My sister is a Psychologist specialising in narcissistic family members and as we have experienced first hand some influence of the destructive actions of a person with this disorder I wonder if others may have had similar and how you have dealt with the problem.
Here is what my sister gave to me to help with recognising this disorder in people in the future,
NPD
Narcissistic personality disorder one of several types of personality disorders is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.
There are many types and levels of NPD.
There are Overt Narcissists.
There are Covert Narcissists.
There are then variations of the above and the common two are Maternal and Paternal types.
Many Overt Narcissists are managers and those in control any decision is non negotiable and it is usually their way or the highway.
There is very little negotiation with an Overt Narcissist.
Covert Narcissists on the other hand will talk behind your back, triangulate friendships and family relationships while denying any input of that kind.
Generally Covert Narcissists at work appear quite efficient and successful and will put other workmates down to their supervisor or employer.
After a time the astute employer usually sees through these people.
When the Covert Narcissist leaves their employment the excuse is almost always that another employee was making it hard for them by actually doing what that very Narcissist was doing to others.
This is extremely common.
On more rare occasions the covert and overt traits can be played by the one person. This combination generally comes from those with the disorder while having a level of high intelligence.
Some of the easily identifiable traits of those with NPD are.
* Viewing themselves as greatly superior and important in comparison to others
* Lacking empathy and understanding of others perspectives
* Always having the last say
* Continually needing admiration from others
* Feeling humiliated, degraded and empty when receiving criticism
* Often preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, or brilliance
* Believing you can only be understood by other special or high-status people
* Have a sense of entitlement about the treatment you deserve
* Taking advantage of others to achieve something for yourself
* Being envious of others or believing they are envious of you
* A grandiose sense of self-importance without commensurate achievement.
* A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love.
* A belief that they are special and unique, and can only be understood by, or should be associated with, other special or high-status people or institutions.
* A requirement of excessive admiration.
* A sense of entitlement, that is, unreasonable expectations of especially favourable treatment or automatic compliance with their expectations.
* Interpersonally exploitative, that is, take advantage of others to achieve their ends.
* A lack of empathy, that is, an unwillingness or inability to recognise or identify with the feelings or needs of others.
* Envy of others, or generally a misguided belief that others are envious of them.
* A demonstration of arrogant, haughty behaviour or attitudes.
* Splitting the world into all good and all bad people are either devalued or idolised.
Very few Narcissists seek therapy themselves, as they tend to blame others for any failings they have.
If they do, the goal is to teach them to consciously think of others, and try to empathise. Therapy can help them recognise the feelings of shame underlying their grandiose dreams and plans. They can develop a more realistic and caring approach to life and relationships when they begin to accept their hidden aspects.
Without this awareness they can explode in rage, or collapse into depression as a result of the narcissistic wounding they experience from failure or criticism.
Addictions are often a way of hiding the shame underlying a narcissistic presentation.
It needs to be noted that if experiencing the wrath of anyone with NPD that by their very nature they have no compassion or empathy and if that person appears to be displaying sympathy toward you then be very aware that this will generally result in more hurt or at the minimum will be just another tool to prove themselves superior.
-- Edited by RickJ on Thursday 27th of October 2022 03:48:20 PM
Mike Harding said
04:12 PM Oct 27, 2022
I think you are correct.
KJB said
04:17 PM Oct 27, 2022
Mike Harding wrote:
I think you are correct.
I know that RickJ is correct (from experience) . A Post well worth reading and remembering.
dorian said
05:02 PM Oct 27, 2022
Sounds like the definition of a sociopath ...
Collo said
05:44 PM Oct 27, 2022
Our son had a two year relationship with a girl that was eventually diagnosed with BPD (borderline personality disorder) in the same family as NPD.
To say those two years as stressful and traumatic is a understatement. When she was nice, she was lovely, but when she was having a episode, she was the devil.
Verbally and physically violent, cunning, manipulative and distorts the truth to suit her advantage. My wife was subject to a torrent of aggressive phone calls and texts.
She would self harm, cutting herself and burning herself with cigarettes.
