I'm very much a 'newchum' on the subject of power requirements for life on the road, and have been devouring old postings about solar & batteries & setups. I was going to post this in reply on one of them but hesitated to do so because of the ages of the postings. So I figured to throw my "two bob's worth" in on a new posting for all those who may not be aware.
One thing I do know with absolute certainty is that, unlike lead acid batteries which deteriorate if regularly discharged below 85% capacity (yes, even 'deep cycle' batteries will not put up with it forever even though they are designed for deeper discharge cycles), Lithium Batteries deteriorate faster if regularly charged over 85% of their capacity. About once a month or so is good for them, but day to day is not. They also shouldn't be regularly allowed below around 15 - 20%. They develop dendrites (little 'veins', kind of like plant roots) internally which gradually reduce their capacity over time. They can also (in short, fast charging cycles) relatively quickly penetrate the separator between the cathode & the anode resulting in a short which will kill the cell and can even result in a spontaneous fire.
One of the posts I read the OP had a problem with his/her lithium battery only 4 years old discharging rapidly. This is possibly the cause. Some lithium battery packs can be repaired by replacing an individual cell, but whether this can be practically done with bigger batteries I don't know. I'd also hazard a guess that if the problem is occurring with a battery several years old it probably wouldn't be practicable anyway as other cells in the battery may well be getting close to the same problem.
For what it is worth.
Whenarewethere said
09:58 AM Aug 9, 2025
Some of the cheap lithium batteries are using C grade cells, so the battery is not going to be brilliant to start with.
Lead acid batteries have a total life watt/hours. If you add up the total wattage of low depth discharge, compared to high depth discharge. It's about the same total watt hours.
& the battery is not going to fall off a cliff at the end of its total watt hours.
I have 4 small lead acid batteries. Another use for them is jump starting wich I have done for other a number of times, another one a week ago! 1040 amps for 5 seconds, or 360 amps for 5 minutes.
Mostly they run the fridge which is about 15AH per 24 hours.
Scubadoo said
10:35 AM Aug 9, 2025
Languid wrote:
... One thing I do know with absolute certainty is that, unlike lead acid batteries which deteriorate if regularly discharged below 85% capacity (yes, even 'deep cycle' batteries will not put up with it forever even though they are designed for deeper discharge cycles), Lithium Batteries deteriorate faster if regularly charged over 85% of their capacity. About once a month or so is good for them, but day to day is not. ...
I much prefer actual RV users experiences to the screeds of theory and workshop or laboratory based data out there.
Our 300Ah 4 cell Sinopoly LiFePO4 battery pack has now survived 11 years of full-time travel spending perhaps 95% of its life above 85% SOC.
According to some of those theorists we must be very, very lucky.
I capacity test the battery at C/10 each November 5.
At the last test in Ah the battery had "deteriorated" from the original 315 to just 299!
Insignificant? It is to us.
When the battery eventually fails either tomorrow or 15 years from now it will simply be replaced with whatever suitable and affordable energy source is available at the time.
Maximum 14.1V from any charge source. 12.2V battery disconnect. Never triggered in daily use.
The battery has also started the 3.9l turbo diesel truck engine a few thousand times. "BMS" circuitry is necessarily external.
Battery daily cost to date if the battery dies tomorrow= 50 cents.
Absolutely insignificant compared to other travelling expenditure.
-- Edited by Scubadoo on Saturday 9th of August 2025 10:37:15 AM
Peter_n_Margaret said
04:15 PM Aug 9, 2025
The OKA has a 30Ah, 800CCA, 4.5kg, LiFePO4 crank battery. It lives at 14.2V except when not driving when it is at about 13.4V resting.
Cheers,
Peter
Stevejaz said
10:53 AM Nov 22, 2025
In 5 years of annual travel to escape winter, about 6 months a year on average followed by 2 years of no travel, we have bought 2 new 140ah lead acid batteries every second year, recycling the batteries from motorhome to A Van. Been contemplating Lithium for a while, weight being a big factor. We are just returning from a 1 month short trip to test things out and intend going to Karumba next year.
