When push comes to shove it all comes down to cost.
Ivan 01 said
12:44 PM Jul 3, 2022
Comparing apples with oranges as far as a cost is concerned needs to be delayed for a little while until the govt of the day applies their fuel excise and GST percentage to electricity as is applied to other fuels.
When mistruths are involved any result can be skewed to incorrectly promote any product.
Hold onto your wallets and purses,,,,,it will come.
Gundog said
02:11 PM Jul 3, 2022
What was interesting to me was after charging the Ford, it showed a range of 282 miles and then after entering the trailer into the system it reconfigured the expected range to 160 mile. After the drive of 86 mile it had 9% battery charge remaining, this is where reality bites towing on open road cuts the range to about a third of expected city driving range.
The ford they decided to stop charging at 75% that being it took 45 minutes to charge 66%.
The 2nd youtube showed that charging stations are charging 31 cents per kWH, charging at home is a lot cheaper. In the process he had issues with charging eventually it took 59 minutes to charge the Ford to 100%.
The chart that I posted previously showed the EV was about $6 cheaper than the diesel, a futher $6 more for the hybrid, and the petrol another $5 behind. Interesting points is the diesel pays a surcharge for choosing it, the hybrid like other 2 dont get a the tax benefit that the Ford buyers get.
How does this translate to EV's in Australia, basically bugger all because there is no comparable vehicle that could tow a 2.7 tonne unladen caravan.
So what do those pushing the EV agenda realy know about their incompatibility outside the daily driver in urban areas, If single car family Mon and Dad with 2 Kids tight budget looking for and buying an EV, the MG ZS at $50,000 for the one with the bigger battery. Driving around Rockhampton its fantastic re charge every few days at home almost zero cost, then comes the fly in ointment comes the family wants to go to the Whitsundays for the weekend, Mum being the practicle one researches and plans the trip, she knows from her research that the MG's range will be more like 200km that will mean 3 recharges first at Marlbrough 2nd at Camilla and a quick top up ay Mackay for last leg to Airley Beach. That when the penny drops its not a normal 5-5.5 hour trip the unknown factor how long will these charging stops take.
Whenarewethere said
02:36 PM Jul 3, 2022
Whether it is fuel excise or coins thrown into memorials, it all goes into consolidated revenue.
No one is actually paying a tax to use a road other than tollways that are generally privatised for 30 years.
The closest is the kilometre levy on EVs which goes to the State, but even that goes into State revenue, not directly into roads.
Even then one could have the car registered at one's home address in Victoria & do most kilometres interstate, so that wouldn't help NSW.
Ivan 01 said
07:09 PM Jul 3, 2022
Whenarewethere wrote:
Whether it is fuel excise or coins thrown into memorials, it all goes into consolidated revenue.
No one is actually paying a tax to use a road other than tollways that are generally privatised for 30 years.
The closest is the kilometre levy on EVs which goes to the State, but even that goes into State revenue, not directly into roads.
Even then one could have the car registered at one's home address in Victoria & do most kilometres interstate, so that wouldn't help NSW.
It appears you havent put much thought into that post.
All revenue goes toward running the country or the state including building and the maintenance of roads.
It appears we are now replacing the use of fossil fuels which are taxed to help with this building and maintenance, to electricity which is not taxed YET.
That will cause a shortfall or a deficit in revenue.
But take a firm hold, it will be taxed.
Whenarewethere said
09:36 PM Jul 3, 2022
There are people in our building including young families who don't own cars & their council rates go partially to pay for all the local roads.
A bit more thought would enlighten one.
Hitting the road said
09:04 AM Jul 4, 2022
IMO this whole EV fizz is going to come crashing down very soon...especially in this country where a vocal minority are hell bent on doing away with fossil fuel generation as soon as possible, causing electricity prices to soar to previously unimaginable levels.
I'd say too that none of these misled kids that are blocking roads and wreaking havoc generally, would be able to afford an EV let alone charge the battery!
The "average" family is not into "virtue signalling" to their neighbours, they are always going to look for the most affordable transport as they struggle with increasing mortgage payments, increasing school fees, increasing food and clothing costs...while wages remain relatively stagnant.
To fork out $50k for a small hatchback with a limited range and very small cargo capacity has zero appeal to any growing family...they'll opt for the $30k s/h SUV that can fit all the kids along their sports stuff in as well as take the family on worry free trips and holidays.
Once the you beaut EV reaches the s/h market it'll likely be looking for a new battery anyway at likely the cost of the car...
I'm all for assisting where ever I can too to reduce pollution and helping the environment...I do that by reducing wastage and cutting my use of plastics and home electricity usage. An EV does nothing for the environment as the pollution produced and the environmental destruction just to manufacture them is massive...they also only move the pollution from the local area back to the power station where ever that is where the electricity is actually generated in the first place. as has been said, EV's really run on coal and gas anyway...
-- Edited by Hitting the road on Monday 4th of July 2022 09:05:20 AM
-- Edited by Hitting the road on Monday 4th of July 2022 09:07:30 AM
yobarr said
10:31 AM Jul 4, 2022
Hitting the road wrote:
IMO this whole EV fizz is going to come crashing down very soon...especially in this country where a vocal minority are hell bent on doing away with fossil fuel generation as soon as possible, causing electricity prices to soar to previously unimaginable levels.
