What are the advantages/disadvantages of extended A frame?
Brodie Allen said
02:38 PM Jan 1, 2023
I am contemplating a new van and would appreciate comments from
knowledgable and experienced members on this subject.
Brodie
Cuppa said
04:05 PM Jan 1, 2023
I can only speak from the perspective of a relatively small van. A Tvan - a hard topped off road camper. At various times they have been supplied with a 'long drawbar' & a 'short drawbar'. There is also a bolt on drawbar extension for those who have a short drawbar but would prefer a long drawbar.
Within Tvan owners there are mixed views about preferences for either, but 'long' has always been the most common - all new ones are long because they are supplied with front storage boxes which sit on the drawbar.
We have a long drawbar on ours. I think it has several advantages over the short. It gives more room between the rear of the car & the van & theoretically is more stable at speed, although the Tvan's axle placement pretty much guarantees that with either length. For me the major advantage of a longer drawbar is that it makes reversing far easier. A shorter drawbar makes it easier to get offline quicker. As a new owner I was terrible at reversing, but found it far easier to improve with the Tvan's longer drawbar than I ever had on the only other things I'd towed - box trailers which all had short drawbars.
Tvan owners with short drawbars claim they are more manoeuvrable off road & less likely to get caught up driving in & out of steep sided gullies. In theory most likely correct, but it's not a problem I've had with ours & unlikely an issue of consideration with a caravan. If I were buying a caravan I would certainly look for a longer drawbar for ease of reversing, but I would also be looking at where the axle placement was . Far enough back to give maximum stability at speed, but not so far back that it places too much weight on the tow hitch.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Sunday 1st of January 2023 04:07:17 PM
yobarr said
05:55 PM Jan 1, 2023
Brodie Allen wrote:
I am contemplating a new van and would appreciate comments from
knowledgable and experienced members on this subject.
Brodie
Cuppa has supplied a most helpful reply, but could I add that, in addition to all the advantages listed, the longer the drawbar the less weight is applied to your car"s towball, and thus to its rear axle. Many (most) tow vehicles are easily overloaded on their rear axle, a point understood by few and conveniently ignored by car salesmen, and some van retailers. If you could tell us what your tow vehicle is I can give advice on its towing abilities. You can safely ignore any information supplied by manufacturers where tow ratings are given. Happy to explain in detail if you wish, but knowing what your car is would beca good start. Cheers
P.S What part of Queensland are you in? North, South etc. Near Sunshine Coast?
Brodie Allen said
09:31 PM Jan 1, 2023
Thanks guys - early days yet.
I have all the weights under control other than down force on the ball - it measures slightly
over the desirable maximum - and this makes me wonder what happens to the rear suspension
of some vehicles when 'vanners add considerable weight to the drawbars with boxes of all
types with contents of generators, petrol etc etc.
This is when one needs a WDH for the vehicle's balance and stability - of course I have one.
(Anderson, simply amazing for a number of reasons).
My vehicle is a VW Touareg - the big daddy V10 - it's published capabilities give lots of latitude
for more weights GTM etc, than we ever need. It tows like the van isn't there.
(21ft Silverline Outback) I have had all the weights checked on a weighbridge.
Anyway thanks yobarr.
This is when one needs a WDH for the vehicle's balance and stability - of course I have one.
(Anderson, simply amazing for a number of reasons).
But from a stability point of view - how much extra length is needed to make any appreciable difference?
I suspect that many of the horrific rollovers may be reduced with longer drawbars.
Is there any sort of regulation as to how long they may be?
Maximum length of combined rig, for instance.
If the drawbar is too long could the greatly reduced downforce on the ball be a problem?
Is the additional length going to balance out the reduced ball downforce with the stability that
extra length provides?
What's the go in vanparks re length? (Not that I ever visit them - can't handle the claustrophobia)
Love to hear from someone who has one and their additional comments.
yobarr said
09:57 PM Jan 1, 2023
Cuppa wrote:
We, but I would also be looking at where the axle placement was. Far enough back to give maximum stability at speed, but not so far back that it places too much weight on the tow hitch.
The highlighted words in Cuppa's post above brought to mind a caravan that I recently saw. To me, this van looked a bit strange so I did a bit of research that revealed that it was being marketed as suitable for a medium SUV (Hate that terminology!), with a ridiculously low towball weight quoted.
Forward length is more than 150% (1.5 times) greater than the rear overhang, meaning that high towball weight is likely. The figures I've supplied are conservative, with the actual figure being closer to 170%. (1.7 times).
It looks like a nice van, but would need a larger vehicle with a suitable towball capacity. The vast majority of caravan buyers have little understanding of weights and dynamics, and could easily find themselves overloaded. Buyers need to be aware that the plated tare means absolutely nothing. All I can suggest is Cavest Emptor. Cheers
P.S For obvious reasons I've covered any labels that would identify the make and model of the van, although I do realise that people like Montie would immediately know what it is! Cheers
I have all the weights under control other than down force on the ball - it measures slightly over the desirable maximum - and this makes me wonder what happens to the rear suspension of some vehicles when 'vanners add considerable weight to the drawbars with boxes of all types with contents of generators, petrol etc etc.
This is when one needs a WDH for the vehicle's balance and stability - of course I have one. (Anderson, simply amazing for a number of reasons).
My vehicle is a VW Touareg - the big daddy V10 - it's published capabilities give lots of latitude for more weights GTM etc, than we ever need. It tows like the van isn't there. (21ft Silverline Outback) I have had all the weights checked on a weighbridge. Anyway thanks yobarr.
This is when one needs a WDH for the vehicle's balance and stability - of course I have one. (Anderson, simply amazing for a number of reasons).
But from a stability point of view - how much extra length is needed to make any appreciable difference? I suspect that many of the horrific rollovers may be reduced with longer drawbars. Is there any sort of regulation as to how long they may be? Maximum length of combined rig for instance. If the drawbar is too long could the greatly reduced downforce on the ball be a problem? Is the additional length going to balance out the reduced ball downforce with the stability that extra length provides? What's the go in vanparks re length? (Not that I ever visit them - can't handle the claustrophobia)
Love to hear from someone who has one and their additional comments.