"Load tested" the by then 5 year old batteries in A Van with electric bike charger and small inverter. Spat the dummy in seconds LOL.
Put in a 120ah Kings Lithium. Old Kings solar regulator is Lithium compatible. Also put in a 40 ( or was that 50?) amp Victron regulator and got a 360Watt Kings Blanket. That thing is the GOAT! Have a 200 Watt which I have never seen produce more than 115 so was sceptical of 360. Thought 250 would be good enough but I've seen it put out 370 (Victron Shunt)
Been watching the batteries in Motorhome and undecided re upgrading them to Lithium or getting one more trip out of them.
Also contemplating what size battery to put in it. The 120ah's will go into existing boxes but like the idea of single 300ah.
Bottom line though is ability to charge and other than several solar panels, we use a generator with built in 30 amp Victron mains chargers. gives a pretty good load of about 800 Watts on a 2.2 Honda and who wants to run a generator for more than a couple of hours?
Bottom line is 120ah in each is probably plenty. Unless of course we want to run large inverters.
One thing I considered important was getting wiring and fusing right. Partner bought me a good crimping tool and loose a finger in a moment's inattention wire cutters and have used good heavy cable. Fuses on everything. I think the biggest fire risk from Lithium in a caravan is inadequate wire size and fuses in case of a short.
My thinking atm is to buy 1 more 120ah and a 25amp DC_DC from Kings and put in A Van initially. Have Redarc DC-DC in both but they are not Lithium compatible A Van charges at a good 10 amps in sun when driving so DC-DC not needed atm.
Bottom line is talk to people who are using Lithium, especially at the sort of size you envisage using. I'm very happy with it and I put Lithium in A Van mainly to check it out. I suggest whatever size you go with, pay particular attention to wiring. I think the biggest danger is discharge rate should things go pear shaped.
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:52 AM Nov 22, 2025
If you change from AGMs to Lithium, you need to comply with the new AS3001 regulations which include the batteries being sealed from the living area.
Cheers,
Peter
Stevejaz said
01:47 PM Nov 22, 2025
This may cause more controversy than it solves but I found it helpful.
Very hard to find exact specifications as to "sealed". Not a very scientific term. Also specifications as to seal around wires. I still maintain the biggest risk as far as Lithium batteries in caravans is inadequate wire size and fusing.
BBN2 said
03:44 PM Nov 22, 2025
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
If you change from AGMs to Lithium, you need to comply with the new AS3001 regulations which include the batteries being sealed from the living area. Cheers, Peter
This man won't wipe his bottom without checking legislation for an approved way.
He'll respond by saying your insurance will be invalid or you'll be thown into prison for 20 years.
Just ignore him.
Edit:
How Margaret (if she exists) puts up with him is beyond me. Can you imagine:
"I see you're doing the dishes dear; is that washing-up liquid certified under AS68921-2021 for disposal into the waste water system?"
I'm amazed she didn't bury him in the back yard years ago.
-- Edited by BBN2 on Saturday 22nd of November 2025 04:11:02 PM
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:42 PM Nov 22, 2025
BBN2 (do you have a name?), you can do whatever you choose, but it is not your business to advise others to ignore the rules. That is their choice. You might not be smart enough to work out the implications, but most here are.
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 23rd of November 2025 08:22:13 AM
Dick0 said
10:02 AM Nov 23, 2025
Those who retort to humiliating personal comments, in response as opinions, should be immediately banned from this forum. I have noticed it is the more recent members who may feel obliged that they should have the privilege to provide humiliating retorts. It only gets worse once started.
Ineedabiggerboat said
11:45 AM Nov 23, 2025
debate inaccurate misinterprets manipulate confusion contentious perspective
The above words are all used just in the introduction in the second document Peter posted.
The whole issue is a dogs breakfast.
Oh by the way, in relation to your comments, is there a standard for glass houses?
Peter_n_Margaret said
12:05 PM Nov 23, 2025
Ineedabiggerboat wrote:
debate inaccurate misinterprets manipulate confusion contentious perspective The above words are all used just in the introduction in the second document Peter posted. The whole issue is a dogs breakfast.