I'd say too that none of these misled kids that are blocking roads and wreaking havoc generally, would be able to afford an EV let alone charge the battery!
The "average" family is not into "virtue signalling" to their neighbours, they are always going to look for the most affordable transport as they struggle with increasing mortgage payments, increasing school fees, increasing food and clothing costs...while wages remain relatively stagnant.
To fork out $50k for a small hatchback with a limited range and very small cargo capacity has zero appeal to any growing family...they'll opt for the $30k s/h SUV that can fit all the kids along their sports stuff in as well as take the family on worry free trips and holidays.
Once the you beaut EV reaches the s/h market it'll likely be looking for a new battery anyway at likely the cost of the car...
I'm all for assisting where ever I can too to reduce pollution and helping the environment...I do that by reducing wastage and cutting my use of plastics and home electricity usage. An EV does nothing for the environment as the pollution produced and the environmental destruction just to manufacture them is massive...they also only move the pollution from the local area back to the power station where ever that is where the electricity is actually generated in the first place. as has been said, EV's really run on coal and gas anyway...
Great post Dean, with lots of common-sense advice and details provided, but probably beyond the comprehension and reasoning skills of many. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 4th of July 2022 10:32:33 AM
Are We Lost said
10:41 AM Jul 4, 2022
Just following on from Hitting the road's post, the resale value of electric cars is likely to drop like a stone.
We are being told that the current stream of EV coming onto the market are like the model T Ford, and that future evolution will make substantial improvements and become cheaper. So, in several years when the next substantial leap in technology has arrived, who would want one of the old technology, particularly when a major battery replacement cost is imminent.
Whatever path you choose, with rising fuel prices and expensive EV ownership costs, motoring is going to be a lot more expensive.
Hitting the road said
11:36 AM Jul 4, 2022
...and at this point those discarded EV batteries are not recyclable...so they all end up in land fill alongside the massive out of date wind generator turbine blades and other "renewable" energy producers that are not recyclable, and creating more in ground pollution than any new generation coal and gas generator ever will....
The only winner from this unsustainable silly EV craze is Elon Musk...leave the batteries to the golf carts...
Hitting the road said
10:47 AM Jul 5, 2022
Watching and reading news reports recently...given the soaring electricity prices thanks to the push by some Political Parties to spend millions of dollars of tax payer's money on so called "renewables". It appears the reality is finally dawning on them, as well as the media and the EV fraternity. With some luck the long suffering public will begin to oppose this stupidity.
While we are closing down power stations with no plans to replace the means of generating base load power, the penny is finally dropping that while we are to the point of being unable to even keep the lights on...how the hell are we going to charge up thousands of electric cars every day!
There are a growing number of every day people that cannot afford to pay their electricity bill, I see some are just turning off the main switch at the fuse box.
There has to be a shift away from this inane stupidity of cutting off our own nose to spite our faces. While China spits out enough pollution in 16 days to what Australia does in a year... why the panic and stupidity? To even totally get rid of the 1% of emissions Australia contributes each year to the world output, it will make zero difference to anything...Then one decent Volcano eruption and the CO2 released would dwarf what Australia produces in a year...please end this stupidity!
Clarky 1 said
11:18 AM Jul 5, 2022
Hitting the road wrote:
Watching and reading news reports recently...given the soaring electricity prices thanks to the push by some Political Parties to spend millions of dollars of tax payer's money on so called "renewables". It appears the reality is finally dawning on them, as well as the media and the EV fraternity. With some luck the long suffering public will begin to oppose this stupidity.
While we are closing down power stations with no plans to replace the means of generating base load power, the penny is finally dropping that while we are to the point of being unable to even keep the lights on...how the hell are we going to charge up thousands of electric cars every day!
There are a growing number of every day people that cannot afford to pay their electricity bill, I see some are just turning off the main switch at the fuse box.
There has to be a shift away from this inane stupidity of cutting off our own nose to spite our faces. While China spits out enough pollution in 16 days to what Australia does in a year... why the panic and stupidity? To even totally get rid of the 1% of emissions Australia contributes each year to the world output, it will make zero difference to anything...Then one decent Volcano eruption and the CO2 released would dwarf what Australia produces in a year...please end this stupidity!
A great post.
Unfortunately they will blame the hardship that everyone will be in on something new.
I cant wait for the next tin hat proposal to raise its ugly head.
jontee said
11:27 AM Jul 5, 2022
Clarky 1 wrote:
Hitting the road wrote:
Watching and reading news reports recently...given the soaring electricity prices thanks to the push by some Political Parties to spend millions of dollars of tax payer's money on so called "renewables". It appears the reality is finally dawning on them, as well as the media and the EV fraternity. With some luck the long suffering public will begin to oppose this stupidity.
While we are closing down power stations with no plans to replace the means of generating base load power, the penny is finally dropping that while we are to the point of being unable to even keep the lights on...how the hell are we going to charge up thousands of electric cars every day!
