It appears that there is a shortage of young Australians prepared to join the military. It has been suggested that immigrants who want a pathway to citizenship, could join an arm of the military and after a period of service they would be awaded with Australian Citizenship.
It makes me wonder about the youth of today, when quizzed what they would do if Australia was invaded by an aggressor, many replyed they would not join up to defend us, and some suggested they would leave Australia.
Santa said
12:50 PM May 7, 2023
"when quizzed what they would do if Australia was invaded by an aggressor, many replyed they would not join up to defend us"
Conscription will take care of that.
Whenarewethere said
02:02 PM May 7, 2023
No surprise people don't join when they are left to rot & hang themselves.
It seems Russia has one solution, portable crematoriums to remove all trace to avoid long term issues!
Cuppa said
02:28 PM May 7, 2023
Gundog wrote:
It appears that there is a shortage of young Australians prepared to join the military.
It makes me wonder about the youth of today, when quizzed what they would do if Australia was invaded by an aggressor, many replyed they would not join up to defend us, and some suggested they would leave Australia.
I expect it has something to do with a cyncism about the need for military, & a distrust of governments who have needlessly sent young people off to become canon fodder. If there were a genuine need to protect our homeland I'm sure many would pitch in, but when .... instead of protecting Australia they are sent off to fight other people's/country's wars - on the basis of propaganda from politicians who lie, who tell the young people they are to be fighting the aggressors , when actually they are to be the aggressors themselves - it's really no surprise that they are not keen.
I have plenty of respect for those in the military who have given what they have given, suffered what they have suffered, in duty to our country, but I have no respect for those who lied to them to get them to undertake what they were told was their duty. Sadly for those who have done their duty some struggle with the fact they were deceived, & refuse to accept it could be so. If anyone reading this is offended by what I have said, I apologise, I know you did what you believed was right & I respect you for it. Young people today are more broadly informed & consequently more cynical about becoming part of the military. Those who have abused the trust of our young people are to blame, not the young people themselves.
We comfortably accept that the controlling powers in other countries (like Russia for example) are willing to throw their young men to the wolves, why wouldn't young Australians think their government were capable of the same after fiascos like Vietnam & Afghanistan?
Possum3 said
02:44 PM May 7, 2023
Santa wrote:
"when quizzed what they would do if Australia was invaded by an aggressor, many replyed they would not join up to defend us"
Conscription will take care of that.
No "Regular" wants a Conscript with attitude at their six. Most true Australians are pleased that we have a team of volunteers that are willing to serve and defend.
Should the worst situation arise such as aggression or invasion, I don't think we could count on much input from all the "alphabet" individuals out there. But the humour they provide might scare the hell out of potential invaders.
The lower age groups are dominated by women, who are not expected to bear arms, while the upper age groups are dominated by men, for whom there is the stigma of dishonour if they elect not to fight.
Cuppa said
06:09 PM May 7, 2023
What are 'alphabet individuals?
-- Edited by Cuppa on Sunday 7th of May 2023 06:09:30 PM
Gundog said
06:17 PM May 7, 2023
dorian wrote:
Gundog wrote:
dorian wrote:
The poll was skewed methinks ...
How's that skewed 502 under 45 498 over 45
The lower age groups are dominated by women, who are not expected to bear arms, while the upper age groups are dominated by men, for whom there is the stigma of dishonour if they elect not to fight.
Generally young males are more than likely be not responsive responding to market research.
Remember females now can serve in every part of the military on the frontline in the air, land and sea, I'm not sure but I think females cannot serve on submarines.
Warren-Pat_01 said
08:22 PM May 7, 2023
The world has changed since the days of the Korean War when volunteers went to fight "For King (or President) & Country". My father went through hell in WW2 but I remember him asking Mum whether he should go to Korea.
We are nowhere as patriotic as we once were - your chart above proves that.
