Considering EV either use charging from outside facilities or have limited recharging from regeneration braking.
Why is it not a standard to have a device fitted to charge the batteries whilst in motion, ie a high output alternators connected to 2 or more of the wheels.
Could this be the key to on the move recharging of the heavy transport industry.
dorian said
02:36 PM Jul 4, 2023
Gundog wrote:
Considering EV either use charging from outside facilities or have limited recharging from regeneration braking. Why is it not a standard to have a device fitted to charge the batteries whilst in motion, ie a high output alternators connected to 2 or more of the wheels. Could this be the key to on the move recharging of the heavy transport industry.
ROTFLMAO.
smwhiskey said
02:38 PM Jul 4, 2023
The flaw you mention in EV is a thing called Physics. Essentially you'll need external energy to keep the EV charged because its not a closed system and you lose energy due to friction, heat, etc etc etc. Having a high output alternator isn't the answer because you'll use more energy than you create.
The answer is to do with being able to efficently input energy into the system without plugging it in. Solar is an obvious option but it just isn't efficient enough. Some makes do reclaim energy when braking but I don't believe that its particularly efficient either.
So with limitation in current technology, the only viable option is an extension lead and power point or petrol driven generator under the bonnet (aka a Hybrid)
KJB said
04:30 PM Jul 4, 2023
....called a "perpetual motion machine".....we all wish .
Physics will not allow it....full stop.
granite53 said
05:24 PM Jul 4, 2023
KJB wrote:
....called a "perpetual motion machine".....we all wish .
Physics will not allow it....full stop.
Never stopped our politicians with wind and solar did it?
Whenarewethere said
05:51 PM Jul 4, 2023
Remove headwind & replace with enough tailwind & one would get to destination with fully charged batteries. Otherwise it's about 0.25kWh per km to overcome the physics of energy sucking issues, like tyres on the road & wind resistance etc.
My petrol engine across Nullarbor at 100kph.
Headwind 12.5L/100
Tailwind 7.8L/100
So petrol at roughly 9.0kWh of energy per litre. The best I can do is 0.700kWh per km.
Whenarewethere said
07:54 PM Jul 4, 2023
Just reading in Norway a loaded ore train going down hill can put back in the grid enough energy to power an empty train returning uphill.
Not sure of weights, but let's say for this argument 50% for empty train. So the rest of the energy is going into friction etc.
aussiebottlo said
08:33 PM Jul 4, 2023
You would have to run the output from the alternators through a decent size flux capacitor.
Are We Lost said
08:55 PM Jul 4, 2023
aussiebottlo wrote:
You would have to run the output from the alternators through a decent size flux capacitor.
"If we could somehow harness this lightning... channel it into the flux capacitor... it just might work." Dr Emmett Brown.
But seriously, there is merit in what Gundog says provided we only expect a little bit if recharging. In fact, that IS what EVs usually do and mentioned by Gundog ..... generate charging current instead of wasting resources with braking like a conventional vehicle.
Whenarewethere said
09:49 PM Jul 4, 2023
Any car whether electric or ICE has a pile of inefficiencies. It's just not worth spending the money to design something better. Even the wiring harness, a lot of it is not used in across the model range. Even the "Keeping up with the Joneses" model there is parts which are not used. My car has wiring that was never used as an option accessory even though it's there in the software. It's a waste of copper & adds pointless weight, but it is easier to make a wiring harness to cover all models plus the possible future updates.
One could be an idiot like me & spend sh.. loads of money to squeeze every last drop of energy out of my solar cells. Or spend $2000 on compressor setup. It's just not going to happen for 99.9% of things.
It is cheaper to have inefficiencies, & things which are there but not there.
If you have a pauper model. You will not have footwell lighting. The fittings are there, so all the wiring it there. They just leave the bulbs out. Same with puddle lamps in mirrors & bottom of doors.
I have heard of cases where the pauper model has the speakers but the wire is left unplugged. It cost more not to have the speakers installed.
Aus-Kiwi said
12:30 AM Jul 5, 2023
Peter Brock tried that with Chrystals in his Commodore
Gundog said
04:36 AM Jul 5, 2023
Stick your head outside the known box, like I said I'm no electronics brainiac, but say a high output 150ah alternator is mounted somehow to each of the non steering wheels to generate some charge back to the battery.
This is not a perpetual motion thing, but a range extender, at some stage the battery will require to be recharged, let your mind run free, the hinderance to acceptance of EV outside the city is range. In an ICE vehicle refuel takes a matter of minutes, like my current journey of 1150km just completed, I could have made that journey non stop, save a bladder relief or food infusion, 13 hours comfortably, where as an EV requires multiple stops, so that 13 becomes 16 dependant on the availabity of chargers, type and servicability.