There are a growing number of every day people that cannot afford to pay their electricity bill, I see some are just turning off the main switch at the fuse box.
There has to be a shift away from this inane stupidity of cutting off our own nose to spite our faces. While China spits out enough pollution in 16 days to what Australia does in a year... why the panic and stupidity? To even totally get rid of the 1% of emissions Australia contributes each year to the world output, it will make zero difference to anything...Then one decent Volcano eruption and the CO2 released would dwarf what Australia produces in a year...please end this stupidity!
A great post.
Unfortunately they will blame the hardship that everyone will be in on something new.
I cant wait for the next tin hat proposal to raise its ugly head.
X3 .
Jontee
yobarr said
01:53 PM Jul 5, 2022
Hitting the road wrote:
Watching and reading news reports recently...given the soaring electricity prices thanks to the push by some Political Parties to spend millions of dollars of tax payer's money on so called "renewables". It appears the reality is finally dawning on them, as well as the media and the EV fraternity. With some luck the long suffering public will begin to oppose this stupidity.
While we are closing down power stations with no plans to replace the means of generating base load power, the penny is finally dropping that while we are to the point of being unable to even keep the lights on...how the hell are we going to charge up thousands of electric cars every day!
There are a growing number of every day people that cannot afford to pay their electricity bill, I see some are just turning off the main switch at the fuse box.
There has to be a shift away from this inane stupidity of cutting off our own nose to spite our faces. While China spits out enough pollution in 16 days to what Australia does in a year... why the panic and stupidity? To even totally get rid of the 1% of emissions Australia contributes each year to the world output, it will make zero difference to anything...Then one decent Volcano eruption and the CO2 released would dwarf what Australia produces in a year...please end this stupidity!
Great post Dean, but probably a bit too much common sense and logic for the "Climate change" loonies to comprehend. Cheers
Cassie63 said
09:40 AM Jul 6, 2022
As already mentioned wed better start looking for more landfill sites to dispose of the out of date solar panels and wind turbine blades by the millions. No one is going to spend $10 to recycle a solar panel to only get $1 back.
Ivan 01 said
09:52 AM Jul 6, 2022
Cassie63 wrote:
As already mentioned wed better start looking for more landfill sites to dispose of the out of date solar panels and wind turbine blades by the millions. No one is going to spend $10 to recycle a solar panel to only get $1 back.
Most of the noisy ones who think that they are clean and green while sitting home with the heater on have little to no experience in economics or even in real life.
Yes Cassie63 it will be a really big non green hole in the ground.
I wonder will we be hiding that behind false statements from respective governments.
I wonder if in the future that these enormous holes containing renewable waste will feature on a News Report every time the story is about being green.
You know, like they show the chimney of a power station emitting steam from the cooling water used in power production.
Note to the greenies, what you see is steam, that is water condensing from a gas back to,,,,, water.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 6th of July 2022 09:55:59 AM
Nevd said
02:42 PM Jul 6, 2022
What seems to me to be a yet to be recognised issue is the amount of real estate that will be needed for all the chargers. There's some talk of the charging infrastructure to be set up in service stations - ie as electric car numbers increase, some bowsers will be replaced by charging stations. But, if it takes an hour to charge a car vs 5 minutes to refuel, where are all the extra spaces going to come from? You may say shopping centres, or workplaces, but who pays for that? Sure, you will be charged to recharge, but will the initial cost of the space (ie real estate) and equipment be amortised by all vehicle users?
My main concern would be when travelling (which most of us here do a lot of). Refuelling at a large rural city or town on my way somewhere - I pull up to a servo where half the space are dedicated to charging stations. It's school holidays, and there's already a queue. How long do I have to wait? 2 or 3 hours? I've recently read road trip reports where planned recharging stops weren't viable because of full or broken recharging stations along the way.
I think of our own travels - We regularly drive from Hervey Bay to Mackay in a day. Stop at Rockhampton for a quick bite and pit stop. So if driving an electric vehicle, it would already take significantly longer, providing we could roll up to a readily available charger. Would be a lot worse if we had to wait for one to become available.
There is now talk of in road charging that will keep charging as you drive. Until something like that happens, electric powered vehicles won't be truly viable in Australia unless used mostly in cities. And it would cost megabillions to do it.
Let's not talk about the viability of towing just yet! Maybe more emphasis should be directed towards hydrogen as fuel, even with the inherent engineering issues.
Ivan 01 said
03:03 PM Jul 6, 2022
Nevd wrote:
What seems to me to be a yet to be recognised issue is the amount of real estate that will be needed for all the chargers. There's some talk of the charging infrastructure to be set up in service stations - ie as electric car numbers increase, some bowsers will be replaced by charging stations. But, if it takes an hour to charge a car vs 5 minutes to refuel, where are all the extra spaces going to come from? You may say shopping centres, or workplaces, but who pays for that? Sure, you will be charged to recharge, but will the initial cost of the space (ie real estate) and equipment be amortised by all vehicle users?