Hmmm. Interesting that you are happy that you're under your GTM limit. Are you aware of the car's low GVM, short wheelbase and low rear axle carrying capacity? Whilst I am not aware of your van's ATM, a quick look at Mr Google suggests about 3200kg?
With the generally accepted 10% towball weight you'd have 320kg on your towball, putting (guess) around 430kg onto your car's rear axle.
Car has low carrying capacity, so with towball weight, fuel and a couple of passengers you'd have very little to spare.
BUT, in this case, a WDH would help by getting weight off the car's very lightweight rear axle and putting SOME weight back onto the car's front axle. However, some weight also goes onto your van's axle group, so you'd have to make sure that you your van's axle group rating is adequate. Happy to help if needed, but not all that glistens is gold. Weights are not as easy as some imagine! Cheers
P.S Overall length of car and van must not exceed 19 metres.
Overall length of caravan must not exceed 12.5 metres.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 1st of January 2023 10:43:09 PM
Bill B said
11:28 PM Jan 1, 2023
yobarr wrote:
P.S For obvious reasons I've covered any labels that would identify the make and model of the van, although I do realise that people like Montie would immediately know what it is! Cheers
"Classic" picture Yobarr
The Belmont Bear said
08:26 AM Jan 2, 2023
Brodie we took delivery of our new Concorde van in August it is 20' and it has an extended drawbar. I had been using a HR WDH with the previous Retreat (std length drawbar) but as I decided I was going to use the Andersen hitch so I asked them to fit a std. 50mm ball coupling. We just completed a 10,000km trip around Qld and before we left I had the fully loaded van weighed and the balance checked using a mobile weighing service. The report said that everything was good except for the towball weight which was a bit too light. They showed us how to move things around in the van to get the best balance and how we could transfer more weight to the ball. In the end I needed to add a little extra weight to the ball by filling a jerry can with water and putting it in the tunnel boot. I was surprised when they told me to lift the ball up a notch higher (20mm) in the receiver - the result on the scales was ithat 12kg was added to it. To answer some of your questions -
1) Towball weight was a bit light and may have been exagerated by having the longer (300mm) drawbar
2) Easier to reverse - I cant say that I noticed any difference between it and our previous 21.5' Retreat.
3) The longer drawbar definately has the advantage of allowing more room to fit the tool box, gas bottles and stone guard.
4) Probably due to the anti sway features of the Andersen there was no noticeable sideways movement even in strong cross winds or when passing road trains.
5) We did get a little bouncing in far west Qid because some of the road surfaces were badly deformed, even the car would bounce on them when not towing. We just slowed down as the warning signs suggested and it was fine..
6) With a 20' van the extra length on the drawbar didnt make much difference when staying in CPs as it ended up around the same length as our previous 21' van with the std drawbar.
7) The only disadvantage I found wasn't actually with the extended drawbar it was when disconnecting the Andersen Hitch I really needed to make sure that the tug and the van were aligned before dropping the chains otherwise hooking back can be a problem.
8) If I wanted to push the speed up to 120kph it did start to feel the rig was less stable but as we travel between 95 and 100 kph that wasnt really a problem.
By the way I tow with a Jeep GC and it pulled the 3.1T load with ease even up the ranges from Grafton to Glen Innes and the descent down to Innisfail from the Atherton Tablelands via the Palmerston Hwy..(my advice for those travelling between Atherton and Cairns is dont use the Gillies Hwy if you are towing a full size van)
Cheers BB
-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Monday 2nd of January 2023 08:27:03 AM
-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Monday 2nd of January 2023 08:28:03 AM
-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Monday 2nd of January 2023 08:32:38 AM
So far your post is the most informative we have.
I would be interested in a longer A frame as the 320 kg downforce is huge when you consider
the leverage between the ball and the rear axle. I reckon I would like to reduce this somewhat
to reduce strain on the rear suspension, which by the way is variable in stiffness and height.
Yobarr - I don't know what makes you think that theres a problem with my numbers - I am well
within the VW's figures - and have had the van and vehicle over the weighbridge. I would not
leave home otherwise - I have a friend in another State that wes an investigator for insurance
companies and he filled my terrified ear with cases where post accident insurance was refused
or modified. Even where in one instance reported that the van was damaged when the rig slid
off a greasy surface and down an embankment in the rain - "If the weights were correct the
accident may not have occurred".
Back to discussion re extended A frame:
Bobdown said
05:11 PM Jan 2, 2023
Brodie, I would doubt that your TBW will be 320kg.
Looking at Jayco Silverline weights, at a Tare of 2600kg......TBW is about 180kg, ATM of 3200kg would result in about 260-280kg.
10% is only a rule of thumb and 8% is quite acceptable.
My van has an ATM of 3200 and the ball weight is 260 kg loaded.
The only problem I see with an extended A frame is that there is a tendency to load it up with tool boxes, bikes and jerry can holders.
Jack knife on an extended drawbar is a lot more than normal, without smashing a taillight, but I don't think there is much difference in reversing a large van, a small box trailer.....yes.
Cheers Bob
Brodie Allen said
05:20 PM Jan 2, 2023
This could go on forever, but to put Yobar's concerns to rest:
GCM 6,600
VW - Curb wt with 75 kg driver and fuel, etc. 2611kg
VW max wt. 3,300 kg less drawbar and curb wt. leaves 369 kg for load.
950 NM and 4wd auto diff and auto center lock makes for very secure towing.
Brodie
BAZZA44 said
07:17 PM Jan 2, 2023
As Cuppa said, easier to reverse. Our van has an extended drawbar and is 8.6m overall and no problem getting into van parks.
Barry
Brodie Allen said
07:36 PM Jan 2, 2023
My off the cuff thoughts is that a longer A frame would contribute hugely to stability.
