Lead crystal batteries

Ger08 · Senior Member

Lead crystal batteries

macka17 · Guru

I Think I'd like the "use of" a 100a model for long term performance
"testing" on a solar rig.
Just for free advertising of course hey.

Maybe even two off.

Similar pricing to LiPo but who knows,
time will tell.

There is another I was reading about
More for land based. A Liquid which can retain\store.
Lots of amp's.?
Can't remember where. I'll look.

markf · Senior Member

Ger08 wrote:
I was looking at a possible move to lithium batteries but in my research stumbled across lead crystal batteries. They seem to offer oustanding performance at what seems to be a good price point. Has anyone had any experience with them?

No experience but...

The lead crystal battery technology was first patented in 1979 which indicates to me that either all of the major battery manufacturers have been asleep and missed it which I reckon is VERY unlikely or the technology just didn't deliver. I'll go with LiFePo4 when my current crop of AGM's finally kark it.

Cruising Cruze · Guru

They are still an fair amount more than the AGM batteries
I did see them yesterday at Ebay at the JTS site 100aH for $495

Cheers John

Ger08 · Senior Member

Thanks for all the responses- I have done a bit more research and seems that the main benefits, faster charging and deeper discharge are certainly real. Yes they do cost marginally more than an AGM battery but I am starting to lean heavily towards these lead crystal batteries. I can't justify the cost of lithium batteries [whish I could] but I can now see the advatges of LC

macka17 · Guru

Do the LiPo battery's have same habits of Liion.
Bursting into flames. Overheating and going bang.
Regularly. if you don't act just so, with them.
and you have to be careful which you buy and how you store.
charge and use.
Their convenience is size to power, end of story.

I use 18650's a lot, Probably 30 or so.
A mate bought a stack of used Laptop battery's and stripped them.
His boat runs Li Ions now. Completely.
Lots of patience though to set up.

Lipo's ???
A std size AGM and wet cells do fine job at fair price.
98% use them. Why bother,
I like my genny for soooo many other things than just charging battery's.

You'd have to be a certain type to want to use them methink's.

Bagmaker · Senior Member

All lithium based batteries can be termed li-ion, Macka, its generic.
Li-Po is typical of the hobby battery for RC aircraft, light and powerful but a bit dangerous and has the firey history
LiFeP04 has no tendency to explode or burst into flame at all. Thats why its used for RVs.
Cheaper if used daily, dearer if used occasionally.

Jaahn · Guru

Ger08 wrote:
Thanks for all the responses- I have done a bit more research and seems that the main benefits, faster charging and deeper discharge are certainly real. Yes they do cost marginally more than an AGM battery but I am starting to lean heavily towards these lead crystal batteries. I can't justify the cost of lithium batteries [whish I could] but I can now see the advatges of LC

Hi Ger08 smile

I would be happier to buy some newer technology battery if I could find some people who had some, and they had some nouse to evaluate them against the previous batteries they owned. That is how I usually research my new moves.

With Lithium batteries I have been able to do that. And on here there are persons who will tell you what they did and how they compared. Seems all good bar the cost. Not too many down sides if you know what you are doing, except for the cost.

But I have never found one person who is using lead crystal batteries. NOT ONE ! I am also on an alternative energy form where people use batteries to live off. Not finding anyone makes me suspicious because the advantages seem good but all the information is only found on the web ??? Perhaps they are good but without more hands on information I will let others do the testing first. confuse

Good luck Jaahn

Bagmaker · Senior Member

There are a couple of rare posters on the CMCA forum who have tried them but not updated any information in a few months.
No news is generally good news
Specs can be found here
www.alphaenergy.com.au/Lead-Crystal-Batteries

