Pay Pal may fine you US$2500 if you say the "wrong" thing
Mike Harding said
08:55 AM Oct 11, 2022
It is astonishing and deeply disturbing that a company should even be entertaining such a concept: big tech and its control of large sections of the internet needs to be stamped on hard and soon:
-- Edited by Mike Harding on Tuesday 11th of October 2022 11:17:39 AM
Are We Lost said
12:52 PM Oct 11, 2022
Really disturbing. I thought the story must be fake news so looked for further references. There are many, so I have no doubt it's true. Presumably it was US specific and therefore not applicable here, but the intent is the main issue. They don't have a forum so I'm not sure what context the "misinformation" would be.
My guess is, selling a book that promoted "vaccines are bad", or "climate change is a myth" would qualify.
Paypal said it was published in error, but you can imagine how many executives and others in the legal team reviewed this before it was published. I searched and found the (now removed) offending wording that was intended to be operative from 3 November.
The bolding is mine.
You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
involve the sending, posting, or publication of any messages, content, or materials that, in PayPals sole discretion, (a) are harmful, obscene, harassing, or objectionable, (b) depict or appear to depict nudity, sexual or other intimate activities,(c) depict or promote illegal drug use, (d)depict or promoteviolence, criminal activity, cruelty,or self-harm(e) depict,promote, or incite hatred or discrimination of protected groups or of individuals or groups based on protected characteristics (e.g. race, religion, gender or gender identity, sexual orientation, etc.) (f)present a risk to user safety or wellbeing, (g) are fraudulent, promote misinformation, or are unlawful, (h) infringe the privacy, intellectual property rights, or other proprietary rights of any party, or (i)are otherwise unfit for publication.
It's already bad enough that Paypal decides if you have breached their terms. If you have a closer look at their current Australian User Agreement you can see they can already withhold funds for up to 180 days for breaching the agreement if they choose. The US agreement is more draconian.
While that may only be in the US, it seems that if the terms are breached, Paypal has the sole discretion to charge a minimum of US$2,500.
....you will be liable to PayPal for the amount of PayPals damages caused by your violation of the Acceptable Use Policy. You acknowledge and agree that $2,500.00 U.S. dollars per violation of the Acceptable Use Policy is presently a reasonable minimum estimate of PayPals actual damages
So, reading those conditions currently in force (for USA) if I sold a Cleo magazine, Paypal could determine it "appeared to depict nudity", and withhold US$2,500 of my funds. And back to the point of Mike's post, they only need to add that one word ..... "misinformation" and you could be severely penalised for selling something that Paypal alone deems is misinformation.
Another erosion in our freedom of speech.We are not far from following the US.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Tuesday 11th of October 2022 02:27:59 PM
Mike Harding said
03:00 PM Oct 11, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:
Really disturbing. I thought the story must be fake news so looked for further references. There are many, so I have no doubt it's true.
Whilst Spiked is not main-stream media it is a well established and respected news analysis and opinion site and I am confident they would not publish unless they had done due dilligence upon the veracity of a story.
Sites such as Spiked are really important because they often cover stories the main-stream media decide are too sensitve for them and thus most people never hear of such matters, it's a bit like the opposite of fake news I think, concealing some real news because it doesn't suit your agenda. I have enough respect for Spiked that I make a donation from time-to-time.
-- Edited by Mike Harding on Tuesday 11th of October 2022 03:05:36 PM
Mein said
09:25 PM Oct 11, 2022
"Unsurprisingly, PayPal walked back the insanity. The policy was published in error, it said. This was incorrect information, it insisted. PayPal is not fining people for misinformation and this language was never intended to be inserted in our policy. Were sorry for the confusion this has caused."
dorian said
08:24 AM Oct 12, 2022
Mike Harding wrote:
Whilst Spiked is not main-stream media it is a well established and respected news analysis and opinion site and I am confident they would not publish unless they had done due dilligence upon the veracity of a story.
Sites such as Spiked are really important because they often cover stories the main-stream media decide are too sensitve for them and thus most people never hear of such matters, it's a bit like the opposite of fake news I think, concealing some real news because it doesn't suit your agenda. I have enough respect for Spiked that I make a donation from time-to-time.
I lean to the left, but I have to agree that Spiked is one of the few conservative media sites that has content of any merit. That said, I disagree with them more often than not.
As for sensitive stories, I've a read a few that have woken me up.
Mike Harding said
11:33 AM Oct 12, 2022
dorian wrote:
I lean to the left, but I have to agree that Spiked is one of the few conservative media sites that has content of any merit.
I think Spiked would take issue with being labelled conservative:
And its long time editor, Brendan O'Neill, was once a Trotskyist, he currently identifies as a Marxist Libertarian. I find he and I align mostly in viewpoints so I suppose I must be one too.
