I'm well and truley over using Nappisan in our cassette, it's useless and does next to nothing.
So after seeing a facebook post about using dishwasher tablets to clean a home toilet work(maybe?).
So I wondered what would be the result if dishwasher tablet was used, I grabbed a 40 pack of Coles Ultra Dishwasher tablets for $6, to trial them.
All be it generally we dont drop polly waffles into our cassettes, we have 2 cassettes and change them every 48 hours.
So remember to save water, if it yellow let it mellow, if its brown flush it down.
Dougwe said
04:56 PM Apr 13, 2023
Curiosity killed the cat so luckily, I'm not a cat but curiosity has the better of me. Did the dishwasher tabs work?
I just use Thetford blue sachets. Green if emptying into a septic system. I have tried all sorts of flavors, including the cheap Nappy San stuff and agree that stuff is useless IMO. I always end up going back to Thetford, so that's what I'll keep using.
If it aint broke, leave it be.
Cuppa said
05:02 PM Apr 13, 2023
Gundog wrote:
I'm well and truley over using Nappisan in our cassette, it's useless and does next to nothing.
So after seeing a facebook post about using dishwasher tablets to clean a home toilet work(maybe?).
So I wondered what would be the result if dishwasher tablet was used, I grabbed a 40 pack of Coles Ultra Dishwasher tablets for $6, to trial them.
All be it generally we dont drop polly waffles into our cassettes, we have 2 cassettes and change them every 48 hours.
So remember to save water, if it yellow let it mellow, if its brown flush it down.
A few years back I was saying the same thing about using Napisan/Sodium percarbonate in our portapotti. A friend with a good handle on chemistry asked how much we had been using. "A heaped teaspoon in the bottom tank as a starter & a heaped teaspoon or thereabouts per 'deposit'. "You are using too much" he said, "too much is as bad as not enough". So we reduced the amount to a level teaspoon per 'deposit' & it has worked just fine for the past few years. That said we still try to empty within 3 to 4 days, it can start to get a bit wiffy if we go longer. For me - the one who empties it (it's a blue job) the difference between napisan & no napisan is chalk & cheese. And both of those are better than the gut churning stench that accompanies the proprietary chemicals sold by the toilet manufacturer. I shall be interested as to how well the dishwasher tablets work & how you dose them.
Are dishwasher tablets septic friendly?
Plain Truth said
06:26 PM Apr 13, 2023
Gundog wrote:
I'm well and truley over using Nappisan in our cassette, it's useless and does next to nothing.
So after seeing a facebook post about using dishwasher tablets to clean a home toilet work(maybe?).
So I wondered what would be the result if dishwasher tablet was used, I grabbed a 40 pack of Coles Ultra Dishwasher tablets for $6, to trial them.
All be it generally we dont drop polly waffles into our cassettes, we have 2 cassettes and change them every 48 hours.
So remember to save water, if it yellow let it mellow, if its brown flush it down.
How can you say Nappisan doesn't work if you only pee in it.nothing will work in that case.
Also if you buy Nappisan,buy nappisan Gold it has a higher percentage of Sodium Percacarbonate
-- Edited by Plain Truth on Thursday 13th of April 2023 06:27:49 PM
yobarr said
06:33 PM Apr 13, 2023
Simple stuff! Install a SOG. Job done. Cheers
Plain Truth said
06:34 PM Apr 13, 2023
Cuppa wrote:
Gundog wrote:
I'm well and truley over using Nappisan in our cassette, it's useless and does next to nothing.
So after seeing a facebook post about using dishwasher tablets to clean a home toilet work(maybe?).
So I wondered what would be the result if dishwasher tablet was used, I grabbed a 40 pack of Coles Ultra Dishwasher tablets for $6, to trial them.
All be it generally we dont drop polly waffles into our cassettes, we have 2 cassettes and change them every 48 hours.
So remember to save water, if it yellow let it mellow, if its brown flush it down.
A few years back I was saying the same thing about using Napisan/Sodium percarbonate in our portapotti. A friend with a good handle on chemistry asked how much we had been using. "A heaped teaspoon in the bottom tank as a starter & a heaped teaspoon or thereabouts per 'deposit'. "You are using too much" he said, "too much is as bad as not enough". So we reduced the amount to a level teaspoon per 'deposit' & it has worked just fine for the past few years. That said we still try to empty within 3 to 4 days, it can start to get a bit wiffy if we go longer. For me - the one who empties it (it's a blue job) the difference between napisan & no napisan is chalk & cheese. And both of those are better than the gut churning stench that accompanies the proprietary chemicals sold by the toilet manufacturer. I shall be interested as to how well the dishwasher tablets work & how you dose them.