T1 Terry · Guru

The differences between LiFeP04 and any lead acid battery, lead crystal included.
Winston Lithium advantages
All 100% of the advertised capacity can be used and still maintain over 12v under load
Useable capacity while remaining above 12v under load is double that of lead acid
Weigh compared to useable Ah as determined above is 1/3rd that of lead acid batteries
The capacity is Ah is measured at the 2hr rate, 50 amps for 2 hrs from a 100Ah battery while still maintain 12v
The physical size is smaller so more capacity will fit in the same space
A single cell can be replace rather than the whole battery if damaged
A cycle life of 1,000 cycles delivering 100% of the advertised capacity before the capacity reduces to less than 100% of the advertised capacity
Over 7,000 cycles and still retain 70% of the advertised capacity

Please post the comparable specs for lead crystal so they can be viewed in an apples with apples sense. Here are some specs leadcrystalbatteries.com/media/wysiwyg/Datasheets/12V/Lead_Crystal_Batteries_6_CNFJ-100.pdf note the graph and tables regarding discharge rate to cell voltage over time. The 1.85v per cell means the end voltage rested is 11.1v, not under load, even at the 10 hr rate that is not 10 amps but rather 9.48 amps so it can't even deliver the C10 rate is suggests is available.... clever wording aimed at making the reader assume a 10hr discharge rate means a C10 rating. Now look at the cycle life is you do discharge them to 100%, a bit of an eye opener, yes that is better than most lead acid batteries, but 525 cycle before the capacity drops to less than 60% of the advertised capacity is still only half the ability of the quality lithium battery and it still retains 100% of the capacity.... is there really any comparison?
As far as price, at the moment if you are paying more than $8 per Ah @ 12v for the lithium battery without the management system ask what the additional price gives you.......

T1 Terry

-- Edited by T1 Terry on Tuesday 20th of June 2017 11:57:55 AM

PeterD · Guru

macka17 wrote:
Do the LiPo battery's have same habits of Liion.
Bursting into flames. Overheating and going bang.

No they don't. However they are nowhere as forgiving to mistreatment as GEL, AGM or Crystal batteries. Be very careful about how you charge them.

PeterD · Guru

macka17 wrote:
Similar pricing to LiPo but who knows,
time will tell.

When I last priced them they were only twice the price of good AGMs not 4 - 6 times like lithiums. Someone else may have more up to-date prices but I doubt that lithiums will have come down in price to match them.

macka17 · Guru

Thank's Pete.
ALl too bloody exxy for me.
Little AGM or couple wet's with panels do me fine.

Watching Footie tomorrer??.

See if those Blues can finally get a team together that can constantly

make a difference hey.

They can have a coupla seasons while our oldies finishing retiring out. and the young 'uns come up.

Got my bottle of malt, and bar of chockie (or twoooo).

55in box. Recliner. Earphones in.

Nobody to disturb me. 'EAVEN... On a stick.

-- Edited by macka17 on Tuesday 20th of June 2017 09:26:16 PM

Muskat55 · Veteran Member

Are these the same as lead/carbon batteries developed by CSIRO? Lead/Carbon batteries are commercially available I believe, allow good depth of discharge and impressive number of cycles and lifespan. I've got more than 6 years out of Fullriver AGMs with no evidence so far of any degradation in performance. I might consider new battery technology when these give up the ghost.

T1 Terry · Guru

Muskat55 wrote:
Are these the same as lead/carbon batteries developed by CSIRO? Lead/Carbon batteries are commercially available I believe, allow good depth of discharge and impressive number of cycles and lifespan. I've got more than 6 years out of Fullriver AGMs with no evidence so far of any degradation in performance. I might consider new battery technology when these give up the ghost.

You have owned them for 6 yrs or had 6 yrs use out of them? What are the signs you look for to determine if there is any loss of performance from the batteries? Most people don't realise their batteries have died until they suffer a few bad solar days and suddenly the TV won't work or even the lights stop working so they are totally dead.

T1 Terry

Muskat55 · Veteran Member

6 years use continuously running two compressor fridges charged from 400w of solar, no doubt there would be some degradation of performance, as nothing lasts forever, but at this stage all good.