Try to imagine a say, 5 meter A - I can imagine that it would be near impossible to
loose it.
So far I have gleaned:
A longer A would probably (1) be more stable and (2) reduce down-weight on
the tow ball so that a hefty box on the A would not be a problem then with sway.
So far, so good. What about the negatives?
yobarr said
10:40 PM Jan 2, 2023
Brodie Allen wrote:
This could go on forever, but to put Yobar's concerns to rest:
GCM 6,600
VW - Curb wt with 75 kg driver and fuel, etc. 2611kg VW max wt. 3,300 kg less drawbar and curb wt. leaves 369 kg for load.
950 NM and 4wd auto diff and auto center lock makes for very secure towing.
Brodie
Hi Brodie.Great to see that you're acting responsibly with your weights.
Seems you've over-simplified things, however, as you will NEVER be able to reach your GVM while towing, as 320kg towball weight takes around 110kg off your car's front axle. There is absolutely NO question that the car has the mechanical ability to tow heavy loads, but the short wheelbase and very low rear axle carrying capacity are definite negatives.
What was your car's rear axle weight when you did your tests?
Advice from no-doubt good intentioned members could lead you astray, but I don't have time to point out your problems. One member suggests 8% towball weight is acceptable, and in certain situtions it can be.Many variables, but again I simply can't devote time to supply useful information.
Anyway, you've received enough support to convince youself that your figures are good, but I'll bow out.
However, I will iterate that your big problem is your lightweight rear axle.
As an aside, putting a "hefty" box in the 'A' frame is a No No, and unless you dramatically increased the length of your 'A' frame, you would achieve only a very small reduction in towball weight. First thing to do is load your car and van, set for travel, and ascertain weight on rear axle.
Easiest way is to weigh front axle of car, then drive whole car onto weighbridge. Subtract front axle weight from total, and obviously you would have your rear axle weight.
Throwing GCM into the equation is an efficient method of using "smoke and mirrors" to decieve people.
Again, congratulations on taking your weights seriousl, but be VERY careful. The VW is a beautiful car, but with limitations.
Not all that glistens is Gold! Cheers
Brodie Allen said
01:04 PM Jan 3, 2023
Yobarr-
I can't get a handle on your concerns -
According to my numbers that are on my post, even after allowing for a weighty
driver and full tank of diesel, and the downforce on the ball, I still have 370 kg
for load in the car.
And the Anderson WDH takes care of the front wheel downforce.
I don't understand the smoke and mirrors and "very low rear axle carrying capacity"
(reduced by the Anderson) that you mention in your post.
Where/how did you form the opinion that the VW has a "very lightweight rear axle"?
(The VW does not have a rear axle at all) and the published loading is 1800kg max.
Methinks you have the wrong car?
yobarr said
10:58 PM Jan 3, 2023
Brodie Allen wrote:
Yobarr- I can't get a handle on your concerns -
According to my numbers that are on my post, even after allowing for a weighty driver and full tank of diesel, and the downforce on the ball, I still have 370 kg for load in the car.
And the Anderson WDH takes care of the front wheel downforce.
I don't understand the smoke and mirrors and "very low rear axle carrying capacity" (reduced by the Anderson) that you mention in your post.
Where/how did you form the opinion that the VW has a "very lightweight rear axle"? (The VW does not have a rear axle at all) and the published loading is 1800kg max.
Methinks you have the wrong car?
No, Brodie, I do not have the wrong car. If you do have a figure of 1800kg as rear axle carrying capacity, that is different from my figures, which I found after much research.
However, that rear axle carrying capacity is pathetic, with the more popular twin-cabs having both a much lower tare, and a higher axle capacity. You no doubt are aware that a WDH adds weight to your van's axle group, which can cause you to exceed the rating of your axle group?
You no doubt have seen the figures that I provided regarding legal vehicle lengths, and you will have noted that I advised that any increase in drawbar length will have only a minimal effect on towball weight.
However, your car has a short TBO which will help to counter the effects of the short wheelbase, but I will say again that rear axle weight will be a concern. When you had your fully laden setup weighed, did you establish the actual weight on the rear axle, or rear wheels, if you insist? Again I will suggest that you weigh your fully laden, ready for travel, car and van, carefully recording all the weights. My van weighs 3500kg, with 350kg towball weight, (maybe a little bit less than 350kg because the car weighs 3650kg) , and when hooked up to my car the weight on the car's rear axle is 2300kg. Your van is slightly lighter, but your rear axle carrying capacity is WAY lower. Again I congratulate you on taking weights seriously, but beware of no doubt good intentioned advice that 8% TBW is enough. This is sometimes possible when you have a much heavier vehicle towing a lighter van, but not when a car with GVM of 3300kg is towing a 3200kg van.
As I have said previously, weights are a mine field, particularly when you receive advice from anyone with a vested interest. Good luck. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 3rd of January 2023 11:18:06 PM
Greg 1 said
01:29 AM Jan 4, 2023
Personally I like an extended drawbar within reason.
I have one on my van and not because I want to stack tool boxes all over it. I just have the two gas bottles and a tray which I carry the jockey wheel in.
My reason for liking the extended bar is for the same reason I like the axle positioning in the photo yobarr supplied of the anonymous van. It tends to aid stability. I have always had a good towing trailer when they had those features.
Brodie Allen said
09:16 AM Jan 4, 2023
yobarr - the weights on the rear suspension is as quoted in my encyclopaedic
manual is as I posted. Why do you think that that is pathetic?
The ball weight is as the workshop measured. Its a standard van other than a recent
install of lithium which will reduce the ball weight somewhat.
I don't agree that a WDH will add weight to the vehicles axle group. The Anderson
would be lucky to weigh 10 kg. overall but the only weight on the car is an aluminium spindle
and towball.
