To lead or not to lead

oldtrack123 · Guru

RE: To lead or not to lead

pinballpat · Veteran Member

Here we go Again, Pedantic Princesses, as I said before some poor Caravanner visiting a friend overnight and wanting to plug in to have a bed side lamp or What ever after retiring to the caravan from an entertaining Night inside the house, assuming that the 10 amp power point that the van plugs into has an appliance operating on 1 of the other 6 power point that the 16amp House Circuit Breaker supplies power to TELL ME WHAT THE HELL IS THE WORST THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN I am sure it is not going to be Fire and Brimstone that some of these people are Promising, Again that word Malarky comes up, Some people just want to be Sensationalists and even though they quote regulations and standards I would hazard to say that they have NO practical LIFE experience with Electricity, If we were to listen to them they would tell you that you can not draw 16Amps through a 10amp plug for 30miliseconds or else your van and lead is reduced to a lump of burnt carbon bodies scattered all over the place insurance assessors tripping all over each other basically a cataclysmic world event as a matter of fact I would say that if you were to have a total short circuit plugged into a 10 amp power point and switched it on you would momentarily draw approx. 80Amps odd until the 16Amp circuit breaker popped. Now if any of you Preachers of Fire Death Brimstone have trouble understanding this please feel free to ask questions and I will try to explain it to you in a way you might understand. I hate to sound so condescending but really GENTS

oldtrack123 · Guru

pinballpat wrote:
Here we go Again, Pedantic Princesses, as I said before some poor Caravanner visiting a friend overnight and wanting to plug in to have a bed side lamp or What ever after retiring to the caravan from an entertaining Night inside the house, assuming that the 10 amp power point that the van plugs into has an appliance operating on 1 of the other 6 power point that the 16amp House Circuit Breaker supplies power to TELL ME WHAT THE HELL IS THE WORST THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN I am sure it is not going to be Fire and Brimstone that some of these people are Promising, Again that word Malarky comes up, Some people just want to be Sensationalists and even though they quote regulations and standards I would hazard to say that they have NO practical LIFE experience with Electricity, If we were to listen to them they would tell you that you can not draw 16Amps through a 10amp plug for 30miliseconds or else your van and lead is reduced to a lump of burnt carbon bodies scattered all over the place insurance assessors tripping all over each other basically a cataclysmic world event as a matter of fact I would say that if you were to have a total short circuit plugged into a 10 amp power point and switched it on you would momentarily draw approx. 80Amps odd until the 16Amp circuit breaker popped. Now if any of you Preachers of Fire Death Brimstone have trouble understanding this please feel free to ask questions and I will try to explain it to you in a way you might understand. I hate to sound so condescending but really GENTS

OOh how clever you think you are but sadly you are not very clever at all, but very stupid, certainly a sad case of a little knowledge being dangerous

All your theory misses the real reason why such are not approved & also you totally miss the problem area .Your above post indicates that because it is totally irrelevant as far as the real reasons are concerned

Perhaps you should try to convince the Standards Authorities, the various state govs & all those QUALIFIED people who input to the Standards that only you know better

You obviously know so little, that you do not know that the electrical standards are the work very qualified people in the relevant fields

Before each update, the proposed changes are available free of charge for electrically qualified people to make comment on those changes

Now grow up or when you grow up & perhaps become a qualified electrician you may understand why:

[a] such a lead cannot be purchased

Anyone found selling one would be in deep S#*t & fined for selling non approved electrical products

No responsible electrician will make one up for you

[c] such a lead could never be approved for a number of reasons

[d]If found by a responsible electrician he should destroy it

If found with one, by a gov electrical inspector, you would have a lot of questions to answer!!

the first being where did you get it

[e]why do you think so many makers make a fully approved adapter

[f] All the various states "Electrical Acts &, Regulations" state that only devices fully approved to the relevant Australian Standard shall be used

[g] just what are your qualifications to comment on the subject?

