anti theft screws for the solar array, a must

Valderi · Veteran Member

Pat747 wrote:

may be prudent to find a competent solar technician
the suggested design is not good and not the optimum for your needs
no need to fit a flat rack. that sounds more like a money making thing
if the roof is not highly curved direct mounting is preferential
solar panels do not blow off

Hello Pat and welcome to the forum.

I would agree with you on the flat rack being a money making enterprise if 1) the installer did this on site, thereby squeezing more money out of me; or 2) suggesting a fabricator and gaining a monetary kickback. However, since he did neither he stands to gain nothing from this being done. The roof is highly curved and I acknowledge the suggestions of the solar installer, which will prevent me from losing the solar panels.

Cheers
Frank

Valderi · Veteran Member

Basil Faulty wrote:

Frank, as usual I agree with Dave.... especially as far as beds go, if you get a good nights sleep then you are miles ahead. Also go for the biggest fridge you can get even if you have to rob some space, for years I used to cart the Waeco around as a freezer until we got this new GP with a BIG fridge. Most of your food is kept in the fridge and they are more efficient if they are full.

Hi Basil

Thanks for your reply. I agree a good sleep is the most important thing. As I mentioned to Dave I am going for an inner-spring mattress (so now I will need an alarm clock to wake me up!). Any suggestions about the bed are appreciated.

The biggest fridge is the 108 litre Waeco fridge. Just a few questions to the forum.

1) How much clearance is required at the back of the fridge for air circulation.

2) Is it advisable to screw on external vents near the rear of the fridge to improve air circulation.

Thanks for your input on the fridge size.

Cheers
Frank

Pat747 · Newbie

mount panels lengthwise side by side
form up side with folded sheet aluminium
get 85w panels for $600 and get extra 20w for free
you will still need to find a professional to set up wiring, regulator and batteries correctly for compressor fridge
your description is typical disaster from an amateur goose supplier with disastrous lack of basic knowledge

Wombat 280 · Guru

Frank, while shopping around at shows look at the bedding arrangements in some of the Maui Motor Homes they seem to have some type of device that takes the bed up to the roof when not required and lowers it over the other furnishing at night , could be a pace saver . Drove a Kombi Camper for a few years and folding and making the bed each night gave me the S*%# well and truly, many a night slept on the ground outside.

Don't even consider anything other than a compressor fridge if going into the outback where the temps at extremely high . A heat exchange unit in high ambient temps is like having an ashtray on a motorbike .

If possible make it a swing mounted compressor unit to take the hard knocks. I think Ingels make the very type you may be looking for.

Your Rig sounds great if you have pics would like to see the results at various stages

-- Edited by Wombat 280 at 21:09, 2008-09-27

-- Edited by Wombat 280 at 21:11, 2008-09-27

dave06 · Guru

frank, the more clearance you can give the fridge at the rear the better it will like it, typically,( I cant find the absolute correct information,) from memory they need a minimum 50 mm, an outside vent would be good but I dont really think necesary with a compressor fridge but I know it is a must for a thermal as you must vent the burnt gas, if you mount it to the 50 mm clearance then a little fridge extractor fan would also help mounted flush or just proud of the top of the fridge cabinet, available at caravan supply stores, not very dear and dont take much to install or run, it just takes the excess heat away from the compressor motor. if you have a caravan store near you just ask them to let you know clearance details to be on the positive side. seen those bed setups, looks great, we leave ours "made up" all the time, all activity is outside, cooking, eating, entertaining, not mating though, gave that up years ago scared the wildlife too much

-- Edited by dave06 at 21:11, 2008-09-27

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

I was thinking of one inch clearance between roof and solar panels for air circulation, will that be enough?Frank, 25mm (minimum, more where the curve is) should be ok. They don't need to be absolutely horizontal if it is not convenient.
I would prefer bolts and nyloc nuts (or even pop rivets) to self tapping screws (as in your pic) personally, so that they don't rattle out.

