Hi, I write to enlist the advice of others that have experienced caravan sway and worked to eradicate it.
I have owned many caravans previously and have never experienced sway like that in the new van we purchased late in 2021.
I was on the North-South Highway travelling back from McLaren Vale. I entered a rise followed by a small passage downhill before a steeper hill the other side when a Quarry Truck pulling a trailer overtook me. I was doing 85km/h at the time.
I was aware of the pressure wave trucks create as they pass you but were not ready for the mild sway this caused, lasting up to 45 secs - more than anything I had experienced in the past. I kept a cool head and accelerated as I entered the hill in order to pull the caravan into a st. line. Even so, it was unnerving and had me thinking what if it had been a road train on a smaller country road with undulations or even camber. On arrival home I set about corrective actions to overcome the issue.
I researched the vehicle's and caravan's tyre pressures to ensure they were close to that specified. They were; and were not a factor.
The ball weight of the 21' caravan was 140kg at Tare and 190kg loaded, the latter as measured by me using a ball weight scale. I took before and after measurements of the rear and front of the Ford Everest - unloaded and loaded hitched to the fully laden caravan to arrive at the 190kg ball weight. The rear of the Everest dipped by 47mm. The obvious was that my front wheels were light on the ground. I consulted various suspension companies and received mixed opinions - 'fit air bags to your rear springs', 'fit a weight distribution hitch' and 'replace the soft Everest springs with heavier duty springs, air bags and dampers'.
- I discounted the air bags only solution as correcting the sway sufficiently that I had experienced.
- I purchased a Fastway weight distribution hitch (WDH) 'Equalizer 2' with sway control but believe I have potentially reduced the caravan's ball weight by up to 30%, i.e. 133kgs. This is a lot lighter than the AUS standard of the ideal ball weight being between 10-15% of the loaded caravan. My calculations are that the van is 2800kgs loaded and that may be a tad generous (van's ATM is 3200kg). I have also calculated that I have 400kgs allowance compared with the Everest's GCM (gross combined mass = caravan + car both loaded).
Now applying the lesser AUS standard of 10% that would suggest I should have a ball weight of 280kgs when fully loaded and hitched. I have potentially 133kg to 148kgs. This leads to the question below.
Q1. Knowing that I never stow weights forward or aft of the caravan's axles to avoid the 'dumb-bell effect' of the rear and front of van swaying, how critical is it that I increase the van's ball weight?
I have spoken to my local Pedders distributorship this afternoon and new information has emerged. The salesman claimed he had family members that owned Ford Everests with one pulling a Jayco van. He stated the Everest's springs are very soft and ill-tolerant of towing vans - even with low ball weights. He strongly recommended that I fit heavier duty springs, air bags and new dampers. He stated in his brother's instance, that after doing so the Everest required only a little assistance from the air bags and the rear no longer sank by the margin with the Jayco van hitched.
I suspect the Pedders advice is correct since weak coil springs would offer poor resistance to caravan sway, and minor corrective action of the air bags for firmness is in accord with my understanding of the use for which air bags were intended.
I now fear I possibly have outlaid money on an 'E2' hitch for nothing. The Pedders guy seemed to think it could be useful incorporating the hitch as well but it would not have to be tensioned as much. This leads into my next question.
Q2. Have other owners with a Ford Everest had their rear suspension altered as the Pedders guy has proposed for $1700? (A reasonable amount of money but there again you cannot put a price on safety on the road.)
At the end of the day I wonder how necessary it is given I have the WDH & sway control in the E2 hitch.
PLEASE NOTE: With the E2 hitch fitted the Ford Everest rear now dips 21mm with car + van loaded compared with 47mm without hitch. The car and van are level and in the horizontal plane (no foreseeable problems).
Q3. Bottomline: Given the facts shared above, should I proceed with Pedders to have my rear suspension upgraded OR leave my safety in the hands of the E2 WDH and Sway Control hitch?
FUTURE THOUGHTS/INTENTIONS - TO FACTOR IN
I have added a further 17kg to the A-frame of the caravan in a motorised jack since the above car measurements and ball weight of 90kg was taken. I am also to potentially add a vertical bike rack for 2 bikes to the rear of the A-frame above the toolbox. This will no doubt add additional ball weight, in which case the E2 WDH may still play a vital role in reducing ball weight and distributing that weight to the Everest's front wheels.
All thoughts/experiences of fellow members welcome.
yobarr said
11:45 PM Mar 18, 2022
thalls01 wrote:
Hi, I write to enlist the advice of others that have experienced caravan sway and worked to eradicate it.
I have owned many caravans previously and have never experienced sway like that in the new van we purchased late in 2021.
I was on the North-South Highway travelling back from McLaren Vale. I entered a rise followed by a small passage downhill before a steeper hill the other side when a Quarry Truck pulling a trailer overtook me. I was doing 85km/h at the time.
I was aware of the pressure wave trucks create as they pass you but were not ready for the mild sway this caused, lasting up to 45 secs - more than anything I had experienced in the past. I kept a cool head and accelerated as I entered the hill in order to pull the caravan into a st. line. Even so, it was unnerving and had me thinking what if it had been a road train on a smaller country road with undulations or even camber. On arrival home I set about corrective actions to overcome the issue.
I researched the vehicle's and caravan's tyre pressures to ensure they were close to that specified. They were; and were not a factor.
The ball weight of the 21' caravan was 140kg at Tare and 190kg loaded, the latter as measured by me using a ball weight scale. I took before and after measurements of the rear and front of the Ford Everest - unloaded and loaded hitched to the fully laden caravan to arrive at the 190kg ball weight. The rear of the Everest dipped by 47mm. The obvious was that my front wheels were light on the ground. I consulted various suspension companies and received mixed opinions - 'fit air bags to your rear springs', 'fit a weight distribution hitch' and 'replace the soft Everest springs with heavier duty springs, air bags and dampers'.
- I discounted the air bags only solution as correcting the sway sufficiently that I had experienced.
- I purchased a Fastway weight distribution hitch (WDH) 'Equalizer 2' with sway control but believe I have potentially reduced the caravan's ball weight by up to 30%, i.e. 133kgs. This is a lot lighter than the AUS standard of the ideal ball weight being between 10-15% of the loaded caravan. My calculations are that the van is 2800kgs loaded and that may be a tad generous (van's ATM is 3200kg). I have also calculated that I have 400kgs allowance compared with the Everest's GCM (gross combined mass = caravan + car both loaded).
Now applying the lesser AUS standard of 10% that would suggest I should have a ball weight of 280kgs when fully loaded and hitched. I have potentially 133kg to 148kgs. This leads to the question below.
Q1. Knowing that I never stow weights forward or aft of the caravan's axles to avoid the 'dumb-bell effect' of the rear and front of van swaying, how critical is it that I increase the van's ball weight?
I have spoken to my local Pedders distributorship this afternoon and new information has emerged. The salesman claimed he had family members that owned Ford Everests with one pulling a Jayco van. He stated the Everest's springs are very soft and ill-tolerant of towing vans - even with low ball weights. He strongly recommended that I fit heavier duty springs, air bags and new dampers. He stated in his brother's instance, that after doing so the Everest required only a little assistance from the air bags and the rear no longer sank by the margin with the Jayco van hitched.
I suspect the Pedders advice is correct since weak coil springs would offer poor resistance to caravan sway, and minor corrective action of the air bags for firmness is in accord with my understanding of the use for which air bags were intended.
I now fear I possibly have outlaid money on an 'E2' hitch for nothing. The Pedders guy seemed to think it could be useful incorporating the hitch as well but it would not have to be tensioned as much. This leads into my next question.
Q2. Have other owners with a Ford Everest had their rear suspension altered as the Pedders guy has proposed for $1700? (A reasonable amount of money but there again you cannot put a price on safety on the road.)
At the end of the day I wonder how necessary it is given I have the WDH & sway control in the E2 hitch.
PLEASE NOTE: With the E2 hitch fitted the Ford Everest rear now dips 21mm with car + van loaded compared with 47mm without hitch. The car and van are level and in the horizontal plane (no foreseeable problems).
Q3. Bottomline: Given the facts shared above, should I proceed with Pedders to have my rear suspension upgraded OR leave my safety in the hands of the E2 WDH and Sway Control hitch?
FUTURE THOUGHTS/INTENTIONS - TO FACTOR IN
I have added a further 17kg to the A-frame of the caravan in a motorised jack since the above car measurements and ball weight of 90kg was taken. I am also to potentially add a vertical bike rack for 2 bikes to the rear of the A-frame above the toolbox. This will no doubt add additional ball weight, in which case the E2 WDH may still play a vital role in reducing ball weight and distributing that weight to the Everest's front wheels.
All thoughts/experiences of fellow members welcome.
