The sinking of the ship Felicity Ace raises some serious questions about EV distribution from manufacturer to sales points. What effect will that have on shipping insurance given the one billion estimated cost of the ship and cargo sinking. How to devise fire suppression systems to control runaway thermal events, given that the standard response now is to stand back and wait for the fire to burn itself out. The greens and most left wing media seem curiously silent.
Whenarewethere said
11:22 AM Mar 10, 2022
BMW another hugh recall due to fire risk.
Rob Driver said
11:36 AM Mar 10, 2022
Well how good is it that now Wikipedia articles now reference the old word for FIRE as, wait for it, THERMAL RUNAWAY.
How clever is that in there article on EV fires they dont have a fire anymorewho are they kidding.
WAWT,
I thinks the BMW recall is for a wiring fault which may cause a THERMAL RUNAWAY.
There are reports on the nett referring to the details.
dabbler said
02:00 PM Mar 10, 2022
There was no mention of EVs in the BMW recall I read. An ICE specific component is faulty and BMW are blaming their parts supplier (which makes you hope it doesn't turn in another Takata). Recalls cover models produced over a period of 17 years and it's the third recall in the last 5 years. However it's not transport related as the ICE needs to be operating.
Buzz Lightbulb said
10:27 AM Mar 11, 2022
dabbler wrote:
There was no mention of EVs in the BMW recall I read. An ICE specific component is faulty and BMW are blaming their parts supplier (which makes you hope it doesn't turn in another Takata). Recalls cover models produced over a period of 17 years and it's the third recall in the last 5 years. However it's not transport related as the ICE needs to be operating.
Yes, that's what I read but there are some people who will just jump onto anything and turn it into their pet hate. Can anything those people say be trusted?
Rob Driver said
12:14 PM Mar 11, 2022
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
dabbler wrote:
There was no mention of EVs in the BMW recall I read. An ICE specific component is faulty and BMW are blaming their parts supplier (which makes you hope it doesn't turn in another Takata). Recalls cover models produced over a period of 17 years and it's the third recall in the last 5 years. However it's not transport related as the ICE needs to be operating.
Yes, that's what I read but there are some people who will just jump onto anything and turn it into their pet hate. Can anything those people say be trusted?
Buzz my dear friend,
No one on here in this topic made reference to the BMW recall being EV related.
It appears that maybe WAWT may have been baiting or had just made an inference.
My reading of the fault is that it is in the wiring which may include older models as well as the vehicles with newer technology.
-- Edited by Rob Driver on Friday 11th of March 2022 12:15:38 PM
-- Edited by Webmaster on Saturday 12th of March 2022 03:21:09 PM
dorian said
05:45 PM Mar 11, 2022
Rob Driver wrote:
Well how good is it that now Wikipedia articles now reference the old word for FIRE as, wait for it, THERMAL RUNAWAY.
How clever is that in there article on EV fires they dont have a fire anymorewho are they kidding.
Thermal runaway and fires are two different things. Thermal runaway may be the cause of a fire, but it isn't a fire in itself.
"Thermal runaway describes a process that is accelerated by increased temperature, in turn releasing energy that further increases temperature. Thermal runaway occurs in situations where an increase in temperature changes the conditions in a way that causes a further increase in temperature, often leading to a destructive result. It is a kind of uncontrolled positive feedback."
Basically, there will be accidents where a lithium battery fire is the result of thermal runaway. That's all they are saying.
Rob Driver said
10:13 AM Mar 12, 2022
dorian wrote:
Rob Driver wrote:
Well how good is it that now Wikipedia articles now reference the old word for FIRE as, wait for it, THERMAL RUNAWAY.
How clever is that in there article on EV fires they dont have a fire anymorewho are they kidding.
Thermal runaway and fires are two different things. Thermal runaway may be the cause of a fire, but it isn't a fire in itself.
"Thermal runaway describes a process that is accelerated by increased temperature, in turn releasing energy that further increases temperature. Thermal runaway occurs in situations where an increase in temperature changes the conditions in a way that causes a further increase in temperature, often leading to a destructive result. It is a kind of uncontrolled positive feedback."
Basically, there will be accidents where a lithium battery fire is the result of thermal runaway. That's all they are saying.
Hi dorian,
I admire you need for totally analysing comments.
In my defence, if you are indicating that I am wrong then I need to explain.
I gained the term * thermal runaway* from a googled document which directly referred to a quotation by BMW in advising what may happen to owners vehicles.
To replace the word FIRE with this quote below is ridiculous.