There has been suggestions that our "little darlings" from Qld towns should be given military service as part of their sentences - but who would want to serve with them?
dorian said
04:45 AM May 8, 2023
Gundog wrote:
dorian wrote:
Gundog wrote:
dorian wrote:
The poll was skewed methinks ...
How's that skewed 502 under 45 498 over 45
The lower age groups are dominated by women, who are not expected to bear arms, while the upper age groups are dominated by men, for whom there is the stigma of dishonour if they elect not to fight.
Generally young males are more than likely be not responsive responding to market research.
Remember females now can serve in every part of the military on the frontline in the air, land and sea, I'm not sure but I think females cannot serve on submarines.
More unspecified market research? From IPA?
I would argue that society still expects young women in the 20-40 age bracket to stay at home and look after the kids, or go with them to a safe place, while their husbands go out to fight. So if all the males in the 18-24 group chose to do their duty, and 10% of the women also chose to fight, then the combined figure for that group would be 34%. Obviously, the poll is worthless, or at least the results are. What the pollsters should have done is tabulate the men and women separately, and they can still do that with the data they have collected. One can only speculate why they chose not to do so. Was it because the result would not have fit in with the IPA's narrative?
Edit:
Let's consider an extreme example, just for the sake of illustration. Let's assume that no 18-year-old men stood up to fight for the country but 50% of the women did. Then the combined result for that age group would be 36%. Clearly, the lesser number is the better result, although the poll is not designed to show it.
-- Edited by dorian on Monday 8th of May 2023 09:17:27 AM
dorian said
04:50 AM May 8, 2023
Warren-Pat_01 wrote:
We are nowhere as patriotic as we once were - your chart above proves that.
The chart proves nothing of the sort. You don't need to be a statistician to see that.
Cuppa said
07:24 AM May 8, 2023
Warren-Pat_01 wrote:
We are nowhere as patriotic as we once were - your chart above proves that.
If patriotic means accepting/acting without questioning then I'd say you are correct.
I don't accept that young Aussies are not patriotic on the basis that they would not choose to fight for their country.
I expect that many would if they were sure the reasons for doing so were genuine.
But lets be clear about this IPA 'report' based upon their flawed research 'twisted to suit' their ultra right wing agenda - it is not the Young Aussie's patriotism they are questioning, it is simply a means to once again 'dog whistle' their criticism of their view of a 'not right-wing enough' Australia. An attempt, like all their others to create & manipulate dissatisfaction within the community. It's a classic strategy, no different to that used by the UK's swastika wearing National Socialist Movement in the 60's, & Oswald Mosely & his British Union of Facists before them. These are people ready & waiting to exploit societies to their own ends, particularly at times when folk are doing it tough. Deliberately confusing patriotism with nationalism. The IPA are the 'presentable face' of the modern neo-nazi mobs. They are rich & wear suits rather than swastikas, but are no less of a threat to our community.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Monday 8th of May 2023 11:00:34 AM
Aussie1 said
09:10 AM May 8, 2023
Cuppa wrote:
What are 'alphabet individuals?
-- Edited by Cuppa on Sunday 7th of May 2023 06:09:30 PM
If you don't know, don't worry your pretty little head about it.. The more worldly forum members on here are aware of who I am referring to.
dogbox said
09:46 AM May 8, 2023
Aussie1 wrote:
Cuppa wrote:
What are 'alphabet individuals?
-- Edited by Cuppa on Sunday 7th of May 2023 06:09:30 PM
If you don't know, don't worry your pretty little head about it.. The more worldly forum members on here are aware of who I am referring to.
repeat question " who/what are alphabet individuals" i googled it a nothing comes up
Possum3 said
09:55 AM May 8, 2023
G, L, B, Q, T. there may be some more but who cares?
dogbox said
10:15 AM May 8, 2023
thank you. i must live a poor, simple, sheltered life
Cuppa said
10:56 AM May 8, 2023
Thank you from me also Possum3.