I have always been (and still am) a compressof fridge fan, but the latest "T" (tropical rated) absorption gas/electric ones are performing much better than they did historically. They will reduce your need for solar power (by using gas), but they are very hungry on 12V.
If you stick with compressor, consider a remote compressor model. These will allow you to seperate the 'fridge cabinet from the compressor/condensor package and to add exra insulation around the cabinet, reducing power consumption.

An absorption fridge will almost certainly need good external vents. Well designed ventilation is critical to achieving good performance.
Good air circulation is also important for the Danfos 35 compressor packages too, but if they are remote, it is possible to vent them inside. Ours are. It means that there is less opportunity to get dust inside, but on the down side, the heat from the condensor stays inside the vehicle - good in winter, not so good in summer.

Cheers,
Peter.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Bit more on fixing the panels to the roof. Should have thought about this before.

I have hinged ours. Not so that we can adjust the angle, but so that we can clean the dirt and leaves out that collect underneath sometimes.
Another fixing method would be to use Sikaflex 252. Glue an aluminium angle piece to the roof and attach the hinge or panel to that with pops. This needs no holes in the roof. If you make sure you use the correct primers and prep for the 252 it will be very secure, better than bolts or security screws.

Cheers,
Peter

Pat747 · Newbie

Vitrifrigio remote compressor or built in compressor fridges are not in the race compared to Waeco CR models. Between the two fridge brands Waeco give less trouble and Waeco are superior quality construction. Waeco CR is the only tropical rated compressor fridge in the market place.
The fridge should be mounted as close to body work as possible. The same vents used on Dometic fridges should be used on compressor fridges. In some cases an extra fan controlled by the Danfoss module is adviseable in certain installations. Full mounting and installation instructions come with the Waeco CR.
If you do vent from the inside, you need to leave space below the fridge on the floor for inlet air and seal off the top and use a roof vent with a 125mm diameter tube to a Dometic round roof vent.
In your size vehicle it would not be prudent to vent the hot air inside.
Compressor fridge ventilation is as important as absorption fridge ventilation.

dave06 · Guru

I suggest a trip to an fridge installer or an email to waeco australia to get clearances and venting issues sorted, I have had a look on waeco's website and a lot of things that are being said here is not correct, please get expert advise, the remote compressor idea is great IF YOU HAVE THE SPACE, we dont unfortunately, love to put one in, but cant mount a matchbox any where on my vehicle and I guess your's will be the same, I agree with what peter is saying, the leaves and crap do build up under the panels, and are a pain to get out, but with the curviture of your particular roof I dont think that would be a problem IN YOUR PARTICULAR CASE, if you use the glue and pop rivet method please use stainless pops otherwise vibrations MAY snap them off and keep an eye on any fixing for movement I.E. enlargement of pop rivet holes over time, unscrewing or generally coming loose, I prefer nylocs but thats me, I am not up with the solar thing, I have repaired a few systems and worked on others but apart from basics I know very little, oh I can calculate wattage needed versus power usage times daylight hours divided by the number of wallabies watching at the time, but dont ask me any more than that, from the little I know the system you have been quoted on looks to ME to be more than adequate to run what YOU need, the advise you have been given came from a proffesional installer I assume so stay with that

Basil Faulty · Guru

Solar powered exhaust fans are a good idea, I will be putting on on the side of the new Van. It will be at the back of the fridge and will suck out hot air to assist the fridge to work. I've used them before and they are very good for this sort of application and not overly expensive at around $70 each and being all stainless steel they dont get afected by the UV like the plastic ones.
http://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?item=92107&search123=solar&intAbsolutePage=1

Pat747 · Newbie

dave06 yes there is some terribly dodgy advice been given, hence why I posted to put it right.
Basil solar powered exhaust fans on the side are not the best option as the solar will only work when the solar panel is in the direct sun. If you were going to mount it on the top of your rig with a 100mm tube to the solar powered exhaust fan it would work well. However if you go to the trouble to use a 125mm tube to the roof you would not need a fan as the convection is superb and signifanctly improves performance.
An 80mm 12v powered fan with 50C thermostat that runs as needed is the preferential fan to use. This will allow to the fun to run at night when needed. At night is the time absorption fridges play catchup and in many ways more important than during the day. Suitably mounted fan besides helping the performance of the fridge it significantly reduces gas consumption.