Thermal runaway describes a process that is accelerated by increased temperature, in turn releasing energy that further increases temperature. Thermal runaway occurs in situations where an increase in temperature changes the conditions in a way that causes a further increase in temperature, often leading to a destructive result. It is a kind of uncontrolled positive feedback."
I googled the term after I read it in the BMW quotation with regard to their potential possibility of their vehicles catching fire. When reading the statement, it appeared to me at least that BMW were deliberately avoiding using the word FIRE That is how I came up with the Wikipedia definition. A simple matter of curiosity.
I think I do need to say once again, that no one said that the BMW recall had anything to do with a lithium battery
If this nonsense of terminology is an indication of what is to come then it is not only climate or lithium batteries or wind generators failing en mass, that will be our downfall.
The word is FIRE
Just to indicate how stupid this is we can assume or pretend (for Wikipedia and Dorian) that there are two BMW owners side by side with their vehicles destroyed. One vehicle was burnt to the ground and the other was burnt out under the bonnet.
Both vehicles were burned because of the faulty wiring at the source at the EGR valve.
The owner with the partially burned car says to the other owner;
*Gee mate I was lucky, I only had a thermal runaway, I am glad I didnt have a fire*
-- Edited by Rob Driver on Saturday 12th of March 2022 10:25:37 AM
peter67 said
11:42 AM Mar 12, 2022
I see John Cadogan has just released a very informative vid " Responding To Thermal Runaway Events " which made interesting viewing re safety mechanisms.
dorian said
03:46 AM Mar 13, 2022
Rob, let's say a petrol powered car burns to the ground, as happened recently on Sydney Harbour bridge. If the cause was a ruptured fuel tank leaking fuel onto a hot exhaust pipe, do you expect that anyone would be stupid enough to say "it's not a fire, it's a fuel leak"? Now apply the same reasoning to the EV case. Nobody is denying that lithium batteries catch fire, but nobody with any intelligence would say "it's not a fire, it's thermal runaway". Thermal runaway was the cause of the fire, just as the fuel leak caused the fire in the previous example.
Please show us the Wikipedia article that was the basis for your rant:
"Well how good is it that now Wikipedia articles now reference the old word for FIRE as, wait for it, THERMAL RUNAWAY.
How clever is that in there article on EV fires they dont have a fire anymore who are they kidding."
By the way, here is an example of thermal runaway:
When two diodes are connected in parallel, one diode heats up more than the other, causing its forward voltage to drop. This then results in the diode drawing more current, which causes it to heat up even more, causing its forward voltage to drop even more, causing it to draw even more current, and so on. In the end one diode carries nearly all the current, while the other diode does very little work at all.
Edit:
If this is the Wikipedia article you refer to, then I see nothing which substantiates your misguided rant:
-- Edited by dorian on Sunday 13th of March 2022 04:52:48 AM
Rob Driver said
08:37 AM Mar 13, 2022
Dorian,
At what point does a fire start.
Here is the link to Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_runaway
This is fruitless Dorian, FFS no one said a lithium battery was on fire, smouldering or even out getting a sun tan.
My suggestion and thoughts behind the use of the term *thermal runaway* in a document released by a manufacturer of a car, a washing machine, a fridge, or any fu%ken piece of equipment that catches fire when it is not supposed to is just a cop out so as not to admit the bloody thing catches fire.
As usual you have overthought a general comment, in this case on my distaste for any manufacturer using this terminology when directing advice to any consumer on an obvious and dangerous condition whereby their product catches fire.
It appears to be the common trend is to provide a *snow job* with unnecessary *glossy* words to describe a basic condition.
My point is, In the case of some BMW models, they simply catch fire.
This whole argument is because when a manufacturer stuffs up and their product catches fire they then run out and employ *legal eagles* to prepare quotations such as this to cover their arses.
When the owner of the said model that catches fire experiences his loss I guess he feels fully compensated knowing that his car suffered *thermal runaway* and the fact that his car caught fire in his home garage and burnt his house to the ground has now been fully explained by some bull**** terminology.
When something burns, in layman terms, it is called a fire
-- Edited by Webmaster on Sunday 13th of March 2022 11:12:34 AM
dorian said
09:20 AM Mar 13, 2022
Rob, you still don't get it. No manufacturer, no Wikipedian, nobody on this planet, is denying that a fire is a fire. Thermal runaway is the cause of some fires. That's all there is to it.
Clarky 1 said
09:25 AM Mar 13, 2022
Funny, this debate is still going on.
I read it yesterday and thought I would ask my wife and then my 11yo grandson what they thought thermal runaway meant. My wife just shrugged her shoulders and then said,; what do you mean.