I had thought maybe it referred to Gen Y , Gen Z etc - that may have been more logical given the discussion was around young people.
It didn't occur to me that someone might want to throw in a 'gender bandwagon' comment, but I can now see how for some seeing the words male & female on the screen might bring out an instant response of that type.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Monday 8th of May 2023 10:56:57 AM
Gundog said
03:51 PM May 8, 2023
For a country of 26 million people you think we could attract more than 90 thousand into our military.
Do you think an accelerated pathway to becoming an Australian could be a good thing, the British treat the Gurkhas with the pay and allowances, pensions equal to british soldiers and also residency for their family.
dorian said
04:40 PM May 8, 2023
Gundog wrote:
For a country of 26 million people you think we could attract more than 90 thousand into our military.
Do you think an accelerated pathway to becoming an Australian could be a good thing, the British treat the Gurkhas with the pay and allowances, pensions equal to british soldiers and also residency for their family.
To me, it would look like Australia was hiring mercenaries. Moreover, many immigrants are escaping from war torn countries. How would it look to hit them with such an offer?
Aussie1 said
06:18 PM May 8, 2023
dorian wrote:
Gundog wrote:
For a country of 26 million people you think we could attract more than 90 thousand into our military.
Do you think an accelerated pathway to becoming an Australian could be a good thing, the British treat the Gurkhas with the pay and allowances, pensions equal to british soldiers and also residency for their family.
To me, it would look like Australia was hiring mercenaries. Moreover, many immigrants are escaping from war torn countries. How would it look to hit them with such an offer?
Me thinks we would have to "hire" mercinenaries given my post above about relying the "alphabet" individuals (Cuppa now knows who I'm referring to) because on reflection, I don't think they would be capable of doing the job. However, Gundog you are correct in my opinion, we should be able to attract more than 90 thousand from those ranks.
Me, well, I will just continue with my Chinese language lessons. So I can follow my instructions.
Gundog said
07:28 PM May 8, 2023
I wouldn't consider if a person who took up the offer to serve in our military, who sees at the after a period of service would become an Australian, is not a mercenaries but a patriot.
Are the Gurkhas of Nepal considered as mercenaries, hell no these Gurkhas are so proud to be to serve in the British Army.
Recenty I watched a video of the funeral of the last Gurkha VC holder it was a very moving and the respect he was sent off with was emotional.
If I had the ear of the Defence Minister I would tell him speak to his British counterpart of how we could raise a Regiment of Gurkha Infantary.
Bicyclecamper said
07:37 PM May 8, 2023
Well, Aussie1, I am "technically" one of those "alphabet" individuals, am an a ex- soldier with many years of service under my belt, and of my time in the army, I think maybe 20% were also "alphabet" individuals. Just because you think, "they" are too soft or leftwing, doesn't give you the right to question their ability to fight for the country and protect it's people. On another note, For your own information, the cut off age to join the Australian Defence Force is 55yo in the event of a war on our shores. and 65yo, for the Home Defence Force, so if you're under these ages would you join? I know I would go back, as I am currently 63yo. to help save my family, and your family as well.
-
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Monday 8th of May 2023 08:13:15 PM
Aussie1 said
08:18 PM May 8, 2023
Bicyclecamper wrote:
Well, Aussie1, I am "technically" one of those "alphabet" individuals, am an a ex- soldier with many years of service under my belt, and of my time in the army, I think maybe 20% were also "alphabet" individuals. Just because you think, "they" are too soft or leftwing, doesn't give you the right to question their ability to fight for the country and protect it's people. On another note, For your own information, the cut off age to join the Australian Defence Force is 55yo in the event of a war on our shores. and 65yo, for the Home Defence Force, so if you're under these ages would you join? I know I would go back, as I am currently 63yo. to help save my family, and your family as well.
-
Firstly, thank you for your service. Not sure I understand the term "technically" though.
