I've just been reading about fires in caravans so I wondered
Are there any regulations about the fire rating of materials used in caravan manufacture?
I do just not mean the flammability, but gasses generated when the materials burn.
Also are there any regulations about the need for emergency exits from the ends of the caravan if the fire prevents use of the door which is usually towards the centre of the van?
Corndoggy said
11:33 PM Apr 22, 2022
Never seen a sticker on a caravan saying "Push here in case of emergency". As for materials, who knows, but it is a good point.
Would be interesting just how many caravan fires happen as you never hear of much considering how many are travelling around now.
oldbloke said
12:36 AM Apr 23, 2022
It is a good point.
It's not regulated that I am aware of.
If it were a five star system my guess would be that 9 out of 10 vans would rank a 1.
Forget the 1kg extinguisher, just GTFO.
Whenarewethere said
05:42 AM Apr 23, 2022
There was a program on TV which showed an old room of a house burning, then a modern house. The new house burnt a lot quicker. Then once the fire got going it burnt much more fiercely, then basically exploded.
It's not only the materials of the structure, it is also the materials of the things we fill those structures with which add to the fire.
montie said
07:00 AM Apr 23, 2022
Aluminium composite is highly flamable , It's similar cladding to that used on many high rise buildings including the one that burnt down in the UK. Obviously timber frame is also highly flamable.
-- Edited by montie on Saturday 23rd of April 2022 07:01:05 AM
Rob Driver said
07:09 AM Apr 23, 2022
Whenarewethere wrote:
There was a program on TV which showed an old room of a house burning, then a modern house. The new house burnt a lot quicker. Then once the fire got going it burnt much more fiercely, then basically exploded.
It's not only the materials of the structure, it is also the materials of the things we fill those structures with which add to the fire.
Yes, I saw that presentation as well.
The explosion from what I remember of the report is the ignition of a build up of gases given off from different materials during the fire.
Caravan fires quite often commence with an explosion which can generally be gas related or at the least related to equipment that was not original equipment within the van.
Causes could possibly be electrical fault or even faulty equipment chargers.
Many caravan fires could begin in the kitchen and by design at least some vans have the kitchen adjacent to the exit door.
To my knowledge there is no requirement for emergency exits but as old bloke said just GTFO.if at all possible.
Cupie said
11:16 AM Apr 23, 2022
We have discussed & demonstrated our exit strategy.
vis . Wind out the window at least to half way & remove the flexible plastic mesh fly screen from the large low window at the foot of our bed. Roll out to the ground at about waist level (no drop).
On occasion I pull up the corner of that screen to feed in a TV lead. All that is required is to lift the rubber screen edging out of the channel & pull the rest of the edging out. To facilitate this I have left a small 'tab' of fabric under the screen edging in the lower RH corner so that it is not firmly 'locked' in the track. In any case a good punch to the edge of the screen will cause it to rip along the edge. It is after all, about 20 years old & a bit brittle.
Our kitchen, perhaps the most likely location of a van fire, is adjacent to the van door.
We have 2 extinguishers, one in the kitchen & one beside the bed, & a fire blanket in the van. There is another extinguisher in the Patrol. But, we too will GTFO rather than becoming late life fire fighters. My phone & spare keys live beside the bed.
oldbloke said
12:59 PM Apr 23, 2022
montie wrote:
Aluminium composite is highly flamable , It's similar cladding to that used on many high rise buildings including the one that burnt down in the UK. Obviously timber frame is also highly flamable.
-- Edited by montie on Saturday 23rd of April 2022 07:01:05 AM
Yes, that's the primary reason why give them 1 star.
Once it gets going aluminium burns really well.
Cupie said
01:45 PM Apr 23, 2022
Are modern caravans made with Aluminium Composite (which seems to be a plastic core with a covering of thin aluminium sheeting) or straight Aluminium sheeting?
I know my 1999 van is pure sheeting, having had to cut out a section to replace the shower fitting.
I read that Aluminium Composite sheeting is available with fire rated specs. eg....