Hi Timothy. Because I am presently working 15 hour days I can't give you the assistance you desperately need.,but you are being led up the garden path by the people you have spoken to. Their job is to sell you as much rubbish as they can, as theit income is often commission based. WHEN I get time I will assist, but a WDH DOES NOT change ball weight. EVER. The Everest is a great tow vehicle, and I have afriend who swears by his, but your ball weight is WAY too low for starters. Sorry I can't help at present, but I will get back to you as soon as I can. Just hold fire and don't waste even more money.Good luck!
thalls01 said
06:03 AM Mar 19, 2022
Hi yobarr,
Thanks for corresponding with your lack of time presently.
Your advice per ball weight being too low on the van is timely and the confirmation for which I am looking. So I gather I am at the other end of the extreme where my ball weight for the van is too light and it is flapping about the rear like a rag in the wind when subjected to compressive air currents from passing trucks.
It was an experienced off-road caravanning enthusiast/salesman where I purchased the caravan that stated fitting a WDH would decrease the ball weight of the van even further.
I will hold off doing further modifications/'throwing further money possibly to the wind' until I get further advice from you or others.
FYI - I have tackled the caravan distributorship about the low ball weight and mentioned it does not align with the Australian standard (rule of thumb) of being 10-15% of the loaded mass of the caravan. Since doing so the salesman has not corresponded further and gone eerily quiet. When tackling the caravan distributorship, I also sent off my concerns to the caravan manufacturer, River Caravans. It appears they referred the matter back to the salesman concerned.
The van was purchased in late October 2021, and as such is under warranty.
Wondering what your friend with his Ford Everest has found towing.
Cheers, Tim
thalls01 said
06:11 AM Mar 19, 2022
REMARK: Just noticed a typo in relation to the loaded ball weight in my summing-up of original post, as below.
"FUTURE THOUGHTS/INTENTIONS - TO FACTOR IN
I have added a further 17kg to the A-frame of the caravan in a motorised jack since the above car measurements and ball weight of 90kg (SHOULD BE 190KG) was taken." 190kg ball weight was the loaded ball weight of caravan.
Bicyclecamper said
11:16 AM Mar 19, 2022
That vans towball weight is way too light, I suspect if you tried to travel at 100km/phr speed, it would sway like a drunken bull, you may need legal help to sort that van out.
thalls01 said
11:49 AM Mar 19, 2022
Hi Bicycle camper,
You are echoing yobarr's comments regarding the caravan's plated ball weight being too light at 140kgs, and I thank-you for your opinion. 'Yes', I agree with you, with my ball weight as it is, I couldn't hope to do the road limit of 100km/h without a large mishap I expect.
Can I ask what the Tare (plated) ball weight should be for a caravan with an internal measurement of 21 feet before the A-frame? I have had it said to me that it should be 220kgs and above. Would that be correct?
I need further expert advice before I can address this with the dealership that sold me the van.
SA Grey Nomad members, are you aware of a company that can provide expert/definitive advice on (i) the ideal range of plated ball weight at Tare for a 21' van, and (ii) what I can do to increase this ball weight??
If indeed, the plated (Tare) ball weight needs to be increased, it would see the obvious correction to increase ball weight would be to move one of the 2 x 85 Litre drinking water tanks (with low gravity) forward towards the A-bar. These are currently in front of the first axle to the front of the van but inspecting underneath yesterday, thee is room for one/both to be moved further forward. Would you agree?
I hope the dealership and manufacturer concede they got it wrong and are prepared to do the necessary correction/s the van's ball weight without going legal.
It really sucks purchasing a new van to learn the van mass - ball weight ration is poorly matched contributing to sway. It is even more difficult to get accurate, expert advice from suspension companies out there without potentially being taken for a ride.
This is why I have resorted to this forum.
All qualified opinions welcome - Tim
Are We Lost said
12:08 PM Mar 19, 2022
I would not criticise the van setup just yet. Although it is a litlle low, many new vans have towball loads well below that 10% guideline. The Everest is a capable tow vehicle, although 2,800kg is approaching its limits. The rear end could be a little stiffer, but replacing the coils or adding air bags would not be my first choice.
At 2,800kg you have a bit of a balancing act to perform. You want the laden Everest to be heavier than the laden van, but then you run into loading limits. And if you load the van to get higher than 190kg ball weight, you need to check that you are not overloading your Everest rear axle. But with a fairly heavy van for the Everest, I agree it should be more than 190kg.
Towball scales are notoriously inaccurate. When you say you "took before and after measurements of the rear and front of the Ford Everest ..... to arrive at the 190kg ball weight" do you mean with a tape measure, or over a weighbridge? The only satisfactory way is at a weighbridge.
The fact that you measured 47mm drop at the rear is an indicator of weight balance that needs to be corrected. And the reduction to better than half that with a WDH attached shows you are on the right track. But measurements with a tape measure only give an indication. I suggest you load up as if ready for a trip and take it to a weighbridge. There are multiple posts on here about what measurements to take, but ask if you want them repeated.
My suggestion is to work out what you items you can transfer from the van to the Everest. Use the floor behind the front seats for heavier items to help distribute the weight. Then, at the weighbridge, when using the WDH, use your tape measure as a guide to the tension to be set. But the actual setting should be based on how much weight is actually being transferred from the rear wheels back to the front. Hayman Reese say to return 100% of what was lost but I would recommend about 60% as a starting point.
You did not say how much the Everest was laden when you experienced sway. Take it for a drive as set up following the weighbridge and I am sure you will find it handles much better.
Do you have the specs of the Everest? Most people know not to exceed GVM and GCM, but often overlook the rear axle loading, which is easy to exceed when you are towing a van approaching the limit.
Edit: You posted while I was writing my response. Moving water tanks would help (subject to not overloading the Everest rear end) but that means its balance will depend on whether or not the tank is filled. And you should be aiming to travel with empty tanks until you need that water. Always travel with the van as light as you can, adding water near your destination if possible. Is there anything else that is adding weight behind the axles that may be relocated or removed? Spare wheel, tool box, washing machine?
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 19th of March 2022 12:27:13 PM
PeterInSa said
12:47 PM Mar 19, 2022
Different tyre pressures front and rear of the caravan could help
Can I suggest that you list all your ratings for the tug and van here. Include tug axle limit. And go to a weigh bridge and weigh rig as if on a trip, water ranks full or empty to remove some guess work and list the results here. Are you able to isolate a water tank forward of the axles and fill with water?
With such a low TBW, it could be a design fault I.e. van axles too far forward.
'Are We Lost', firstly thanks for the great advice.
I respond for you and others below.
Per "Towball scales are notoriously inaccurate. When you say you "took before and after measurements of the rear and front of the Ford Everest ..... to arrive at the 190kg ball weight" do you mean with a tape measure, or over a weighbridge? The only satisfactory way is at a weighbridge."
I confirm I took the loaded van (2800kg) ball weight with a set of towball scales on level ground. "Yes", I did understand that towball scales can have a reasonable margin of error. I take your point of taking the tug and caravan to a weighbridge to definitively establish the GCM and caravan's ball weight with both vehicles loaded.
In terms of the rear and front measurements taken of the Everest, these were taken when (i) fully unloaded (no caravan hitched), (ii) loaded with caravan hitched (no WDH) and (iii) loaded with WDH and Caravan Hitched. I provide these measurements below for completeness. I advise the car appeared level in the unloaded condition with no sagging of the rear on a flat horizontal plane.
1) EVEREST UNLOADED
FRONT: 920mm REAR: 939mm
2) EVEREST LOADED (Car & Caravan with Payload) and Hitched to Caravan (NO WDH)
FRONT: 937m REAR: 892mm *Ball Weight (download) as measured using Ball Weight Scale: 190kg (Plated Ball Weight of Caravan at Tare: 140kg)
EVEREST FRONT MEASUREMENTS (Before & After) - NO WDH Unloaded: 920mm Loaded, with Caravan Hitched: 937mm (nosing upward).
I.E. A difference of 17mm in height with Caravan hitched.
REAR MEASUREMENT (Before & After) - NO WDH Unloaded: 939mm Loaded, with Caravan Hitched: 892mm
I.E. A difference of 47mm (almost 2 inches lower) with Caravan hitched.
WITH FASTWAY 2E HITCH INSTALLED - ARGUABLY OVER-ADJUSTED (I have dropped spring bars one setting to compensate since). Front: 915mm Rear: 918mm
It would be valuable if someone could point me to the measurements to take at the weighbridge, either a link or pasting the procedure in this post.
In answer to your question per weight in the Everest with payload, I calculated that as 2650kg with our payload placed immediately behind the back seat and secured. The payload consisted of tools, a HD air compressor, ropes, rags, spade and a single tyre recovery track - potentially 50kgs. Per persons in the car, just my wife and me, lol.
Hope this helps you and others to further assess what further corrective actions (if any) I should take.
I will report back on this forum my findings from attending the public weighbridge. As I say, advice of the procedure/measurements to obtain at the weighbridge would be helpful prior.