Many of the cheaper EV's have poor range outside the city, MG EV has a 320k range city cycle, maybe 200k out on the open road, to get from 10% to 80% recharge takes about 53 minutes. Now envisage Mum, Dad and 2 billy Lids want to drive from Rocky to Airley Beach, Its unlikely they will reach Camilla 250k away so better stop at Marlborough for a top up say 30 minutes, Mackay is on the limit Camilla is next stop, can we make Airley from there again its iffy better stop at Mackay. So a journey that takes 5.5 hours could now 7 or more hours, so a weekend away at Airley is a Cluster@#$%.
,
Whenarewethere said
06:12 AM Jul 5, 2023
You only need one Asynchronous motor in a vehicle. They are extremely efficient up to about 95%. It either moves the car or train or charges it depending on whether you are accelerating or braking.
Inefficiencies are wind resistance, friction & powering accessories.
The German ICE train series 1 they used 2 powered locos. The current model the train is powered via most axles which frees up more passenger space as you can't have longer trains as platforms can't be made longer.
Whenarewethere said
06:39 AM Jul 5, 2023
It is beside the point whether my car is electric or ICE. It's most efficient speed is about 60kph. Anything below this it still consumes energy to power accessories. About 60kph it is wind resistance that is an increasing factor.
At 140kph the car is 50% as efficient compared to 90kph. I don't want to travel at 60kph in the outback as it's takes too long to get anywhere, often illegal to travel too far below a speed limit anyway & I would pi.. off every other driver, this causing an accident.
Greg 1 said
12:19 PM Jul 5, 2023
Two of my friends have new EV's, one a Tesla and the other a BYD.
Both have regenerative braking so when going down a hill put charge back into the battery.
However, at best this only extends the range by about 10%.
On a flat level highway you would get virtually no gain.
As stated, the laws of physics stop you from creating perpetual motion as you use more energy than you produce to produce it so the alternator idea, whilst nice, doesn't really work.
If it did then all the EV's would already have them.
Same with solar panels. Just simply not enough surface area to generate enough power from current technology.
DMaxer said
12:42 PM Jul 5, 2023
I was reading an article about Sweden and apparently they have built a charging lane in one of their roads whereby trucks drive along and charge the battery as they are going. It is only a test road at this stage but they plan to extend the operations.
In Germany, Siemens have built a road with overhead lines which are used by the trucks to charge the batteries. They look a bit like the electric trains with the overhead framework to contact the wires.
It will be like everything else. It will be developed and quickly. In 1930 commercial airlines were just beginning. In less than forty years we had sent a man to the moon.
BarneyBDB said
10:21 PM Jul 5, 2023
Everything old is new again, slot car tracks and trolley busses...
Whenarewethere said
11:11 PM Jul 5, 2023
We have had Maglev trains since the 1980s. Use the same principle to supply power. Similar to charging wireless products. A bit inefficient, but it solves other problems.
Just need a World standard so everyone isn't fluffing about with individual country standards.
Possum3 said
07:54 AM Jul 6, 2023
Whenarewethere wrote:
Just need a World standard so everyone isn't fluffing about with individual country standards.
Goodness, we cannot get agreement (from all the technical genii), on an interchangeable phone charger. Why does every electronic device require differing cords/plugs/etc?
smwhiskey said
09:51 AM Jul 6, 2023
Possum3 wrote:
Whenarewethere wrote:
Just need a World standard so everyone isn't fluffing about with individual country standards.
Goodness, we cannot get agreement (from all the technical genii), on an interchangeable phone charger. Why does every electronic device require differing cords/plugs/etc?
Isn't USB-C now the globally accepted universal charger standard. EU has mandated it fromt he end of 2024 anyway.
Whenarewethere said
03:41 PM Jul 6, 2023
smwhiskey wrote:
Possum3 wrote:
Whenarewethere wrote:
Just need a World standard so everyone isn't fluffing about with individual country standards.
Goodness, we cannot get agreement (from all the technical genii), on an interchangeable phone charger. Why does every electronic device require differing cords/plugs/etc?
Isn't USB-C now the globally accepted universal charger standard. EU has mandated it from the end of 2024 anyway.
I thought so until a few days ago!
Bought a new phone for other half the other day & it has a Micro B connection... Really... Bloody pain in the neck!
ROTFLMAO.
The flaw you mention in EV is a thing called Physics. Essentially you'll need external energy to keep the EV charged because its not a closed system and you lose energy due to friction, heat, etc etc etc. Having a high output alternator isn't the answer because you'll use more energy than you create.
The answer is to do with being able to efficently input energy into the system without plugging it in. Solar is an obvious option but it just isn't efficient enough. Some makes do reclaim energy when braking but I don't believe that its particularly efficient either.
So with limitation in current technology, the only viable option is an extension lead and power point or petrol driven generator under the bonnet (aka a Hybrid)
....called a "perpetual motion machine".....we all wish .
Physics will not allow it....full stop.
Never stopped our politicians with wind and solar did it?