My main concern would be when travelling (which most of us here do a lot of). Refuelling at a large rural city or town on my way somewhere - I pull up to a servo where half the space are dedicated to charging stations. It's school holidays, and there's already a queue. How long do I have to wait? 2 or 3 hours? I've recently read road trip reports where planned recharging stops weren't viable because of full or broken recharging stations along the way.
I think of our own travels - We regularly drive from Hervey Bay to Mackay in a day. Stop at Rockhampton for a quick bite and pit stop. So if driving an electric vehicle, it would already take significantly longer, providing we could roll up to a readily available charger. Would be a lot worse if we had to wait for one to become available.
There is now talk of in road charging that will keep charging as you drive. Until something like that happens, electric powered vehicles won't be truly viable in Australia unless used mostly in cities. And it would cost megabillions to do it.
Let's not talk about the viability of towing just yet! Maybe more emphasis should be directed towards hydrogen as fuel, even with the inherent engineering issues.
A great post Nevd,
Facts are frightening when all this is being forced on us while those in control are obviously lacking the foresight to recharge these EVs.in any number above one.
Gundog said
03:11 PM Jul 6, 2022
Nevd wrote:
What seems to me to be a yet to be recognised issue is the amount of real estate that will be needed for all the chargers. There's some talk of the charging infrastructure to be set up in service stations - ie as electric car numbers increase, some bowsers will be replaced by charging stations. But, if it takes an hour to charge a car vs 5 minutes to refuel, where are all the extra spaces going to come from? You may say shopping centres, or workplaces, but who pays for that? Sure, you will be charged to recharge, but will the initial cost of the space (ie real estate) and equipment be amortised by all vehicle users?
My main concern would be when travelling (which most of us here do a lot of). Refuelling at a large rural city or town on my way somewhere - I pull up to a servo where half the space are dedicated to charging stations. It's school holidays, and there's already a queue. How long do I have to wait? 2 or 3 hours? I've recently read road trip reports where planned recharging stops weren't viable because of full or broken recharging stations along the way.
I think of our own travels - We regularly drive from Hervey Bay to Mackay in a day. Stop at Rockhampton for a quick bite and pit stop. So if driving an electric vehicle, it would already take significantly longer, providing we could roll up to a readily available charger. Would be a lot worse if we had to wait for one to become available.
There is now talk of in road charging that will keep charging as you drive. Until something like that happens, electric powered vehicles won't be truly viable in Australia unless used mostly in cities. And it would cost megabillions to do it.
Let's not talk about the viability of towing just yet! Maybe more emphasis should be directed towards hydrogen as fuel, even with the inherent engineering issues.
Not having a dig mate, Hydrogen biggest issue its like petrol the supply chain in it distribution along with the infrastructure cost,who bears that cost. Safety wise it won't be self serve like fossil fuel, therefore you will need driveway attendants, in comprehensive safety equipment.
Its a bit like EV charging point that get the electricity from diesel generators in little towns like Mala, no wind or solar farm out there.
Ivan 01 said
05:07 PM Jul 6, 2022
Gundog wrote:
Nevd wrote:
What seems to me to be a yet to be recognised issue is the amount of real estate that will be needed for all the chargers. There's some talk of the charging infrastructure to be set up in service stations - ie as electric car numbers increase, some bowsers will be replaced by charging stations. But, if it takes an hour to charge a car vs 5 minutes to refuel, where are all the extra spaces going to come from? You may say shopping centres, or workplaces, but who pays for that? Sure, you will be charged to recharge, but will the initial cost of the space (ie real estate) and equipment be amortised by all vehicle users?
My main concern would be when travelling (which most of us here do a lot of). Refuelling at a large rural city or town on my way somewhere - I pull up to a servo where half the space are dedicated to charging stations. It's school holidays, and there's already a queue. How long do I have to wait? 2 or 3 hours? I've recently read road trip reports where planned recharging stops weren't viable because of full or broken recharging stations along the way.
I think of our own travels - We regularly drive from Hervey Bay to Mackay in a day. Stop at Rockhampton for a quick bite and pit stop. So if driving an electric vehicle, it would already take significantly longer, providing we could roll up to a readily available charger. Would be a lot worse if we had to wait for one to become available.
There is now talk of in road charging that will keep charging as you drive. Until something like that happens, electric powered vehicles won't be truly viable in Australia unless used mostly in cities. And it would cost megabillions to do it.
Let's not talk about the viability of towing just yet! Maybe more emphasis should be directed towards hydrogen as fuel, even with the inherent engineering issues.
Not having a dig mate, Hydrogen biggest issue its like petrol the supply chain in it distribution along with the infrastructure cost,who bears that cost. Safety wise it won't be self serve like fossil fuel, therefore you will need driveway attendants, in comprehensive safety equipment.
Its a bit like EV charging point that get the electricity from diesel generators in little towns like Mala, no wind or solar farm out there.
Hydrogen seems to be the hidden back up solution when the electricity doesnt work.
No thought has gone into regional Australia. At the moment it appears to be left up to private companies to install and operate hydrogen plants for their own vehicles and machinery.
It will be a long time before a bloke can go out and by a hydrogen truck and start carting interstate.
It may even herald the demise of the private operator and without those privateers we will just watch transport costs skyrocket in this country.