Certainly, your little spiel about circuit breakers protect from fire show you do not understand the real reasons for many electrical fires

Just a bad case of a little knowledge being very very dangerous & by the way, I am electrically qualified & really do know the reasoning behind the various regulations

suggest you spend a lot of time reading your state's Electrical Acts & regulations before you preach ignoring them

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 20th of September 2018 07:49:26 PM

Cbigtez · Member

As a " fully qualified electrician " it is quite funny to read all of these nonsense answers.

yobarr · Guru

Cbigtez wrote:
As a " fully qualified electrician " it is quite funny to read all of these nonsense answers.

Hi Terry.The sad thing about what you refer to as nonsense answers is that some poor,unsuspecting,reader may act on the suggestions put forward? Cheers

pinballpat · Veteran Member

Well Lets hope this post has finished along with all the Unjustified Scare Mongering and some down earth practical solutions to a small problem has been had.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Perhaps we could look at it this way .....

one must not exceed posted speed limits
one must not exceed set alcohol limits when driving
one must always stop at a stop sign
one must always give way at a give way sign
one should not turn a corner without indicating one's intention and giving way to other traffic
one should not deviate from a lane without indicating one's intention and giving way to other traffic
one should not stick one's hand in boiling water
one should not stick one's hand on a hot stove
one should not consume caustic soda
one should not use a circular saw without a working guard
etc

However, many, many ignore those 'rules/regulations/legislation/common sense'. Are there any consequences? Of course there are but that does not mean the 'rules/regulations/legislation/standards' are foolish or unnecessary - it is sheer luck that many, many more are not irreparably damaged, injured or killed.

If one wants to ignore the various MANDATORY standards that our world operates within, and under, then one, as an INDIVIDUAL, surely can ... but one must then consider that they have NO RECALL if things go wrong and they suffer consequence.

Cheers - John

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Ohh . Generator.

G n E · Member

Well! This will be the first and last question i ask... lol
But thankyou for all your comments!

Mike Harding · Guru

G n E wrote:
Well! This will be the first and last question i ask... lol
But thankyou for all your comments!

You'll get an almost identical set of responses on any Australian caravan forum I suspect.

Jaahn · Guru

G n E wrote:
Well! This will be the first and last question i ask... lol
But thankyou for all your comments!

Hi G n E smile

Sorry to hear you say that. This is an open forum hmm anyone can answer. BUT the answer you need is actually there in the comments. You just need to sift out the wheat from the chaff just like you normally do in real life wink

If you like to do the dodgey job and not care about the rules etc then the way to do that is there. If you like to do the right thing and follow the usual rules and standards then that answer is there also smile Your choice really.

Jaahn

oldtrack123 · Guru

G n E wrote:
Well! This will be the first and last question i ask... lol
But thankyou for all your comments!

Hi Greg

Don,t be put off because of the one or two who don't understand why the rules & regulations exist.

You can get good reliable information on this & other forums.

BUT unfortunately, you will have some who:

[a] do not understand the reasons why we have Mandatory Standards for 240V electrical equipment[The basic reason is to protect lives & property]

Think they know it all, when in fact by their posts, know very little

[c] Have a perverse sense of humour & think they are having fun

[d]or simply do not know their own limitations

[e]Or are simply trolls!

So readers will always have to try & sort the wheat from the chaff on any forum, as some do frequent other forums, but not necessarily under the same name

I hope to see you come back when /if you need advice or help

-

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 22nd of September 2018 09:03:11 PM

pinballpat · Veteran Member

G n E wrote:
Well! This will be the first and last question i ask... lol
But thankyou for all your comments!

Hi GnE It No Doubt has been a Rocky Road With all the confusing Responses, if I understand this correctly you want to stay at a residential property overnight in you travels so if the property does not have a 15amp socket for you to plug into then well you need some sort of Adapter to use their power the way I see it you will have to carry one with you as no doubt we all do so your choices appear to be 2

1: Go and buy the $200 Current limited Leads

2:Get some Cheap Psychical Adapter and do what you should always do anyhow be very Vigilant about the Amount of Current you are Drawing