Cheers, Tim
thalls01 said
01:11 PM Mar 19, 2022
Should have stated I will also check the Ford Everest's rear axle limit as another item to get across.
'Insofar', many thanks - I have checked the load rating of tyres on the tug and caravan and done my calculations to establish their correct pressure taking into account their respective payloads and the ball weight of 190kg with the caravan hitched. They were only out by 1-2 PSI much to my satisfaction. I therefore considered I eliminated the tyres as a factor to the sway.
Cheers, Tim
Are We Lost said
01:21 PM Mar 19, 2022
As suggested by Peter, you may well improve things with tyre pressures on the van. Probably more important in my view are the Everest tyre pressures. You said all tyre pressures were set to specifications. I like to feel the tyres for similar temperatures when stopping after some highway travel. I use it as a rudimentary check for a slow leak, but it will also highlight if one axle or tyre is getting more load than the others. My Ranger rear tyres get warmer than I would like but they are already inflated to the maximum psi as stamped on the tyres.
Also, adding to my earlier post, your comment about the WDH reducing the ball weight does not seem valid. Once connected, you can not measure ball weight. Are you referring to reduced rear axle load on the Everest? That is what a WDH is designed to do. A ball weight of 190kg translates to a rear axle increase of around 150% of that due to leverage (varies depending on the distance the ball is behind the rear axle). So that 190kg means increasing the rear axle load by around 300kg. This change is one of the before/after measurements that needs to be taken at the weighbridge. A WDH should initially be adjusted to transfer about 150kg of that weight back to the front wheels. A small proportion (20kg?) would be added to the van wheels.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 19th of March 2022 01:25:40 PM
thalls01 said
01:22 PM Mar 19, 2022
Other specs relating to my Ford Everest and Caravan - as below for completeness.
2015 FORD EVEREST - TOWING SPECS Max trailer weight (braked): 3000kg (6,613.9 lbs) Unbraked towing capacity: 750kg (1,653.5 lbs) Unladen Weight: 2,348kg (5,176.4 lbs) Kerb Weight: 2,407kg Kerb Weight: Same as Tare Mass, but with a full tank of fuel and without any accessories fitted (bull bars, tow bars, roof racks etc).
GVM: 3,100kg GVM Gross Vehicle Mass the maximum amount of weight the vehicle can apply down to the ground through the tyres. It includes all cargo, the weight of passengers, fuels and oils, tyres and wheels and all components on the vehicle. When towing, the tow ball down weight is also counted as part of the GVM.
Payload: 693kg
GCM: 5,800kg GCM - Gross Combined Mass - the maximum mass set by your tow vehicle's manufacturer and refers to the maximum combined mass of your loaded tow vehicle and your loaded caravan hitched together.
Max tow (braked) + GVM = 6,100kg Difference between GCM and above = 300kg Max vehicle weight with 3,000kg trailer = 2,800kg Max trailer weight at GVM = 2,700kg
Tow Ball Mass (TBM) 10% of trailer weight = 300kg TBM: is tow ball mass which is exerted on the tow ball once your caravan is hitched to your vehicle. The TBM is included in your two vehicles payload.
Max payload with 3,000kg trailer = 393kg Max Payload with 2,700kg trailer (270kg TBM) = 423kg
*ISSUE: The sum of the GVM and max tow weight is 6100 (3100 + 3000). But the GCM is 5,800, i.e. 300kg less. This means that you cannot tow the maximum braked trailer weight with the Everest at GVM. And to reverse the logic, if you want to run your Everest at GVM you cannot tow as much as 3000kg.
So if you want to tow a 3000kg trailer then your Everest must weigh no more than 2800kg. As the unladen weight for the TREND is 2,348kg that leaves 452kg of payload, or 2800 2348 = 452kg.
FORD HEAVY DUTY TOWBAR FITTED Part Number: 192500 Make: Ford Australia Model: Everest Suits Vehicles: 07/2015 to 06/2018 Body Type: SUV Towbar rating: 3000kg Tow Ball Download: 300kg TBD Tow Ball Download represents the amount of pressure that the tow bar can handle. Wheelbase: LWB
2021 RIVER DIAMANTINA CARAVAN Axle: Tandem
Tare Weight: 2,420kg (before potable and grey water (170kg+) & gas is added. Tare Weight - The weight of the empty caravan specified when it is completed by the manufacturer.
According to the Vehicle Standards Bulletin for Building Small Trailers It is the total mass of the trailer when not carrying any load, but when ready for service, unoccupied (if relevant) and with all fluid reservoirs (if fitted) filled to nominal capacity except for fuel, which shall be 10 litres only, and with all standard equipment and any options fitted. The bulletin specifically mentions that fluid reservoirs DO NOT include fresh water and waste water tanks. Even the gas bottles are empty when the Tare is determined.
ATM Aggregate Total Mass or GTM - Gross Total Mass = 3,200kg
*Tare Ball Weight: 140kg
*GTM Ball Weight 190kg
Ball Weight - Caravan manufacturers also specify a maximum permissible ball weight, which is either 10% of the ATM (see below), or a maximum of 350kg whichever is lower.
GROSS COMBINED MASS CALCULATIONS 1) Ford Everest Kerb Wt. with Tow Bar, Roof racks etc. = 2,650kg
2) Diamantina Caravan laden with full tanks of water (170 litres = 170kg) plus payload = 2,420 + 170 (drinking water) = 2,590kg + payload of 150kg = 2740kg *Therefore GCM (car + caravan) = 2,650 + 2,740 = 5,390kg *Max GCM = 5,800kg; Allowance therefore of: 410kg
3) Max TBD - tow ball download - (Ford Everest) = 300kg
If caravan is 2,740kg, then 10% of that is: 274kg (if this is the case, then it is within tolerance) However measured TBD hitched to Everest with full payload is = 190kg
Hope this assists the analysis of my situation - Tim
thalls01 said
01:37 PM Mar 19, 2022
'Are We Lost' - thanks for the below advice.
"Also, adding to my earlier post, your comment about the WDH reducing the ball weight does not seem valid. Once connected, you can not measure ball weight. Are you referring to reduced rear axle load on the Everest? That is what a WDH is designed to do. A ball weight of 190kg translates to a rear axle increase of around 150% of that due to leverage (varies depending on the distance the ball is behind the rear axle). So that 190kg means increasing the rear axle load by around 300kg. This change is one of the before/after measurements that needs to be taken at the weighbridge. A WDH should initially be adjusted to transfer at least 150kg of that weight back to the front wheels. A small proportion (20kg?) would be added to the van wheels."
Just as a point of clarification, if I was to use the max pressure indicated on my Ford Everest tyres that would have me pump them to 80PSI all round. That seems a lot. My calculated ideal PSI for the rears is 43PSI and 41PSI for the FRONT using maths which account for payload, the tryre's rated load and loaded ball weight. I have 17" rims. Out of interest, what do you inflate yours to?
My comment per a WDH reducing the ball weight was a statement provided me by the caravan dealership's salesperson, himself an off-roader with experience. Clearly it was incorrect advice much to my relief having outlaid on a WDH. Thanks for your explanation of how the WDH works to transfer weight to the front wheels. I should have realised that on thinking about it since it is using the rear axle as a fulcrum. Which is why I take your point and that of others, I must check have the vehicle hitched to the caravan weighed at the weighbridge.
A question regarding the before and after measurement at the weighbridge, were you referring to the weight of the car with and without the WDH?? Could you specify a little more ...
Cheers, Tim
Are We Lost said
02:58 PM Mar 19, 2022
Can't spend more time at present, but from a quick skim of your post on the specs, have you considered that the towball weight of 190kg gets included in the Everest weight?
Your stated kerb weight of 2,650kg plus (desired) ball weight of 280kg would come to 2,930kg. 170kg left for passengers and anything else. Right on the Everest GVM limit, if not over.
For tyres, the Ranger specifies 38 front and 44 rear when laden. The factory fitted tyres have max 44 PSI, so I run at those recommended figures. If the tyres had a higher pressure rating I would try a few psi more on the rear. Perhaps the fronts could be reduced a little due to load being taken OFF the front when the van is connected.
As for weighing procedure, I dug up some notes I had.
Often weighbridges are quite busy and you are under pressure to shave some corners to do it faster. Because of rounding errors, and scale increments (usually 20kg), its better to weigh every axle than use calculations. But sometime you may not have that luxury.
Adjust the ball height so the van is level. Drive to the weighbridge fully laden as if going away, including passengers if possible.
Disconnect the van on the weighbridge A. Weigh van including jockey wheel
Reconnect to the tow vehicle.