Fully loaded and attached to car:
Car 3250
Van 3.05
yobarr said
11:50 AM Jan 4, 2023
Brodie Allen wrote:
yobarr - the weights on the rear suspension is as quoted in my encyclopaedic manual is as I posted. Why do you think that that is pathetic? The ball weight is as the workshop measured. Its a standard van other than a recent install of lithium which will reduce the ball weight somewhat. I don't agree that a WDH will add weight to the vehicles axle group. The Anderson would be lucky to weigh 10 kg. overall but the only weight on the car is an aluminium spindle and towball.
Fully loaded and attached to car: Car 3250 Van 3.05
Hi Brodie. My first reaction was to just let it go, but you seem well confused, so I will try to help.
The WDH adds weight to the VANs axle group. Not negotiable. WDH also adds weight to your car's front axle, usually around 75% weight transferred from rear axle, depending on wheelbase, TBO and forward length of van.
The plated towball weight on your van means absolutely nothing, and is rarely accurate. Manufacturers may keep stated towball weight down to make their product more attractive to owners of cars with low towball capacity. Smokes and Mirrors.
Not exactly dishonest, but perhaps unconscionable conduct?
Your figures above show car to be close to 10% heavier than your van, so that's fantastic, but I again suggest that you establish the weight on your car's rear wheels when you're loaded and ready to travel. Earlier I outlined how to accurately do this.
Good luck Brodie. Cheers
Radar said
12:43 PM Jan 4, 2023
Interesting to read in the spec of VW Touregs varing wheel carrying ratings from as low as 700 kgs each wheel to a high of 800 kgs per wheel.
So my thoughts are the rear axle of a Toureg is only good for 1800 Kgs.
If you can supply a better link, I like a read of the specs.
I have driven one back about 2008, I thought it was a V10 and it was an awesome.
Brodie Allen said
01:16 PM Jan 4, 2023
If you reckon that the VW is piddling - lookee here for rear axle loading
on a well-known ute.
Dunno if this works:
Pic here somewhere.
-- Edited by Brodie Allen on Wednesday 4th of January 2023 01:18:17 PM
If you reckon that the VW is piddling - lookee here for rear axle loading
on a well-known ute.
Dunno if this works:
Pic here somewhere.
-- Edited by Brodie Allen on Wednesday 4th of January 2023 01:18:17 PM
Pathetic, isn't it. And people get sucked in by unethical marketing and unprincipled salesmen. However, it needs to be noted that this not a "normal" Ranger, rather its baby brother. Bit like an over-rated Ram 1500 relying on its Big Brother for some unwarranted credibility. Sadly, most people just do not understand weights and are easily conned. Caveat Emptor. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 4th of January 2023 10:05:48 PM
Are We Lost said
04:17 PM Jan 4, 2023
Why would you pick the Ranger Raptor? That is the powerful, sporty petrol version and a poor choice for towing. The regular Ranger is far more suitable for towing.
Here, let me do the same. The current VW Touareg has 1470kg rear axle loading. What a poor choice that would be.
And yes, I realise it is not the same beast as you have, just as you realise you posted Raptor specs instead of the far more towing capable diesel Rangers.
But looking at those figures highlights how ridiculous and misleading specs have become. With such a low rear axle load rating and a quoted Tare of 2218kg in the brochure (download here) it would be hard pressed to safely tow much more than a 2000kg van. Tare 2218 + people + a toothbrush and you probably have about 150kg available for towball load (which would add over 200kg to rear axle load). Sure, more with a dog trailer, but there is no such mention.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 4th of January 2023 04:25:19 PM
Variant Model Code Maximum Permitted Gross Rear Axle Weight Rating Maximum Downball Weight
3.0l/170kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*MJ 1,480 kg 290 kg
3.0l/210kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*RJ 1,480 kg 230 kg
4.0l/310kW V8 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*WJ 1,510 kg 240 kg
NOTE: The Maximum Permitted Gross Rear Axle Weight Rating is inclusive of the Maximum Downball Weight and must not be exceeded. The Maximum Downball Weight must also not be exceeded. !
Maximum Permitted Gross Rear Axle Weight Rating and Maximum Downball Weight
Variant Model Code Maximum Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) Maximum Gross Combination Mass (GCM)
3.0l/170kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*MJ 2,850 kg 6,350 kg
3.0l/210kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*RJ 2,850 kg 6,350 kg
4.0l/310kW V8 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*WJ 3,000 kg 6,500 .
Variant Model Code Maximum Permitted Gross Rear Axle Weight Rating Maximum Downball Weight
3.0l/170kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*MJ 1,480 kg 290 kg
3.0l/210kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*RJ 1,480 kg 230 kg
4.0l/310kW V8 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*WJ 1,510 kg 240 kgVariant Model Code Maximum Permitted Gross Rear Axle Weight Rating Maximum Downball Weight
3.0l/170kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*MJ 1,480 kg 290 kg
3.0l/210kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*RJ 1,480 kg 230 kg
4.0l/310kW V8 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*WJ 1,510 kg 240 kg.
The spec I have found are very disappointing as we are looking for a replacement tow vehicle with performance but low tow ball weight and that rear axle weight leaves it off the list.
Brodie Allen said
10:16 AM Jan 5, 2023
Radar:
for what it's worth, I have had the V10 diesel since 2006.
It has cost me a gasket on one turbo, one front suspension air bag (damaged by idiot tyre people that did not press the suspension lock before putting the car on the hoist). All-up in 16 years and 280,000k $1800. This is all outside regular maintenance costs.
The VAST majority of these K's has been connected to a 21ft dual wheel van all over Australia.
My BMW X5 3L diesel is same mileage, bought same year, never pulled anything other than a horse float when the kids were going to pony club has cost just short of $21,000 in non servicing expenses. And the panoramic sunroof is buggered now also.
You can get a V10 for between $40 and $80 thousand from carsales etc.
It has stonking torque (mine was a special import and is considerably more powerful than the regular V10). Auto everything incl ride height, stiffness, difflocks etc etc.easily the best car that I have ever owned by a huge margin. comfort personified. R5 is the more powerful variant.
And despite what others have posted, my manual says that when connected to a trailer
rear axle load is 1800kg. and if it were a problem 200,000k with the big van would
surely have shown up any problem, one would think.