Mike Harding · Guru

Terry: you frequently sing the praises of LiFeP04 batteries - and that's fair enough - but I'm interested in hearing your opinion of their negative aspects?

Ger08 · Senior Member

Without wishing to debate the various pros and cons of each type of battery, there is no doubt that lithium are outstanding in terms of performance etc but are just simply too bloody expensive, if they were more reasonably priced they would no doubt dominate the market. I've found that in order to justify lithium I need a degree in economics and electrical engineering and possibly voodoo economics.
I am starting to look at LC as a real alternative to AGM and the price difference is not that great eg a 100a/h LC is about $520 - it may or may not be the answer but it's certainly worth looking at and my Redarc charger etc will charge it and I don't need to invest a huge amount to see if it's going to work.

I appreciate all the responses and it's a great forum keep the topic going so we all learn.

Cheers

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

I wander if this is same or similar to the batteries I was told about a few months back ? They said silicon ? May have wires crossed ?? Lol

Muskat55 · Veteran Member

It appears no one knows whether this is the same technology as the CSIRO lead carbon battery.

PeterD · Guru

Muskat55 wrote:
It appears no one knows whether this is the same technology as the CSIRO lead carbon battery.

Lead crystal batteries were not developed by the CSIRO.

Muskat55 · Veteran Member

In that case, lead carbon would appear to be a good alternative to lithium and lead crystal at a more affordable price.

Muskat55 · Veteran Member

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-200AH-NARADA-LEAD-CARBON-SUPER-CAPACITOR-2960xCYCLES-BATTERY-SOLAR-MARINE-/262702634838

T1 Terry · Guru

Muskat55 wrote:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-200AH-NARADA-LEAD-CARBON-SUPER-CAPACITOR-2960xCYCLES-BATTERY-SOLAR-MARINE-/262702634838

Did anyone actually read the specs and understand what they mean?

C10 rate the 200Ah battery will only deliver 165Ah till completely flat, so half that till the 50% capacity is reached as long as the discharge rate is not greater than 20 amps, unfortunately no chart to show terminal voltage under load so it's still speculation that 50% capacity is available at a 20amp load for 5 hrs and still hold 12v while under load. Discharge like a super capacitor.... hardly.

Cycle life of 2960 cycles and claimed to be more than 4 times that of lead acid so they accept normal lead acid will only last for 740 cycles.... but again, no capacity remaining after the 2960 cycles and no specs regarding the requirements to get that many cycles.

Weight: 79.5kg, so more than the weight of 2 x 100Ah AGM batteries, hardly a recommendation for RV use.

Have a closer look and it is nothing but a standard lead acid battery with carbon added to the lead plate, same explosive gas problems, same corrosion problems so the same sulphated plate problems. How many reincarnations are we going to see for the same 19th century technology.

Nearly as bad as the Bromide flow battery, it's on its 5th rebirth since 1967 yet no improvement to the basic problems, just an electronic management added to work through all the requirements to keep it alive. Still huge, still very heavy, still requires a total discharge every 4 days so 2 units are required for continuous supply from solar storage, still more than double the price for lithium, still less than 70% efficient, still the same problems with potential pump failures bringing the battery to its knees, still the poor temp range without it shutting down.

As yet there has still been nothing new on he market that can compete with LiFeP04 for RV house battery and nothing really comparable for long term house storage either. Keep in mind, the Tesla PowerWall is not an LiFeP04 chemistry battery, it is the fire prone Nickel Manganese Cobalt oxide chemistry but granted it does have a heap of safety circuits inside that fancy cover..... still not sure I'd put one on the wall of my house though furious

T1 Terry

-- Edited by T1 Terry on Friday 23rd of June 2017 02:06:26 PM

T1 Terry · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
Terry: you frequently sing the praises of LiFeP04 batteries - and that's fair enough - but I'm interested in hearing your opinion of their negative aspects?