With WDH fitted but not tensioned B. Weigh vehicle front wheels C. Weigh vehicle all wheels D. Weigh vehicle rear wheels (skip and calculate this if time is short) E. Weigh van wheels alone (subtract E from A to get towball weight)
With WDH tensioned to bring tow vehicle back close to level F. Weigh vehicle front wheels G. Weigh vehicle all wheels H. Weigh vehicle rear wheels (skip and calculate this if time is short) I. Weigh van wheels alone
If you are taking too much time you can skip steps D and H and use calculations instead, but it may reduce accuracy due to those rounding errors.
If you have plenty of time, weigh the jockey wheel alone (adjusted so the coupling is at towing height). Also, if time, weigh the disconnected tow vehicle front and rear.
Armed with these figures you can then compare to all the loading limits and it may point to where further adjustments should be made.
You can get a good accuracy on towball weight by using bathroom scales and a timber beam. Support each end of the beam at the right height with stands or drums, one of which will be on the kitchen scales. Note the initial weight from the beam and stand. Then lower the towball onto the beam at the exact centre of the beam (between the beam resting points). The van must be level (or as it will be when towed. Subtract the initial reading and the towball weight will be double the remainder.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 19th of March 2022 03:02:44 PM
thalls01 said
03:13 PM Mar 19, 2022
Many thanks 'Are we Lost' for the weighbridge procedure and your precious time. That all makes sense. I will now proceed with the weighbridge.
I was aware the 190kg is included in the Everest's weight but will check I did not oversight it in my calculations - thanks.
For the record I found the specs relating to the Everest's front and rear axles, as below.
o Maximum Front Axle Load : 1480kg
o Maximum Rear Axle Load : 1750kg
Surely with a low caravan ball weight and not more than 50kgs of payload in the car I am not over.
I will report back everyone with my findings from the weighbridge attendance - thanks to all concerned - very much appreciated - Tim
thalls01 said
03:16 PM Mar 19, 2022
BTW Everyone - I have nothing attached to the caravan's bumper and only a washing machine I could shift from the rear of the van to increase ball weight.
As everyone has suggested, however, I need to get some accurate weight figures at the weighbridge before doing anything else!
Cheers all - Tim
KevinJ said
03:43 PM Mar 19, 2022
Hi Tim,
I went through a similar exercise a few years ago when looking for a vehicle and van to tow. As a result, I built the spreadsheet I have attached which enabled me to compare vehicles and vans to ensure my combination was all legal. The initial things you need to do is get all the empty weight values from a weighbridge, all the distances between load points using a tape measure and all the ratings for the vehicle and van. The "Tugs and Vans" TAB in the spreadsheet has the headings you need to get values for. I have already created a row for each of your vehicle and van but you will need to complete the missing detail. I would also reconfirm your Tare and Kerb vehicle weights from the weighbridge. Since you already have a towbar and possibly a bull bar, these can be included in your new Tare and Kerb weights as measured on the weighbridge.
Once you have all the initial values, the real fun starts on the "Load calculator" TAB. There are 3 Options. Option 1 assumes the vehicle is fully loaded and you can only play with the van loads, Option 2 assumes the van is fully loaded and you can only play with the vehicle loads and Option 3 allows you to play with both the vehicle and van loads to get the optimum setup.
The "Instructions" TAB on the spreadsheet should give you more info and each heading wihich has a small red triangle also gives advice when clicked on.
I have also attached a Tyre Pressure spreadsheet to assist.
You say that you are going to a weighbridge, great.
Your estimate for total caravan weight is 2,800kg. So for good stability your ball weight without any WDH should be approx 280kg, within the tow bar capacity (300kg). 190kg is just less than 7% of the total van weight. Too light.
Yobarr is correct in saying that a WDH does not reduce tow ball weight. But, even though some forum members do not like using them, a tensioned WDH does distribute weight to the front wheels of the tow vehicle and to the axles of the van, taking some axle load away from the rear axle of the tow vehicle. A WDH does this by using the Torque and leverage on the hitch and towbar into the vehicle's chassis and into the van's Aframe and chassis. The torque and leverage is generated within the system by the WDH tensioning.
There are plenty of posts in this forum with opinions about benefits or otherwise of WDHs. I use a WDH on quality roads (paved or gravel) not for off-road driving and not for tight manoeuvres like van parks or in and out of my residence, as the distortions from these actions create large forces in the systems.
I suggest doing some research and make your own judgement on the value of WDHs.
Are We Lost said
03:47 PM Mar 19, 2022
A 50kg washing machine removed from the back of the van would make a HUGE difference. Not just weight distribution, but to the pendulum effect when sway starts. Also, often that weight will not be included in the TARE.
I forgot to cover your point about 80 psi rating on the tyres. Assume you are loaded to the maximum rating for your rear axle at 1750kg. That is 875kg per tyre. Divide that by the tyre load rating to get the percentage of maximum you are running.
e.g if your tyres are load rated to 1250kg, then 875/1250 = 0.7 (or 70% of maximum rating). Apply the same ratio with max PSI and you get a target of 56psi. Use your own load rating to determine the target psi.
Use that as a starting point and check for 4 psi pressure rise once on the highway. A rudimentary indicator is to feel how the heat compares to the front. Adjust as necessary. You can use the same principle to validate the van tyre pressures.
oldbloke said
07:32 PM Mar 19, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:
A 50kg washing machine removed from the back of the van would make a HUGE difference. Not just weight distribution, but to the pendulum effect when sway starts. Also, often that weight will not be included in the TARE.
I forgot to cover your point about 80 psi rating on the tyres. Assume you are loaded to the maximum rating for your rear axle at 1750kg. That is 875kg per tyre. Divide that by the tyre load rating to get the percentage of maximum you are running.
e.g if your tyres are load rated to 1250kg, then 875/1250 = 0.7 (or 70% of maximum rating). Apply the same ratio with max PSI and you get a target of 56psi. Use your own load rating to determine the target psi.
Use that as a starting point and check for 4 psi pressure rise once on the highway. A rudimentary indicator is to feel how the heat compares to the front. Adjust as necessary. You can use the same principle to validate the van tyre pressures.
Agree 100%. Remove or Move the washing machine
thalls01 said
11:15 PM Mar 19, 2022
Kevin J - thanks so much for your Excel spreadsheets. Fortunately I am IT literate. I have downloaded these and will give them a good lookover before attending the weighbridge tomorrow, Sunday 20/3, and will use them to assist my calculations. Good to know that I am exploring a well-trodden path in terms of making my tug and caravan safe and legal. Mind you, it has been an extended learning curve!!
- I will also see how they can incorporate the weighbridge routines outlined by 'Are We Lost' for which I am also very grateful for his multiple inputs and generous advice.
Watsea - your above advice regarding the caravan loaded ball weight being too light at 7% of the loaded weight - matches my thinking. I may just have to move the washing machine form the rear of the van as 'yobarr' and 'oldbloke' seconded. I will await the weighbridge results before taking this action.
In terms of the WDH, the mechanism at work in shifting weight from the Everest's rear axle to the front and also distributing some of this weight to the van's wheels via the A-frame all makes sense. Thanks for the detailed explanation.
Tomorrow morning Grey Nomads will be a period of reckoning at the local weighbridge at Marion, SA. I will post the raw results and also the results using KevinJ's Excel spreadsheet.
Thanks to all who have contributed thus far. I am blown away by all the generosity of persons on this forum - Tim
Radar said
11:48 PM Mar 19, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:
A 50kg washing machine removed from the back of the van would make a HUGE difference. Not just weight distribution, but to the pendulum effect when sway starts. Also, often that weight will not be included in the TARE.
I forgot to cover your point about 80 psi rating on the tyres. Assume you are loaded to the maximum rating for your rear axle at 1750kg. That is 875kg per tyre. Divide that by the tyre load rating to get the percentage of maximum you are running.
e.g if your tyres are load rated to 1250kg, then 875/1250 = 0.7 (or 70% of maximum rating). Apply the same ratio with max PSI and you get a target of 56psi. Use your own load rating to determine the target psi.
Use that as a starting point and check for 4 psi pressure rise once on the highway. A rudimentary indicator is to feel how the heat compares to the front. Adjust as necessary. You can use the same principle to validate the van tyre pressures.
You would find the net weight of a washing machine in your manual.
Our 2.5 kg washer goes 16kgs, when we got our second hand caravan it was just sitting wrapped in transport wrap, ban spanking new. I need to pull it out of the hole and fit it back in, did not weigh 50kgs, I would never of been able to lift it at that silly angle.
16 kgs for the comman caravan washer.
Are We Lost said
01:11 AM Mar 20, 2022
From the manual for the Dometic washing machine I removed from the rear of my van .....
Re (many new vans have towball loads well below that 10% guideline.) I agree, am wondering if the problem is due to tow in/out on the caravan wheels, or wheels are not facing in the same direction(a few degrees out) or one or both axles are skewed to the left/right or one axle side/wheel is closer to the towball than the other.
Radar said
08:02 AM Mar 20, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:
From the manual for the Dometic washing machine I removed from the rear of my van .....
But as you say, it may well be a lot lighter.
