I read this morning that the New Zealand supreme court has ruled that failing to allow 16 year olds to vote is discrimination and, thus, parliament must consider changing the law.
I also read that, in Australia, there is a significant push to raise the age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14.
Therefore if these two changes come to fruition, and they may well, we are saying that children are so immature at age 13 years 364 days they are unable to make a valid judgement between right and wrong.
Yet, within the space of two years, their thinking and understanding of society, economics, morality and international issues has rocketed to the point they are able to form an objective opinion for choosing a government.
Having raised my own children and observed many others that is not my experience of the teenage development process.
Are We Lost said
12:18 PM Nov 22, 2022
Also not mature enough to drink alcohol, drive a car or sign legal documents.
And the Age of Consent laws for SA and TAS still consider 16 year olds incapable of making a decision regarding consensual sex, stating "a child does not have the decision-making capacity to give consent according to law."
The maturity of many is on display this very week.
The filth and damage they leave after schoolies is enough.
I cant imagine any of those responsible for that should be making any decision on the future of our country.
There is another agenda to lower the voting age and it loosely revolves around teachers influence and their general support for one side of politics.
It is not hard to guess which side as we only have to observe who is recommending these changes.
Unfortunately teacher politics plays a big part in influencing the behaviour of our adolescents.
blissonwheels said
12:52 PM Nov 23, 2022
Gooday,
I would rather see that VOTING age AND the DRINKING age restored to 21 Years of age, we all experienced that and did no harm, we were at least Mature enough to make reasonable decisions, after all that is still the case In USA.
Cheers, Bliss On Wheels.
dorian said
03:10 PM Nov 23, 2022
blissonwheels wrote:
Gooday,
I would rather see that VOTING age AND the DRINKING age restored to 21 Years of age, we all experienced that and did no harm, we were at least Mature enough to make reasonable decisions, after all that is still the case In USA.
Cheers, Bliss On Wheels.
You can kill and die for your country at the age of 18 ...
86GTS said
03:15 PM Nov 23, 2022
The wife & I were only speaking about age milestones the other day.
Turning 21years of age doesn't seem to be as important as what it used to be.
Basically its been replaced by turning 18 years of age.
Looking back on our own lives there was a heck of a lot of difference in our maturity at 21 than at 18.
Voting at 16 is ridiculous IMO.
deverall11 said
04:24 PM Nov 23, 2022
Until politics of sort is taught at school, you may as well make the voting age 60.
Most at 16/1 or 21 will vote for a certain party because that's what mum and dad did.
The only time this may differ is when they decide to jump on the bandwagon of some
fruitcake group like Extinction Rebellion. And they would only do that because it's 'cool'
not because they believe in the cause, what ever that may be.
Monkey see monkey do.
peter67 said
10:43 AM Nov 24, 2022
When I learnt to drive in the sixties the legal age in new Zealand was 15yo for a full licence, helped by the fact that I started driving at 14.
Timberjack69 said
01:16 PM Nov 26, 2022
I suppose if they are old enough to work for a living they should be entitled to vote.
There are a lot of much older people around that aren't mature or educated enough to vote but still get the oportunity to do so.
yobarr said
02:53 PM Nov 26, 2022
Timberjack69 wrote:
I suppose if they are old enough to work for a living they should be entitled to vote. There are a lot of much older people around that aren't mature or educated enough to vote but still get the oportunity to do so.
Was waiting for someone to suggest that. The "Gimme" brigade now has become too large. Perhaps the solution is to have to pass an intelligence test before being allowed to vote? Nah, they'd then cry "discrimination" or some such. Cheers
Mike Harding said
03:41 PM Nov 26, 2022
Timberjack69 wrote:
I suppose if they are old enough to work for a living they should be entitled to vote.
It seems to me there is a valid argument the voting age should be no higher than the minimum age for drafting into the armed forces but iirc my children had part time jobs from about 14 years however I don't recall them understanding much about democracy and voting at that time.
deverall11 said
10:41 AM Nov 28, 2022
Mike Harding wrote:
Timberjack69 wrote:
I suppose if they are old enough to work for a living they should be entitled to vote.
It seems to me there is a valid argument the voting age should be no higher than the minimum age for drafting into the armed forces but iirc my children had part time jobs from about 14 years however I don't recall them understanding much about democracy and voting at that time.
Hence my point about a basic level of politics being taught in schools as part of year 11 or year 12
curriculum. This needs to be an unbiased general overview. Force them to think.