Now before I am called a naysayer without any support, to those that want to go down this path please explain politely how this will not happen in their opinion before this topic is locked or removed.
Clarky 1 said
05:20 PM Jul 6, 2022
Ivan 01 wrote:
Gundog wrote:
Nevd wrote:
What seems to me to be a yet to be recognised issue is the amount of real estate that will be needed for all the chargers. There's some talk of the charging infrastructure to be set up in service stations - ie as electric car numbers increase, some bowsers will be replaced by charging stations. But, if it takes an hour to charge a car vs 5 minutes to refuel, where are all the extra spaces going to come from? You may say shopping centres, or workplaces, but who pays for that? Sure, you will be charged to recharge, but will the initial cost of the space (ie real estate) and equipment be amortised by all vehicle users?
My main concern would be when travelling (which most of us here do a lot of). Refuelling at a large rural city or town on my way somewhere - I pull up to a servo where half the space are dedicated to charging stations. It's school holidays, and there's already a queue. How long do I have to wait? 2 or 3 hours? I've recently read road trip reports where planned recharging stops weren't viable because of full or broken recharging stations along the way.
I think of our own travels - We regularly drive from Hervey Bay to Mackay in a day. Stop at Rockhampton for a quick bite and pit stop. So if driving an electric vehicle, it would already take significantly longer, providing we could roll up to a readily available charger. Would be a lot worse if we had to wait for one to become available.
There is now talk of in road charging that will keep charging as you drive. Until something like that happens, electric powered vehicles won't be truly viable in Australia unless used mostly in cities. And it would cost megabillions to do it.
Let's not talk about the viability of towing just yet! Maybe more emphasis should be directed towards hydrogen as fuel, even with the inherent engineering issues.
Not having a dig mate, Hydrogen biggest issue its like petrol the supply chain in it distribution along with the infrastructure cost,who bears that cost. Safety wise it won't be self serve like fossil fuel, therefore you will need driveway attendants, in comprehensive safety equipment.
Its a bit like EV charging point that get the electricity from diesel generators in little towns like Mala, no wind or solar farm out there.
Hydrogen seems to be the hidden back up solution when the electricity doesnt work.
No thought has gone into regional Australia. At the moment it appears to be left up to private companies to install and operate hydrogen plants for their own vehicles and machinery.
It will be a long time before a bloke can go out and by a hydrogen truck and start carting interstate.
It may even herald the demise of the private operator and without those privateers we will just watch transport costs skyrocket in this country.
Now before I am called a naysayer without any support, to those that want to go down this path please explain politely how this will not happen in their opinion before this topic is locked or removed.
A great observation Ivan.
It should promote good conversation until the globe makes his entrance then out will come the padlock or the really big broom.
The trucking industry operates on a fine edge as far as operating costs are concerned and a penalty on fuel to certain small operators may be disasterous to those small guys while at the same time giving the big boys the keys to the bank.
Lets hope diesel is around for a long by time yet.
Australia will not afford to have huge increases in transport costs.
We were all on here bitching and moaning about the cost of lettuce just recently.
Well maybe it is time to start growing at home and getting used to enormous costs to other commodities.
Those with the access to new fuel technology will be in control.
It may be like a modern day Mad Max.
Aus-Kiwi said
03:28 PM Jul 8, 2022
Depends how you consider your time standing around while EV is being charged ? So take or add $35 (??) and hour to that for standing by for each occupant ! Im sure employers would be happy to pay while you waited ?
deverall11 said
10:34 AM Jul 9, 2022
Maybe we should rename this forum 'All Things Negative'.
You may all post all the negatives about the future.
Unfortunately for you, you are in the minority- last fed elections are
a testament to where the people of Australia want to go.
Not the same place old relics with dinosaur thinking is.
As I have mentioned before, if you all were 100 years younger,
you would've had the same negative views/comments when the
ICE was invented and was about to replace the steam engine.
Perhaps this is where the future is for some of you - steam engines.
Luckily you have no impact on the decision making, just hot air.
40 years ago, my first job working in a bank which had a computer
the side of a single garage, A/C the same to keep it cool.
My current phone has over 10 times (conservative estimate) the computing
power and fits in my pocket.
Do you lot think this would've happened if the people in charge of
developing the technology had the same negative attitude you lot have.
We would still be carrying around a suitcase for the battery and a brick
for a phone to go with it.
Bet you all enjoy being able to carry you phone in your pocket and
not have to carry a suitcase just to make/receive a phone call.
The subject at hand is the same principle. The technology is still
relatively young. Give it a chance. Stop knocking it, unless it is a
'feel good' thing for you and makes you think you are empowered.
Ivan 01 said
11:10 AM Jul 9, 2022
deverall11 wrote:
Maybe we should rename this forum 'All Things Negative'. You may all post all the negatives about the future. Unfortunately for you, you are in the minority- last fed elections are a testament to where the people of Australia want to go. Not the same place old relics with dinosaur thinking is.
As I have mentioned before, if you all were 100 years younger, you would've had the same negative views/comments when the ICE was invented and was about to replace the steam engine. Perhaps this is where the future is for some of you - steam engines. Luckily you have no impact on the decision making, just hot air.