Please do pop up again and let us all know about the way you tackled your first plugin at a residential property

oldtrack123 · Guru

pinballpat wrote:
G n E wrote:
Well! This will be the first and last question i ask... lol
But thankyou for all your comments!
Hi GnE It No Doubt has been a Rocky Road With all the confusing Responses, if I understand this correctly you want to stay at a residential property overnight in you travels so if the property does not have a 15amp socket for you to plug into then well you need some sort of Adapter to use their power the way I see it you will have to carry one with you as no doubt we all do so your choices appear to be 2
1: Go and buy the $200 Current limited Leads
2:Get some Cheap Psychical Adapter and do what you should always do anyhow be very Vigilant about the Amount of Current you are Drawing
Please do pop up again and let us all know about the way you tackled your first plugin at a residential property

Hi GnE

You obviously have a few options

You can take the advice of someone who only thinks they know, or someone who is fully qualified & knows & understands the reasons why a simple cable with a 10A plug & 15A socket is not, & never will be approved for such use.

That is why you cannot buy such a lead, and it is against every states' "Electrical regulation " for a non-licensed person to make up any 240v lead.

[1] is the only approved option, a fully approved adapter such as the Amphibian but beware, there are several similar devices on the market which do not fully comply.

Even the Ampfibian has two versions f

One, fully weatherproof to the required standard, & approved for use in cps, showgrounds, & at home

[2]The other where the unit itself shall be under permanent weatherproof cover [such as a garage, not any form of tempory cover. ]As for the above poster suggestion

[2]Get some Cheap Psychical Adapter

He does not seem to be aware, that you will not find any such adapter available for sale in Aus, simply because only adapters that meet the Standards are allowed to be sold in Aus

Such a device fails to meet the relevant standards in many ways. [if required I could list those Standards &/or relevant excerpts]

Perhaps he is suggesting to get an electrician to make one up. ? Any electrician who made up such an adapter for you would be putting his license at risk if found out.

Similarly, any non-qualified person who made one up would be breaking regulations that apply in every state. Only licensed persons shall carry out 240V electrical work

Now it is up to you which way you want to go

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 23rd of September 2018 11:24:05 AM

oldtrack123 · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
Perhaps we could look at it this way .....
one must not exceed posted speed limits
one must not exceed set alcohol limits when driving
one must always stop at a stop sign
one must always give way at a give way sign
one should not turn a corner without indicating one's intention and giving way to other traffic
one should not deviate from a lane without indicating one's intention and giving way to other traffic
one should not stick one's hand in boiling water
one should not stick one's hand on a hot stove
one should not consume caustic soda
one should not use a circular saw without a working guard
etc
However, many, many ignore those 'rules/regulations/legislation/common sense'. Are there any consequences? Of course there are but that does not mean the 'rules/regulations/legislation/standards' are foolish or unnecessary - it is sheer luck that many, many more are not irreparably damaged, injured or killed.
If one wants to ignore the various MANDATORY standards that our world operates within, and under, then one, as an INDIVIDUAL, surely can ... but one must then consider that they have NO RECALL if things go wrong and they suffer consequence.
Cheers - John

Hi John

Well said

I might add that unfortunately, the consequences can involve other innocent parties.

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 23rd of September 2018 01:18:47 PM

Mike Harding · Guru

I assume this extension lead complies with the regs - so is it OK if I plug a fan heater and a kettle into this 10A outlet:

https://www.bunnings.com.au/arlec-2m-piggy-back-extension-lead_p4420175

oldtrack123 · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
I assume this extension lead complies with the regs - so is it OK if I plug a fan heater and a kettle into this 10A outlet:
https://www.bunnings.com.au/arlec-2m-piggy-back-extension-lead_p4420175

Totally irrelevant to the op's Question & situation

The package will have the approval on it! And your post again indicated you lack any comprehension of why there are limitations on use of such products.

A product can meet the Standards for some types of use but not for others!

Next, I suppose you will post a double adapter!!

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 23rd of September 2018 01:21:36 PM

TheHeaths · Guru

Rockylizard,

Please don't bring logic and good sense into this.

oldtrack123 · Guru

TheHeaths wrote:
Rockylizard,

Please don't bring logic and good sense into this.

No, that would not be appreciated by some biggrin

Mike Harding · Guru

Hmmmm... oldtrack123 - perhaps you would explain:

Why it is safe, using this extension lead, to draw 20A from a 10A
outlet providing the appliances are in (say) my kitchen.

But it is unsafe to draw (say) 5A from that same 10A outlet using a
15A to 10A converter cable to power a caravan.