Fire rated aluminium composite panel refers to that aluminium composite panel is adopted flame-retardant core material, and the combustion performance of the product reaches the refractory grade (class B1) or non-combustible grade (class A); At the same time, other performance indicators must also meet the technical specifications of aluminum composite panels.
Whenarewethere said
04:12 PM Apr 23, 2022
The aluminium composite panels on buildings are required to be fire rated. Unfortunately a lot of it was substituted for cheaper non fire rated products.
Cassie63 said
04:26 PM Apr 23, 2022
Early warning is the key to all types of fires, have a working smoke alarm/detector.
oldbloke said
09:56 PM Apr 23, 2022
Cassie63 wrote:
Early warning is the key to all types of fires, have a working smoke alarm/detector.
Nope, the key to fire safety is smart building design. Including materials used.
Smart design prevents or hinders fire.
An alarm only warns people.
Extinguisher systems suppress fire.
Regarding cladding. Fire ratings are only required for high rise. The past problem (plenty of media coverage) was that much cladding used did not comply and some of the "independent" inspectors chose to ignore the use of non- compliant cladding. A simple conflict of interest created by the government when the privatised the system.
Frankly, when I discovered that aluminium cladding that had plastic included was in use I thought it was utter madness.
Plastic is oil and aluminium is used in rocket fuel and flares. Dumber than dumb than stupid. IMHO.
Most vans are like mine, aluminium clad wooden frame. Some use aluminium composite much the same as the cladding.
The furniture, including vinyl seating, chip board would add fuel to a fire. I would be very surprised if the fire rating of vans is regulated in any way apart from the requirement to have a dry powder extinguisher and smoke alarm.
Like I stated earlier, GTFO.
Modern houses use pine frames instead of hard wood, burns faster.
Whenarewethere said
10:15 PM Apr 23, 2022
oldbloke wrote:
some of the "independent" inspectors chose to ignore the use of non- compliant cladding. A simple conflict of interest created by the government when the privatised the system.
If private certifiers want future work some i's are crossed and t's dotted!
oldbloke said
10:47 PM Apr 23, 2022
Whenarewethere wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
some of the "independent" inspectors chose to ignore the use of non- compliant cladding. A simple conflict of interest created by the government when the privatised the system.
If private certifiers want future work some i's are crossed and t's dotted!
Sorry, that is not how it worked.
Inspectors were contracted by the builders. So the emphasis was in passing everything, whether it complied or not.
If the inspectors insisted on additional, or more expensive fire supression materials/systems or whatever they never got repeat work with that or other builders for that matter. Word spreads.
Remember the builder wants to increase profit, that means spending less on the building.
As I said, a simple conflict of interest.
I'm sure it's changed now though. Mmmm, well maybe.
Whenarewethere said
11:11 PM Apr 23, 2022
I worked with architects & developers.
Cassie63 said
05:31 AM Apr 24, 2022
We have gone off track again, the topic is about caravans not buildings. Certifiers and fire engineers will always do their best to meet their clients needs and cut corners to reduce building and on going Maintainence costs by using performance solutions to address NCC criteria. Building authorities are powerless to stop it.
Jaahn said
03:39 PM Apr 24, 2022
jegog wrote:
I've just been reading about fires in caravans so I wondered
Are there any regulations about the fire rating of materials used in caravan manufacture?
I do just not mean the flammability, but gasses generated when the materials burn.
Also are there any regulations about the need for emergency exits from the ends of the caravan if the fire prevents use of the door which is usually towards the centre of the van?
HI jegog
I would probably give a caravan about a 1 rating also. And the fumes from the plastic and cupboard and wall coatings and cushions etc will be lethal IMHO.
I would agree that you should have an extinguisher beside the door to grab on the way out as you GTFO!! As well as a fire blanket near the stove.