A serious issue that we all face when it comes to these rules is that the official Standards are not available unless you purchase a copy. In addition, they can not be copied and posted by those who have purchased a copy because that breaches the copyright provisions. We are then inclined to seek out other people's interpretations of the intensions of those standards and that means trying to find a path through the biases of the writer.
I don't know any easy solution to this quandary, except to purchase your own copy of the standards (if the job justifies that expense), or get a qualified person to do the work, or take a chance on other people's interpretations.
EDIT: One of the early (and most useful) interpretations I found was this...
Caravanning Queensland Presentation, 9 February 2023, AS/NZS 3001.2 Electrical Installations, Anne Campbell, Compliance Engineer, Caravan Industry Association of Australia.
Unfortunately, I can't find it with a Google search. I do have a copy of it as a PDF, but won't/can't post it here. Maybe someone else can find it somewhere and post a link here?
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 23rd of November 2025 12:16:55 PM
Ineedabiggerboat said
10:55 AM Nov 24, 2025
Given that the standards are constantly open to interpretation, is there a standard for how standards are written that ensures everything in them is clear and not open to interpretation?
Peter_n_Margaret said
12:28 PM Nov 24, 2025
In my limited experience, Standards are written for interpretation by professionals in the field covered, not for DIY amateurs and there is little that is open to interpretation. If it is, they change it. The new electrical standards were published as drafts for comment by the industry for a couple of years before implementation for that reason.
But YES, there are some consistencies in how they are written.
"May" for instance, means that it is optional.
"Shall" means that it is mandatory and there is no choice.
There are others.
Cheers,
Peter
TimTim said
10:40 PM Nov 25, 2025
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
If you change from AGMs to Lithium, you need to comply with the new AS3001 regulations which include the batteries being sealed from the living area. Cheers, Peter
Come on Peter, AS/NZ 3001.2.2022 is not a regulation, it is a reference document that may be referenced in whole or part and you know full well that for vehicles under 4.5t the Motor Vehicles Standards Act and Regulations call up AS/NZ 3001.2.2008 as outlined in VBS1.
Until the later Standard is referenced in legislation then everything is optional provided you comply with the earlier Standard.
I have provided all the 'authoritative' links to back up my statements so please post the links to the Commonwealth Acts and Regulations to back up your statement.
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:31 PM Nov 25, 2025
It does not make any difference if it is legislated, or not, if Vehicle Standards insist upon it (as they do in South Australia, and probably other States), or if your Insurance company says you need to comply.
Did you ask them? Please do so and post their reply.
Cheers,
Peter
TimTim said
11:48 PM Nov 25, 2025
Ineedabiggerboat wrote:
Given that the standards are constantly open to interpretation, is there a standard for how standards are written that ensures everything in them is clear and not open to interpretation?
There is no standard for how Australian Standards are written but they do follow a format on how they are set out. The content is written by a committee of people within the industry to which they relate and sometimes there is disagreement within that committee of the content. The other year I had dealing with a very knowledgeable engineer who had been on a committee for a very long time and has been pulling his hair out to get certain changes through. Others on the committee did not want the changes because of the financial cost to them in the industry they were in.
As for interpretation, all Acts, Regulations and reference documents are open to interpretation, a reason why two lawyers will argue over facts in court and a judge decides. But then we have the appeals process where a higher court may have a different interpretation than a lower court.
On of the funny things about AS/NZ 3001.2.2022 is clause about ventilation for LifePO4 batteries. It would appear to me they had no idea what to do for these and merely says to consult with the installer or battery manufacturer. If we take as an example a standard 100Ah prismatic cell battery, inside it has four smaller batteries with a 'nominal' voltage of 3.2V. They are generally referred to as cells but are batteries in series. Each of those cells have a pressure relief valve but the cells are then placed in a sealed case which does not have a pressure relief valve.
So I want to change to a LiFePO4 battery in my van. If I were to undertake the ventilation requirements in accordance with the later Standard I have the option of consulting with Eve who manufactured the cells or consulting with myself as I manufactured the battery myself. I am also the installer so I can determine my own ventilation requirements.