My grandson came into the room and when I asked him he said ; I dont know Pa, what is it.
Some might argue that they arent necessarily technically minded so would not be able to deduct what the term meant.
From what I see of the above rants is that is what RD was getting at is that the use of less than clear terminology is not conducive to every person understanding the reason in this case, for the recall on the BMW.
Rob Driver raised a point worth more thought.
Using my wife once again in an example. Lets assume she owns an effected BMW and she gets a letter from them saying that there is a recall as their car might suffer a thermal runaway She lives by herself and has little contact with others. Does she park her car in her UMR garage that night or does she know the vehicle may burst into flame overnight and burn her and her house to the ground.
Unfortunately we live in a world where this rubbish is becoming rampant and what is worse is that we as a society accept it.
The old chestnut is, if it doesnt pass the pub test or an 11yo child has difficulty with its reason then we really should be asking ourselves do we need this overuse of our language, particularly in warning and legal conversation.
Dorian, the above example with my wife and her car is imaginary, there will be no wiki link or web page that we can refer to.
Now to reply to the OP.
I agree peter67 the greens dont want to hear this and our media wont comment as it doesnt suit their current agenda.
Rob Driver said
09:33 AM Mar 13, 2022
dorian wrote:
Rob, you still don't get it. No manufacturer, no Wikipedian, nobody on this planet, is denying that a fire is a fire. Thermal runaway is the cause of some fires. That's all there is to it.
No Dorian,
you missed the point.
My suggestion is that using that term in a recall is not informing the consumer correctly.
-- Edited by Webmaster on Sunday 13th of March 2022 10:13:39 AM
Clarky 1 said
09:57 AM Mar 13, 2022
Rob Driver wrote:
dorian wrote:
Rob, you still don't get it. No manufacturer, no Wikipedian, nobody on this planet, is denying that a fire is a fire. Thermal runaway is the cause of some fires. That's all there is to it.
No Dorian,
you missed the point.
My suggestion is that using that term in a recall is not informing the consumer correctly.
Everyone knows the word fire, only some of us have followed your crap to realise that we need two diodes facing north on a windy day while wearing red undies to have a thermal runaway when the larger percentage of us may more easily understand the term as a fire.
You need to buy a car and caravan and get out more.
I often wondered if he was actually a nomad or a caravanner.
dorian said
10:20 AM Mar 13, 2022
Let's all be grateful that Wikipedians don't write articles that are constrained by the vocabulary and knowledge of a 10-year-old child. Rob, if you are going to bash Wikipedia, then at least try to understand the subject matter. You appear to have skimmed a technical article and noticed a reference to "thermal runaway". You then created a straw man on the basis of your misunderstanding, and then started bashing it.
They all mention "fire". There is no mention of "thermal runaway". I guess BMW is in fact cognisant of its intended audience.
Rob, simply speaking, you have introduced some technobabble of your own design, and made unfounded assertions which have no support in any source I can find on the Internet.
Edit: I searched Australia's product recall web site.
I found only one reference to thermal runaway, and it was for a scooter (not made by BMW). It's written in words that even the most intellectually challenged person can understand.
"Low quality lithium-ion batteries are prone to excessive heat causing a fire. This is caused by thermal runaway which is a complex combination of chemical reactions and/or electrical shorting in the battery cell.
There is a risk of death or serious injury from fires caused by self-balancing scooters with low quality lithium-ion batteries igniting while or after being charged."
-- Edited by dorian on Sunday 13th of March 2022 10:36:56 AM
Rob Driver said
10:48 AM Mar 13, 2022
Dorian said
Let's all be grateful that Wikipedians don't write articles that are constrained by the vocabulary and knowledge of a 10-year-old child. Rob, if you are going to bash Wikipedia, then at least try to understand the subject matter.
First up Dorian, I made no mention of a 10 year old or any child for that matter and I did not bash Wikipedia.
My point which you conveniently want to overlook is the fact that the MANUFACTURER used the terminology.
The reasons for this are obvious
I said this above.
you missed the point.
My suggestion is that using that term in a recall is not informing the consumer correctly.
What I am saying is
Unfortunately many consumers dont have this advantage of the ability or the time to analyse every word nor do they have the understanding of these *trendy* terminologies.
For the record I havent bothered to click on all those links you so kindly provided so
I offer nothing more than I have already said and that is that there is no need for a manufacturer to use confusing terminology that may under certain circumstances, be misunderstood or misinterpreted by a consumer.