However to be fair when discussing aluminium composite panels the situation is not very similar to the building cladding which has proved so catastrophic for high rise buildings. They have a chimney effect from the gap, that cause big draughts between the cladding and the wall, that drives up the fire intensity greatly. A caravan wall is only a couple of meters high and does not have an air gap behind it.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 24th of April 2022 03:41:55 PM
TimTim said
10:28 PM Apr 24, 2022
As a retired accredited certifier who was one of the old school building surveyors I can tell you that the issues in the building industry are far greater than what you read or hear in the media. In the State that I reside there are more inspections required by the legislation for a single dwelling than there were for a multi storey high rise. It is easy to put the blame on certifiers, and yes a small very small minority deserve it, but the issues go far beyond them. There were never the issues in building that we have today and the people to blame are those in government that have no idea what they are doing and just follow the lead of other countries and States. My apologies for being off topic.
As for caravans, there are no fire regulations but the composite panels used are not the same as the polyethylene panels that were used in the building industry. The materials you put in your vans probably have more inflammability than what is already in there so just remember do not leave the top off your whiskey bottles .
-- Edited by TimTim on Sunday 24th of April 2022 10:30:36 PM
-- Edited by TimTim on Monday 25th of April 2022 09:52:42 AM
Cassie63 said
04:50 AM Apr 25, 2022
So as I said earlier, make sure you have a working smoke alarm.
oldbloke said
06:40 AM Apr 25, 2022
"They have a chimney effect from the gap, that cause big draughts between the cladding and the wall, that drives up the fire intensity greatly. A caravan wall is only a couple of meters high and does not have an air gap behind"
That makes sense.
Yes, the government's crap decisions is the primary cause.
B1RD1E said
12:20 PM Apr 26, 2022
Recently I audited fire potential on my Jayco Silverline .
I really like the secure storage area for the 2 x LPG bottles. I completed the Vic CFA fire-fighters LPG gas course years ago and I will never forget how lethal LPG is.
Check your portable BBQ....All LPG BBQs installed since 2019 must have a flame suppression device
Usually as a thermocouple. Usually the BBQ is operated up against the RV Wall to limit wind, aid stability or on a slide out.
If it is close to the Van door, access to the fire extinguisher will be limited in cases of fire in BBQ
A simple test is to note that gas supply stops if flame is extinguished....if gas continues to be supplied you probably do not have an Australian standard compliant BBQ. There are many like this...The potential for Insurance denial is strong
I added an addional external extinguisher to the van, happier now but gas leakage, tampering or bottle theft was on my mind before purchasing anything with LPG.
Aus-Kiwi said
07:43 PM Apr 27, 2022
Yes I was going to mention gas bottles etc next would be electrical fires !! That starts fire in the first place . Ive replaced curtains with flame resistant material. But like the insurance add ! Shutting the window puts it out !
jegog said
01:09 AM Apr 29, 2022
Cupie wrote:
We have discussed & demonstrated our exit strategy.
vis . Wind out the window at least to half way & remove the flexible plastic mesh fly screen from the large low window at the foot of our bed. Roll out to the ground at about waist level (no drop).
How long does it take you to wind down the window?
The opening window will feed oxygen to the fire, so it needs to be opened pretty quickly.
Phlipper said
11:37 AM May 1, 2022
I shudder to think how fibreglass Vans, such as mine would fare in a fire ?
TimTim said
03:29 PM May 1, 2022
If the fibreglass of your caravan is burning and you are still inside then you are probably already dead. Irrespective of what the lining or materials you have inside your smoke alarm would have alerted you long before. Similarly, the worry about opening a door and providing oxygen to a fire, you will have been alerted long before any fire gets to that stage.
Im sure everyone here would have set off a smoke detector at sometime, if not put some toast in a toaster and burn it. Your smoke alarm will go off without you being able to see or barely able to see any smoke.
Your 1kg dry powder fire extinguisher will last approximately 10 seconds and you need to point it at the base of any fire, not at the flames.
From a UK study
Late night eating was found to be at fault for many blazes in the kitchen, with almost half of the 4,900 chip pan fire casualties last year taking place between 8pm and 4am.
Chip pan fire burns accounted for 53 per cent of non-fatal injuries in household fires, with almost two in 10 resulting in some kind of casualty.
The study also found that 'many chip and fat pan fires are caused by late night cooking, particularly by men, under the influence of alcohol'.