Possum3 said
10:53 AM Nov 28, 2022
Unfortunately, most institutions of learning tend to be left wing to the extreme.
As for drafting young misfits into armed services - Would you want to be on the front line with some kid that doesn't want to be there, backing you up?
rgren2 said
10:55 AM Nov 28, 2022
deverall11 wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Timberjack69 wrote:
I suppose if they are old enough to work for a living they should be entitled to vote.
It seems to me there is a valid argument the voting age should be no higher than the minimum age for drafting into the armed forces but iirc my children had part time jobs from about 14 years however I don't recall them understanding much about democracy and voting at that time.
Hence my point about a basic level of politics being taught in schools as part of year 11 or year 12
curriculum. This needs to be an unbiased general overview. Force them to think.
Students select subjects in years 11 & 12, English is compulsory, students vote with their feet, small subjects that are made compulsory are treated as a waste of time by the students, classes are difficult to teach and teachers usually hate being nominated to teach them, the subject is written by a head of department and is biased to that persons ideals, as a teacher you must follow that curriculum. We had in my last school a subject for year 10 that attempted to teach them taxation, job applications and filled out their application for a tax file number. Each one period per week had to be the same lesson for each class, there was no time to assist students to catch up if that lesson was missed. Teachers hated getting these classes.
deverall11 said
06:55 PM Nov 28, 2022
Yep, let's not make any changes and wallow in our ignorance for the next 100 years.
I note the general curriculum was modified some time back regarding reading, writing
and arithmetics supposedly for the better.
Result: more the ever kids can't read, cant write and definitely cannot do simple
arithmetics.
Ever been in a supermarkets, bought goods that totalled $10.50 for example and
gave the young lass at the cash register $20.50. Did he or she tried to give you
back the $0.50. But the cash register said I have to give you back $9.50.
peter67 said
12:42 PM Nov 29, 2022
And don't EVER ask for half a dozen of anything...:)
dorian said
01:12 PM Nov 29, 2022
Mike Harding wrote:
Therefore if these two changes come to fruition, and they may well, we are saying that children are so immature at age 13 years 364 days they are unable to make a valid judgement between right and wrong.
Yet, within the space of two years, their thinking and understanding of society, economics, morality and international issues has rocketed to the point they are able to form an objective opinion for choosing a government.
16-year-olds won't need to understand society, economics, morality and international issues. They will have their own agenda, with their own specific, adolescent wants and needs which the various political parties will then need to accommodate.
Craig1 said
04:46 PM Nov 29, 2022
Asking for a Dozen Naughty Boys brings them undone as well.
Laminex said
09:12 PM Jan 15, 2023
I've met a lot of kids 16 and younger who are more mature than some of the idiots in Parliament. Especially country kids who are used to responsibility. Give credit where credit is due.
rgren2 said
09:20 PM Jan 15, 2023
Laminex wrote:
I've met a lot of kids 16 and younger who are more mature than some of the idiots in Parliament. Especially country kids who are used to responsibility. Give credit where credit is due.
Where did you meet these kids?
Bicyclecamper said
10:52 PM Jan 15, 2023
Out here in the bush. Their is a 16 year old currently running his family's farm, as his dad is now a quadreplegic. He has been given his "P"'s, can drive HR license rated trucks, to get goods, take cattle to the sale yards and abi's This young mans head is screwed on like most farm raised kids!
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Sunday 15th of January 2023 11:01:41 PM
rgren2 said
11:04 PM Jan 15, 2023
Bicyclecamper wrote:
Out here in the bush. Their is a 16 year old currently running his family's farm, as his dad is now a quadreplegic. He has been given his "P"'s, can drive HR license rated trucks, to get goods, take cattle to the sale yards and abi'sl This young mans head is screwed on.
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Sunday 15th of January 2023 10:57:22 PM
Lots of kids was the statement.
I too was driving wheat trucks with a licence at a very young age. Yes, there are exceptional kids out there. Lots, I doubt it. Yes, Ive met lots, more than the average person.
smwhiskey said
10:47 AM Jan 16, 2023
Mike Harding wrote:
I read this morning that the New Zealand supreme court has ruled that failing to allow 16 year olds to vote is discrimination and, thus, parliament must consider changing the law.
Dunno who's driving this in the NZ but in Australia its the Greens. Frankly I'm suspicious of motives when a political party/lobby group comes out with something like this. So suspicious in this case that I'm guessing theres been some research somewhere that implies that the 16-18 demographics favours the Greens over the traditional political parties.