Are dishwasher tablets septic friendly?
Hi Cuppa,we don't have any wiffy smells after 3 or 4 days ,maybe something is not sealing properly.
dogbox said
07:35 PM Apr 13, 2023
CUPPA a bit off topic but what you say about using too much napisan/sodium percarbonate is also true when it comes to washing power in the laundry half the recommended amount is more effective than the recommended amount
Cuppa said
08:26 PM Apr 13, 2023
Plain Truth wrote:
Hi Cuppa,we don't have any wiffy smells after 3 or 4 days ,maybe something is not sealing properly.
I should qualify this with 'when in use'. We use it in the tent section of our Tvan. By day four the Orange Spray comes into play.
landy said
09:01 PM Apr 13, 2023
Been using the Coles nappy soaker for the last ten years and have no complaints, we empty the cassett every Three to four days.
RickJ said
09:20 PM Apr 13, 2023
It was explained in a topic I read on here from quite some time ago when it was argued about the use of Napisan or Sodium Percarbonate in a toilet cassette.
I dont intend to go back through a trove of posts and topics but a few old school argued that Napisan was the ducks nuts however it was pointed out with a simple test that as Napisan or SP works it releases copious quantities of oxygen and as such when it is in a sealed container this expansion causes leaks and damages seals.
This action and reaction is subject to a temperature which may increase as it inevitably does during the day causing more of an oxygen producing environment which in turn causes the built up in pressure, the resulting smell and eventually possible cassette damage.
A travelling van can also exacerbate this expansion due to movement.
As a test of proof get an empty 5 litre container and 2/3 fill it with just warm water guess wee temperature around 37 deg c.
Put a spoonful or two of Nappisan or sodium Percarbonate into the water fit the lid and give it a shake and stand back.
If shaking it is not to your favour just move it around at about the same effort as you would take to refit the cassette into the slot.
If you still doubt it then after adding SP just let it sit in the sun with the lid on.
The cassette is not designed to cope with any pressure and the degree of the problem you may have is directly related to the use of SP. or Nappisan.
Napisan is cheap and that is its only attraction and yes you can let the pressure out but when there is no oxygen being produced then then you may as well just put sand into the cassette.
So all you daddy short pockets have a close look what is recommended as far as commercial products are concerned and the added advantage is that the products designed for the caravan dunnies can be sourced as a product which is safe for septics and other systems.
They come in different colours.
To answer the one thing about SP that it can be used in septic tanks. Many people wash clothing with SP
There are also big differences in strength of percentage of active ingredients in varying brands of SP
Just a personal observation is that the product that you get in SupaCrap Auto has the most god awful smell you can breath and it has poor labelling which may be hiding some witchcraft secret formula. I personally no stick to using the recommended brand. Blue for standard and green fo septic from memory.
Are We Lost said
10:55 PM Apr 13, 2023
So your whole argument was about pressure in the tank? So all those people who use Sodium Percarbonate have been living on borrowed time before being presented with an awful mess?
So your whole argument was about pressure in the tank? So all those people who use Sodium Percarbonate have been living on borrowed time before being presented with an awful mess?
I think not. From the Thetford parts list ....
Hi AWL,
I thought I clearly stated that this was info I read on this forum. The information was relayed from that topic.
I have no real knowledge of the pressure relief valve.
Maybe my cassette does not have one or if it does it could be faulty. Or maybe the design can not cope with the pressure that can be generated by the use of a non approved product.
Being a SP user and not being that happy I did try the experiment and the pressure surprised me.
Now just maybe the unit I have is not fitted with a pressure release but if anyone has a pressure release and it can actually cope with the massive pressure then by all means, ignore the information I posted above. I am not going outside and checking it now but I dont recall a black hose fitted.
I was extremely surprised when I did the pressure test. When shaken it actually blew the lid off the container which I had screwed on tight.
Hey, to all on the forum if you choose not to believe it then so be it as there is no harm done by me recommending the correct toilet chemical.