40 years ago, my first job working in a bank which had a computer the side of a single garage, A/C the same to keep it cool. My current phone has over 10 times (conservative estimate) the computing power and fits in my pocket.
Do you lot think this would've happened if the people in charge of developing the technology had the same negative attitude you lot have. We would still be carrying around a suitcase for the battery and a brick for a phone to go with it. Bet you all enjoy being able to carry you phone in your pocket and not have to carry a suitcase just to make/receive a phone call.
The subject at hand is the same principle. The technology is still relatively young. Give it a chance. Stop knocking it, unless it is a 'feel good' thing for you and makes you think you are empowered.
I dont think anyone on here is against the development of new technology
What some are stating is that parts of this new technology is being forced on us by those who have not done adequate research into how this will actually work in real life as opposed to a zealots expectation that we will save the world when the rest of the industrial world has little intention to change what they are doing.
Claims of some technology is Green is just not true.
We dont have to go into all of that again.
Gundog said
11:18 AM Jul 9, 2022
deverall11 wrote:
Maybe we should rename this forum 'All Things Negative'.............................. Give it a chance. Stop knocking it, unless it is a 'feel good' thing for you and makes you think you are empowered.
In some ways your point is correct, however in a lot of ways you are just kicking the voice of reason.
I support the EV concept, but the agenda is being driven by citycentric people with little regard how do we make this work in regional, rural and outback Australia.
The rush is to get cars on the road before the infastructure is built, I read somewhere yesterday and I ment to bookmark it, dealers are having supply issues with the FORD F150 Lightning demand is out stripping supply, the waiting list is up to 5 years, with as little as 1-2 units a being deliverd.
AS far as Hydogen I see it as a slow rollout to rural areas, about 8-9 years ago Kenworth were planning to release an LNG power truck, the sevice station I ran was one of a small number that was to have LNG pumps, the roll out was planned to service the east coast transport run, Melb-Syd-Bris, that had later plans to only setup in major inter city routes.
At a guess I would see Hydogen replicating that idea in the first instance.
Vast countries like us, will have a slow take up of EV's, comparing us the Europe they are nothing like us.
Gundog said
11:31 AM Jul 9, 2022
Heres a comparison test from Aust
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnXH2lqW4Hg
jegog said
02:28 PM Jul 9, 2022
Hitting the road wrote:
Watching and reading news reports recently...given the soaring electricity prices thanks to the push by some Political Parties to spend millions of dollars of tax payer's money on so called "renewables". It appears the reality is finally dawning on them, as well as the media and the EV fraternity. With some luck the long suffering public will begin to oppose this stupidity.
While we are closing down power stations with no plans to replace the means of generating base load power, the penny is finally dropping that while we are to the point of being unable to even keep the lights on...how the hell are we going to charge up thousands of electric cars every day!
There are a growing number of every day people that cannot afford to pay their electricity bill, I see some are just turning off the main switch at the fuse box.
There has to be a shift away from this inane stupidity of cutting off our own nose to spite our faces. While China spits out enough pollution in 16 days to what Australia does in a year... why the panic and stupidity? To even totally get rid of the 1% of emissions Australia contributes each year to the world output, it will make zero difference to anything...Then one decent Volcano eruption and the CO2 released would dwarf what Australia produces in a year...please end this stupidity!
This very interesting and lets hope petrol/diesel stays around for a long time
https://youtu.be/-e55Vued028
Check this one out also
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V3IRRoqgrvA
-- Edited by Gundog on Sunday 3rd of July 2022 11:04:57 AM
Comparing apples with oranges as far as a cost is concerned needs to be delayed for a little while until the govt of the day applies their fuel excise and GST percentage to electricity as is applied to other fuels.
When mistruths are involved any result can be skewed to incorrectly promote any product.
Hold onto your wallets and purses,,,,,it will come.
What was interesting to me was after charging the Ford, it showed a range of 282 miles and then after entering the trailer into the system it reconfigured the expected range to 160 mile. After the drive of 86 mile it had 9% battery charge remaining, this is where reality bites towing on open road cuts the range to about a third of expected city driving range.
The ford they decided to stop charging at 75% that being it took 45 minutes to charge 66%.
The 2nd youtube showed that charging stations are charging 31 cents per kWH, charging at home is a lot cheaper. In the process he had issues with charging eventually it took 59 minutes to charge the Ford to 100%.
The chart that I posted previously showed the EV was about $6 cheaper than the diesel, a futher $6 more for the hybrid, and the petrol another $5 behind. Interesting points is the diesel pays a surcharge for choosing it, the hybrid like other 2 dont get a the tax benefit that the Ford buyers get.
How does this translate to EV's in Australia, basically bugger all because there is no comparable vehicle that could tow a 2.7 tonne unladen caravan.