Our son tried his best to get help, calling a ambulance twice, taking her to hospital one time, only to be turned away. Covid lockdowns didn't help.
Recently they seperated as it was just too much for our son, affecting his mental health.
They share a 20 month old daughter, which has complicated the issue. Currently they are co parenting with our son getting access once a fortnight, which is not enough.
How have we navigated the situation? Our son has learnt to only do hand over of their daughter in public so to minisise any chance of a outburst. The only contact they have is about their daughter.
We have no contact at all now, although the last time we arrived at our son's house, she was there but was OK.
BPD and NPD are serious mental health issues that are very hard to get a good result. Medication can help, but they usually stop taking the meds.
Our answer was too get out of the relationship.
Collo.
Ivan 01 said
10:11 AM Oct 28, 2022
A great post RickJ with some very good information.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a terrible condition which for many is so hard to understand what is happening to those who are in any way associated with those inflicted.
I explained in another post a while ago how a so called friend turned on me and some friends after we had helped him through a life problem.
My example just went to show me how clever and manipulative those with this disorder can be.
As it was explained to me, my friend knew he needed the support and he was clever enough to rally those around him to help.
Apparently if I have had known him before his personal problem then the symptoms would have been obvious and this has been revealed to me recently when I have had contact with his brothers.
In fact when we were friends one of the brothers actually told me to watch him and dont get too close.
Having the ability to recognise this disorder is an advantage in everyday life even in the happy hour group you may recognise the condition.
Fortunately in this situation it is very easy to avoid the person being the *boss* and just walk away or dont attend again.
It is much more difficult when we may come across an employer or supervisor with NPD or even more so if we have a family member who has it.
Magnarc said
01:43 PM Nov 3, 2022
Excellent post Rick. I have learned a lot from it. Surely though it would not apply to any of our members, I mean we are a well balanced group are we not?
One my schools had a sociopath and a sadist for a teacher not only was he in love with himself, he had an extreme love affair with his three canes, yep three. One was very very thin, one was slightly larger and the Prince of canes was a bloody great big one as thick as a grown man"s middle finger. Having felt the effect of all three during my time there (cos I was a cheeky brat) I can attest to the fact that the large one was the most feared of the three.
It left huge welts and bruises and rendered your hand useless for the rest of the day. I would go home and tell father about it and his usual response would be that I must have deserved it.
Back in those days there were three professions that had respect, Policemen, Teachers and the clergy. in this day and age there is no respect for them let alone anyone else.
I rest my case your honour.
RickJ said
03:26 PM Nov 3, 2022
Magnarc wrote:
Excellent post Rick. I have learned a lot from it. Surely though it would not apply to any of our members, I mean we are a well balanced group are we not?
One my schools had a sociopath and a sadist for a teacher not only was he in love with himself, he had an extreme love affair with his three canes, yep three. One was very very thin, one was slightly larger and the Prince of canes was a bloody great big one as thick as a grown man"s middle finger. Having felt the effect of all three during my time there (cos I was a cheeky brat) I can attest to the fact that the large one was the most feared of the three.
It left huge welts and bruises and rendered your hand useless for the rest of the day. I would go home and tell father about it and his usual response would be that I must have deserved it.
Back in those days there were three professions that had respect, Policemen, Teachers and the clergy. in this day and age there is no respect for them let alone anyone else.
I rest my case your honour.
The worst encounter you may ever have is when a family member has the disorder.
They become evident usually at the Xmas table where the overt ones will be providing rules and regulations to the rest of the family. This wont matter if they are a guest, they still do it,
The covert ones effect may be experienced at any time within the family group. They are the instigator of untruths whispered in stealth behind other family members backs to create secret divisions with the structure of the family. Unfortunately the ability to back stab only becomes evident when another member has trusted and confided in them
Many of those in positions of authority may have the condition.
Many subordinates rise through the ranks by being covert narcissists and telling little stories for gain. These stories are generally lies but the skilful narcissist will include a glimmer of some fact so as to make the lie believable.
Then we have the others in the community.