Similar to recommending toilet paper. It can be approved for cassette or if that is not suitable for a sensitive ring gear then use non approved and put it in a bin after wiping the important bits or if all this really breaks the bank of any traveller then Gum Leaves are readily available and generally free.
Just like Nappisan, your choice.
Just for the record this was my opening statement;
It was explained in a topic I read on here from quite some time ago when it was argued about the use of Napisan or Sodium Percarbonate in a toilet cassette.
I dont intend to go back through a trove of posts and topics but a few old school argued that Napisan was the ducks nuts however it was pointed out with a simple test that as Napisan or SP works it releases copious quantities of oxygen and as such when it is in a sealed container this expansion causes leaks and damages seals.
-- Edited by RickJ on Thursday 13th of April 2023 11:22:18 PM
Mike Harding said
08:37 AM Apr 14, 2023
I have been using Safeway Boost Laundry Soaker (33% SP, $3.50/kg), every day, for 4.5 years at one slightly heaped teasp per deposit and have no complaints whatsoever.
The pressure issue isn't. Tanks have a pressure relief to prevent a build up of methane which occurs naturally with this kind of waste. Only once have I seen evidence of the pressure valve opening and that was during a run of 40C days and only a slight discharge.
Sodium percarbonate works. That's why it's been used for nappies for decades. However, I have found the 33% product to be significantly more effective than the 25% item.
littledick said
09:10 AM Apr 14, 2023
Gave the Napisan away years ago.
Only use the Lavender Walex. Wee only!!
Dick.
Gundog said
01:16 PM Apr 14, 2023
Initall testing appears to be ok, no pong when you empty in the dump point.
Mike Harding said
01:58 PM Apr 14, 2023
Gundog wrote:
Initall testing appears to be ok, no pong when you empty in the dump point.
If you are using dishwasher tablets or powder in your portable toilet you *SHOULD NOT* empty it in any sort of bush toilet - dump points only:
My observations at the supermarkets are that the more expensive Sodium Percarbonate products that have flash packaging and flash advertisements are generally lower in percentage of SP than the cheaper products.
Are We Lost said
02:52 PM Apr 14, 2023
Plain Truth wrote:
Also if you buy Nappisan,buy nappisan Gold it has a higher percentage of Sodium Percacarbonate
A waste of money. It is 4 times the price of the Coles generic product yet a tiny fraction more concentrated ..... 33% vs 32%. The Woolworths branded one is only 25.7% while Sard is a miserable 20%.
In this case, you definitely don't get what you pay for.
Going to a brewers' supplies shop, you can get the really concentrated stuff. 100% active ingredient for half the price of the Napisan Gold, but triple the strength. So even cheaper than the Coles stuff per dose.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 14th of April 2023 03:01:12 PM
Scubadoo said
03:36 PM Apr 14, 2023
Some of you guys must be doing something very wrong. Barbara and I have been full-time travelling here in NZ for 9 years using a Thetford C400 cassette toilet and arming it with a generic equivalent of Napisan. No SOG, no smells - ever! Tablespoon into perhaps 500ml water pre first use then a teaspoonful after #2s if we remember. Our cassette typically last 7 to 9 days for the two of us. Most urine is collected into 2l fabric softener containers.
Cuppa said
04:51 PM Apr 14, 2023
Re pressure build up.
It can happen in the short term especially if too much SP is added.
I know this!
We had been camped for a few days at a music festival & the portapotti had been used. Prior to leaving for home, just 45 minutes drive I was concerned that there may not be sufficient time between 'last deposit' & emptying when we reached home. I opted to add a few extra teaspoons of SP.
This was a mistake.
I was in the laundry, just outside our loo where I intended to empty the contents (to our septic system).
Out of interest I pulled the slide out to see i the extra SP had assisted the breakdown. Instantly the pressure was released. All I can say that if you wish to emulate this trick ... do not have your face directly over the top of the slide! MrsTea was highly amused, I was not!.
watsea said
08:30 PM Apr 14, 2023
I read the labelling on my Dishlex dishwashing tablets.
States that they are safe with most septic systems, but checks should be made on an particular wastewater treatment system.
Dick0 said
10:17 AM Apr 15, 2023
Dougwe wrote:
Curiosity killed the cat so luckily, I'm not a cat but curiosity has the better of me. Did the dishwasher tabs work?