To me Spiked is a beacon of hope for those of us who are passionate about the rights of the individual to be able to express his/her views without being symbolically (or perhaps literally) lynched by the mob of the mainstream who are quite certain they hold the one true viewpoint and will brook no challenge.
dorian said
11:39 AM Oct 12, 2022
Many of the most prominent members of the Australian Liberal Party (aka conservative) were once members of left wing organisations during their younger years. Then they discovered money. Therefore, I don't really pay much attention to O'Neill's leftist prehistory. In fact, the only hint of any leftist past is his current support for republicanism, albeit a very subdued support, and uncharacteristically so.
-- Edited by dorian on Wednesday 12th of October 2022 11:41:57 AM
dorian said
12:24 PM Oct 13, 2022
This scumbag said the wrong thing on the Internet, and now he's going to pay for it ... big time (I hope):
It seems to me that hosting companies would be wary of becoming entangled in such cases. They could very well become the targets of aggrieved plaintiffs.
Mike Harding said
12:53 PM Oct 13, 2022
And what good will any of it do Dorian?
The families will never see such massive sums (although the lawyers will probably do OK, don't you think Dmaxer?) and even if they did would money purge their hurt and/or their loss? The only thing it will do is to drive even deeper wedges into an already horribly divided society.
The USA is split 50/50 on social and political direction and I do not see either side having any willingness whatsoever to reduce that divide, indeed all I see is the opposite - each side trying to score points and hurt the other side in whatever way they can.
I suggest the possibility of a second American civil war and/or states seceding from the union is not impossible. On the other hand a war does have the tendency to focus people's attention on what is *really* important in life....
dorian said
12:57 PM Oct 13, 2022
Well, at least it casts some perspective on Paypal's deliberations.
Gundog said
02:53 PM Oct 13, 2022
Yesterday I posted a link to a news article about a Pay Pal incident, when I hit the submit post button a pop up apeared advising it was suspected spam and would not appear until it was reviewed.
It was not spam but I am vexed about reposting the link, because in my considered opinion it shows that Pay Pal has history in this type of event.
Rob Driver said
05:10 PM Oct 13, 2022
I use Pay Pal for paying suppliers.
I presently have no other use for their services.
I cant think how I might post an offensive post on their website.
Are you saying that Pay Pal will monitor this site and forum or are their investigations on our social media pages.
It is probably obvious that I have not bothered to read the *Spike* or other links.
I find their services to be excellent.
Are We Lost said
07:19 PM Oct 13, 2022
Rob Driver wrote:
I cant think how I might post an offensive post on their website.
From the extract I posted a couple of days ago ...
"You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
involve the sending, posting, or publication of any messages, content, or materials that, ........... promote misinformation"
To me that means they want to censor anything that they deem promotes misinformation. So if you sell a book by a Climate Change denier for example, you would be in their sights. So much for free speech.
The scary part of all this of course is that some people would say that is a good thing and such opinions should be silenced. Until it becomes censorship of what they believe in.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 13th of October 2022 07:21:48 PM
Tony LEE said
05:16 PM Oct 14, 2022
Where on earth do people get the idea that there is such a thing as free speech. There isn't.
As for the OP s news. Pretty obvious it was a bit of fun to prove that a good percentage of the population are terrifyingly gullible. Or terminally stupid.
Are We Lost said
10:00 AM Oct 15, 2022
Tony LEE wrote:
Pretty obvious it was a bit of fun to prove that a good percentage of the population are terrifyingly gullible. Or terminally stupid.
Where did you get that idea from? A bit of fun? The Paypal share price tumbled by 6% the next day and is continuing down. I can't imagine anyone at the executive level in Paypal is laughing. Or are you suggesting it was fake news?
Craig1 said
11:11 AM Oct 15, 2022
We got a 6.30am text claiming to be from paypal " here is your new security code ". wrote the number down and delete text.
It is astonishing and deeply disturbing that a company should even be entertaining such a concept: big tech and its control of large sections of the internet needs to be stamped on hard and soon:
Spiked - Pay Pal
-- Edited by Mike Harding on Tuesday 11th of October 2022 11:17:39 AM
Really disturbing. I thought the story must be fake news so looked for further references. There are many, so I have no doubt it's true. Presumably it was US specific and therefore not applicable here, but the intent is the main issue. They don't have a forum so I'm not sure what context the "misinformation" would be.
My guess is, selling a book that promoted "vaccines are bad", or "climate change is a myth" would qualify.
Paypal said it was published in error, but you can imagine how many executives and others in the legal team reviewed this before it was published. I searched and found the (now removed) offending wording that was intended to be operative from 3 November.
The bolding is mine.
You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
involve the sending, posting, or publication of any messages, content, or materials that, in PayPals sole discretion, (a) are harmful, obscene, harassing, or objectionable, (b) depict or appear to depict nudity, sexual or other intimate activities,(c) depict or promote illegal drug use, (d)depict or promoteviolence, criminal activity, cruelty,or self-harm(e) depict,promote, or incite hatred or discrimination of protected groups or of individuals or groups based on protected characteristics (e.g. race, religion, gender or gender identity, sexual orientation, etc.) (f)present a risk to user safety or wellbeing, (g) are fraudulent, promote misinformation, or are unlawful, (h) infringe the privacy, intellectual property rights, or other proprietary rights of any party, or (i)are otherwise unfit for publication.