Anyhow nice to know you will be there if needed.
In the interim, I shall stick with my Chinese language lessons. Nothing wrong with having "two bob each way" if you know what I mean
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Monday 8th of May 2023 08:13:15 PM
landy said
09:18 PM May 8, 2023
Bicyclecamper as Ausi has said Thank you for your service.
dorian said
08:41 AM May 9, 2023
The idea of an artificially created regiment makes me uncomfortable. I know Singapore has a "Gurkha Contingent" in their police force, and Lee Kwan Yew had a squad of Gurkha bodyguards, but that seems OK for them. I don't think the general Australian population would accept such a proposition, though.
It appears that there is a shortage of young Australians prepared to join the military. It has been suggested that immigrants who want a pathway to citizenship, could join an arm of the military and after a period of service they would be awaded with Australian Citizenship.
It makes me wonder about the youth of today, when quizzed what they would do if Australia was invaded by an aggressor, many replyed they would not join up to defend us, and some suggested they would leave Australia.
"when quizzed what they would do if Australia was invaded by an aggressor, many replyed they would not join up to defend us"
Conscription will take care of that.
No surprise people don't join when they are left to rot & hang themselves.
It seems Russia has one solution, portable crematoriums to remove all trace to avoid long term issues!
I expect it has something to do with a cyncism about the need for military, & a distrust of governments who have needlessly sent young people off to become canon fodder. If there were a genuine need to protect our homeland I'm sure many would pitch in, but when .... instead of protecting Australia they are sent off to fight other people's/country's wars - on the basis of propaganda from politicians who lie, who tell the young people they are to be fighting the aggressors , when actually they are to be the aggressors themselves - it's really no surprise that they are not keen.
I have plenty of respect for those in the military who have given what they have given, suffered what they have suffered, in duty to our country, but I have no respect for those who lied to them to get them to undertake what they were told was their duty. Sadly for those who have done their duty some struggle with the fact they were deceived, & refuse to accept it could be so. If anyone reading this is offended by what I have said, I apologise, I know you did what you believed was right & I respect you for it. Young people today are more broadly informed & consequently more cynical about becoming part of the military. Those who have abused the trust of our young people are to blame, not the young people themselves.
We comfortably accept that the controlling powers in other countries (like Russia for example) are willing to throw their young men to the wolves, why wouldn't young Australians think their government were capable of the same after fiascos like Vietnam & Afghanistan?
No "Regular" wants a Conscript with attitude at their six. Most true Australians are pleased that we have a team of volunteers that are willing to serve and defend.
ipa.org.au/publications-ipa/media-releases/poll-young-australians-too-ashamed-to-fight
Ahh.... just the usual IPA pot stirring.
The poll was skewed methinks ...
How's that skewed 502 under 45 498 over 45
The lower age groups are dominated by women, who are not expected to bear arms, while the upper age groups are dominated by men, for whom there is the stigma of dishonour if they elect not to fight.
What are 'alphabet individuals?
-- Edited by Cuppa on Sunday 7th of May 2023 06:09:30 PM
Generally young males are more than likely be not responsive responding to market research.
Remember females now can serve in every part of the military on the frontline in the air, land and sea, I'm not sure but I think females cannot serve on submarines.
We are nowhere as patriotic as we once were - your chart above proves that.
There has been suggestions that our "little darlings" from Qld towns should be given military service as part of their sentences - but who would want to serve with them?
More unspecified market research? From IPA?
I would argue that society still expects young women in the 20-40 age bracket to stay at home and look after the kids, or go with them to a safe place, while their husbands go out to fight. So if all the males in the 18-24 group chose to do their duty, and 10% of the women also chose to fight, then the combined figure for that group would be 34%. Obviously, the poll is worthless, or at least the results are. What the pollsters should have done is tabulate the men and women separately, and they can still do that with the data they have collected. One can only speculate why they chose not to do so. Was it because the result would not have fit in with the IPA's narrative?