-- Edited by Brodie Allen on Thursday 5th of January 2023 10:21:34 AM
Radar said
08:51 AM Jan 6, 2023
Hi Brodie Allen.
With my reading about the Touregs the earlier version had some had better 4wd gadgets on the dial but discontinued them in the latter version, there also was a V10 version that was limited build to race in a long distance road rally across Europe to Mongolia.
As I previously mention in my post, I did spend some time behind the wheel of a V10 which I enjoyed, the level of luxury was very high, the air suspension was a dream, power was awesome but very gental to drive.
It was a "journalist review car" with all the extras, by memory SIL was the second journalist to review this new not many k's on it V10 in Australia.
We have had our Spanish built 3 ltr V6 Nissan Navara now more then 8 years, 190 000 k's, spent above normal maintance about $4000, plus $3000 on the suspension for towing. European diesels are loaded with performance and joy to drive.
I think the draw bar of a caravan is part of the over all design, you need a draw bar to attach the caravan to the car but the rest of the caravan design would dictate the length needed.
We have a draw bar on our caravan but I could not tell you whether it is long or short but it seems ideal for our 19.6 feet mid door, 2.7 tonne caravan.
Enjoy out there.
Ps. I am a little envious of your 2000kgs rear axle gross compared to our 1720kgs.
yobarr said
09:34 AM Jan 6, 2023
Ps. I am a little envious of your 2000kg rear axle gross compared to our 1720kgs.
Hi Ralph. Would you be able to advise where you found the rating of 2000kg rear axle? My figures show that axle rating is nowhere near that. Cheers
yobarr said
09:40 AM Jan 6, 2023
Brodie Allen wrote:
And despite what others have posted, my manual says that when connected to a trailer
rear axle load is 1800kg. and if it were a problem 200,000k with the big van would
surely have shown up any problem, one would think.
Hi Brodie. Interesting what your manual says. How on earth would they have any clue what your trailer weighs, towball download etc etc? . Again I will iterate, the ONLY way to establish that weight is to conduct a weighing exercise, using the method I've previously outlined. No cheating either? Cheers
KJB said
11:15 AM Jan 6, 2023
The "Scalies" will soon tell you if you have a weight problem........it is best and cheapest to weigh the axles (as they are when fully loaded and ready to set out on a trip), "do the sums" and rectify any short comings.
The consequence of not being legal can be the inconvenience of Fines and being stranded at a Weighing Station, away from home, after being told that the Rig is "overweight" and cannot go any further until the problem is fixed.
Brodie Allen said
11:35 AM Jan 6, 2023
"They don't need to know".
When the trailer is connected "things" happen to the suspension.
Stop worrying about the car - it is only used as a tug and has been doing so without
I am contemplating a new van and would appreciate comments from
knowledgable and experienced members on this subject.
Brodie
I can only speak from the perspective of a relatively small van. A Tvan - a hard topped off road camper. At various times they have been supplied with a 'long drawbar' & a 'short drawbar'. There is also a bolt on drawbar extension for those who have a short drawbar but would prefer a long drawbar.
Within Tvan owners there are mixed views about preferences for either, but 'long' has always been the most common - all new ones are long because they are supplied with front storage boxes which sit on the drawbar.
We have a long drawbar on ours. I think it has several advantages over the short. It gives more room between the rear of the car & the van & theoretically is more stable at speed, although the Tvan's axle placement pretty much guarantees that with either length. For me the major advantage of a longer drawbar is that it makes reversing far easier. A shorter drawbar makes it easier to get offline quicker. As a new owner I was terrible at reversing, but found it far easier to improve with the Tvan's longer drawbar than I ever had on the only other things I'd towed - box trailers which all had short drawbars.
Tvan owners with short drawbars claim they are more manoeuvrable off road & less likely to get caught up driving in & out of steep sided gullies. In theory most likely correct, but it's not a problem I've had with ours & unlikely an issue of consideration with a caravan. If I were buying a caravan I would certainly look for a longer drawbar for ease of reversing, but I would also be looking at where the axle placement was . Far enough back to give maximum stability at speed, but not so far back that it places too much weight on the tow hitch.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Sunday 1st of January 2023 04:07:17 PM
Cuppa has supplied a most helpful reply, but could I add that, in addition to all the advantages listed, the longer the drawbar the less weight is applied to your car"s towball, and thus to its rear axle. Many (most) tow vehicles are easily overloaded on their rear axle, a point understood by few and conveniently ignored by car salesmen, and some van retailers. If you could tell us what your tow vehicle is I can give advice on its towing abilities. You can safely ignore any information supplied by manufacturers where tow ratings are given. Happy to explain in detail if you wish, but knowing what your car is would beca good start. Cheers
P.S What part of Queensland are you in? North, South etc. Near Sunshine Coast?
I have all the weights under control other than down force on the ball - it measures slightly
over the desirable maximum - and this makes me wonder what happens to the rear suspension
of some vehicles when 'vanners add considerable weight to the drawbars with boxes of all
types with contents of generators, petrol etc etc.
This is when one needs a WDH for the vehicle's balance and stability - of course I have one.
(Anderson, simply amazing for a number of reasons).
My vehicle is a VW Touareg - the big daddy V10 - it's published capabilities give lots of latitude
for more weights GTM etc, than we ever need. It tows like the van isn't there.
(21ft Silverline Outback) I have had all the weights checked on a weighbridge.
Anyway thanks yobarr.
This is when one needs a WDH for the vehicle's balance and stability - of course I have one.
(Anderson, simply amazing for a number of reasons).
But from a stability point of view - how much extra length is needed to make any appreciable difference?
I suspect that many of the horrific rollovers may be reduced with longer drawbars.
Is there any sort of regulation as to how long they may be?
Maximum length of combined rig, for instance.
If the drawbar is too long could the greatly reduced downforce on the ball be a problem?
Is the additional length going to balance out the reduced ball downforce with the stability that
extra length provides?