I just use Thetford blue sachets. Green if emptying into a septic system. I have tried all sorts of flavors, including the cheap Nappy San stuff and agree that stuff is useless IMO. I always end up going back to Thetford, so that's what I'll keep using.
If it aint broke, leave it be.
Hope you are getting them at a good price like here Doug.
I am unconvinced it will break down solids as well as sodium percarbonate. But it should be safe to empty into septic systems.
Price wise; you are probably better off buying it as fertilizer from a garden centre and watering down as necessary.
Dougwe said
11:48 AM Apr 15, 2023
Not those Dick0. I use blue Thetford sachets mainly. I mostly empty canister into properly designed dump points. Blue is fine in those. Green sachets are very rarely needed. I do get my sachets on evilbay and from same supplier each time. Four packs at a time with free delivery. Sachets are more convenient as can keep them in back of Collie without fear of spilling. All dissolved in canister by the time I return to aluminium tent if not within walking distance.
vanTas said
08:37 PM Apr 16, 2023
The answer to the smell problem is already in the postings.
Those that say that the SP powder doesn't work are using the wrong product. Those users are using the toilets for Number ones alone.
SP is designed to break down solids - different situation.
For control of smells for number ones use a spray bottle mixed one part eucalyptus oil to at least ten parts water. It self mixes. Get the one that says so on the bottle. Spray a bit into holding tank after each use. Also spray a bit onto inside of bowl - it helps to keep inputs sliding into the tank.
Then if also using the toilet for number twos, go ahead with a flat teaspoon sized sprinkle after each deposit.
The two treatments go together.
Using SP for a starter, if you wish - Mix a desert spoon quantity in a litre bottle/old jug. Mix /stir/shake gently as it foams up. Put into holding tank and it cleans the tank interior far better than the chemicals being pushed.
NOTE: SP only works for twenty four hours, that is why you sprinkle a dusting in after each use.
RickJ said
06:48 AM Apr 17, 2023
As Dougwe said above
When all the others dont work etc etc.
Blue for standard and green for sensitive systems.
The other stories of good bad and ugly cause the prolific spending of money on Band-Aid solutions, one could just use the recommended product from the Manufacturer.
If it is a money thing why bother putting anything in the tank.
-- Edited by RickJ on Monday 17th of April 2023 06:51:17 AM
-- Edited by RickJ on Monday 17th of April 2023 06:55:52 AM
gold dandelion said
09:39 PM Apr 17, 2023
Was once told by people who know that you need to do the odd number two to break the ammonia smell from the ones, the blue satchels are all you need then, works well for us, my wife doing the two's. no smell and no ammonia smell from the urine.
Kebbin said
10:14 AM Apr 18, 2023
Laundry soaker for me as it works well, dish washing tablets have the same active ingredient ( sodium percarbonate ) also great for cleaning drains with s bend, put a table spoon in sink drain and wash thru with small amount of water, leave overnight. Also great stain remover on t shirts, I seem to be dribbling a lot these days but less than some posters on here.
AndyCap100 said
10:15 AM Apr 19, 2023
Hi ,see the previous posts headed ` toilet paper` . Andy .
-- Edited by AndyCap100 on Wednesday 19th of April 2023 10:16:35 AM
I'm well and truley over using Nappisan in our cassette, it's useless and does next to nothing.
So after seeing a facebook post about using dishwasher tablets to clean a home toilet work(maybe?).
So I wondered what would be the result if dishwasher tablet was used, I grabbed a 40 pack of Coles Ultra Dishwasher tablets for $6, to trial them.
All be it generally we dont drop polly waffles into our cassettes, we have 2 cassettes and change them every 48 hours.
So remember to save water, if it yellow let it mellow, if its brown flush it down.
I just use Thetford blue sachets. Green if emptying into a septic system. I have tried all sorts of flavors, including the cheap Nappy San stuff and agree that stuff is useless IMO. I always end up going back to Thetford, so that's what I'll keep using.
If it aint broke, leave it be.