If I buy a battery, do I have the option of consulting with the company that manufactured the cells or the company that put the cells into the case to form the battery as a whole. If I'm the installer I can determine whether ventilation is required or not.
There is no legislation preventing me from doing my own ELV electrical work.
As I have said previously, check your insurance PDS prior to making any changes and pay particular attention to the definitions.
TimTim said
12:48 AM Nov 26, 2025
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
It does not make any difference if it is legislated, or not, if Vehicle Standards insist upon it (as they do in South Australia, and probably other States), or if your Insurance company says you need to comply. Did you ask them? Please do so and post their reply. Cheers, Peter
It make all the difference whether or not a Standard is referenced in legislation so post the Act and Regulations of the Vehicle Standards that you refer to Peter.
I know you like AI Peter as you do not post authoritative links, personally I dislike it as I have found it wrong in so many ways but I do know this is correct.......
'No, a state government department cannot make its own rules; they can only make regulations under powers delegated to them by a law passed by the state parliament. The state parliament is the only body with the authority to pass legislation (Acts), while government departments can create detailed rules and regulations that provide the "how-to" for implementing those Acts'
So post the Act and Regulations.
As for insurance it is what is written in the PDS that matters and then again such things can be open to interpretation.
I do read my PDS's Peter before I even accept the contract. My last success in AFCA against an insurance company was based on legislative requirements, Australian Standards and PDS clauses. I don't listen to what administrative staff tell me, nor do I believe the urban myths, I work on legislation and facts. That's why I posted the appropriate links to back up my statements.
I'm very much a 'newchum' on the subject of power requirements for life on the road, and have been devouring old postings about solar & batteries & setups. I was going to post this in reply on one of them but hesitated to do so because of the ages of the postings. So I figured to throw my "two bob's worth" in on a new posting for all those who may not be aware.
One thing I do know with absolute certainty is that, unlike lead acid batteries which deteriorate if regularly discharged below 85% capacity (yes, even 'deep cycle' batteries will not put up with it forever even though they are designed for deeper discharge cycles), Lithium Batteries deteriorate faster if regularly charged over 85% of their capacity. About once a month or so is good for them, but day to day is not. They also shouldn't be regularly allowed below around 15 - 20%. They develop dendrites (little 'veins', kind of like plant roots) internally which gradually reduce their capacity over time. They can also (in short, fast charging cycles) relatively quickly penetrate the separator between the cathode & the anode resulting in a short which will kill the cell and can even result in a spontaneous fire.
One of the posts I read the OP had a problem with his/her lithium battery only 4 years old discharging rapidly. This is possibly the cause. Some lithium battery packs can be repaired by replacing an individual cell, but whether this can be practically done with bigger batteries I don't know. I'd also hazard a guess that if the problem is occurring with a battery several years old it probably wouldn't be practicable anyway as other cells in the battery may well be getting close to the same problem.
For what it is worth.
Some of the cheap lithium batteries are using C grade cells, so the battery is not going to be brilliant to start with.
Lead acid batteries have a total life watt/hours. If you add up the total wattage of low depth discharge, compared to high depth discharge. It's about the same total watt hours.
& the battery is not going to fall off a cliff at the end of its total watt hours.
I have 4 small lead acid batteries. Another use for them is jump starting wich I have done for other a number of times, another one a week ago! 1040 amps for 5 seconds, or 360 amps for 5 minutes.
Mostly they run the fridge which is about 15AH per 24 hours.
I much prefer actual RV users experiences to the screeds of theory and workshop or laboratory based data out there.
Our 300Ah 4 cell Sinopoly LiFePO4 battery pack has now survived 11 years of full-time travel spending perhaps 95% of its life above 85% SOC.
According to some of those theorists we must be very, very lucky.
I capacity test the battery at C/10 each November 5.
At the last test in Ah the battery had "deteriorated" from the original 315 to just 299!
Insignificant? It is to us.
When the battery eventually fails either tomorrow or 15 years from now it will simply be replaced with whatever suitable and affordable energy source is available at the time.