(1) Continually putting up with nonsense from experts who have never actually seen, used or really understand that L-ion in regards to battery chemistry is like saying mammal in regards to the dominant population of planet earth.

(2) The number of jump on the band wagon sellers who really have about as much idea as those listed in item (1)

(3) The difficulty in finding genuine information because of the likes of those mentioned in item (1) pouring out their dribble like they are experts clouding the information put out by those that have actual hands on experience using this chemistry for RV electrical energy house storage.

(4) Relating to item (3) as a result of item (1), a serious lack of understanding regarding the very simple limits that need to be observed if a long cycle life is expected.

(5) Getting people to forget all they think they know about battery requirements and accepting the new rules for LiFeP04 chemistry battery. Once that is achieved there are no further problems regarding negatives.

(6) Just like lead acid batteries but to a much greater degree, a large capacity battery can not be built using multiple lower capacity batteries linked in parallel without serious problems occurring later in their cycle life. Just because "every body" joins 2 or 3 or 4 12v lead acid batteries in parallel doesn't mean it is the proper way to build a large capacity battery, just look at how the old home power battery bank was built and how the early telephone exchange batteries were built, single cells to build capacity then connected in series to build voltage.

T1 Terry

Muskat55 · Veteran Member

Terry obviously has a bee in his bonnet reminiscent of the old Holden vs Ford crap when I was a kid or Apple vs PC. A friendly discussion about the merits of battery technology becomes a flame war. The dismissal of lead carbon technology is arrogant in the extreme. Unfortunately drum beaters seem all too common on most forae.

T1 Terry · Guru

Muskat55 wrote:
Terry obviously has a bee in his bonnet reminiscent of the old Holden vs Ford crap when I was a kid or Apple vs PC. A friendly discussion about the merits of battery technology becomes a flame war. The dismissal of lead carbon technology is arrogant in the extreme. Unfortunately drum beaters seem all too common on most forae.

Hardly even similar to the Holden v Ford rivalry or Qld v NSW at rugby league, Apple v PC is a different matter as each has strong points but price and available software can also be brought into the argument.

You are welcome to put up a defence argument for the lead carbon technology, but it must be based on genuine specifications and not advertising nonsense. If it is a genuine contender for a comparison the lithium batteries then evidence based is the only way to present your return argument, simply attacking the person and using the old flame wars argument is a poor substitute for a facts based defence.

So, as they say, the ball is back in your court

T1 Terry

Muskat55 · Veteran Member

You miss the point completely, the original thread was has anyone had experience with lead crystal batteries? It was the first time I had heard of them, and asked whether it was the same technology as the CSIRO battery, unfortunately I mentioned I had a good run with AGMs, my bad. The discussion was not about the merits of Lithium batteries. I think that lithium has its place where weight and size is an issue, in RVs as you pointed out. On a houseboat or off grid this is less of an issue, so the alternative technologies to lithium still have a place. By the way as you well know there are a number of non commercial sites that discuss alternatives to lithium batteries in a dispassionate way. Just use Google.

-- Edited by Muskat55 on Friday 23rd of June 2017 04:39:09 PM

Mike Harding · Guru

Well Terry, I was trying to be constructive because everything has a downside and I hoped you would share your knowledge with us.

You have previously stated you have a financial interest in them but, hopefully, you can take off your salesman's hat for a while?

For example: my understanding is LiFeP04 batteries don't tolerate over-discharge well and will be seriously damaged by such whereas although lead acids don't like over-discharge they do recover from it, in general.

Perhaps you would care to comment on that?

T1 Terry · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
Well Terry, I was trying to be constructive because everything has a downside and I hoped you would share your knowledge with us.
You have previously stated you have a financial interest in them but, hopefully, you can take off your salesman's hat for a while?
For example: my understanding is LiFeP04 batteries don't tolerate over-discharge well and will be seriously damaged by such whereas although lead acids don't like over-discharge they do recover from it, in general.
Perhaps you would care to comment on that?