A few years back I was saying the same thing about using Napisan/Sodium percarbonate in our portapotti. A friend with a good handle on chemistry asked how much we had been using. "A heaped teaspoon in the bottom tank as a starter & a heaped teaspoon or thereabouts per 'deposit'. "You are using too much" he said, "too much is as bad as not enough". So we reduced the amount to a level teaspoon per 'deposit' & it has worked just fine for the past few years. That said we still try to empty within 3 to 4 days, it can start to get a bit wiffy if we go longer. For me - the one who empties it (it's a blue job) the difference between napisan & no napisan is chalk & cheese. And both of those are better than the gut churning stench that accompanies the proprietary chemicals sold by the toilet manufacturer. I shall be interested as to how well the dishwasher tablets work & how you dose them.
Are dishwasher tablets septic friendly?
How can you say Nappisan doesn't work if you only pee in it.nothing will work in that case.
Also if you buy Nappisan,buy nappisan Gold it has a higher percentage of Sodium Percacarbonate
-- Edited by Plain Truth on Thursday 13th of April 2023 06:27:49 PM
Simple stuff! Install a SOG. Job done. Cheers
Hi Cuppa,we don't have any wiffy smells after 3 or 4 days ,maybe something is not sealing properly.
I should qualify this with 'when in use'. We use it in the tent section of our Tvan. By day four the Orange Spray comes into play.
Three to four days.
I dont intend to go back through a trove of posts and topics but a few old school argued that Napisan was the ducks nuts however it was pointed out with a simple test that as Napisan or SP works it releases copious quantities of oxygen and as such when it is in a sealed container this expansion causes leaks and damages seals.
This action and reaction is subject to a temperature which may increase as it inevitably does during the day causing more of an oxygen producing environment which in turn causes the built up in pressure, the resulting smell and eventually possible cassette damage.
A travelling van can also exacerbate this expansion due to movement.
As a test of proof get an empty 5 litre container and 2/3 fill it with just warm water guess wee temperature around 37 deg c.
Put a spoonful or two of Nappisan or sodium Percarbonate into the water fit the lid and give it a shake and stand back.
If shaking it is not to your favour just move it around at about the same effort as you would take to refit the cassette into the slot.
If you still doubt it then after adding SP just let it sit in the sun with the lid on.
The cassette is not designed to cope with any pressure and the degree of the problem you may have is directly related to the use of SP. or Nappisan.
Napisan is cheap and that is its only attraction and yes you can let the pressure out but when there is no oxygen being produced then then you may as well just put sand into the cassette.
So all you daddy short pockets have a close look what is recommended as far as commercial products are concerned and the added advantage is that the products designed for the caravan dunnies can be sourced as a product which is safe for septics and other systems.
They come in different colours.
To answer the one thing about SP that it can be used in septic tanks. Many people wash clothing with SP
There are also big differences in strength of percentage of active ingredients in varying brands of SP
Just a personal observation is that the product that you get in SupaCrap Auto has the most god awful smell you can breath and it has poor labelling which may be hiding some witchcraft secret formula. I personally no stick to using the recommended brand. Blue for standard and green fo septic from memory.
So your whole argument was about pressure in the tank? So all those people who use Sodium Percarbonate have been living on borrowed time before being presented with an awful mess?
I think not. From the Thetford parts list ....
Hi AWL,
I thought I clearly stated that this was info I read on this forum. The information was relayed from that topic.
I have no real knowledge of the pressure relief valve.
Maybe my cassette does not have one or if it does it could be faulty. Or maybe the design can not cope with the pressure that can be generated by the use of a non approved product.
Being a SP user and not being that happy I did try the experiment and the pressure surprised me.
Now just maybe the unit I have is not fitted with a pressure release but if anyone has a pressure release and it can actually cope with the massive pressure then by all means, ignore the information I posted above. I am not going outside and checking it now but I dont recall a black hose fitted.
I was extremely surprised when I did the pressure test. When shaken it actually blew the lid off the container which I had screwed on tight.
Hey, to all on the forum if you choose not to believe it then so be it as there is no harm done by me recommending the correct toilet chemical.
Similar to recommending toilet paper. It can be approved for cassette or if that is not suitable for a sensitive ring gear then use non approved and put it in a bin after wiping the important bits or if all this really breaks the bank of any traveller then Gum Leaves are readily available and generally free.
Just like Nappisan, your choice.
Just for the record this was my opening statement;
It was explained in a topic I read on here from quite some time ago when it was argued about the use of Napisan or Sodium Percarbonate in a toilet cassette.