I wonder if that spec weight is when in operation with clothes, water in it. Interesting.
Here is the specs I found, there is a few brands and the specs are very similar.
When we brought our secondhand caravan I was going to take the washing machine out as I was concerned with excessive weight but on lifting it out I realised it was not that heavy not like our home machine.
Model Size Weight Rated wash & spin load Rated Power Input
2.5kg - 041133 410 x 420 x 640mm 16kg 2.5kg (dry clothes) 235W max
3.0kg - 044131 410 x 420 x 740mm 18kg 3.0kg (dry clothes) 1035W max
2.5 & 3kg models
Rated Voltage 240V~ Rated Frequency 50Hz
Maximum water pressure Minimum water pressure
permitted @ water inlet permitted @ water inlet
thalls01 said
08:42 AM Mar 20, 2022
Morning Nomads
I think our washing machine is a Dometic and will investigate further after the weighbridge. I am hoping the 54kgs/thereabouts is with water to a certain level in unit. Surely they would not place 54kgs in the tail end of the caravan!
Overnight I realised I have a spare wheel braced to the rear bumper which can be removed to help the van's ball weight.
PeterinSA - I have begun investigation of the caravan's suspension and placement of wheels. I have dependent leaf spring suspension per pic enclosed here - . As you say if the caravan wheels are out of alignment with the chassis or toeing in or out that could be contributing to the sway with a light ball weight. I will investigate further.
Cheers, Tim
thalls01 said
09:08 AM Mar 20, 2022
KevinJ - I have just compared your tyre spreadsheet with my calculations. Came out spot on. Did wonder how to enter KPA until I noted your conversion table beneath. Very straight forward - thanks. Look forward to using after weighbridge when actual loads calculated.
Are We Lost - will try and obtain all 8 measurements at weighbridge for accuracy.
KevinJ - looked at your Load Spreadsheet Calculator. That actually blew my mind away - so comprehensive and thanks for setting my Everest and Diamantina up. It is clear you are an Advanced Excel operator. I was once and have looked at your formulae - well done. I may have to come back to you with questions but wow there isn't much you have not taken into account - even down to inclusion of the fridge thermometer!! I look forward to inserting the weighbridge figures in the tables but may possibly need to forward spreadsheet back to you for your thoughts/oversight. A post ago I attempted to include a picture of the suspension underside of van. I am not confident I went about the insertion procedure correct. I am guessing the only way to know is to post to test that the link worked.
Cheers all - Tim
KevinJ said
10:07 AM Mar 20, 2022
thalls01 wrote:
KevinJ - I have just compared your tyre spreadsheet with my calculations. Came out spot on. Did wonder how to enter KPA until I noted your conversion table beneath. Very straight forward - thanks. Look forward to using after weighbridge when actual loads calculated.
Are We Lost - will try and obtain all 8 measurements at weighbridge for accuracy.
KevinJ - looked at your Load Spreadsheet Calculator. That actually blew my mind away - so comprehensive and thanks for setting my Everest and Diamantina up. It is clear you are an Advanced Excel operator. I was once and have looked at your formulae - well done. I may have to come back to you with questions but wow there isn't much you have not taken into account - even down to inclusion of the fridge thermometer!! I look forward to inserting the weighbridge figures in the tables but may possibly need to forward spreadsheet back to you for your thoughts/oversight. A post ago I attempted to include a picture of the suspension underside of van. I am not confident I went about the insertion procedure correct. I am guessing the only way to know is to post to test that the link worked.
Cheers all - Tim
Hi Tim,
You're most welcome. The cell formulas you see are just the tip of the iceberg. There is in excess of a thousand lines of VBA code hidden behind which does all the work. There is more to just putting stuff in the vehicle, it's where you put it which constantly changes rear axle weight, hence the need to supply dimensions. Any spreadsheet which does not require dimensions can't accurately calculate rear axle weight though should be ok with ATM, GVM, GCM actuals etc. Feel free to contact me if you have any problems with the spreadsheet. If you or anyone else on the forum would like to learn what power you can get from VBA, I'm happy to get you started. You'd be surprised at how simple it is to learn.
Bobdown said
11:42 AM Mar 20, 2022
Hi Tim,
10% TBW is generally the accepted figure, but you won't run off the road with 8% TBW..........between 8% -12% is okay.
So if you are at 3200kg ATM, ball weight at 8% is around 256kg or 2800 kg ATM is 224kg.
Vans are all loaded differently, with a washing machine down back might be offset by the kitchen cupboards/ hotplates just in front of the axles.
Most load under the bed/tunnel boot to the max which also increases the TBW, and water tanks could be either side of the axles.
My point is you are pulling 3 ton around, so just drive to what feels safe and don't stress the little nuances, as long as the front wheels are on the ground..........
Hi, I write to enlist the advice of others that have experienced caravan sway and worked to eradicate it.
I have owned many caravans previously and have never experienced sway like that in the new van we purchased late in 2021.
I was on the North-South Highway travelling back from McLaren Vale. I entered a rise followed by a small passage downhill before a steeper hill the other side when a Quarry Truck pulling a trailer overtook me. I was doing 85km/h at the time.
I was aware of the pressure wave trucks create as they pass you but were not ready for the mild sway this caused, lasting up to 45 secs - more than anything I had experienced in the past. I kept a cool head and accelerated as I entered the hill in order to pull the caravan into a st. line. Even so, it was unnerving and had me thinking what if it had been a road train on a smaller country road with undulations or even camber. On arrival home I set about corrective actions to overcome the issue.
I researched the vehicle's and caravan's tyre pressures to ensure they were close to that specified. They were; and were not a factor.
The ball weight of the 21' caravan was 140kg at Tare and 190kg loaded, the latter as measured by me using a ball weight scale. I took before and after measurements of the rear and front of the Ford Everest - unloaded and loaded hitched to the fully laden caravan to arrive at the 190kg ball weight. The rear of the Everest dipped by 47mm. The obvious was that my front wheels were light on the ground. I consulted various suspension companies and received mixed opinions - 'fit air bags to your rear springs', 'fit a weight distribution hitch' and 'replace the soft Everest springs with heavier duty springs, air bags and dampers'.
- I discounted the air bags only solution as correcting the sway sufficiently that I had experienced.
- I purchased a Fastway weight distribution hitch (WDH) 'Equalizer 2' with sway control but believe I have potentially reduced the caravan's ball weight by up to 30%, i.e. 133kgs. This is a lot lighter than the AUS standard of the ideal ball weight being between 10-15% of the loaded caravan. My calculations are that the van is 2800kgs loaded and that may be a tad generous (van's ATM is 3200kg). I have also calculated that I have 400kgs allowance compared with the Everest's GCM (gross combined mass = caravan + car both loaded).
Now applying the lesser AUS standard of 10% that would suggest I should have a ball weight of 280kgs when fully loaded and hitched. I have potentially 133kg to 148kgs. This leads to the question below.
Q1. Knowing that I never stow weights forward or aft of the caravan's axles to avoid the 'dumb-bell effect' of the rear and front of van swaying, how critical is it that I increase the van's ball weight?
I have spoken to my local Pedders distributorship this afternoon and new information has emerged. The salesman claimed he had family members that owned Ford Everests with one pulling a Jayco van. He stated the Everest's springs are very soft and ill-tolerant of towing vans - even with low ball weights. He strongly recommended that I fit heavier duty springs, air bags and new dampers. He stated in his brother's instance, that after doing so the Everest required only a little assistance from the air bags and the rear no longer sank by the margin with the Jayco van hitched.
I suspect the Pedders advice is correct since weak coil springs would offer poor resistance to caravan sway, and minor corrective action of the air bags for firmness is in accord with my understanding of the use for which air bags were intended.
I now fear I possibly have outlaid money on an 'E2' hitch for nothing. The Pedders guy seemed to think it could be useful incorporating the hitch as well but it would not have to be tensioned as much. This leads into my next question.
Q2. Have other owners with a Ford Everest had their rear suspension altered as the Pedders guy has proposed for $1700? (A reasonable amount of money but there again you cannot put a price on safety on the road.)
At the end of the day I wonder how necessary it is given I have the WDH & sway control in the E2 hitch.
PLEASE NOTE: With the E2 hitch fitted the Ford Everest rear now dips 21mm with car + van loaded compared with 47mm without hitch. The car and van are level and in the horizontal plane (no foreseeable problems).
Q3. Bottomline: Given the facts shared above, should I proceed with Pedders to have my rear suspension upgraded OR leave my safety in the hands of the E2 WDH and Sway Control hitch?
FUTURE THOUGHTS/INTENTIONS - TO FACTOR IN
I have added a further 17kg to the A-frame of the caravan in a motorised jack since the above car measurements and ball weight of 90kg was taken. I am also to potentially add a vertical bike rack for 2 bikes to the rear of the A-frame above the toolbox. This will no doubt add additional ball weight, in which case the E2 WDH may still play a vital role in reducing ball weight and distributing that weight to the Everest's front wheels.