Unfortunately it is difficult to avoid school principals and the like if they possess the disorder.
Many other situations of an encounter can be easily avoided by just walking away. This would happen and has probably been seen by the actions of someone at a happy hour or camping ground where he or she may think they have a captive audience and control of all around them.
The biggest fear anyone with this disorder has is exposure.
When confronted and it is seen by others that their mask has fallen off they may react with extreme rage or may continue to blame others around them.
We need to remember that what ever the outcome it is never the narcissist fault and the narcissist has no empathy or sympathy for anyone even though they may pretend or put on a show of how much they care. Tears generally gain sympathy with those females who have the disorder.
Many of those with the disorder only remain an aquaintence while they have something to gain from the relationship.
My sister can tell of many stories when during a counselling the tears will gain the renewed support of the victim toward the narcissist.
As she says any resolving of a situation is difficult because any problem that arises is never ever the narcissists fault.
It is also a strange but true fact that the covert narcissist gets progressively worse as they get older as they become more skilful with their telling lies where the overt one is generally louder when young and learns to act quietly and stealthily as he or sometimes she gets older. The covert is generally more on the female side but the group can include males and the overt group can be mainly males but can include females.
A child born of narcissistic parent or parents has a very difficult childhood particularly if they arent considered as the favourite other sibling. It is common for one child to be the favourite to the detriment of the others.
A covert narcissist mother will almost always be the reason of a completely dysfunctional family. This situation can become extremely hard to manage as in many cases Mum is favoured over Dad as the primary guardian. Unfortunately in many cases the tears win over what is the real truth and problem.
To anyone who is at the mercy of someone with NPD the easiest way to cope is to eliminate all contact with that person. It is difficult when it involves family but contrary to belief, the situation will never improve.
-- Edited by RickJ on Thursday 3rd of November 2022 03:30:34 PM
dorian said
03:42 PM Nov 3, 2022
"According to DSM criteria, Donald Trump suffers from narcissistic personality disorder."
"There have been many narcissistic heads of state before but the clearest examples, such as Fidel Castro, Saddam Hussein, and Hugo Chavez, have been dictators."
Putin, Xi Jinping and "rocket man" Kim are others.
-- Edited by dorian on Thursday 3rd of November 2022 03:45:25 PM
RickJ said
03:49 PM Nov 3, 2022
dorian wrote:
"According to DSM criteria, Donald Trump suffers from narcissistic personality disorder."
"There have been many narcissistic heads of state before but the clearest examples, such as Fidel Castro, Saddam Hussein, and Hugo Chavez, have been dictators."
Putin, Xi Jinping and "rocket man" Kim are others.
-- Edited by dorian on Thursday 3rd of November 2022 03:45:25 PM
A good observation dorian
Unfortunately many politicians have the disorder
The ones that dont, dont last that long in politics.
-- Edited by RickJ on Thursday 3rd of November 2022 03:50:40 PM
Hi Forum,
My sister is a Psychologist specialising in narcissistic family members and as we have experienced first hand some influence of the destructive actions of a person with this disorder I wonder if others may have had similar and how you have dealt with the problem.
Here is what my sister gave to me to help with recognising this disorder in people in the future,
NPD
Narcissistic personality disorder one of several types of personality disorders is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.
There are many types and levels of NPD.
There are Overt Narcissists.
There are Covert Narcissists.
There are then variations of the above and the common two are Maternal and Paternal types.
Many Overt Narcissists are managers and those in control any decision is non negotiable and it is usually their way or the highway.
There is very little negotiation with an Overt Narcissist.
Covert Narcissists on the other hand will talk behind your back, triangulate friendships and family relationships while denying any input of that kind.
Generally Covert Narcissists at work appear quite efficient and successful and will put other workmates down to their supervisor or employer.
After a time the astute employer usually sees through these people.
When the Covert Narcissist leaves their employment the excuse is almost always that another employee was making it hard for them by actually doing what that very Narcissist was doing to others.
This is extremely common.
On more rare occasions the covert and overt traits can be played by the one person. This combination generally comes from those with the disorder while having a level of high intelligence.