So what do those pushing the EV agenda realy know about their incompatibility outside the daily driver in urban areas, If single car family Mon and Dad with 2 Kids tight budget looking for and buying an EV, the MG ZS at $50,000 for the one with the bigger battery. Driving around Rockhampton its fantastic re charge every few days at home almost zero cost, then comes the fly in ointment comes the family wants to go to the Whitsundays for the weekend, Mum being the practicle one researches and plans the trip, she knows from her research that the MG's range will be more like 200km that will mean 3 recharges first at Marlbrough 2nd at Camilla and a quick top up ay Mackay for last leg to Airley Beach. That when the penny drops its not a normal 5-5.5 hour trip the unknown factor how long will these charging stops take.
Whether it is fuel excise or coins thrown into memorials, it all goes into consolidated revenue.
No one is actually paying a tax to use a road other than tollways that are generally privatised for 30 years.
The closest is the kilometre levy on EVs which goes to the State, but even that goes into State revenue, not directly into roads.
Even then one could have the car registered at one's home address in Victoria & do most kilometres interstate, so that wouldn't help NSW.
It appears you havent put much thought into that post.
All revenue goes toward running the country or the state including building and the maintenance of roads.
It appears we are now replacing the use of fossil fuels which are taxed to help with this building and maintenance, to electricity which is not taxed YET.
That will cause a shortfall or a deficit in revenue.
But take a firm hold, it will be taxed.
There are people in our building including young families who don't own cars & their council rates go partially to pay for all the local roads.
A bit more thought would enlighten one.
IMO this whole EV fizz is going to come crashing down very soon...especially in this country where a vocal minority are hell bent on doing away with fossil fuel generation as soon as possible, causing electricity prices to soar to previously unimaginable levels.
I'd say too that none of these misled kids that are blocking roads and wreaking havoc generally, would be able to afford an EV let alone charge the battery!
The "average" family is not into "virtue signalling" to their neighbours, they are always going to look for the most affordable transport as they struggle with increasing mortgage payments, increasing school fees, increasing food and clothing costs...while wages remain relatively stagnant.
To fork out $50k for a small hatchback with a limited range and very small cargo capacity has zero appeal to any growing family...they'll opt for the $30k s/h SUV that can fit all the kids along their sports stuff in as well as take the family on worry free trips and holidays.
Once the you beaut EV reaches the s/h market it'll likely be looking for a new battery anyway at likely the cost of the car...
I'm all for assisting where ever I can too to reduce pollution and helping the environment...I do that by reducing wastage and cutting my use of plastics and home electricity usage.
An EV does nothing for the environment as the pollution produced and the environmental destruction just to manufacture them is massive...they also only move the pollution from the local area back to the power station where ever that is where the electricity is actually generated in the first place. as has been said, EV's really run on coal and gas anyway...
-- Edited by Hitting the road on Monday 4th of July 2022 09:05:20 AM
-- Edited by Hitting the road on Monday 4th of July 2022 09:07:30 AM
Great post Dean, with lots of common-sense advice and details provided, but probably beyond the comprehension and reasoning skills of many. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 4th of July 2022 10:32:33 AM
We are being told that the current stream of EV coming onto the market are like the model T Ford, and that future evolution will make substantial improvements and become cheaper. So, in several years when the next substantial leap in technology has arrived, who would want one of the old technology, particularly when a major battery replacement cost is imminent.
Whatever path you choose, with rising fuel prices and expensive EV ownership costs, motoring is going to be a lot more expensive.
...and at this point those discarded EV batteries are not recyclable...so they all end up in land fill alongside the massive out of date wind generator turbine blades and other "renewable" energy producers that are not recyclable, and creating more in ground pollution than any new generation coal and gas generator ever will....
The only winner from this unsustainable silly EV craze is Elon Musk...leave the batteries to the golf carts...
While we are closing down power stations with no plans to replace the means of generating base load power, the penny is finally dropping that while we are to the point of being unable to even keep the lights on...how the hell are we going to charge up thousands of electric cars every day!
There are a growing number of every day people that cannot afford to pay their electricity bill, I see some are just turning off the main switch at the fuse box.
There has to be a shift away from this inane stupidity of cutting off our own nose to spite our faces. While China spits out enough pollution in 16 days to what Australia does in a year... why the panic and stupidity? To even totally get rid of the 1% of emissions Australia contributes each year to the world output, it will make zero difference to anything...Then one decent Volcano eruption and the CO2 released would dwarf what Australia produces in a year...please end this stupidity!
A great post.
Unfortunately they will blame the hardship that everyone will be in on something new.
I cant wait for the next tin hat proposal to raise its ugly head.
X3 .
Jontee
Great post Dean, but probably a bit too much common sense and logic for the "Climate change" loonies to comprehend. Cheers
Most of the noisy ones who think that they are clean and green while sitting home with the heater on have little to no experience in economics or even in real life.
Yes Cassie63 it will be a really big non green hole in the ground.
I wonder will we be hiding that behind false statements from respective governments.
I wonder if in the future that these enormous holes containing renewable waste will feature on a News Report every time the story is about being green.
You know, like they show the chimney of a power station emitting steam from the cooling water used in power production.