Maximum 14.1V from any charge source. 12.2V battery disconnect. Never triggered in daily use.
The battery has also started the 3.9l turbo diesel truck engine a few thousand times. "BMS" circuitry is necessarily external.
Battery daily cost to date if the battery dies tomorrow= 50 cents.
Absolutely insignificant compared to other travelling expenditure.
-- Edited by Scubadoo on Saturday 9th of August 2025 10:37:15 AM
Cheers,
Peter
"Load tested" the by then 5 year old batteries in A Van with electric bike charger and small inverter. Spat the dummy in seconds LOL.
Put in a 120ah Kings Lithium. Old Kings solar regulator is Lithium compatible. Also put in a 40 ( or was that 50?) amp Victron regulator and got a 360Watt Kings Blanket. That thing is the GOAT! Have a 200 Watt which I have never seen produce more than 115 so was sceptical of 360. Thought 250 would be good enough but I've seen it put out 370 (Victron Shunt)
Been watching the batteries in Motorhome and undecided re upgrading them to Lithium or getting one more trip out of them.
Also contemplating what size battery to put in it. The 120ah's will go into existing boxes but like the idea of single 300ah.
Bottom line though is ability to charge and other than several solar panels, we use a generator with built in 30 amp Victron mains chargers. gives a pretty good load of about 800 Watts on a 2.2 Honda and who wants to run a generator for more than a couple of hours?
Bottom line is 120ah in each is probably plenty. Unless of course we want to run large inverters.
One thing I considered important was getting wiring and fusing right. Partner bought me a good crimping tool and loose a finger in a moment's inattention wire cutters and have used good heavy cable. Fuses on everything. I think the biggest fire risk from Lithium in a caravan is inadequate wire size and fuses in case of a short.
My thinking atm is to buy 1 more 120ah and a 25amp DC_DC from Kings and put in A Van initially. Have Redarc DC-DC in both but they are not Lithium compatible A Van charges at a good 10 amps in sun when driving so DC-DC not needed atm.
Bottom line is talk to people who are using Lithium, especially at the sort of size you envisage using. I'm very happy with it and I put Lithium in A Van mainly to check it out. I suggest whatever size you go with, pay particular attention to wiring. I think the biggest danger is discharge rate should things go pear shaped.
Cheers,
Peter
www.youtube.com/watch
Very hard to find exact specifications as to "sealed". Not a very scientific term. Also specifications as to seal around wires. I still maintain the biggest risk as far as Lithium batteries in caravans is inadequate wire size and fusing.
This man won't wipe his bottom without checking legislation for an approved way.
He'll respond by saying your insurance will be invalid or you'll be thown into prison for 20 years.
Just ignore him.
Edit:
How Margaret (if she exists) puts up with him is beyond me. Can you imagine:
"I see you're doing the dishes dear; is that washing-up liquid certified under AS68921-2021 for disposal into the waste water system?"
I'm amazed she didn't bury him in the back yard years ago.
-- Edited by BBN2 on Saturday 22nd of November 2025 04:11:02 PM
BBN2 (do you have a name?), you can do whatever you choose, but it is not your business to advise others to ignore the rules. That is their choice. You might not be smart enough to work out the implications, but most here are.
https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/driving-and-transport/vehicles/vehicle-standards-and-modifications/campervans-and-motorhomes/light-motorhome-conversion
https://www.aussiebatteries.com.au/assets/files/SBT-Lithium-Safety-Standards-Update-V2.pdf?srsltid=AfmBOopMi8zPm51OXyAqLoaGOVI9s-hhRr0DRmOob37jQ60Ng4NiJb2e
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 23rd of November 2025 08:22:13 AM
Those who retort to humiliating personal comments, in response as opinions, should be immediately banned from this forum. I have noticed it is the more recent members who may feel obliged that they should have the privilege to provide humiliating retorts. It only gets worse once started.
A serious issue that we all face when it comes to these rules is that the official Standards are not available unless you purchase a copy. In addition, they can not be copied and posted by those who have purchased a copy because that breaches the copyright provisions. We are then inclined to seek out other people's interpretations of the intensions of those standards and that means trying to find a path through the biases of the writer.