If you want to use a solar powered fan mounted on the side, this unit from AwardRV with remote solar panel may suit your needs better.
http://www.awardrv.com.au/specials.html
Deals Direct also have the same unit and postage with them is normally cheaper
http://www.dealsdirect.com.au/p/solar-powered-ventilator/
there are fifty six other traders-online selling the same unit.

dave06 "from the little I know the system you have been quoted on looks to ME to be more than adequate to run what YOU need, the advise you have been given came from a proffesional installer I assume so stay with that" obviously you must know next to nothing as it is a disgusting setup for his needs. The person who is flogging him the gear is not up to back yard standards as a solar installer let alone a 'professional' installer. The solar installer/reseller is a solar charleton. Reason you see so many disgusting RV solar setups.

Off to Japan tonight, Sth Korea, Singapore, Darwin, Sydney be back Tuesday.

Basil Faulty · Guru

I would caution against the solar fridge vent things with the seperate solar cell as they are a bit too "toy like" in quality. the others surprisingly do work well on the side behind the fridge when the sun is shining on the wall which is really when you need the space behind the fridge cooled down.... They are also very good and should be mandatory on the roofs of all vans to ventilate a van stored in the sun.

dave06 · Guru

oh well there ya go, thirty years of travelling and using various means to power ones lifestyle and using various solar doohickeys plus repairs to different systems and I end up knowing nothing, tis a sad situation indeed, well I did say I didnt know much about them, but I thought I knew a little, basil did you happen to see an article a few years back involving the use of computer cooling fans in the back of fridges, they connected them to the thermostat or something so when the fridge ran the little fans also ran

Valderi · Veteran Member

Wombat, I will be down at the Leisurefest at Sandown so will check out everything for any further ideas including sleeping arrangements and fridge options. Currently interested in either the Waeco CR65 or CR110 just space is an issue. I will be putting up pics as I progress.

Peter, good point about the rubbish collection underneath the solar panels. If this becomes a problem I can do some minor modifications later on. Thanks for all the info. I would like to thank you for informing me of the Sikaflex 252 glue. This I am very interested in and can see it being of use during my conversion.

Basil, I agree with you regarding the vents and was looking at that very model you linked to when at the RV accessory store.

Dave, you are spot on with the space, there won't hardly be room for me never mind anything more than I have already planned. That is why the fridge is such an issue though I could squeeze some more space out for the bigger fridge and will be having a good look at the different sizes and exactly what I need when I go to the Leisurefest next weekend.

As to the power system my installer and I agreed on this will meet my present needs and allow for any minor additions. He completely understands my needs and spent a lot of time with me on the best set up.

Pat, thanks.

Cheers
Frank

-- Edited by Valderi at 20:36, 2008-09-28

-- Edited by Valderi at 20:44, 2008-09-28

Basil Faulty · Guru

dave06 wrote:

basil did you happen to see an article a few years back involving the use of computer cooling fans in the back of fridges, they connected them to the thermostat or something so when the fridge ran the little fans also ran

yes My first Jayco had a thermostatic fan in it when supplied. I thought it was a good idea except that IT WAS NOISY....People used to ask did the fan have to run all night LOL....

rabmail · Member

Pat747 wrote:

obviously you must know next to nothing as it is a disgusting setup for his needs. The person who is flogging him the gear is not up to back yard standards as a solar installer let alone a 'professional' installer. The solar installer/reseller is a solar charleton. Reason you see so many disgusting RV solar setups.

Pat747, could you enlighten us with your knowledge please. What is so wrong with the setup being discussed. Please provide full details.