However, you would agree, it would be safe for me to run a 10A
extension lead from said 10A outlet through the window of my caravan
and power a fan heater.

And yet you argue that this makes sense!? :)

oldtrack123 · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
Hmmmm... oldtrack123 - perhaps you would explain:

[a]Why it is safe, using this extension lead, to draw 20A from a 10A
outlet providing the appliances are in (say) my kitchen.

But it is unsafe to draw (say) 5A from that same 10A outlet using a
15A to 10A converter cable to power a caravan.

[c]However, you would agree, it would be safe for me to run a 10A
extension lead from said 10A outlet through the window of my caravan
and power a fan heater.

And yet you argue that this makes sense!? :)

First, unless you look @ all the possible conditions that could occur, you will not understand but,

[a] You could not draw 20A from that outlet in the average house, now if you are as smart as you think you are, you will know why!!

Who has made such a ridiculous statement ? what limits that load to 5A?? if it is connected to a caravan??

[c] I doubt that I have ever said that would be safe

In fact, it would be very poor practise unless precautions were taken to ensure the cable could not be damaged by being jammed in the door or window, as such could damage /deform the cable insulation leading to a fire or electric shock

These are the type of factors that have to be considered when drawing up the rules standards & regulations

It is not a question of cherrypicking a situation which may be ok .

It is a question of ensuring ALL users or people who may be involved have risks minimized as far as practical.

I will repeat for the benefit of all.

The rules /Standards & regulations are not there to make life hard, they are there for the same reason we have traffic regulations.

That is to protect lives & property, not just of the person who does it, for other innocent parties as well [just like road rules]

I might further add that they are not drawn up by someone who just considers he has a little knowledge but by very experienced people in the relevant fields.T hey are based on actual past problems or readily forseen problems.

The draft rules are issued for comments by the industry [that includes manufacturers & qualified persons in that field.

The drafts are freely available to interested parties, free of charge. I have personally been involved over many years, in making comments on behalf of my then employer

The public is protected by manufacturers & electrical workers having to follow the Standards as a whole

YES, THEY DO MAKE SENSE, when they are looked at as a whole! & that is the only way they should be looked at!!!

Not cherry picked for an escape.

I will not bother replying any further to your posts on this subject, as you seem to think you know all the answers

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 23rd of September 2018 03:37:00 PM

pinballpat · Veteran Member

Mike Harding wrote:
Hmmmm... oldtrack123 - perhaps you would explain:

Why it is safe, using this extension lead, to draw 20A from a 10A
outlet providing the appliances are in (say) my kitchen.

But it is unsafe to draw (say) 5A from that same 10A outlet using a
15A to 10A converter cable to power a caravan.

However, you would agree, it would be safe for me to run a 10A
extension lead from said 10A outlet through the window of my caravan
and power a fan heater.

And yet you argue that this makes sense!? :)

Hmmmm.... oldtrack123 perhaps you would Explain to me why you keep claiming that you are Certified when you will get absolutely no argument from ME there is no Doubt in my mind that you are Totally Certified

oldtrack123 · Guru

pinballpat wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Hmmmm... oldtrack123 - perhaps you would explain:

Why it is safe, using this extension lead, to draw 20A from a 10A
outlet providing the appliances are in (say) my kitchen.

But it is unsafe to draw (say) 5A from that same 10A outlet using a
15A to 10A converter cable to power a caravan.

However, you would agree, it would be safe for me to run a 10A
extension lead from said 10A outlet through the window of my caravan
and power a fan heater.

And yet you argue that this makes sense!? :)
Hmmmm.... oldtrack123 perhaps you would Explain to me why you keep claiming that you are Certified when you will get absolutely no argument from ME there is no Doubt in my mind that you are Totally Certified

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 23rd of September 2018 04:41:18 PM

-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 23rd of September 2018 04:42:07 PM

Webmaster · Guru

I think I'll close this now. Please note that this forum is a place to discuss options and ask for advice - and although many members are knowledgeable on many topics, there are no guarantees that advice given here is safe and would be appropriate for your particular situation. It is always worth getting a licensed expert to provide first hand advice on matters involving electrics and wiring.