All thoughts/experiences of fellow members welcome.
Hi Timothy. Because I am presently working 15 hour days I can't give you the assistance you desperately need.,but you are being led up the garden path by the people you have spoken to. Their job is to sell you as much rubbish as they can, as theit income is often commission based. WHEN I get time I will assist, but a WDH DOES NOT change ball weight. EVER. The Everest is a great tow vehicle, and I have afriend who swears by his, but your ball weight is WAY too low for starters. Sorry I can't help at present, but I will get back to you as soon as I can. Just hold fire and don't waste even more money.Good luck!
Thanks for corresponding with your lack of time presently.
Your advice per ball weight being too low on the van is timely and the confirmation for which I am looking. So I gather I am at the other end of the extreme where my ball weight for the van is too light and it is flapping about the rear like a rag in the wind when subjected to compressive air currents from passing trucks.
It was an experienced off-road caravanning enthusiast/salesman where I purchased the caravan that stated fitting a WDH would decrease the ball weight of the van even further.
I will hold off doing further modifications/'throwing further money possibly to the wind' until I get further advice from you or others.
FYI - I have tackled the caravan distributorship about the low ball weight and mentioned it does not align with the Australian standard (rule of thumb) of being 10-15% of the loaded mass of the caravan. Since doing so the salesman has not corresponded further and gone eerily quiet. When tackling the caravan distributorship, I also sent off my concerns to the caravan manufacturer, River Caravans. It appears they referred the matter back to the salesman concerned.
The van was purchased in late October 2021, and as such is under warranty.
Wondering what your friend with his Ford Everest has found towing.
Cheers, Tim
REMARK: Just noticed a typo in relation to the loaded ball weight in my summing-up of original post, as below.
"FUTURE THOUGHTS/INTENTIONS - TO FACTOR IN
I have added a further 17kg to the A-frame of the caravan in a motorised jack since the above car measurements and ball weight of 90kg (SHOULD BE 190KG) was taken." 190kg ball weight was the loaded ball weight of caravan.
Hi Bicycle camper,
You are echoing yobarr's comments regarding the caravan's plated ball weight being too light at 140kgs, and I thank-you for your opinion. 'Yes', I agree with you, with my ball weight as it is, I couldn't hope to do the road limit of 100km/h without a large mishap I expect.
Can I ask what the Tare (plated) ball weight should be for a caravan with an internal measurement of 21 feet before the A-frame? I have had it said to me that it should be 220kgs and above. Would that be correct?
I need further expert advice before I can address this with the dealership that sold me the van.
SA Grey Nomad members, are you aware of a company that can provide expert/definitive advice on (i) the ideal range of plated ball weight at Tare for a 21' van, and (ii) what I can do to increase this ball weight??
If indeed, the plated (Tare) ball weight needs to be increased, it would see the obvious correction to increase ball weight would be to move one of the 2 x 85 Litre drinking water tanks (with low gravity) forward towards the A-bar. These are currently in front of the first axle to the front of the van but inspecting underneath yesterday, thee is room for one/both to be moved further forward. Would you agree?
I hope the dealership and manufacturer concede they got it wrong and are prepared to do the necessary correction/s the van's ball weight without going legal.
It really sucks purchasing a new van to learn the van mass - ball weight ration is poorly matched contributing to sway. It is even more difficult to get accurate, expert advice from suspension companies out there without potentially being taken for a ride.
This is why I have resorted to this forum.
All qualified opinions welcome - Tim
I would not criticise the van setup just yet. Although it is a litlle low, many new vans have towball loads well below that 10% guideline. The Everest is a capable tow vehicle, although 2,800kg is approaching its limits. The rear end could be a little stiffer, but replacing the coils or adding air bags would not be my first choice.
At 2,800kg you have a bit of a balancing act to perform. You want the laden Everest to be heavier than the laden van, but then you run into loading limits. And if you load the van to get higher than 190kg ball weight, you need to check that you are not overloading your Everest rear axle. But with a fairly heavy van for the Everest, I agree it should be more than 190kg.
Towball scales are notoriously inaccurate. When you say you "took before and after measurements of the rear and front of the Ford Everest ..... to arrive at the 190kg ball weight" do you mean with a tape measure, or over a weighbridge? The only satisfactory way is at a weighbridge.
The fact that you measured 47mm drop at the rear is an indicator of weight balance that needs to be corrected. And the reduction to better than half that with a WDH attached shows you are on the right track. But measurements with a tape measure only give an indication. I suggest you load up as if ready for a trip and take it to a weighbridge. There are multiple posts on here about what measurements to take, but ask if you want them repeated.
My suggestion is to work out what you items you can transfer from the van to the Everest. Use the floor behind the front seats for heavier items to help distribute the weight. Then, at the weighbridge, when using the WDH, use your tape measure as a guide to the tension to be set. But the actual setting should be based on how much weight is actually being transferred from the rear wheels back to the front. Hayman Reese say to return 100% of what was lost but I would recommend about 60% as a starting point.
You did not say how much the Everest was laden when you experienced sway. Take it for a drive as set up following the weighbridge and I am sure you will find it handles much better.
Do you have the specs of the Everest? Most people know not to exceed GVM and GCM, but often overlook the rear axle loading, which is easy to exceed when you are towing a van approaching the limit.
Edit: You posted while I was writing my response. Moving water tanks would help (subject to not overloading the Everest rear end) but that means its balance will depend on whether or not the tank is filled. And you should be aiming to travel with empty tanks until you need that water. Always travel with the van as light as you can, adding water near your destination if possible. Is there anything else that is adding weight behind the axles that may be relocated or removed? Spare wheel, tool box, washing machine?
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 19th of March 2022 12:27:13 PM
thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t67078068/tandem-axle-different-tyre-pressures-front-and-rear/
Obviously TBW is very light.
Can I suggest that you list all your ratings for the tug and van here. Include tug axle limit.
And go to a weigh bridge and weigh rig as if on a trip, water ranks full or empty to remove some guess work and list the results here.
Are you able to isolate a water tank forward of the axles and fill with water?
With such a low TBW, it could be a design fault I.e. van axles too far forward.
'Are We Lost', firstly thanks for the great advice.
I respond for you and others below.
Per "Towball scales are notoriously inaccurate. When you say you "took before and after measurements of the rear and front of the Ford Everest ..... to arrive at the 190kg ball weight" do you mean with a tape measure, or over a weighbridge? The only satisfactory way is at a weighbridge."
I confirm I took the loaded van (2800kg) ball weight with a set of towball scales on level ground. "Yes", I did understand that towball scales can have a reasonable margin of error. I take your point of taking the tug and caravan to a weighbridge to definitively establish the GCM and caravan's ball weight with both vehicles loaded.
In terms of the rear and front measurements taken of the Everest, these were taken when (i) fully unloaded (no caravan hitched), (ii) loaded with caravan hitched (no WDH) and (iii) loaded with WDH and Caravan Hitched. I provide these measurements below for completeness. I advise the car appeared level in the unloaded condition with no sagging of the rear on a flat horizontal plane.
1) EVEREST UNLOADED
FRONT: 920mm
REAR: 939mm
2) EVEREST LOADED (Car & Caravan with Payload) and Hitched to Caravan (NO WDH)
FRONT: 937m
REAR: 892mm
*Ball Weight (download) as measured using Ball Weight Scale: 190kg (Plated Ball Weight of Caravan at Tare: 140kg)
EVEREST FRONT MEASUREMENTS (Before & After) - NO WDH
Unloaded: 920mm
Loaded, with Caravan Hitched: 937mm (nosing upward).
I.E. A difference of 17mm in height with Caravan hitched.
REAR MEASUREMENT (Before & After) - NO WDH
Unloaded: 939mm
Loaded, with Caravan Hitched: 892mm
I.E. A difference of 47mm (almost 2 inches lower) with Caravan hitched.
WITH FASTWAY 2E HITCH INSTALLED - ARGUABLY OVER-ADJUSTED (I have dropped spring bars one setting to compensate since).
Front: 915mm
Rear: 918mm
It would be valuable if someone could point me to the measurements to take at the weighbridge, either a link or pasting the procedure in this post.
In answer to your question per weight in the Everest with payload, I calculated that as 2650kg with our payload placed immediately behind the back seat and secured. The payload consisted of tools, a HD air compressor, ropes, rags, spade and a single tyre recovery track - potentially 50kgs. Per persons in the car, just my wife and me, lol.
Hope this helps you and others to further assess what further corrective actions (if any) I should take.
I will report back on this forum my findings from attending the public weighbridge. As I say, advice of the procedure/measurements to obtain at the weighbridge would be helpful prior.