Some of the easily identifiable traits of those with NPD are.
* Viewing themselves as greatly superior and important in comparison to others
* Lacking empathy and understanding of others perspectives
* Always having the last say
* Continually needing admiration from others
* Feeling humiliated, degraded and empty when receiving criticism
* Often preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, or brilliance
* Believing you can only be understood by other special or high-status people
* Have a sense of entitlement about the treatment you deserve
* Taking advantage of others to achieve something for yourself
* Being envious of others or believing they are envious of you
* A grandiose sense of self-importance without commensurate achievement.
* A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love.
* A belief that they are special and unique, and can only be understood by, or should be associated with, other special or high-status people or institutions.
* A requirement of excessive admiration.
* A sense of entitlement, that is, unreasonable expectations of especially favourable treatment or automatic compliance with their expectations.
* Interpersonally exploitative, that is, take advantage of others to achieve their ends.
* A lack of empathy, that is, an unwillingness or inability to recognise or identify with the feelings or needs of others.
* Envy of others, or generally a misguided belief that others are envious of them.
* A demonstration of arrogant, haughty behaviour or attitudes.
* Splitting the world into all good and all bad people are either devalued or idolised.
Very few Narcissists seek therapy themselves, as they tend to blame others for any failings they have.
If they do, the goal is to teach them to consciously think of others, and try to empathise. Therapy can help them recognise the feelings of shame underlying their grandiose dreams and plans. They can develop a more realistic and caring approach to life and relationships when they begin to accept their hidden aspects.
Without this awareness they can explode in rage, or collapse into depression as a result of the narcissistic wounding they experience from failure or criticism.
Addictions are often a way of hiding the shame underlying a narcissistic presentation.
It needs to be noted that if experiencing the wrath of anyone with NPD that by their very nature they have no compassion or empathy and if that person appears to be displaying sympathy toward you then be very aware that this will generally result in more hurt or at the minimum will be just another tool to prove themselves superior.
-- Edited by RickJ on Thursday 27th of October 2022 03:48:20 PM
I think you are correct.
I know that RickJ is correct (from experience) . A Post well worth reading and remembering.
Our son had a two year relationship with a girl that was eventually diagnosed with BPD (borderline personality disorder) in the same family as NPD.
To say those two years as stressful and traumatic is a understatement. When she was nice, she was lovely, but when she was having a episode, she was the devil.
Verbally and physically violent, cunning, manipulative and distorts the truth to suit her advantage. My wife was subject to a torrent of aggressive phone calls and texts.
She would self harm, cutting herself and burning herself with cigarettes.
Our son tried his best to get help, calling a ambulance twice, taking her to hospital one time, only to be turned away. Covid lockdowns didn't help.
Recently they seperated as it was just too much for our son, affecting his mental health.
They share a 20 month old daughter, which has complicated the issue. Currently they are co parenting with our son getting access once a fortnight, which is not enough.
How have we navigated the situation? Our son has learnt to only do hand over of their daughter in public so to minisise any chance of a outburst. The only contact they have is about their daughter.
We have no contact at all now, although the last time we arrived at our son's house, she was there but was OK.
BPD and NPD are serious mental health issues that are very hard to get a good result. Medication can help, but they usually stop taking the meds.
Our answer was too get out of the relationship.
Collo.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a terrible condition which for many is so hard to understand what is happening to those who are in any way associated with those inflicted.
I explained in another post a while ago how a so called friend turned on me and some friends after we had helped him through a life problem.
My example just went to show me how clever and manipulative those with this disorder can be.
As it was explained to me, my friend knew he needed the support and he was clever enough to rally those around him to help.
Apparently if I have had known him before his personal problem then the symptoms would have been obvious and this has been revealed to me recently when I have had contact with his brothers.
In fact when we were friends one of the brothers actually told me to watch him and dont get too close.
Having the ability to recognise this disorder is an advantage in everyday life even in the happy hour group you may recognise the condition.
Fortunately in this situation it is very easy to avoid the person being the *boss* and just walk away or dont attend again.