What's the go in vanparks re length? (Not that I ever visit them - can't handle the claustrophobia)
Love to hear from someone who has one and their additional comments.
The highlighted words in Cuppa's post above brought to mind a caravan that I recently saw. To me, this van looked a bit strange so I did a bit of research that revealed that it was being marketed as suitable for a medium SUV (Hate that terminology!), with a ridiculously low towball weight quoted.
Forward length is more than 150% (1.5 times) greater than the rear overhang, meaning that high towball weight is likely. The figures I've supplied are conservative, with the actual figure being closer to 170%. (1.7 times).
It looks like a nice van, but would need a larger vehicle with a suitable towball capacity. The vast majority of caravan buyers have little understanding of weights and dynamics, and could easily find themselves overloaded. Buyers need to be aware that the plated tare means absolutely nothing. All I can suggest is Cavest Emptor. Cheers
P.S For obvious reasons I've covered any labels that would identify the make and model of the van, although I do realise that people like Montie would immediately know what it is! Cheers
Hmmm. Interesting that you are happy that you're under your GTM limit. Are you aware of the car's low GVM, short wheelbase and low rear axle carrying capacity? Whilst I am not aware of your van's ATM, a quick look at Mr Google suggests about 3200kg?
With the generally accepted 10% towball weight you'd have 320kg on your towball, putting (guess) around 430kg onto your car's rear axle.
Car has low carrying capacity, so with towball weight, fuel and a couple of passengers you'd have very little to spare.
BUT, in this case, a WDH would help by getting weight off the car's very lightweight rear axle and putting SOME weight back onto the car's front axle. However, some weight also goes onto your van's axle group, so you'd have to make sure that you your van's axle group rating is adequate. Happy to help if needed, but not all that glistens is gold. Weights are not as easy as some imagine! Cheers
P.S Overall length of car and van must not exceed 19 metres.
Overall length of caravan must not exceed 12.5 metres.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 1st of January 2023 10:43:09 PM
Brodie we took delivery of our new Concorde van in August it is 20' and it has an extended drawbar. I had been using a HR WDH with the previous Retreat (std length drawbar) but as I decided I was going to use the Andersen hitch so I asked them to fit a std. 50mm ball coupling. We just completed a 10,000km trip around Qld and before we left I had the fully loaded van weighed and the balance checked using a mobile weighing service. The report said that everything was good except for the towball weight which was a bit too light. They showed us how to move things around in the van to get the best balance and how we could transfer more weight to the ball. In the end I needed to add a little extra weight to the ball by filling a jerry can with water and putting it in the tunnel boot. I was surprised when they told me to lift the ball up a notch higher (20mm) in the receiver - the result on the scales was ithat 12kg was added to it. To answer some of your questions -
1) Towball weight was a bit light and may have been exagerated by having the longer (300mm) drawbar
2) Easier to reverse - I cant say that I noticed any difference between it and our previous 21.5' Retreat.
3) The longer drawbar definately has the advantage of allowing more room to fit the tool box, gas bottles and stone guard.
4) Probably due to the anti sway features of the Andersen there was no noticeable sideways movement even in strong cross winds or when passing road trains.
5) We did get a little bouncing in far west Qid because some of the road surfaces were badly deformed, even the car would bounce on them when not towing. We just slowed down as the warning signs suggested and it was fine..
6) With a 20' van the extra length on the drawbar didnt make much difference when staying in CPs as it ended up around the same length as our previous 21' van with the std drawbar.
7) The only disadvantage I found wasn't actually with the extended drawbar it was when disconnecting the Andersen Hitch I really needed to make sure that the tug and the van were aligned before dropping the chains otherwise hooking back can be a problem.
8) If I wanted to push the speed up to 120kph it did start to feel the rig was less stable but as we travel between 95 and 100 kph that wasnt really a problem.
By the way I tow with a Jeep GC and it pulled the 3.1T load with ease even up the ranges from Grafton to Glen Innes and the descent down to Innisfail from the Atherton Tablelands via the Palmerston Hwy..(my advice for those travelling between Atherton and Cairns is dont use the Gillies Hwy if you are towing a full size van)
Cheers BB
-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Monday 2nd of January 2023 08:27:03 AM
-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Monday 2nd of January 2023 08:28:03 AM
-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Monday 2nd of January 2023 08:32:38 AM
So far your post is the most informative we have.
I would be interested in a longer A frame as the 320 kg downforce is huge when you consider
the leverage between the ball and the rear axle. I reckon I would like to reduce this somewhat
to reduce strain on the rear suspension, which by the way is variable in stiffness and height.
Yobarr - I don't know what makes you think that theres a problem with my numbers - I am well
within the VW's figures - and have had the van and vehicle over the weighbridge. I would not
leave home otherwise - I have a friend in another State that wes an investigator for insurance
companies and he filled my terrified ear with cases where post accident insurance was refused
or modified. Even where in one instance reported that the van was damaged when the rig slid
off a greasy surface and down an embankment in the rain - "If the weights were correct the
accident may not have occurred".
Back to discussion re extended A frame:
Brodie, I would doubt that your TBW will be 320kg.
Looking at Jayco Silverline weights, at a Tare of 2600kg......TBW is about 180kg, ATM of 3200kg would result in about 260-280kg.
10% is only a rule of thumb and 8% is quite acceptable.
My van has an ATM of 3200 and the ball weight is 260 kg loaded.
The only problem I see with an extended A frame is that there is a tendency to load it up with tool boxes, bikes and jerry can holders.
Jack knife on an extended drawbar is a lot more than normal, without smashing a taillight, but I don't think there is much difference in reversing a large van, a small box trailer.....yes.
Cheers Bob
GCM 6,600
VW - Curb wt with 75 kg driver and fuel, etc. 2611kg
VW max wt. 3,300 kg less drawbar and curb wt. leaves 369 kg for load.
950 NM and 4wd auto diff and auto center lock makes for very secure towing.
Brodie
Barry
Try to imagine a say, 5 meter A - I can imagine that it would be near impossible to
loose it.