Remove headwind & replace with enough tailwind & one would get to destination with fully charged batteries. Otherwise it's about 0.25kWh per km to overcome the physics of energy sucking issues, like tyres on the road & wind resistance etc.
My petrol engine across Nullarbor at 100kph.
Headwind 12.5L/100
Tailwind 7.8L/100
So petrol at roughly 9.0kWh of energy per litre. The best I can do is 0.700kWh per km.
Just reading in Norway a loaded ore train going down hill can put back in the grid enough energy to power an empty train returning uphill.
Not sure of weights, but let's say for this argument 50% for empty train. So the rest of the energy is going into friction etc.
"If we could somehow harness this lightning... channel it into the flux capacitor... it just might work." Dr Emmett Brown.
But seriously, there is merit in what Gundog says provided we only expect a little bit if recharging. In fact, that IS what EVs usually do and mentioned by Gundog ..... generate charging current instead of wasting resources with braking like a conventional vehicle.
Any car whether electric or ICE has a pile of inefficiencies. It's just not worth spending the money to design something better. Even the wiring harness, a lot of it is not used in across the model range. Even the "Keeping up with the Joneses" model there is parts which are not used. My car has wiring that was never used as an option accessory even though it's there in the software. It's a waste of copper & adds pointless weight, but it is easier to make a wiring harness to cover all models plus the possible future updates.
One could be an idiot like me & spend sh.. loads of money to squeeze every last drop of energy out of my solar cells. Or spend $2000 on compressor setup. It's just not going to happen for 99.9% of things.
It is cheaper to have inefficiencies, & things which are there but not there.
If you have a pauper model. You will not have footwell lighting. The fittings are there, so all the wiring it there. They just leave the bulbs out. Same with puddle lamps in mirrors & bottom of doors.
I have heard of cases where the pauper model has the speakers but the wire is left unplugged. It cost more not to have the speakers installed.
Stick your head outside the known box, like I said I'm no electronics brainiac, but say a high output 150ah alternator is mounted somehow to each of the non steering wheels to generate some charge back to the battery.
This is not a perpetual motion thing, but a range extender, at some stage the battery will require to be recharged, let your mind run free, the hinderance to acceptance of EV outside the city is range. In an ICE vehicle refuel takes a matter of minutes, like my current journey of 1150km just completed, I could have made that journey non stop, save a bladder relief or food infusion, 13 hours comfortably, where as an EV requires multiple stops, so that 13 becomes 16 dependant on the availabity of chargers, type and servicability.
Many of the cheaper EV's have poor range outside the city, MG EV has a 320k range city cycle, maybe 200k out on the open road, to get from 10% to 80% recharge takes about 53 minutes. Now envisage Mum, Dad and 2 billy Lids want to drive from Rocky to Airley Beach, Its unlikely they will reach Camilla 250k away so better stop at Marlborough for a top up say 30 minutes, Mackay is on the limit Camilla is next stop, can we make Airley from there again its iffy better stop at Mackay. So a journey that takes 5.5 hours could now 7 or more hours, so a weekend away at Airley is a Cluster@#$%.
,
You only need one Asynchronous motor in a vehicle. They are extremely efficient up to about 95%. It either moves the car or train or charges it depending on whether you are accelerating or braking.
Inefficiencies are wind resistance, friction & powering accessories.
The German ICE train series 1 they used 2 powered locos. The current model the train is powered via most axles which frees up more passenger space as you can't have longer trains as platforms can't be made longer.
It is beside the point whether my car is electric or ICE. It's most efficient speed is about 60kph. Anything below this it still consumes energy to power accessories. About 60kph it is wind resistance that is an increasing factor.
At 140kph the car is 50% as efficient compared to 90kph. I don't want to travel at 60kph in the outback as it's takes too long to get anywhere, often illegal to travel too far below a speed limit anyway & I would pi.. off every other driver, this causing an accident.
I was reading an article about Sweden and apparently they have built a charging lane in one of their roads whereby trucks drive along and charge the battery as they are going. It is only a test road at this stage but they plan to extend the operations.
In Germany, Siemens have built a road with overhead lines which are used by the trucks to charge the batteries. They look a bit like the electric trains with the overhead framework to contact the wires.
It will be like everything else. It will be developed and quickly. In 1930 commercial airlines were just beginning. In less than forty years we had sent a man to the moon.
We have had Maglev trains since the 1980s. Use the same principle to supply power. Similar to charging wireless products. A bit inefficient, but it solves other problems.
Just need a World standard so everyone isn't fluffing about with individual country standards.
Goodness, we cannot get agreement (from all the technical genii), on an interchangeable phone charger. Why does every electronic device require differing cords/plugs/etc?
Isn't USB-C now the globally accepted universal charger standard. EU has mandated it fromt he end of 2024 anyway.
I thought so until a few days ago!
Bought a new phone for other half the other day & it has a Micro B connection... Really... Bloody pain in the neck!