Sure. There is a condition called reverse charging that every battery chemistry can suffer and it kills the cell no matter what chemistry battery is used. Reverse charging occurs when a cell reaches 0v yet the cells either side still have some capacity left. When the load is applied the current leaves the terminal of one cell and enters the next cell through the opposite polarity terminal, + to - or - to + which ever way you see the current path through the battery.... not gunna start that lesson here :lol:

In a normal operating battery where all the battery cells are with their safe voltage range the load, say 20 amps, leaves the first cell at the voltage that cell is operating at, the next cell adds its operating voltage and the same 20amps comes out at the voltage of cell 1 plus cell 2 and so on through the battery until the 12v is reached at the end.

If one of these cells has been fully discharged it doesn't have the voltage at 20 amp to add to the string yet the 20 amps is till going to pass through that cell. Now the voltage at the negative terminal is higher than the voltage at the positive terminal in that cell, for the current to pass through the negative terminal becomes positive and the positive becomes negative and the 20 amps passes through the cell, this is reverse charging at work.

Now we hopefully follow that reverse charging can occur in any battery once it is fully discharged I can move on to the effects for different chemistry batteries.

Lead acid flooded cell, the plates shed material and this falls to the bottom of the case, once enough builds up it shorts between the plates and that cell is now shorted out and dead, it will not recover. In the short term all that happens is some material is lost so some of the capacity is lost and this cell becomes the most likely to reach zero volts before the others, basically the first step into the grave. While this happening there is quite a bit of heat generated so buckling of the plates will occur if the problem continues for an extended period.

Lead acid AGM, similar to flooded cell reaction but far less electrolyte so the heating up is much quicker resulting in buckled plates and bulging cases and this lowers the level of electrolyte in the cell so less to full immerse the plate so the top area of the plate starts to sulphate and degrade, faster steps to the grave

Gel electrolyte lead acid battery, there really isn't a path for the material that has been shed from the plates so it has problems getting to the sump of the cell and ends up impregnated in the gel and the effects the gels ability to fully contact the plate surface resulting in additional loss of capacity. The heating causes bubbles to form between the gel and the plate making contact even worse, a very fast run to the grave.

LiFeP04, once the cell voltage drops below 1v the chemistry within the cell starts to self sacrifice the active material trying to generate voltage until all the active material is used up. The heat generated boils the electrolyte and if enough pressure is produces the vent cap will release some and that element of the electrolyte is lost for ever. A short dip into this area causes active material loss and therefore the ability to release high levels of lithium ions into the electrolyte while charging causing the voltage in that cell to be higher than the voltage in the other cells within that battery pack. The heating also causes increase plating of a material found in the electrolyte also making it harder for the lithium ions to enter or leave the active plate. Over voltage charging the effect is the other way around and the graphite plate gets a coating that makes it difficult for the ions to settle into the one of the many holding spots within the graphite material. This is seen as an increase of internal cell resistance, it only increases the steps into the grave if the cell voltage goes outside its safe limits.

A long term trip at either 0v so reverse charging occurs or long term over voltage charging will kill the cell either from loss of electrolyte or plate coating. The heat also seals the fine pores in the separator sheet that holds the plates apart, if the lithium ions can't pass through then the cell can neither be charged or discharged, it's dead.

This is the reason why I keep on about cell voltage monitoring and a cut off if any cell goes outside those limits, you could do the same thing with a lead acid battery if you could get to each cell terminal and this would greatly increase the cycle life of these batteries as well. Just part of the reason any good battery no matter what the chemistry is made up from individual cells that you can access and therefore monitored, a battery inside a seal case is a time limited unit and the weakest cell will result in the whole battery becoming unfit for purpose.

Hope that helped

T1 Terry