So far I have gleaned:
A longer A would probably (1) be more stable and (2) reduce down-weight on
the tow ball so that a hefty box on the A would not be a problem then with sway.
So far, so good. What about the negatives?
Hi Brodie.Great to see that you're acting responsibly with your weights.
Seems you've over-simplified things, however, as you will NEVER be able to reach your GVM while towing, as 320kg towball weight takes around 110kg off your car's front axle. There is absolutely NO question that the car has the mechanical ability to tow heavy loads, but the short wheelbase and very low rear axle carrying capacity are definite negatives.
What was your car's rear axle weight when you did your tests?
Advice from no-doubt good intentioned members could lead you astray, but I don't have time to point out your problems. One member suggests 8% towball weight is acceptable, and in certain situtions it can be.Many variables, but again I simply can't devote time to supply useful information.
Anyway, you've received enough support to convince youself that your figures are good, but I'll bow out.
However, I will iterate that your big problem is your lightweight rear axle.
As an aside, putting a "hefty" box in the 'A' frame is a No No, and unless you dramatically increased the length of your 'A' frame, you would achieve only a very small reduction in towball weight. First thing to do is load your car and van, set for travel, and ascertain weight on rear axle.
Easiest way is to weigh front axle of car, then drive whole car onto weighbridge. Subtract front axle weight from total, and obviously you would have your rear axle weight.
Throwing GCM into the equation is an efficient method of using "smoke and mirrors" to decieve people.
Again, congratulations on taking your weights seriousl, but be VERY careful. The VW is a beautiful car, but with limitations.
Not all that glistens is Gold! Cheers
I can't get a handle on your concerns -
According to my numbers that are on my post, even after allowing for a weighty
driver and full tank of diesel, and the downforce on the ball, I still have 370 kg
for load in the car.
And the Anderson WDH takes care of the front wheel downforce.
I don't understand the smoke and mirrors and "very low rear axle carrying capacity"
(reduced by the Anderson) that you mention in your post.
Where/how did you form the opinion that the VW has a "very lightweight rear axle"?
(The VW does not have a rear axle at all) and the published loading is 1800kg max.
Methinks you have the wrong car?
No, Brodie, I do not have the wrong car. If you do have a figure of 1800kg as rear axle carrying capacity, that is different from my figures, which I found after much research.
However, that rear axle carrying capacity is pathetic, with the more popular twin-cabs having both a much lower tare, and a higher axle capacity. You no doubt are aware that a WDH adds weight to your van's axle group, which can cause you to exceed the rating of your axle group?
You no doubt have seen the figures that I provided regarding legal vehicle lengths, and you will have noted that I advised that any increase in drawbar length will have only a minimal effect on towball weight.
However, your car has a short TBO which will help to counter the effects of the short wheelbase, but I will say again that rear axle weight will be a concern. When you had your fully laden setup weighed, did you establish the actual weight on the rear axle, or rear wheels, if you insist? Again I will suggest that you weigh your fully laden, ready for travel, car and van, carefully recording all the weights. My van weighs 3500kg, with 350kg towball weight, (maybe a little bit less than 350kg because the car weighs 3650kg) , and when hooked up to my car the weight on the car's rear axle is 2300kg. Your van is slightly lighter, but your rear axle carrying capacity is WAY lower. Again I congratulate you on taking weights seriously, but beware of no doubt good intentioned advice that 8% TBW is enough. This is sometimes possible when you have a much heavier vehicle towing a lighter van, but not when a car with GVM of 3300kg is towing a 3200kg van.
As I have said previously, weights are a mine field, particularly when you receive advice from anyone with a vested interest. Good luck. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 3rd of January 2023 11:18:06 PM
I have one on my van and not because I want to stack tool boxes all over it. I just have the two gas bottles and a tray which I carry the jockey wheel in.
My reason for liking the extended bar is for the same reason I like the axle positioning in the photo yobarr supplied of the anonymous van. It tends to aid stability. I have always had a good towing trailer when they had those features.
manual is as I posted. Why do you think that that is pathetic?
The ball weight is as the workshop measured. Its a standard van other than a recent
install of lithium which will reduce the ball weight somewhat.
I don't agree that a WDH will add weight to the vehicles axle group. The Anderson
would be lucky to weigh 10 kg. overall but the only weight on the car is an aluminium spindle
and towball.
Fully loaded and attached to car:
Car 3250
Van 3.05
Hi Brodie. My first reaction was to just let it go, but you seem well confused, so I will try to help.
The WDH adds weight to the VANs axle group. Not negotiable. WDH also adds weight to your car's front axle, usually around 75% weight transferred from rear axle, depending on wheelbase, TBO and forward length of van.
The plated towball weight on your van means absolutely nothing, and is rarely accurate. Manufacturers may keep stated towball weight down to make their product more attractive to owners of cars with low towball capacity. Smokes and Mirrors.
Not exactly dishonest, but perhaps unconscionable conduct?
Your figures above show car to be close to 10% heavier than your van, so that's fantastic, but I again suggest that you establish the weight on your car's rear wheels when you're loaded and ready to travel. Earlier I outlined how to accurately do this.
Good luck Brodie. Cheers
Interesting to read in the spec of VW Touregs varing wheel carrying ratings from as low as 700 kgs each wheel to a high of 800 kgs per wheel.
So my thoughts are the rear axle of a Toureg is only good for 1800 Kgs.
If you can supply a better link, I like a read of the specs.
I have driven one back about 2008, I thought it was a V10 and it was an awesome.
If you reckon that the VW is piddling - lookee here for rear axle loading
on a well-known ute.
Dunno if this works:
Pic here somewhere.
-- Edited by Brodie Allen on Wednesday 4th of January 2023 01:18:17 PM
Pathetic, isn't it. And people get sucked in by unethical marketing and unprincipled salesmen. However, it needs to be noted that this not a "normal" Ranger, rather its baby brother. Bit like an over-rated Ram 1500 relying on its Big Brother for some unwarranted credibility. Sadly, most people just do not understand weights and are easily conned. Caveat Emptor. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 4th of January 2023 10:05:48 PM
Why would you pick the Ranger Raptor? That is the powerful, sporty petrol version and a poor choice for towing. The regular Ranger is far more suitable for towing.
