Its funny how a subject or post the get you thinking how could you do it now.
About 8 or 9 years ago we were a single car family a Ford Fiesta, I took 3 weeks holidays asking my wife if she wanted to come to Darwin, I wanted to visit a couple of friends and have a couple of days fishing, her reponse was that she did not want to go, but told me to go if I want to.
So on a whim I loaded up the car and headed to Darwin, first leg was Melbourne to Port Pirie over night there at a friends place, next leg was Pt Pirie to Erldunda overnight there next leg was to Katherine an other overnight stop, then into Darwin the next day.
I had a great week and a bit in Darwin catching up with friends, plus 3 great days of fishing ( 2 stryene boxes filled with fish fillets and packed in Dry Ice), return trip was Darwin-Tennant Creek-Pt Pirie-Melbourne.
Overall I travelled around 8000 Kms for the return trip, the Fiesta has a 42 ltr fuel tank returning 6l/100k a comfortable range of 600 kilometers.
What hit me last night is how would a single car family of a similar size EV travel a similar journey.
After a bit of googling it became apparant that small EV's with 250-350k range or any EV would be unable to make such a journey. Mainly due to the lack of super chargers, many are 240v 32amp chargers which generally provide approximatly 45kms charge per hour.
It would take a massive investment to upgrade chargers to high speed 50+ amps to enable EV's to tour.
I was trying to be positive about using an EV, but now I dont see an EV being a viable choice for someone who chooses to live in the country, or likes to go sightseeing around their region, state or further.
DMaxer said
01:01 PM May 13, 2022
Like everything else Gundog, when they become more popular and the numbers increase then so will the amount of charging stations.
When I was a little kid in the 1950's one of our neighbours had an interstate truck and would travel from Sydney to Perth and return every six weeks or so. He had to carry fuel as there were large portions of the route that had no petrol stations. The road was dirt most of the way and the truck would return, covered in dust, with empty 44 gallon drums on the trailer.
Over the next few years the road improved with longer sealed sections and more petrol/diesel supplies and he did not need to carry the fuel drums anymore.
The same will happen here I am sure.
Are We Lost said
01:21 PM May 13, 2022
The problem I see is how to provide the infrastructure to these charging stations.
While the number of EVs travelling in these remote areas is small, the typical recharging station may work with one or two chargers. But what happens when there is a demaind for twice that many. At 50+ amps each that is a huge demand and the street infrastuctre may not have that capacity.
What about when most of a town's vehicles are EV with many plugged into overnight charging stations, how will the infrastructure feeding the town cope? Will this require huge investment in powerline capacity? And with no sun during the darkness hours, where will the power come from? A few consecutive cloudy days and any storage systems will be rapidly depleted. Systems need to be designed to cater for these periods.
I know the move to EV is neccesary, and we will find a way. But there are plenty of obstacles that are easily overlooked by those beating their drums.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 13th of May 2022 01:26:37 PM
Mein said
02:48 PM May 13, 2022
A recent news report quoted a senior executive of a major oil company as saying that practical factors dictate that oil will continue to be used for transport for many years to come.
It may well be that, in the not-too-distant future, Australia will adopt New Zealand style levies / extra taxes for non fuel efficient vehicles. However, I think petrol will continue to be sold beyond our (persons aged 50+) lifetimes.
As an aside, I don't get that Australians don't get that nothing the Australian government does and nothing the Australian people do can or will slow down climate change or decrease the effects of climate change.
Even The Australian Greens' proposal that Australia stop exporting coal altogether wouldnt have an impact because Indonesia, the US, South Africa, Colombia, et al would immediately make up the shortfall.
Are We Lost said
03:35 PM May 13, 2022
Mein wrote:....
As an aside, I don't get that Australians don't get that nothing the Australian government does and nothing the Australian people do can or will slow down climate change or decrease the effects of climate change.
Even The Australian Greens' proposal that Australia stop exporting coal altogether wouldnt have an impact because Indonesia, the US, South Africa, Colombia, et al would immediately make up the shortfall.