Cheers, Tim
'Insofar', many thanks - I have checked the load rating of tyres on the tug and caravan and done my calculations to establish their correct pressure taking into account their respective payloads and the ball weight of 190kg with the caravan hitched. They were only out by 1-2 PSI much to my satisfaction. I therefore considered I eliminated the tyres as a factor to the sway.
Cheers, Tim
As suggested by Peter, you may well improve things with tyre pressures on the van. Probably more important in my view are the Everest tyre pressures. You said all tyre pressures were set to specifications. I like to feel the tyres for similar temperatures when stopping after some highway travel. I use it as a rudimentary check for a slow leak, but it will also highlight if one axle or tyre is getting more load than the others. My Ranger rear tyres get warmer than I would like but they are already inflated to the maximum psi as stamped on the tyres.
Also, adding to my earlier post, your comment about the WDH reducing the ball weight does not seem valid. Once connected, you can not measure ball weight. Are you referring to reduced rear axle load on the Everest? That is what a WDH is designed to do. A ball weight of 190kg translates to a rear axle increase of around 150% of that due to leverage (varies depending on the distance the ball is behind the rear axle). So that 190kg means increasing the rear axle load by around 300kg. This change is one of the before/after measurements that needs to be taken at the weighbridge. A WDH should initially be adjusted to transfer about 150kg of that weight back to the front wheels. A small proportion (20kg?) would be added to the van wheels.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 19th of March 2022 01:25:40 PM
Other specs relating to my Ford Everest and Caravan - as below for completeness.
2015 FORD EVEREST - TOWING SPECS
Max trailer weight (braked): 3000kg (6,613.9 lbs)
Unbraked towing capacity: 750kg (1,653.5 lbs)
Unladen Weight: 2,348kg (5,176.4 lbs)
Kerb Weight: 2,407kg
Kerb Weight: Same as Tare Mass, but with a full tank of fuel and without any accessories fitted (bull bars, tow bars, roof racks etc).
GVM: 3,100kg
GVM Gross Vehicle Mass the maximum amount of weight the vehicle can apply down to the ground through the tyres. It includes all cargo, the weight of passengers, fuels and oils, tyres and wheels and all components on the vehicle. When towing, the tow ball down weight is also counted as part of the GVM.
Payload: 693kg
GCM: 5,800kg
GCM - Gross Combined Mass - the maximum mass set by your tow vehicle's manufacturer and refers to the maximum combined mass of your loaded tow vehicle and your loaded caravan hitched together.
Max tow (braked) + GVM = 6,100kg
Difference between GCM and above = 300kg
Max vehicle weight with 3,000kg trailer = 2,800kg
Max trailer weight at GVM = 2,700kg
Tow Ball Mass (TBM) 10% of trailer weight = 300kg
TBM: is tow ball mass which is exerted on the tow ball once your caravan is hitched to your vehicle. The TBM is included in your two vehicles payload.
Max payload with 3,000kg trailer = 393kg
Max Payload with 2,700kg trailer (270kg TBM) = 423kg
*ISSUE:
The sum of the GVM and max tow weight is 6100 (3100 + 3000). But the GCM is 5,800, i.e. 300kg less. This means that you cannot tow the maximum braked trailer weight with the Everest at GVM. And to reverse the logic, if you want to run your Everest at GVM you cannot tow as much as 3000kg.
So if you want to tow a 3000kg trailer then your Everest must weigh no more than 2800kg. As the unladen weight for the TREND is 2,348kg that leaves 452kg of payload, or 2800 2348 = 452kg.
FORD HEAVY DUTY TOWBAR FITTED
Part Number: 192500
Make: Ford Australia
Model: Everest
Suits Vehicles: 07/2015 to 06/2018
Body Type: SUV
Towbar rating: 3000kg
Tow Ball Download: 300kg
TBD Tow Ball Download represents the amount of pressure that the tow bar can handle.
Wheelbase: LWB
2021 RIVER DIAMANTINA CARAVAN
Axle: Tandem
Tare Weight: 2,420kg (before potable and grey water (170kg+) & gas is added.
Tare Weight - The weight of the empty caravan specified when it is completed by the manufacturer.
According to the Vehicle Standards Bulletin for Building Small Trailers It is the total mass of the trailer when not carrying any load, but when ready for service, unoccupied (if relevant) and with all fluid reservoirs (if fitted) filled to nominal capacity except for fuel, which shall be 10 litres only, and with all standard equipment and any options fitted. The bulletin specifically mentions that fluid reservoirs DO NOT include fresh water and waste water tanks. Even the gas bottles are empty when the Tare is determined.
ATM Aggregate Total Mass or GTM - Gross Total Mass = 3,200kg
*Tare Ball Weight: 140kg
*GTM Ball Weight 190kg
Ball Weight - Caravan manufacturers also specify a maximum permissible ball weight, which is either 10% of the ATM (see below), or a maximum of 350kg whichever is lower.
GROSS COMBINED MASS CALCULATIONS
1) Ford Everest Kerb Wt. with Tow Bar, Roof racks etc. = 2,650kg
2) Diamantina Caravan laden with full tanks of water (170 litres = 170kg) plus payload = 2,420 + 170 (drinking water) = 2,590kg + payload of 150kg = 2740kg
*Therefore GCM (car + caravan) = 2,650 + 2,740 = 5,390kg
*Max GCM = 5,800kg; Allowance therefore of: 410kg
3) Max TBD - tow ball download - (Ford Everest) = 300kg
If caravan is 2,740kg, then 10% of that is: 274kg (if this is the case, then it is within tolerance)
However measured TBD hitched to Everest with full payload is = 190kg
Hope this assists the analysis of my situation - Tim
"Also, adding to my earlier post, your comment about the WDH reducing the ball weight does not seem valid. Once connected, you can not measure ball weight. Are you referring to reduced rear axle load on the Everest? That is what a WDH is designed to do. A ball weight of 190kg translates to a rear axle increase of around 150% of that due to leverage (varies depending on the distance the ball is behind the rear axle). So that 190kg means increasing the rear axle load by around 300kg. This change is one of the before/after measurements that needs to be taken at the weighbridge. A WDH should initially be adjusted to transfer at least 150kg of that weight back to the front wheels. A small proportion (20kg?) would be added to the van wheels."
Just as a point of clarification, if I was to use the max pressure indicated on my Ford Everest tyres that would have me pump them to 80PSI all round. That seems a lot. My calculated ideal PSI for the rears is 43PSI and 41PSI for the FRONT using maths which account for payload, the tryre's rated load and loaded ball weight. I have 17" rims. Out of interest, what do you inflate yours to?
My comment per a WDH reducing the ball weight was a statement provided me by the caravan dealership's salesperson, himself an off-roader with experience. Clearly it was incorrect advice much to my relief having outlaid on a WDH. Thanks for your explanation of how the WDH works to transfer weight to the front wheels. I should have realised that on thinking about it since it is using the rear axle as a fulcrum. Which is why I take your point and that of others, I must check have the vehicle hitched to the caravan weighed at the weighbridge.
A question regarding the before and after measurement at the weighbridge, were you referring to the weight of the car with and without the WDH?? Could you specify a little more ...
Cheers, Tim
Can't spend more time at present, but from a quick skim of your post on the specs, have you considered that the towball weight of 190kg gets included in the Everest weight?
Your stated kerb weight of 2,650kg plus (desired) ball weight of 280kg would come to 2,930kg. 170kg left for passengers and anything else. Right on the Everest GVM limit, if not over.
For tyres, the Ranger specifies 38 front and 44 rear when laden. The factory fitted tyres have max 44 PSI, so I run at those recommended figures. If the tyres had a higher pressure rating I would try a few psi more on the rear. Perhaps the fronts could be reduced a little due to load being taken OFF the front when the van is connected.
As for weighing procedure, I dug up some notes I had.
Often weighbridges are quite busy and you are under pressure to shave some corners to do it faster. Because of rounding errors, and scale increments (usually 20kg), its better to weigh every axle than use calculations. But sometime you may not have that luxury.
Adjust the ball height so the van is level. Drive to the weighbridge fully laden as if going away, including passengers if possible.
Disconnect the van on the weighbridge
A. Weigh van including jockey wheel
Reconnect to the tow vehicle.
With WDH fitted but not tensioned
B. Weigh vehicle front wheels
C. Weigh vehicle all wheels
D. Weigh vehicle rear wheels (skip and calculate this if time is short)
E. Weigh van wheels alone (subtract E from A to get towball weight)
With WDH tensioned to bring tow vehicle back close to level
F. Weigh vehicle front wheels
G. Weigh vehicle all wheels
H. Weigh vehicle rear wheels (skip and calculate this if time is short)
I. Weigh van wheels alone
If you are taking too much time you can skip steps D and H and use calculations instead, but it may reduce accuracy due to those rounding errors.
If you have plenty of time, weigh the jockey wheel alone (adjusted so the coupling is at towing height). Also, if time, weigh the disconnected tow vehicle front and rear.