It's already bad enough that Paypal decides if you have breached their terms. If you have a closer look at their current Australian User Agreement you can see they can already withhold funds for up to 180 days for breaching the agreement if they choose. The US agreement is more draconian.
Paypal User Agreement Extract - USA
While that may only be in the US, it seems that if the terms are breached, Paypal has the sole discretion to charge a minimum of US$2,500.
....you will be liable to PayPal for the amount of PayPals damages caused by your violation of the Acceptable Use Policy. You acknowledge and agree that $2,500.00 U.S. dollars per violation of the Acceptable Use Policy is presently a reasonable minimum estimate of PayPals actual damages
So, reading those conditions currently in force (for USA) if I sold a Cleo magazine, Paypal could determine it "appeared to depict nudity", and withhold US$2,500 of my funds. And back to the point of Mike's post, they only need to add that one word ..... "misinformation" and you could be severely penalised for selling something that Paypal alone deems is misinformation.
Another erosion in our freedom of speech. We are not far from following the US.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Tuesday 11th of October 2022 02:27:59 PM
Whilst Spiked is not main-stream media it is a well established and respected news analysis and opinion site and I am confident they would not publish unless they had done due dilligence upon the veracity of a story.
Sites such as Spiked are really important because they often cover stories the main-stream media decide are too sensitve for them and thus most people never hear of such matters, it's a bit like the opposite of fake news I think, concealing some real news because it doesn't suit your agenda. I have enough respect for Spiked that I make a donation from time-to-time.
-- Edited by Mike Harding on Tuesday 11th of October 2022 03:05:36 PM
I lean to the left, but I have to agree that Spiked is one of the few conservative media sites that has content of any merit. That said, I disagree with them more often than not.
As for sensitive stories, I've a read a few that have woken me up.
I think Spiked would take issue with being labelled conservative:
About Spiked
And its long time editor, Brendan O'Neill, was once a Trotskyist, he currently identifies as a Marxist Libertarian. I find he and I align mostly in viewpoints so I suppose I must be one too.
To me Spiked is a beacon of hope for those of us who are passionate about the rights of the individual to be able to express his/her views without being symbolically (or perhaps literally) lynched by the mob of the mainstream who are quite certain they hold the one true viewpoint and will brook no challenge.
Many of the most prominent members of the Australian Liberal Party (aka conservative) were once members of left wing organisations during their younger years. Then they discovered money. Therefore, I don't really pay much attention to O'Neill's leftist prehistory. In fact, the only hint of any leftist past is his current support for republicanism, albeit a very subdued support, and uncharacteristically so.
-- Edited by dorian on Wednesday 12th of October 2022 11:41:57 AM
This scumbag said the wrong thing on the Internet, and now he's going to pay for it ... big time (I hope):
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-13/alex-jones-ordered-to-pay-more-in-damages/101529912
It seems to me that hosting companies would be wary of becoming entangled in such cases. They could very well become the targets of aggrieved plaintiffs.
And what good will any of it do Dorian?
The families will never see such massive sums (although the lawyers will probably do OK, don't you think Dmaxer?) and even if they did would money purge their hurt and/or their loss? The only thing it will do is to drive even deeper wedges into an already horribly divided society.
The USA is split 50/50 on social and political direction and I do not see either side having any willingness whatsoever to reduce that divide, indeed all I see is the opposite - each side trying to score points and hurt the other side in whatever way they can.
I suggest the possibility of a second American civil war and/or states seceding from the union is not impossible. On the other hand a war does have the tendency to focus people's attention on what is *really* important in life....
Yesterday I posted a link to a news article about a Pay Pal incident, when I hit the submit post button a pop up apeared advising it was suspected spam and would not appear until it was reviewed.
It was not spam but I am vexed about reposting the link, because in my considered opinion it shows that Pay Pal has history in this type of event.
I presently have no other use for their services.
I cant think how I might post an offensive post on their website.
Are you saying that Pay Pal will monitor this site and forum or are their investigations on our social media pages.
It is probably obvious that I have not bothered to read the *Spike* or other links.
I find their services to be excellent.
From the extract I posted a couple of days ago ...
"You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
involve the sending, posting, or publication of any messages, content, or materials that, ........... promote misinformation"
To me that means they want to censor anything that they deem promotes misinformation. So if you sell a book by a Climate Change denier for example, you would be in their sights. So much for free speech.
The scary part of all this of course is that some people would say that is a good thing and such opinions should be silenced. Until it becomes censorship of what they believe in.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 13th of October 2022 07:21:48 PM
Where did you get that idea from? A bit of fun? The Paypal share price tumbled by 6% the next day and is continuing down. I can't imagine anyone at the executive level in Paypal is laughing. Or are you suggesting it was fake news?
This carry on is most certainly scary.