Simon
deverall11 said
11:28 AM Jan 16, 2023
X2, desperate for votes irrespective of implications long term or short term. Typical of the Greens.
yobarr said
12:42 PM Jan 16, 2023
deverall11 wrote:
X2, desperate for votes irrespective of implications long term or short term. Typical of the Greens.
And of those who wouldn't know anything about hard Labor. (Think about it!)Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 16th of January 2023 02:32:07 PM
Cube said
09:47 AM Jan 17, 2023
peter67 wrote:
When I learnt to drive in the sixties the legal age in new Zealand was 15yo for a full licence, helped by the fact that I started driving at 14.
Yep, On my 15th Birthday, on the day too, I grabbed Mums car, drove to the Local cop shop, sat my drivers license and drove home with a full legit license. A pretty quick multi test, 3 random questions asked by sergeant to get right (one was 'what is a yellow triangle on the road' answer was pointing to a hydrant I think, been a few years :) then a whiz around the block with said sergeant in the car asking to do a 3 point turn and a reverse maneuver.
About an hour in total from leaving home to getting back.
Oh times have changed. This was in 1970.
Xyz said
10:13 AM Jan 17, 2023
Cube, just interested as to where you are from??
Likewise I did something similar except I did'nt drive down alone I was with my licensed brother and on my "Ls"I was 16( the driving age in SA at the time).
Cheers
StewG said
01:56 PM Jan 17, 2023
It seems to me that age alone is not an accurate predictor of intelligence, knowledge or wisdom. We can all cite individuals who were suitably responsible at age 15 or others who were irresponsible at 21+. 18 years is simply chosen as being a convenient age to grant privileges like adulthood, military service, alcohol consumption and voting. I see no valid reason to change that status. IIRC it was Labor under Whitlam that changed the voting age (and adulthood) from 21 to 18 because Labor perceived an electoral advantage to themselves. I suspect that any political party pushing for a reduction in the voting age does so for the same reasons.
Laminex said
10:57 AM Jan 21, 2023
In the country. You know, ones on stations that can drive as soon as they can reach the pedals, ones that can have conversations with adults. They are there. Yes there are plenty of ratbag teenagers out there, but don't tar everyone with the same brush. As I say, there are plenty of adults who should go back to school to learn the three R's, and gain some social skills.
Ivan 01 said
10:23 AM Jan 22, 2023
rgren2 wrote:
deverall11 wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Timberjack69 wrote:
I suppose if they are old enough to work for a living they should be entitled to vote.
It seems to me there is a valid argument the voting age should be no higher than the minimum age for drafting into the armed forces but iirc my children had part time jobs from about 14 years however I don't recall them understanding much about democracy and voting at that time.
Hence my point about a basic level of politics being taught in schools as part of year 11 or year 12
curriculum. This needs to be an unbiased general overview. Force them to think.
Students select subjects in years 11 & 12, English is compulsory, students vote with their feet, small subjects that are made compulsory are treated as a waste of time by the students, classes are difficult to teach and teachers usually hate being nominated to teach them, the subject is written by a head of department and is biased to that persons ideals, as a teacher you must follow that curriculum. We had in my last school a subject for year 10 that attempted to teach them taxation, job applications and filled out their application for a tax file number. Each one period per week had to be the same lesson for each class, there was no time to assist students to catch up if that lesson was missed. Teachers hated getting these classes.
Thank you rgren2 for your accurate observation. I completely agree.
From watching my grandchildren the senior school curriculum seems to be too complicated. My thoughts are to set the subjects considered necessary at least state wide (federally would be better) and avoid all other distractions including as rgren2 said above, any subject that may include the content of an individual teachers beliefs.
In a topic which has since been removed a member attempted to explain that children need guidance and want to learn. From my observations as a tradesman for all of my working life, I would have children ( young adults ) come to me as apprentices and many of them would shine in the studies and in their work because they were doing and more to the point, learning something that they were interested in. The comments by the forum member were more the subject of aboriginal kids but really it does, in my opinion, apply to all.
It frightens me that teachers might be given the control to set a course on politics. It frightens me that there might exist any political influence in any school but we all know that in the real life it does exist.
There are those that feel politics should not be taught at home and others believe that parents should instruct their children in such matters.
Well wether politics are taught at home or at school if the voting age is 21 as it used to be it gives many children or adolescents time to form an independent view.