Edit:
Let's consider an extreme example, just for the sake of illustration. Let's assume that no 18-year-old men stood up to fight for the country but 50% of the women did. Then the combined result for that age group would be 36%. Clearly, the lesser number is the better result, although the poll is not designed to show it.
-- Edited by dorian on Monday 8th of May 2023 09:17:27 AM
The chart proves nothing of the sort. You don't need to be a statistician to see that.
If patriotic means accepting/acting without questioning then I'd say you are correct.
I don't accept that young Aussies are not patriotic on the basis that they would not choose to fight for their country.
I expect that many would if they were sure the reasons for doing so were genuine.
But lets be clear about this IPA 'report' based upon their flawed research 'twisted to suit' their ultra right wing agenda - it is not the Young Aussie's patriotism they are questioning, it is simply a means to once again 'dog whistle' their criticism of their view of a 'not right-wing enough' Australia. An attempt, like all their others to create & manipulate dissatisfaction within the community. It's a classic strategy, no different to that used by the UK's swastika wearing National Socialist Movement in the 60's, & Oswald Mosely & his British Union of Facists before them. These are people ready & waiting to exploit societies to their own ends, particularly at times when folk are doing it tough. Deliberately confusing patriotism with nationalism. The IPA are the 'presentable face' of the modern neo-nazi mobs. They are rich & wear suits rather than swastikas, but are no less of a threat to our community.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Monday 8th of May 2023 11:00:34 AM
If you don't know, don't worry your pretty little head about it.. The more worldly forum members on here are aware of who I am referring to.
repeat question " who/what are alphabet individuals" i googled it a nothing comes up
Thank you from me also Possum3.
I had thought maybe it referred to Gen Y , Gen Z etc - that may have been more logical given the discussion was around young people.
It didn't occur to me that someone might want to throw in a 'gender bandwagon' comment, but I can now see how for some seeing the words male & female on the screen might bring out an instant response of that type.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Monday 8th of May 2023 10:56:57 AM
For a country of 26 million people you think we could attract more than 90 thousand into our military.
Do you think an accelerated pathway to becoming an Australian could be a good thing, the British treat the Gurkhas with the pay and allowances, pensions equal to british soldiers and also residency for their family.
To me, it would look like Australia was hiring mercenaries. Moreover, many immigrants are escaping from war torn countries. How would it look to hit them with such an offer?
Me thinks we would have to "hire" mercinenaries given my post above about relying the "alphabet" individuals (Cuppa now knows who I'm referring to) because on reflection, I don't think they would be capable of doing the job. However, Gundog you are correct in my opinion, we should be able to attract more than 90 thousand from those ranks.
Me, well, I will just continue with my Chinese language lessons. So I can follow my instructions.
I wouldn't consider if a person who took up the offer to serve in our military, who sees at the after a period of service would become an Australian, is not a mercenaries but a patriot.
Are the Gurkhas of Nepal considered as mercenaries, hell no these Gurkhas are so proud to be to serve in the British Army.
Recenty I watched a video of the funeral of the last Gurkha VC holder it was a very moving and the respect he was sent off with was emotional.
If I had the ear of the Defence Minister I would tell him speak to his British counterpart of how we could raise a Regiment of Gurkha Infantary.
Well, Aussie1, I am "technically" one of those "alphabet" individuals, am an a ex- soldier with many years of service under my belt, and of my time in the army, I think maybe 20% were also "alphabet" individuals. Just because you think, "they" are too soft or leftwing, doesn't give you the right to question their ability to fight for the country and protect it's people. On another note, For your own information, the cut off age to join the Australian Defence Force is 55yo in the event of a war on our shores. and 65yo, for the Home Defence Force, so if you're under these ages would you join? I know I would go back, as I am currently 63yo. to help save my family, and your family as well.
-
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Monday 8th of May 2023 08:13:15 PM