It is much more difficult when we may come across an employer or supervisor with NPD or even more so if we have a family member who has it.
Excellent post Rick. I have learned a lot from it. Surely though it would not apply to any of our members, I mean we are a well balanced group are we not?
One my schools had a sociopath and a sadist for a teacher not only was he in love with himself, he had an extreme love affair with his three canes, yep three. One was very very thin, one was slightly larger and the Prince of canes was a bloody great big one as thick as a grown man"s middle finger. Having felt the effect of all three during my time there (cos I was a cheeky brat) I can attest to the fact that the large one was the most feared of the three.
It left huge welts and bruises and rendered your hand useless for the rest of the day. I would go home and tell father about it and his usual response would be that I must have deserved it.
Back in those days there were three professions that had respect, Policemen, Teachers and the clergy. in this day and age there is no respect for them let alone anyone else.
I rest my case your honour.
The worst encounter you may ever have is when a family member has the disorder.
They become evident usually at the Xmas table where the overt ones will be providing rules and regulations to the rest of the family. This wont matter if they are a guest, they still do it,
The covert ones effect may be experienced at any time within the family group. They are the instigator of untruths whispered in stealth behind other family members backs to create secret divisions with the structure of the family. Unfortunately the ability to back stab only becomes evident when another member has trusted and confided in them
Many of those in positions of authority may have the condition.
Many subordinates rise through the ranks by being covert narcissists and telling little stories for gain. These stories are generally lies but the skilful narcissist will include a glimmer of some fact so as to make the lie believable.
Then we have the others in the community.
Unfortunately it is difficult to avoid school principals and the like if they possess the disorder.
Many other situations of an encounter can be easily avoided by just walking away. This would happen and has probably been seen by the actions of someone at a happy hour or camping ground where he or she may think they have a captive audience and control of all around them.
The biggest fear anyone with this disorder has is exposure.
When confronted and it is seen by others that their mask has fallen off they may react with extreme rage or may continue to blame others around them.
We need to remember that what ever the outcome it is never the narcissist fault and the narcissist has no empathy or sympathy for anyone even though they may pretend or put on a show of how much they care. Tears generally gain sympathy with those females who have the disorder.
Many of those with the disorder only remain an aquaintence while they have something to gain from the relationship.
My sister can tell of many stories when during a counselling the tears will gain the renewed support of the victim toward the narcissist.
As she says any resolving of a situation is difficult because any problem that arises is never ever the narcissists fault.
It is also a strange but true fact that the covert narcissist gets progressively worse as they get older as they become more skilful with their telling lies where the overt one is generally louder when young and learns to act quietly and stealthily as he or sometimes she gets older.
The covert is generally more on the female side but the group can include males and the overt group can be mainly males but can include females.
A child born of narcissistic parent or parents has a very difficult childhood particularly if they arent considered as the favourite other sibling. It is common for one child to be the favourite to the detriment of the others.
A covert narcissist mother will almost always be the reason of a completely dysfunctional family. This situation can become extremely hard to manage as in many cases Mum is favoured over Dad as the primary guardian. Unfortunately in many cases the tears win over what is the real truth and problem.
To anyone who is at the mercy of someone with NPD the easiest way to cope is to eliminate all contact with that person. It is difficult when it involves family but contrary to belief, the situation will never improve.
-- Edited by RickJ on Thursday 3rd of November 2022 03:30:34 PM
"According to DSM criteria, Donald Trump suffers from narcissistic personality disorder."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/201608/does-trump-suffer-narcissistic-personality-disorder
"There have been many narcissistic heads of state before but the clearest examples, such as Fidel Castro, Saddam Hussein, and Hugo Chavez, have been dictators."
Putin, Xi Jinping and "rocket man" Kim are others.
-- Edited by dorian on Thursday 3rd of November 2022 03:45:25 PM
A good observation dorian
Unfortunately many politicians have the disorder
The ones that dont, dont last that long in politics.
-- Edited by RickJ on Thursday 3rd of November 2022 03:50:40 PM