Raising old cliches of national service does not apply today and I would hope and imagine that it wont happen in this country in the future.
My view is that those proposing lowering the voting age is a very poor attempt to *buy* votes for the party that is advocating that change.
I can not see that any party would put the voting age back to 21 so we are stuck with the voting age of 18.
To consider following anything that Jacinta Adern might suggest would be at our peril. It is not difficult to be a good leader when your entire agenda revolves around easy to get votes. Unfortunately this is not isolated to NZ
To suggest an age where a person becomes responsible for a crime is difficult but if setting an age then set it low, then have an age range included where parents or guardians will be held responsible LEGALLY for their childs actions.
The recent resignation of Jacinta Adern is a perfect example why we in Australia should consider very carefully any change in legislation or law from any political party. In our country the Voice for aboriginals ( referred to as a train wreck on this mornings radio and TV ) is a classic as is the present prime minister publicly supporting an American business tycoon Bill Gates with regard to our climate policy when in true form the entire management could easily change within a short time.
I read this morning that the New Zealand supreme court has ruled that failing to allow 16 year olds to vote is discrimination and, thus, parliament must consider changing the law.
I also read that, in Australia, there is a significant push to raise the age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14.
Therefore if these two changes come to fruition, and they may well, we are saying that children are so immature at age 13 years 364 days they are unable to make a valid judgement between right and wrong.
Yet, within the space of two years, their thinking and understanding of society, economics, morality and international issues has rocketed to the point they are able to form an objective opinion for choosing a government.
Having raised my own children and observed many others that is not my experience of the teenage development process.
Also not mature enough to drink alcohol, drive a car or sign legal documents.
And the Age of Consent laws for SA and TAS still consider 16 year olds incapable of making a decision regarding consensual sex, stating "a child does not have the decision-making capacity to give consent according to law."
Source: Australian Institute of Family Studies
The filth and damage they leave after schoolies is enough.
I cant imagine any of those responsible for that should be making any decision on the future of our country.
There is another agenda to lower the voting age and it loosely revolves around teachers influence and their general support for one side of politics.
It is not hard to guess which side as we only have to observe who is recommending these changes.
Unfortunately teacher politics plays a big part in influencing the behaviour of our adolescents.
Gooday,
I would rather see that VOTING age AND the DRINKING age restored to 21 Years of age, we all experienced that and did no harm, we were at least Mature enough to make reasonable decisions, after all that is still the case In USA.
Cheers, Bliss On Wheels.
You can kill and die for your country at the age of 18 ...
Turning 21years of age doesn't seem to be as important as what it used to be.
Basically its been replaced by turning 18 years of age.
Looking back on our own lives there was a heck of a lot of difference in our maturity at 21 than at 18.
Voting at 16 is ridiculous IMO.
Most at 16/1 or 21 will vote for a certain party because that's what mum and dad did.
The only time this may differ is when they decide to jump on the bandwagon of some
fruitcake group like Extinction Rebellion. And they would only do that because it's 'cool'
not because they believe in the cause, what ever that may be.
Monkey see monkey do.
Was waiting for someone to suggest that. The "Gimme" brigade now has become too large. Perhaps the solution is to have to pass an intelligence test before being allowed to vote? Nah, they'd then cry "discrimination" or some such. Cheers
It seems to me there is a valid argument the voting age should be no higher than the minimum age for drafting into the armed forces but iirc my children had part time jobs from about 14 years however I don't recall them understanding much about democracy and voting at that time.
Hence my point about a basic level of politics being taught in schools as part of year 11 or year 12
curriculum. This needs to be an unbiased general overview. Force them to think.
As for drafting young misfits into armed services - Would you want to be on the front line with some kid that doesn't want to be there, backing you up?
Students select subjects in years 11 & 12, English is compulsory, students vote with their feet, small subjects that are made compulsory are treated as a waste of time by the students, classes are difficult to teach and teachers usually hate being nominated to teach them, the subject is written by a head of department and is biased to that persons ideals, as a teacher you must follow that curriculum. We had in my last school a subject for year 10 that attempted to teach them taxation, job applications and filled out their application for a tax file number. Each one period per week had to be the same lesson for each class, there was no time to assist students to catch up if that lesson was missed. Teachers hated getting these classes.
I note the general curriculum was modified some time back regarding reading, writing
and arithmetics supposedly for the better.
Result: more the ever kids can't read, cant write and definitely cannot do simple
arithmetics.