Agree 100% that our efforts in slowing it down are a futile waste of money. Australia can achieve zilch in the global outcome.
But if you believe it's coming, then our efforts and expenditure should be on mitigating the effects. If sea levels are going to rise, why are we still building on coastal flood prone sites? Why are we building on good farming land anyway? And larger homes and offices with bigger and bigger windows all requiring more energy?
Why aren't we curtailing population growth? Without population growth there would be no global warming. That is a far more imminent and serious problem than climate change. Yet our financial incentives are promoting larger families rather than reducing them. All contributing to our future emissions and growth of manufacturing and waste. If we should be setting a fruitless example with emissions reductions, why not the same example for population?
But, back to the original post, there is no escaping the fact that the world's supply of oil is not endless. So oil is going to become a limited resource, and EV will be heading in the direction to wean us off fossil fuels. So we need to resolve these obstacles and make it work.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 13th of May 2022 03:41:50 PM
After a bit of googling it became apparant that small EV's with 250-350k range or any EV would be unable to make such a journey. Mainly due to the lack of super chargers, many are 240v 32amp chargers which generally provide approximatly 45kms charge per hour.
It would take a massive investment to upgrade chargers to high speed 50+ amps to enable EV's to tour.
I was trying to be positive about using an EV, but now I dont see an EV being a viable choice for someone who chooses to live in the country, or likes to go sightseeing around their region, state or further.
A few years after the introduction of ICE cars to this country, you would not have been able to make your journey in a car either, unless you towed a trailer for the fuel.
I am willing to wager that charging stations will be developed faster than pertol stations were at the beginning of last centuary.
It will happen faster than any of us can predict.
Cheers,
Peter
peter67 said
06:55 PM May 13, 2022
Forget long distance country travel, it won't even happen in cities without a MASSIVE city grid upgrade so we can all plug in after work.
Mike Harding said
07:12 PM May 13, 2022
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:.
It will happen faster than any of us can predict.
Is that your prediction?
Mein said
09:05 PM May 13, 2022
I am willing to wager that charging stations will be developed faster than pertol stations were at the beginning of last centuary.
It will happen faster than any of us can predict.
Cheers,
Peter
What would be the estimated cost of turning a vacant block of land into a petrol station? Surely it would be a huge investment that would take many years to recoup and surely the investors would feel confident that their investment was sound?
There are 3 new petrol stations under construction here in Mackay.
dorian said
04:50 AM May 14, 2022
I can imagine that the Model T horseless carriage would have faced similar obstacles. There were no petrol stations in the country areas, only grass to fuel the horse that pulled the cart.
Are We Lost said
10:46 AM May 14, 2022
Comparing the early days of horseless carriages to the early days of electic vehicles overlooks an important point.
It was easy to transport fuel in 44 gallon drums and store them at strategic locations. Nio infrastructure was needed as it could be pumped manually. If demand increased, just transport more by truck. We still truck the fuel to these strategic locations, just in bigger barrels.
That is the point I was making earlier ..... it's easy enough to install charging stations (although costly) but what about when the demand in an area exceeds the capability of the infrastructure to supply it. First the charging station needs to be upgraded, then the street supply, then the mains that feed the town. Yes it's all doable, but it is NOT just a matter of putting in more chargers.
yobarr said
12:50 PM May 14, 2022
dorian wrote:
I can imagine that the Model T horseless carriage would have faced similar obstacles. There were no petrol stations in the country areas, only grass to fuel the horse that pulled the cart.
Ah, but the Model T, or was it the Model A (?) could be made to appear to run on water if it ran out of petrol! Because the fuel outlet was an inch or two above the floor of the fuel tank there still was petrol in the tank when the ehgine starved. Because water is heavier than petrol, it was simply a matter of pouring a small amount of water into the tank, thus lifting the petrol up to the fuel outlet, and away you could go, all be it temporarily! VERY important, however, not to put too much water in the tank or the water level would reach the outlet with sad results! Cheers
Buzz Lightbulb said
01:30 PM May 14, 2022
It's very interesting that the topic of infrastructure has been discussed on this thread. Here's a bit about what the different parties are going to do about it.