I have a similar solar setup on my Troopy and it works well.

dave06 · Guru

Dick, I have been holding off on that exact question myself, I have repaired quite a few setups like this (not identical but very similar) ( they dont like trees mainly) and also talked to a lot of very knowledgeable people who agree this system would provide more than enough power to supply the needs required by the average traveller, I cant fault the description in any way it seems (to me with my limited knowledge) to be quite a well thought out setup, how one could even assume to know the gentlemans standards is beyond me. I sort of thought this was some sort of joke from a person with access to the internet to supply a little bit of preamble just to attack the forum, possibly an insider, I didnt want to be the bad guy, but to make these assumptions is in itself very silly and I think unfounded and unwarranted, I too would like to see the credentials and the reason why the system in question is so fallable

twobob · Guru

Pat474

What an ambush, with no substance, to say

"may be prudent to find a competent solar technician
the suggested design is not good and not the optimum for your needs
no need to fit a flat rack. that sounds more like a money making thing
if the roof is not highly curved direct mounting is preferential
solar panels do not blow off"

What solar panels cannot be removed in 100kmh winds???

"mount panels lengthwise side by side
form up side with folded sheet aluminium
get 85w panels for $600 and get extra 20w for free
you will still need to find a professional to set up wiring, regulator and batteries correctly for compressor fridge
your description is typical disaster from an amateur goose supplier with disastrous lack of basic knowledge"

Goose supplier, or Goose poster - have you proven which? and something for nothing 85w + 20w bonus??

"The fridge should be mounted as close to body work as possible."

IS THAT RIGHT??? well I will need a little explanation with some facts on thermal dynamics and heat transfer, as they relate to the materials in used and the heat load in the working environment - **** were these even mentioned?

You come across, as having some knowledge, you leave as a waste of time - which is it?

rabmail · Member

Valderi wrote:
I will be staying on free camp sites only so SOLAR POWER is needed. I found a very good solar panel installer who has helped me with my power needs, I knew the ampage I would be using per day and we went from there. So this is what we both agreed on for my power needs, 4 x 80 watts solar panels, 2 x 110 amp deep cycle batteries, 30 amp display solar regulator, battery charger 12v 40-a, remote display with cat5 cable, ceiling led lights, fuse bay, smart relay 180amp, and a 50amp Anderson plug from the alternator. My solar panel guy also suggested to have a permanent flat rack fitted on the roof then the solar panels can be secured to it and will not blow of when travelling. Amazing how nobody else I went to picked that up as a problem as the Toyota roof is curved the wind would get right under those solar panels and kick them off quick smart.

Hi Frank

I think your Solar setup described above will easily meet your power needs. I am not sure what the 50amp Anderson Plug from the alternator does but assume this has been thought out.

I have a Troopy with 2 x 80 watt panels on the front of the Roof Rack and running through a PL60 Solar Controller into 3 x 120ah AGM Battery's. These Battery's are also connected to the vehicle via a RedArc relay so when the vehicle is running the charge is coming from the alternator. When I am stopped and the battery voltage drops to 12.6v then the Solar system will start to charge the batterys.

I carry two 70L EverKool Fridges, one running as a Fridge/Freezer and the other running as a fridge. With my setup I have no problems staying in one place in good sunshine for an indefinate period. I do carry a Honda Generator and a CTEK charger but have seldom had to use it.

Thats my experience.

Valderi · Veteran Member

Hi Rabmail.

Thanks for understanding my solar needs, the extra power will be handy Im taking along a play station 2 and when I get on that dam thing (I have no discipline) hours have gone by.

My electrical knowledge is zero, but what you mentioned about the charge coming from the alternator to the auxiliary batteries when the engines running, the Anderson plug plays a role in this procedure, as I said my electrical knowledge is zero Im the type of person switch on the power, if not working break out the candles, I leave the electric bits and wiring to the experts..

It sounds to me your system works well for your requirements, well done.

Thanks for your input.

Cheers Frank.

Dave, Twobob, Rabmail, Basil, Wombat, Peter and Margaret

Its great holding a good intelligent conversations with you people, thanks you have helped me lots.

Cheers Frank.

dave06 · Guru

frank you are talking to people who use similar systems to yours, take their advice, I dont understand the anderson plug, I would have thought that a redarc battery isolater would go there, at least thats where mine is, but I bow to the greater knowledge of the installer, pam747 if the fridge is playing "catchup" at night then your meat is already off, and the solar fan will run whether it is in direct sunlight or not it will be a question of speed, once again showing YOUR limited knowledge

-- Edited by dave06 at 13:44, 2008-09-30