Ever been in a supermarkets, bought goods that totalled $10.50 for example and
gave the young lass at the cash register $20.50. Did he or she tried to give you
back the $0.50. But the cash register said I have to give you back $9.50.
16-year-olds won't need to understand society, economics, morality and international issues. They will have their own agenda, with their own specific, adolescent wants and needs which the various political parties will then need to accommodate.
I've met a lot of kids 16 and younger who are more mature than some of the idiots in Parliament. Especially country kids who are used to responsibility. Give credit where credit is due.
Where did you meet these kids?
Out here in the bush. Their is a 16 year old currently running his family's farm, as his dad is now a quadreplegic. He has been given his "P"'s, can drive HR license rated trucks, to get goods, take cattle to the sale yards and abi's This young mans head is screwed on like most farm raised kids!
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Sunday 15th of January 2023 11:01:41 PM
Lots of kids was the statement.
I too was driving wheat trucks with a licence at a very young age. Yes, there are exceptional kids out there. Lots, I doubt it. Yes, Ive met lots, more than the average person.
Dunno who's driving this in the NZ but in Australia its the Greens. Frankly I'm suspicious of motives when a political party/lobby group comes out with something like this. So suspicious in this case that I'm guessing theres been some research somewhere that implies that the 16-18 demographics favours the Greens over the traditional political parties.
Simon
And of those who wouldn't know anything about hard Labor. (Think about it!)Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 16th of January 2023 02:32:07 PM
Yep, On my 15th Birthday, on the day too, I grabbed Mums car, drove to the Local cop shop, sat my drivers license and drove home with a full legit license. A pretty quick multi test, 3 random questions asked by sergeant to get right (one was 'what is a yellow triangle on the road' answer was pointing to a hydrant I think, been a few years :) then a whiz around the block with said sergeant in the car asking to do a 3 point turn and a reverse maneuver.
About an hour in total from leaving home to getting back.
Oh times have changed. This was in 1970.
Likewise I did something similar except I did'nt drive down alone I was with my licensed brother and on my "Ls"I was 16( the driving age in SA at the time).
Cheers
In the country. You know, ones on stations that can drive as soon as they can reach the pedals, ones that can have conversations with adults. They are there. Yes there are plenty of ratbag teenagers out there, but don't tar everyone with the same brush. As I say, there are plenty of adults who should go back to school to learn the three R's, and gain some social skills.
Thank you rgren2 for your accurate observation. I completely agree.
From watching my grandchildren the senior school curriculum seems to be too complicated. My thoughts are to set the subjects considered necessary at least state wide (federally would be better) and avoid all other distractions including as rgren2 said above, any subject that may include the content of an individual teachers beliefs.
In a topic which has since been removed a member attempted to explain that children need guidance and want to learn. From my observations as a tradesman for all of my working life, I would have children ( young adults ) come to me as apprentices and many of them would shine in the studies and in their work because they were doing and more to the point, learning something that they were interested in. The comments by the forum member were more the subject of aboriginal kids but really it does, in my opinion, apply to all.
It frightens me that teachers might be given the control to set a course on politics. It frightens me that there might exist any political influence in any school but we all know that in the real life it does exist.
There are those that feel politics should not be taught at home and others believe that parents should instruct their children in such matters.
Well wether politics are taught at home or at school if the voting age is 21 as it used to be it gives many children or adolescents time to form an independent view.
Raising old cliches of national service does not apply today and I would hope and imagine that it wont happen in this country in the future.
My view is that those proposing lowering the voting age is a very poor attempt to *buy* votes for the party that is advocating that change.
I can not see that any party would put the voting age back to 21 so we are stuck with the voting age of 18.
To consider following anything that Jacinta Adern might suggest would be at our peril. It is not difficult to be a good leader when your entire agenda revolves around easy to get votes. Unfortunately this is not isolated to NZ
To suggest an age where a person becomes responsible for a crime is difficult but if setting an age then set it low, then have an age range included where parents or guardians will be held responsible LEGALLY for their childs actions.
The recent resignation of Jacinta Adern is a perfect example why we in Australia should consider very carefully any change in legislation or law from any political party. In our country the Voice for aboriginals ( referred to as a train wreck on this mornings radio and TV ) is a classic as is the present prime minister publicly supporting an American business tycoon Bill Gates with regard to our climate policy when in true form the entire management could easily change within a short time.
I hope Bill is not here to pick up a cheque.