One party wants to increase the grid infrastructure which will help with supply and allow renewables to not overload the grid. It also wants to install 'community batteries' to help with peak local loads.
The latter could be used where the EV charging stations are located to help with that sudden demand for charging a bunch of cars.
The other party wants to increase in gas and the hydro 2.0. The latter is necessary for long term storage of energy but the former will just makes things worse.
It's interesting that many people just look at the problems but don't search for the solutions.
Federal election: Contrasting solutions to building Australia's new and more flexible electricity system
Long range & heavy vehicles will be hydrogen. They can be refueled in minutes. There is a Queensland bus company that is planning to make its own hydrogen. One kilogram of hydrogen is equivalent to five or six litres of diesel in terms of operational efficiency. This increases in conditions such as stop-start use for city buses.
Its funny how a subject or post the get you thinking how could you do it now.
About 8 or 9 years ago we were a single car family a Ford Fiesta, I took 3 weeks holidays asking my wife if she wanted to come to Darwin, I wanted to visit a couple of friends and have a couple of days fishing, her reponse was that she did not want to go, but told me to go if I want to.
So on a whim I loaded up the car and headed to Darwin, first leg was Melbourne to Port Pirie over night there at a friends place, next leg was Pt Pirie to Erldunda overnight there next leg was to Katherine an other overnight stop, then into Darwin the next day.
I had a great week and a bit in Darwin catching up with friends, plus 3 great days of fishing ( 2 stryene boxes filled with fish fillets and packed in Dry Ice), return trip was Darwin-Tennant Creek-Pt Pirie-Melbourne.
Overall I travelled around 8000 Kms for the return trip, the Fiesta has a 42 ltr fuel tank returning 6l/100k a comfortable range of 600 kilometers.
What hit me last night is how would a single car family of a similar size EV travel a similar journey.
After a bit of googling it became apparant that small EV's with 250-350k range or any EV would be unable to make such a journey. Mainly due to the lack of super chargers, many are 240v 32amp chargers which generally provide approximatly 45kms charge per hour.
It would take a massive investment to upgrade chargers to high speed 50+ amps to enable EV's to tour.
I was trying to be positive about using an EV, but now I dont see an EV being a viable choice for someone who chooses to live in the country, or likes to go sightseeing around their region, state or further.
Like everything else Gundog, when they become more popular and the numbers increase then so will the amount of charging stations.
When I was a little kid in the 1950's one of our neighbours had an interstate truck and would travel from Sydney to Perth and return every six weeks or so. He had to carry fuel as there were large portions of the route that had no petrol stations. The road was dirt most of the way and the truck would return, covered in dust, with empty 44 gallon drums on the trailer.
Over the next few years the road improved with longer sealed sections and more petrol/diesel supplies and he did not need to carry the fuel drums anymore.
The same will happen here I am sure.
The problem I see is how to provide the infrastructure to these charging stations.
While the number of EVs travelling in these remote areas is small, the typical recharging station may work with one or two chargers. But what happens when there is a demaind for twice that many. At 50+ amps each that is a huge demand and the street infrastuctre may not have that capacity.
What about when most of a town's vehicles are EV with many plugged into overnight charging stations, how will the infrastructure feeding the town cope? Will this require huge investment in powerline capacity? And with no sun during the darkness hours, where will the power come from? A few consecutive cloudy days and any storage systems will be rapidly depleted. Systems need to be designed to cater for these periods.
I know the move to EV is neccesary, and we will find a way. But there are plenty of obstacles that are easily overlooked by those beating their drums.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 13th of May 2022 01:26:37 PM
A recent news report quoted a senior executive of a major oil company as saying that practical factors dictate that oil will continue to be used for transport for many years to come.
It may well be that, in the not-too-distant future, Australia will adopt New Zealand style levies / extra taxes for non fuel efficient vehicles. However, I think petrol will continue to be sold beyond our (persons aged 50+) lifetimes.
As an aside, I don't get that Australians don't get that nothing the Australian government does and nothing the Australian people do can or will slow down climate change or decrease the effects of climate change.