Sadly I knew someone that did a similar thing in a caravan and didnt survive.
-- Edited by TimTim on Sunday 1st of May 2022 11:46:43 PM
Mike Harding said
03:36 PM May 1, 2022
Fire is one of the reasons I purchased a caravan which has windows at the bed end (front) through which I can exit in an emergency.
I've just been reading about fires in caravans so I wondered
Are there any regulations about the fire rating of materials used in caravan manufacture?
I do just not mean the flammability, but gasses generated when the materials burn.
Also are there any regulations about the need for emergency exits from the ends of the caravan if the fire prevents use of the door which is usually towards the centre of the van?
Would be interesting just how many caravan fires happen as you never hear of much considering how many are travelling around now.
It's not regulated that I am aware of.
If it were a five star system my guess would be that 9 out of 10 vans would rank a 1.
Forget the 1kg extinguisher, just GTFO.
There was a program on TV which showed an old room of a house burning, then a modern house. The new house burnt a lot quicker. Then once the fire got going it burnt much more fiercely, then basically exploded.
It's not only the materials of the structure, it is also the materials of the things we fill those structures with which add to the fire.
Aluminium composite is highly flamable , It's similar cladding to that used on many high rise buildings including the one that burnt down in the UK.
Obviously timber frame is also highly flamable.
-- Edited by montie on Saturday 23rd of April 2022 07:01:05 AM
Yes, I saw that presentation as well.
The explosion from what I remember of the report is the ignition of a build up of gases given off from different materials during the fire.
Caravan fires quite often commence with an explosion which can generally be gas related or at the least related to equipment that was not original equipment within the van.
Causes could possibly be electrical fault or even faulty equipment chargers.
Many caravan fires could begin in the kitchen and by design at least some vans have the kitchen adjacent to the exit door.
To my knowledge there is no requirement for emergency exits but as old bloke said just GTFO.if at all possible.
We have discussed & demonstrated our exit strategy.
vis . Wind out the window at least to half way & remove the flexible plastic mesh fly screen from the large low window at the foot of our bed. Roll out to the ground at about waist level (no drop).
On occasion I pull up the corner of that screen to feed in a TV lead. All that is required is to lift the rubber screen edging out of the channel & pull the rest of the edging out. To facilitate this I have left a small 'tab' of fabric under the screen edging in the lower RH corner so that it is not firmly 'locked' in the track. In any case a good punch to the edge of the screen will cause it to rip along the edge. It is after all, about 20 years old & a bit brittle.
Our kitchen, perhaps the most likely location of a van fire, is adjacent to the van door.
We have 2 extinguishers, one in the kitchen & one beside the bed, & a fire blanket in the van. There is another extinguisher in the Patrol. But, we too will GTFO rather than becoming late life fire fighters. My phone & spare keys live beside the bed.
Yes, that's the primary reason why give them 1 star.
Once it gets going aluminium burns really well.
Are modern caravans made with Aluminium Composite (which seems to be a plastic core with a covering of thin aluminium sheeting) or straight Aluminium sheeting?
I know my 1999 van is pure sheeting, having had to cut out a section to replace the shower fitting.
I read that Aluminium Composite sheeting is available with fire rated specs. eg....
Fire rated aluminium composite panel refers to that aluminium composite panel is adopted flame-retardant core material, and the combustion performance of the product reaches the refractory grade (class B1) or non-combustible grade (class A); At the same time, other performance indicators must also meet the technical specifications of aluminum composite panels.
The aluminium composite panels on buildings are required to be fire rated. Unfortunately a lot of it was substituted for cheaper non fire rated products.
Nope, the key to fire safety is smart building design. Including materials used.
Smart design prevents or hinders fire.
An alarm only warns people.
Extinguisher systems suppress fire.
Regarding cladding. Fire ratings are only required for high rise. The past problem (plenty of media coverage) was that much cladding used did not comply and some of the "independent" inspectors chose to ignore the use of non- compliant cladding. A simple conflict of interest created by the government when the privatised the system.