Armed with these figures you can then compare to all the loading limits and it may point to where further adjustments should be made.
You can get a good accuracy on towball weight by using bathroom scales and a timber beam. Support each end of the beam at the right height with stands or drums, one of which will be on the kitchen scales. Note the initial weight from the beam and stand. Then lower the towball onto the beam at the exact centre of the beam (between the beam resting points). The van must be level (or as it will be when towed. Subtract the initial reading and the towball weight will be double the remainder.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 19th of March 2022 03:02:44 PM
I was aware the 190kg is included in the Everest's weight but will check I did not oversight it in my calculations - thanks.
For the record I found the specs relating to the Everest's front and rear axles, as below.
o Maximum Front Axle Load : 1480kg
o Maximum Rear Axle Load : 1750kg
Surely with a low caravan ball weight and not more than 50kgs of payload in the car I am not over.
I will report back everyone with my findings from the weighbridge attendance - thanks to all concerned - very much appreciated - Tim
As everyone has suggested, however, I need to get some accurate weight figures at the weighbridge before doing anything else!
Cheers all - Tim
Hi Tim,
I went through a similar exercise a few years ago when looking for a vehicle and van to tow. As a result, I built the spreadsheet I have attached which enabled me to compare vehicles and vans to ensure my combination was all legal. The initial things you need to do is get all the empty weight values from a weighbridge, all the distances between load points using a tape measure and all the ratings for the vehicle and van. The "Tugs and Vans" TAB in the spreadsheet has the headings you need to get values for. I have already created a row for each of your vehicle and van but you will need to complete the missing detail. I would also reconfirm your Tare and Kerb vehicle weights from the weighbridge. Since you already have a towbar and possibly a bull bar, these can be included in your new Tare and Kerb weights as measured on the weighbridge.
Once you have all the initial values, the real fun starts on the "Load calculator" TAB. There are 3 Options. Option 1 assumes the vehicle is fully loaded and you can only play with the van loads, Option 2 assumes the van is fully loaded and you can only play with the vehicle loads and Option 3 allows you to play with both the vehicle and van loads to get the optimum setup.
The "Instructions" TAB on the spreadsheet should give you more info and each heading wihich has a small red triangle also gives advice when clicked on.
I have also attached a Tyre Pressure spreadsheet to assist.
I hope you get some value from this.
You say that you are going to a weighbridge, great.
Your estimate for total caravan weight is 2,800kg. So for good stability your ball weight without any WDH should be approx 280kg, within the tow bar capacity (300kg). 190kg is just less than 7% of the total van weight. Too light.
Yobarr is correct in saying that a WDH does not reduce tow ball weight. But, even though some forum members do not like using them, a tensioned WDH does distribute weight to the front wheels of the tow vehicle and to the axles of the van, taking some axle load away from the rear axle of the tow vehicle. A WDH does this by using the Torque and leverage on the hitch and towbar into the vehicle's chassis and into the van's Aframe and chassis. The torque and leverage is generated within the system by the WDH tensioning.
There are plenty of posts in this forum with opinions about benefits or otherwise of WDHs. I use a WDH on quality roads (paved or gravel) not for off-road driving and not for tight manoeuvres like van parks or in and out of my residence, as the distortions from these actions create large forces in the systems.
I suggest doing some research and make your own judgement on the value of WDHs.
A 50kg washing machine removed from the back of the van would make a HUGE difference. Not just weight distribution, but to the pendulum effect when sway starts. Also, often that weight will not be included in the TARE.
I forgot to cover your point about 80 psi rating on the tyres. Assume you are loaded to the maximum rating for your rear axle at 1750kg. That is 875kg per tyre. Divide that by the tyre load rating to get the percentage of maximum you are running.
e.g if your tyres are load rated to 1250kg, then 875/1250 = 0.7 (or 70% of maximum rating). Apply the same ratio with max PSI and you get a target of 56psi. Use your own load rating to determine the target psi.
Use that as a starting point and check for 4 psi pressure rise once on the highway. A rudimentary indicator is to feel how the heat compares to the front. Adjust as necessary. You can use the same principle to validate the van tyre pressures.
Agree 100%. Remove or Move the washing machine
Kevin J - thanks so much for your Excel spreadsheets. Fortunately I am IT literate. I have downloaded these and will give them a good lookover before attending the weighbridge tomorrow, Sunday 20/3, and will use them to assist my calculations. Good to know that I am exploring a well-trodden path in terms of making my tug and caravan safe and legal. Mind you, it has been an extended learning curve!!
- I will also see how they can incorporate the weighbridge routines outlined by 'Are We Lost' for which I am also very grateful for his multiple inputs and generous advice.
Watsea - your above advice regarding the caravan loaded ball weight being too light at 7% of the loaded weight - matches my thinking. I may just have to move the washing machine form the rear of the van as 'yobarr' and 'oldbloke' seconded. I will await the weighbridge results before taking this action.
In terms of the WDH, the mechanism at work in shifting weight from the Everest's rear axle to the front and also distributing some of this weight to the van's wheels via the A-frame all makes sense. Thanks for the detailed explanation.
Tomorrow morning Grey Nomads will be a period of reckoning at the local weighbridge at Marion, SA. I will post the raw results and also the results using KevinJ's Excel spreadsheet.
Thanks to all who have contributed thus far. I am blown away by all the generosity of persons on this forum - Tim
You would find the net weight of a washing machine in your manual.
Our 2.5 kg washer goes 16kgs, when we got our second hand caravan it was just sitting wrapped in transport wrap, ban spanking new. I need to pull it out of the hole and fit it back in, did not weigh 50kgs, I would never of been able to lift it at that silly angle.
16 kgs for the comman caravan washer.
From the manual for the Dometic washing machine I removed from the rear of my van .....
But as you say, it may well be a lot lighter.
I wonder if that spec weight is when in operation with clothes, water in it. Interesting.
Here is the specs I found, there is a few brands and the specs are very similar.
When we brought our secondhand caravan I was going to take the washing machine out as I was concerned with excessive weight but on lifting it out I realised it was not that heavy not like our home machine.
Model Size Weight Rated wash & spin load Rated Power Input
2.5kg - 041133 410 x 420 x 640mm 16kg 2.5kg (dry clothes) 235W max
3.0kg - 044131 410 x 420 x 740mm 18kg 3.0kg (dry clothes) 1035W max
2.5 & 3kg models
Rated Voltage 240V~ Rated Frequency 50Hz
Maximum water pressure Minimum water pressure
permitted @ water inlet permitted @ water inlet
Morning Nomads
I think our washing machine is a Dometic and will investigate further after the weighbridge. I am hoping the 54kgs/thereabouts is with water to a certain level in unit. Surely they would not place 54kgs in the tail end of the caravan!
Overnight I realised I have a spare wheel braced to the rear bumper which can be removed to help the van's ball weight.
PeterinSA - I have begun investigation of the caravan's suspension and placement of wheels. I have dependent leaf spring suspension per pic enclosed here -
Cheers, Tim
Are We Lost - will try and obtain all 8 measurements at weighbridge for accuracy.
KevinJ - looked at your Load Spreadsheet Calculator. That actually blew my mind away - so comprehensive and thanks for setting my Everest and Diamantina up. It is clear you are an Advanced Excel operator. I was once and have looked at your formulae - well done. I may have to come back to you with questions but wow there isn't much you have not taken into account - even down to inclusion of the fridge thermometer!! I look forward to inserting the weighbridge figures in the tables but may possibly need to forward spreadsheet back to you for your thoughts/oversight. A post ago I attempted to include a picture of the suspension underside of van. I am not confident I went about the insertion procedure correct. I am guessing the only way to know is to post to test that the link worked.
Cheers all - Tim
Hi Tim,
You're most welcome. The cell formulas you see are just the tip of the iceberg. There is in excess of a thousand lines of VBA code hidden behind which does all the work. There is more to just putting stuff in the vehicle, it's where you put it which constantly changes rear axle weight, hence the need to supply dimensions. Any spreadsheet which does not require dimensions can't accurately calculate rear axle weight though should be ok with ATM, GVM, GCM actuals etc. Feel free to contact me if you have any problems with the spreadsheet. If you or anyone else on the forum would like to learn what power you can get from VBA, I'm happy to get you started. You'd be surprised at how simple it is to learn.
Hi Tim,
10% TBW is generally the accepted figure, but you won't run off the road with 8% TBW..........between 8% -12% is okay.
So if you are at 3200kg ATM, ball weight at 8% is around 256kg or 2800 kg ATM is 224kg.
Vans are all loaded differently, with a washing machine down back might be offset by the kitchen cupboards/ hotplates just in front of the axles.
Most load under the bed/tunnel boot to the max which also increases the TBW, and water tanks could be either side of the axles.
My point is you are pulling 3 ton around, so just drive to what feels safe and don't stress the little nuances, as long as the front wheels are on the ground..........
Cheers Bob