Even The Australian Greens' proposal that Australia stop exporting coal altogether wouldnt have an impact because Indonesia, the US, South Africa, Colombia, et al would immediately make up the shortfall.
Agree 100% that our efforts in slowing it down are a futile waste of money. Australia can achieve zilch in the global outcome.
But if you believe it's coming, then our efforts and expenditure should be on mitigating the effects. If sea levels are going to rise, why are we still building on coastal flood prone sites? Why are we building on good farming land anyway? And larger homes and offices with bigger and bigger windows all requiring more energy?
Why aren't we curtailing population growth? Without population growth there would be no global warming. That is a far more imminent and serious problem than climate change. Yet our financial incentives are promoting larger families rather than reducing them. All contributing to our future emissions and growth of manufacturing and waste. If we should be setting a fruitless example with emissions reductions, why not the same example for population?
But, back to the original post, there is no escaping the fact that the world's supply of oil is not endless. So oil is going to become a limited resource, and EV will be heading in the direction to wean us off fossil fuels. So we need to resolve these obstacles and make it work.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 13th of May 2022 03:41:50 PM
A few years after the introduction of ICE cars to this country, you would not have been able to make your journey in a car either, unless you towed a trailer for the fuel.
I am willing to wager that charging stations will be developed faster than pertol stations were at the beginning of last centuary.
It will happen faster than any of us can predict.
Cheers,
Peter
Is that your prediction?
I am willing to wager that charging stations will be developed faster than pertol stations were at the beginning of last centuary.
It will happen faster than any of us can predict.
Cheers,
Peter
What would be the estimated cost of turning a vacant block of land into a petrol station? Surely it would be a huge investment that would take many years to recoup and surely the investors would feel confident that their investment was sound?
There are 3 new petrol stations under construction here in Mackay.
It was easy to transport fuel in 44 gallon drums and store them at strategic locations. Nio infrastructure was needed as it could be pumped manually. If demand increased, just transport more by truck. We still truck the fuel to these strategic locations, just in bigger barrels.
That is the point I was making earlier ..... it's easy enough to install charging stations (although costly) but what about when the demand in an area exceeds the capability of the infrastructure to supply it. First the charging station needs to be upgraded, then the street supply, then the mains that feed the town. Yes it's all doable, but it is NOT just a matter of putting in more chargers.
Ah, but the Model T, or was it the Model A (?) could be made to appear to run on water if it ran out of petrol! Because the fuel outlet was an inch or two above the floor of the fuel tank there still was petrol in the tank when the ehgine starved. Because water is heavier than petrol, it was simply a matter of pouring a small amount of water into the tank, thus lifting the petrol up to the fuel outlet, and away you could go, all be it temporarily! VERY important, however, not to put too much water in the tank or the water level would reach the outlet with sad results! Cheers
It's very interesting that the topic of infrastructure has been discussed on this thread. Here's a bit about what the different parties are going to do about it.
One party wants to increase the grid infrastructure which will help with supply and allow renewables to not overload the grid. It also wants to install 'community batteries' to help with peak local loads.
The latter could be used where the EV charging stations are located to help with that sudden demand for charging a bunch of cars.
The other party wants to increase in gas and the hydro 2.0. The latter is necessary for long term storage of energy but the former will just makes things worse.
It's interesting that many people just look at the problems but don't search for the solutions.
Federal election: Contrasting solutions to building Australia's new and more flexible electricity system
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-14/federal-election-new-more-flexible-electricity-system/101066280
Long range & heavy vehicles will be hydrogen. They can be refueled in minutes. There is a Queensland bus company that is planning to make its own hydrogen.
Hydrogen trucks for Australia (goauto.com.au)
And they will be an option for smaller vehicles too.
Hydrogen cars: Everything you need to know | RACV
Except, many people will opt for battery/electric for their city car because they will be able to recharge it from their own solar at home.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Saturday 14th of May 2022 03:02:00 PM
And I thought Dinosaurs were extinct, obviously not!!
Ian