I don't know any easy solution to this quandary, except to purchase your own copy of the standards (if the job justifies that expense), or get a qualified person to do the work, or take a chance on other people's interpretations.
EDIT: One of the early (and most useful) interpretations I found was this...
Caravanning Queensland Presentation, 9 February 2023, AS/NZS 3001.2 Electrical Installations, Anne Campbell, Compliance Engineer, Caravan Industry Association of Australia.
Unfortunately, I can't find it with a Google search. I do have a copy of it as a PDF, but won't/can't post it here. Maybe someone else can find it somewhere and post a link here?
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 23rd of November 2025 12:16:55 PM
But YES, there are some consistencies in how they are written.
"May" for instance, means that it is optional.
"Shall" means that it is mandatory and there is no choice.
There are others.
Cheers,
Peter
Come on Peter, AS/NZ 3001.2.2022 is not a regulation, it is a reference document that may be referenced in whole or part and you know full well that for vehicles under 4.5t the Motor Vehicles Standards Act and Regulations call up AS/NZ 3001.2.2008 as outlined in VBS1.
Until the later Standard is referenced in legislation then everything is optional provided you comply with the earlier Standard.
I have provided all the 'authoritative' links to back up my statements so please post the links to the Commonwealth Acts and Regulations to back up your statement.
Did you ask them? Please do so and post their reply.
Cheers,
Peter
There is no standard for how Australian Standards are written but they do follow a format on how they are set out. The content is written by a committee of people within the industry to which they relate and sometimes there is disagreement within that committee of the content. The other year I had dealing with a very knowledgeable engineer who had been on a committee for a very long time and has been pulling his hair out to get certain changes through. Others on the committee did not want the changes because of the financial cost to them in the industry they were in.
As for interpretation, all Acts, Regulations and reference documents are open to interpretation, a reason why two lawyers will argue over facts in court and a judge decides. But then we have the appeals process where a higher court may have a different interpretation than a lower court.
On of the funny things about AS/NZ 3001.2.2022 is clause about ventilation for LifePO4 batteries. It would appear to me they had no idea what to do for these and merely says to consult with the installer or battery manufacturer. If we take as an example a standard 100Ah prismatic cell battery, inside it has four smaller batteries with a 'nominal' voltage of 3.2V. They are generally referred to as cells but are batteries in series. Each of those cells have a pressure relief valve but the cells are then placed in a sealed case which does not have a pressure relief valve.
So I want to change to a LiFePO4 battery in my van. If I were to undertake the ventilation requirements in accordance with the later Standard I have the option of consulting with Eve who manufactured the cells or consulting with myself as I manufactured the battery myself. I am also the installer so I can determine my own ventilation requirements.
If I buy a battery, do I have the option of consulting with the company that manufactured the cells or the company that put the cells into the case to form the battery as a whole. If I'm the installer I can determine whether ventilation is required or not.
There is no legislation preventing me from doing my own ELV electrical work.
As I have said previously, check your insurance PDS prior to making any changes and pay particular attention to the definitions.
It make all the difference whether or not a Standard is referenced in legislation so post the Act and Regulations of the Vehicle Standards that you refer to Peter.
I know you like AI Peter as you do not post authoritative links, personally I dislike it as I have found it wrong in so many ways but I do know this is correct.......
'No, a state government department cannot make its own rules; they can only make regulations under powers delegated to them by a law passed by the state parliament. The state parliament is the only body with the authority to pass legislation (Acts), while government departments can create detailed rules and regulations that provide the "how-to" for implementing those Acts'
So post the Act and Regulations.
As for insurance it is what is written in the PDS that matters and then again such things can be open to interpretation.
I do read my PDS's Peter before I even accept the contract. My last success in AFCA against an insurance company was based on legislative requirements, Australian Standards and PDS clauses. I don't listen to what administrative staff tell me, nor do I believe the urban myths, I work on legislation and facts. That's why I posted the appropriate links to back up my statements.