Note to the greenies, what you see is steam, that is water condensing from a gas back to,,,,, water.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 6th of July 2022 09:55:59 AM
My main concern would be when travelling (which most of us here do a lot of). Refuelling at a large rural city or town on my way somewhere - I pull up to a servo where half the space are dedicated to charging stations. It's school holidays, and there's already a queue. How long do I have to wait? 2 or 3 hours? I've recently read road trip reports where planned recharging stops weren't viable because of full or broken recharging stations along the way.
I think of our own travels - We regularly drive from Hervey Bay to Mackay in a day. Stop at Rockhampton for a quick bite and pit stop. So if driving an electric vehicle, it would already take significantly longer, providing we could roll up to a readily available charger. Would be a lot worse if we had to wait for one to become available.
There is now talk of in road charging that will keep charging as you drive. Until something like that happens, electric powered vehicles won't be truly viable in Australia unless used mostly in cities. And it would cost megabillions to do it.
Let's not talk about the viability of towing just yet! Maybe more emphasis should be directed towards hydrogen as fuel, even with the inherent engineering issues.
A great post Nevd,
Facts are frightening when all this is being forced on us while those in control are obviously lacking the foresight to recharge these EVs.in any number above one.
Not having a dig mate, Hydrogen biggest issue its like petrol the supply chain in it distribution along with the infrastructure cost,who bears that cost. Safety wise it won't be self serve like fossil fuel, therefore you will need driveway attendants, in comprehensive safety equipment.
Its a bit like EV charging point that get the electricity from diesel generators in little towns like Mala, no wind or solar farm out there.
Hydrogen seems to be the hidden back up solution when the electricity doesnt work.
No thought has gone into regional Australia. At the moment it appears to be left up to private companies to install and operate hydrogen plants for their own vehicles and machinery.
It will be a long time before a bloke can go out and by a hydrogen truck and start carting interstate.
It may even herald the demise of the private operator and without those privateers we will just watch transport costs skyrocket in this country.
Now before I am called a naysayer without any support, to those that want to go down this path please explain politely how this will not happen in their opinion before this topic is locked or removed.
A great observation Ivan.
It should promote good conversation until the globe makes his entrance then out will come the padlock or the really big broom.
The trucking industry operates on a fine edge as far as operating costs are concerned and a penalty on fuel to certain small operators may be disasterous to those small guys while at the same time giving the big boys the keys to the bank.
Lets hope diesel is around for a long by time yet.
Australia will not afford to have huge increases in transport costs.
We were all on here bitching and moaning about the cost of lettuce just recently.
Well maybe it is time to start growing at home and getting used to enormous costs to other commodities.
Those with the access to new fuel technology will be in control.
It may be like a modern day Mad Max.
You may all post all the negatives about the future.
Unfortunately for you, you are in the minority- last fed elections are
a testament to where the people of Australia want to go.
Not the same place old relics with dinosaur thinking is.
As I have mentioned before, if you all were 100 years younger,
you would've had the same negative views/comments when the
ICE was invented and was about to replace the steam engine.
Perhaps this is where the future is for some of you - steam engines.
Luckily you have no impact on the decision making, just hot air.
40 years ago, my first job working in a bank which had a computer
the side of a single garage, A/C the same to keep it cool.
My current phone has over 10 times (conservative estimate) the computing
power and fits in my pocket.
Do you lot think this would've happened if the people in charge of
developing the technology had the same negative attitude you lot have.
We would still be carrying around a suitcase for the battery and a brick
for a phone to go with it.
Bet you all enjoy being able to carry you phone in your pocket and
not have to carry a suitcase just to make/receive a phone call.
The subject at hand is the same principle. The technology is still
relatively young. Give it a chance. Stop knocking it, unless it is a
'feel good' thing for you and makes you think you are empowered.
I dont think anyone on here is against the development of new technology
What some are stating is that parts of this new technology is being forced on us by those who have not done adequate research into how this will actually work in real life as opposed to a zealots expectation that we will save the world when the rest of the industrial world has little intention to change what they are doing.
Claims of some technology is Green is just not true.
We dont have to go into all of that again.
In some ways your point is correct, however in a lot of ways you are just kicking the voice of reason.
I support the EV concept, but the agenda is being driven by citycentric people with little regard how do we make this work in regional, rural and outback Australia.
The rush is to get cars on the road before the infastructure is built, I read somewhere yesterday and I ment to bookmark it, dealers are having supply issues with the FORD F150 Lightning demand is out stripping supply, the waiting list is up to 5 years, with as little as 1-2 units a being deliverd.
AS far as Hydogen I see it as a slow rollout to rural areas, about 8-9 years ago Kenworth were planning to release an LNG power truck, the sevice station I ran was one of a small number that was to have LNG pumps, the roll out was planned to service the east coast transport run, Melb-Syd-Bris, that had later plans to only setup in major inter city routes.
At a guess I would see Hydogen replicating that idea in the first instance.
Vast countries like us, will have a slow take up of EV's, comparing us the Europe they are nothing like us.
Heres a comparison test from Aust
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnXH2lqW4Hg
Firstly: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=295288728074680
Next the Krakatoa eruption resulted in a several year long world wide winters:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18925385-000-krakatoa-eruption-cooled-the-world/
And there are records of volcano eruptions in Iceland and Alaska cooling the planet too.