Here, let me do the same. The current VW Touareg has 1470kg rear axle loading. What a poor choice that would be.
And yes, I realise it is not the same beast as you have, just as you realise you posted Raptor specs instead of the far more towing capable diesel Rangers.
But looking at those figures highlights how ridiculous and misleading specs have become. With such a low rear axle load rating and a quoted Tare of 2218kg in the brochure (download here) it would be hard pressed to safely tow much more than a 2000kg van. Tare 2218 + people + a toothbrush and you probably have about 150kg available for towball load (which would add over 200kg to rear axle load). Sure, more with a dog trailer, but there is no such mention.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 4th of January 2023 04:25:19 PM
Towing Capacity
Towing Capacity
Variant Model Code Maximum Permitted Gross Rear Axle Weight Rating Maximum Downball Weight
3.0l/170kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*MJ 1,480 kg 290 kg
3.0l/210kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*RJ 1,480 kg 230 kg
4.0l/310kW V8 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*WJ 1,510 kg 240 kg
NOTE: The Maximum Permitted Gross Rear Axle Weight Rating is inclusive of the Maximum Downball Weight and must not be exceeded. The Maximum Downball Weight must also not be exceeded. !
Maximum Permitted Gross Rear Axle Weight Rating and Maximum Downball Weight
Variant Model Code Maximum Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) Maximum Gross Combination Mass (GCM)
3.0l/170kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*MJ 2,850 kg 6,350 kg
3.0l/210kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*RJ 2,850 kg 6,350 kg
4.0l/310kW V8 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*WJ 3,000 kg 6,500 .
Variant Model Code Maximum Permitted Gross Rear Axle Weight Rating Maximum Downball Weight
3.0l/170kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*MJ 1,480 kg 290 kg
3.0l/210kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*RJ 1,480 kg 230 kg
4.0l/310kW V8 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*WJ 1,510 kg 240 kgVariant Model Code Maximum Permitted Gross Rear Axle Weight Rating Maximum Downball Weight
3.0l/170kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*MJ 1,480 kg 290 kg
3.0l/210kW V6 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*RJ 1,480 kg 230 kg
4.0l/310kW V8 4V TDI EU6 with Start Stop CR7*WJ 1,510 kg 240 kg.
The spec I have found are very disappointing as we are looking for a replacement tow vehicle with performance but low tow ball weight and that rear axle weight leaves it off the list.
Radar:
for what it's worth, I have had the V10 diesel since 2006.
It has cost me a gasket on one turbo, one front suspension air bag (damaged by idiot
tyre people that did not press the suspension lock before putting the car
on the hoist). All-up in 16 years and 280,000k $1800.
This is all outside regular maintenance costs.
The VAST majority of these K's has been connected to a 21ft dual wheel van all over
Australia.
My BMW X5 3L diesel is same mileage, bought same year, never pulled anything other than a
horse float when the kids were going to pony club has cost just short of $21,000
in non servicing expenses. And the panoramic sunroof is buggered now also.
You can get a V10 for between $40 and $80 thousand from carsales etc.
It has stonking torque (mine was a special import and is considerably more powerful
than the regular V10). Auto everything incl ride height, stiffness, difflocks etc etc.easily the
best car that I have ever owned by a huge margin. comfort personified. R5 is the
more powerful variant.
And despite what others have posted, my manual says that when connected to a trailer
rear axle load is 1800kg. and if it were a problem 200,000k with the big van would
surely have shown up any problem, one would think.
-- Edited by Brodie Allen on Thursday 5th of January 2023 10:21:34 AM
Hi Brodie Allen.
With my reading about the Touregs the earlier version had some had better 4wd gadgets on the dial but discontinued them in the latter version, there also was a V10 version that was limited build to race in a long distance road rally across Europe to Mongolia.
As I previously mention in my post, I did spend some time behind the wheel of a V10 which I enjoyed, the level of luxury was very high, the air suspension was a dream, power was awesome but very gental to drive.
It was a "journalist review car" with all the extras, by memory SIL was the second journalist to review this new not many k's on it V10 in Australia.
We have had our Spanish built 3 ltr V6 Nissan Navara now more then 8 years, 190 000 k's, spent above normal maintance about $4000, plus $3000 on the suspension for towing. European diesels are loaded with performance and joy to drive.
I think the draw bar of a caravan is part of the over all design, you need a draw bar to attach the caravan to the car but the rest of the caravan design would dictate the length needed.
We have a draw bar on our caravan but I could not tell you whether it is long or short but it seems ideal for our 19.6 feet mid door, 2.7 tonne caravan.
Enjoy out there.
Ps. I am a little envious of your 2000kgs rear axle gross compared to our 1720kgs.
Ps. I am a little envious of your 2000kg rear axle gross compared to our 1720kgs.
Hi Ralph. Would you be able to advise where you found the rating of 2000kg rear axle? My figures show that axle rating is nowhere near that. Cheers
Hi Brodie. Interesting what your manual says. How on earth would they have any clue what your trailer weighs, towball download etc etc? . Again I will iterate, the ONLY way to establish that weight is to conduct a weighing exercise, using the method I've previously outlined. No cheating either? Cheers
The "Scalies" will soon tell you if you have a weight problem........it is best and cheapest to weigh the axles (as they are when fully loaded and ready to set out on a trip), "do the sums" and rectify any short comings.
The consequence of not being legal can be the inconvenience of Fines and being stranded at a Weighing Station, away from home, after being told that the Rig is "overweight" and cannot go any further until the problem is fixed.
"They don't need to know".
When the trailer is connected "things" happen to the suspension.
Stop worrying about the car - it is only used as a tug and has been doing so without
event for easily 200,000k. (380,000 overall).