I dont intend to go back through a trove of posts and topics but a few old school argued that Napisan was the ducks nuts however it was pointed out with a simple test that as Napisan or SP works it releases copious quantities of oxygen and as such when it is in a sealed container this expansion causes leaks and damages seals.
-- Edited by RickJ on Thursday 13th of April 2023 11:22:18 PM
I have been using Safeway Boost Laundry Soaker (33% SP, $3.50/kg), every day, for 4.5 years at one slightly heaped teasp per deposit and have no complaints whatsoever.
The pressure issue isn't. Tanks have a pressure relief to prevent a build up of methane which occurs naturally with this kind of waste. Only once have I seen evidence of the pressure valve opening and that was during a run of 40C days and only a slight discharge.
Sodium percarbonate works. That's why it's been used for nappies for decades. However, I have found the 33% product to be significantly more effective than the 25% item.
Gave the Napisan away years ago.
Only use the Lavender Walex. Wee only!!
Dick.
Initall testing appears to be ok, no pong when you empty in the dump point.
If you are using dishwasher tablets or powder in your portable toilet you *SHOULD NOT* empty it in any sort of bush toilet - dump points only:
Dishwasher stuff = bleach
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 14th of April 2023 03:01:12 PM
Some of you guys must be doing something very wrong.
Barbara and I have been full-time travelling here in NZ for 9 years using a Thetford C400 cassette toilet and arming it with a generic equivalent of Napisan.
No SOG, no smells - ever!
Tablespoon into perhaps 500ml water pre first use then a teaspoonful after #2s if we remember. Our cassette typically last 7 to 9 days for the two of us. Most urine is collected into 2l fabric softener containers.
Re pressure build up.
It can happen in the short term especially if too much SP is added.
I know this!
We had been camped for a few days at a music festival & the portapotti had been used. Prior to leaving for home, just 45 minutes drive I was concerned that there may not be sufficient time between 'last deposit' & emptying when we reached home. I opted to add a few extra teaspoons of SP.
This was a mistake.
I was in the laundry, just outside our loo where I intended to empty the contents (to our septic system).
Out of interest I pulled the slide out to see i the extra SP had assisted the breakdown. Instantly the pressure was released. All I can say that if you wish to emulate this trick ... do not have your face directly over the top of the slide! MrsTea was highly amused, I was not!.
States that they are safe with most septic systems, but checks should be made on an particular wastewater treatment system.
Hope you are getting them at a good price like here Doug.
Thetford Aqua Kem Green 6 x 2L chemical | eBay
As far as I can tell Thetford Aqua Kem Green is simply 35% calcium nitrate and the rest, presumably, water and colourings.
It's main claim in water treatment is to reduce odour:
Calcium nitrate
Thetford Aqua Kem MSDS
I am unconvinced it will break down solids as well as sodium percarbonate. But it should be safe to empty into septic systems.
Price wise; you are probably better off buying it as fertilizer from a garden centre and watering down as necessary.
Those that say that the SP powder doesn't work are using the wrong product. Those users are using the toilets for Number ones alone.
SP is designed to break down solids - different situation.
For control of smells for number ones use a spray bottle mixed one part eucalyptus oil to at least ten parts water. It self mixes. Get the one that says so on the bottle. Spray a bit into holding tank after each use. Also spray a bit onto inside of bowl - it helps to keep inputs sliding into the tank.
Then if also using the toilet for number twos, go ahead with a flat teaspoon sized sprinkle after each deposit.
The two treatments go together.
Using SP for a starter, if you wish - Mix a desert spoon quantity in a litre bottle/old jug. Mix /stir/shake gently as it foams up. Put into holding tank and it cleans the tank interior far better than the chemicals being pushed.
NOTE: SP only works for twenty four hours, that is why you sprinkle a dusting in after each use.
As Dougwe said above
When all the others dont work etc etc.
Blue for standard and green for sensitive systems.
The other stories of good bad and ugly cause the prolific spending of money on Band-Aid solutions, one could just use the recommended product from the Manufacturer.
If it is a money thing why bother putting anything in the tank.
-- Edited by RickJ on Monday 17th of April 2023 06:51:17 AM
-- Edited by RickJ on Monday 17th of April 2023 06:55:52 AM
Hi ,see the previous posts headed ` toilet paper` . Andy .
-- Edited by AndyCap100 on Wednesday 19th of April 2023 10:16:35 AM