Frankly, when I discovered that aluminium cladding that had plastic included was in use I thought it was utter madness.
Plastic is oil and aluminium is used in rocket fuel and flares. Dumber than dumb than stupid. IMHO.
Most vans are like mine, aluminium clad wooden frame. Some use aluminium composite much the same as the cladding.
The furniture, including vinyl seating, chip board would add fuel to a fire. I would be very surprised if the fire rating of vans is regulated in any way apart from the requirement to have a dry powder extinguisher and smoke alarm.
Like I stated earlier, GTFO.
Modern houses use pine frames instead of hard wood, burns faster.
If private certifiers want future work some i's are crossed and t's dotted!
Sorry, that is not how it worked.
Inspectors were contracted by the builders. So the emphasis was in passing everything, whether it complied or not.
If the inspectors insisted on additional, or more expensive fire supression materials/systems or whatever they never got repeat work with that or other builders for that matter. Word spreads.
Remember the builder wants to increase profit, that means spending less on the building.
As I said, a simple conflict of interest.
I'm sure it's changed now though. Mmmm, well maybe.
I worked with architects & developers.
HI jegog
I would probably give a caravan about a 1 rating also. And the fumes from the plastic and cupboard and wall coatings and cushions etc will be lethal IMHO.
I would agree that you should have an extinguisher beside the door to grab on the way out as you GTFO!! As well as a fire blanket near the stove.
However to be fair when discussing aluminium composite panels the situation is not very similar to the building cladding which has proved so catastrophic for high rise buildings. They have a chimney effect from the gap, that cause big draughts between the cladding and the wall, that drives up the fire intensity greatly. A caravan wall is only a couple of meters high and does not have an air gap behind it.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 24th of April 2022 03:41:55 PM
As a retired accredited certifier who was one of the old school building surveyors I can tell you that the issues in the building industry are far greater than what you read or hear in the media. In the State that I reside there are more inspections required by the legislation for a single dwelling than there were for a multi storey high rise. It is easy to put the blame on certifiers, and yes a small very small minority deserve it, but the issues go far beyond them. There were never the issues in building that we have today and the people to blame are those in government that have no idea what they are doing and just follow the lead of other countries and States. My apologies for being off topic.
As for caravans, there are no fire regulations but the composite panels used are not the same as the polyethylene panels that were used in the building industry. The materials you put in your vans probably have more inflammability than what is already in there so just remember do not leave the top off your whiskey bottles
.
-- Edited by TimTim on Sunday 24th of April 2022 10:30:36 PM
-- Edited by TimTim on Monday 25th of April 2022 09:52:42 AM
That makes sense.
Yes, the government's crap decisions is the primary cause.
How long does it take you to wind down the window?
The opening window will feed oxygen to the fire, so it needs to be opened pretty quickly.
If the fibreglass of your caravan is burning and you are still inside then you are probably already dead. Irrespective of what the lining or materials you have inside your smoke alarm would have alerted you long before. Similarly, the worry about opening a door and providing oxygen to a fire, you will have been alerted long before any fire gets to that stage.
Im sure everyone here would have set off a smoke detector at sometime, if not put some toast in a toaster and burn it. Your smoke alarm will go off without you being able to see or barely able to see any smoke.
Your 1kg dry powder fire extinguisher will last approximately 10 seconds and you need to point it at the base of any fire, not at the flames.
From a UK study
Late night eating was found to be at fault for many blazes in the kitchen, with almost half of the 4,900 chip pan fire casualties last year taking place between 8pm and 4am.
Chip pan fire burns accounted for 53 per cent of non-fatal injuries in household fires, with almost two in 10 resulting in some kind of casualty.
The study also found that 'many chip and fat pan fires are caused by late night cooking, particularly by men, under the influence of alcohol'.
Sadly I knew someone that did a similar thing in a caravan and didnt survive.
-- Edited by TimTim on Sunday 1st of May 2022 11:46:43 PM
Fire is one of the reasons I purchased a caravan which has windows at the bed end (front) through which I can exit in an emergency.