-- Edited by Webmaster on Sunday 13th of March 2022 11:13:17 AM
boab said
12:10 PM Mar 13, 2022
I am very pleased this post was written as i had no idea what a thermal runaway was i had never heard the term used before and because it is 60 yrs since i left school at age 15 i am no where near as educated as Dorian obviously is, i would of just assumed the term thermal runaway was something to do with hang gliding. silly me
Ivan 01 said
01:33 PM Mar 13, 2022
boab wrote:
I am very pleased this post was written as i had no idea what a thermal runaway was i had never heard the term used before and because it is 60 yrs since i left school at age 15 i am no where near as educated as Dorian obviously is, i would of just assumed the term thermal runaway was something to do with hang gliding. silly me
This is a very valid point.
Back in about 2012 my son was using industry generated contracts in his business. At about that same time he was advised by his company insurer that he needed to adopt their new contract paperwork in its entirety because the existing contracts in use did not comply with projected standards which will simplify wording and even right down to the size of the font type used.
He was fortunate that apart from obtaining new forms and computer generated contracts and reports he had nothing more to do.
At the time many insurance companies were finding that they were actually losing some court cases due to the client claiming that they did not understand some of the trade based terminology the paperwork contained.
Once an insurance company loses money in a court challenge they are generally quick to react.
In 2016 or thereabouts, you dont need to quote me dorian, the ACCC introduced new policies and some of these changes enforced the need for an average person to be able to understand the contract or document. I think that their words mentioned in the description was Layman or Laymen or similar. Maybe this was the term the insurance company used in the understanding of the new requirements of the ACCC.
As a result a simple word can be cause for a claim against another based on this new procedure.
To reverse this for the exercise of this topic the term thermal runaway could easily be challenged unless clarified and the reference could be understood by the Layman. It has been shown on here that this terminology is not easy to interpret for some.
A bloke on a computer and 4 hours of searching and claiming how good a quote on Wiki is will not protect the manufacturer should someone contest it.
I will admit I had never come across the term thermal runaway until now and more to the point about the discussion on this topic unless Dorian is a engineer or at the least trade based then he may very well not have heard of it either until his google finger became involved.
Any documents using words which are confusing and favour the manufacturer over the consumer are not permitted or at the very least discouraged. The ACCC does not view and approve every contract and neither they should unless there exists a doubt by a client.
The use of this and similar confusing wording may very well come back to bite a manufacturer should the matter be presented in front of an adjudicator who agrees that there could exist a lack of understanding of the wording.
I need to add that the dates and quotes above are all based on my memory and with a conversation with my son prior to me posting, so Wiki or any other part of google was not quoted or its use even suggested.
Back to the topic,
Nah! The OP has it spot on, Not worth the effort.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Sunday 13th of March 2022 01:39:32 PM
DeBe said
02:54 PM Mar 13, 2022
If your interests is Electronics then Thermal Runaway is a whole diferent meaning. Doesnt necesarily mean fire, but usualy means destroyed elactronics.
Buzz Lightbulb said
01:06 PM Mar 14, 2022
boab wrote:
I am very pleased this post was written as i had no idea what a thermal runaway was i had never heard the term used before and because it is 60 yrs since i left school at age 15 i am no where near as educated as Dorian obviously is, i would of just assumed the term thermal runaway was something to do with hang gliding. silly me
I learnt it in high school. I think it was thermalite that was used to demonstrate the concept. It burnt really hot.
I also think that there's a lot of argument about semantics in this thread.
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 14th of March 2022 01:07:32 PM
The sinking of the ship Felicity Ace raises some serious questions about EV distribution from manufacturer to sales points. What effect will that have on shipping insurance given the one billion estimated cost of the ship and cargo sinking. How to devise fire suppression systems to control runaway thermal events, given that the standard response now is to stand back and wait for the fire to burn itself out. The greens and most left wing media seem curiously silent.
BMW another hugh recall due to fire risk.
How clever is that in there article on EV fires they dont have a fire anymorewho are they kidding.
WAWT,
I thinks the BMW recall is for a wiring fault which may cause a THERMAL RUNAWAY.
There are reports on the nett referring to the details.
Yes, that's what I read but there are some people who will just jump onto anything and turn it into their pet hate.
Can anything those people say be trusted?
Buzz my dear friend,
No one on here in this topic made reference to the BMW recall being EV related.
It appears that maybe WAWT may have been baiting or had just made an inference.
My reading of the fault is that it is in the wiring which may include older models as well as the vehicles with newer technology.
-- Edited by Rob Driver on Friday 11th of March 2022 12:15:38 PM
-- Edited by Webmaster on Saturday 12th of March 2022 03:21:09 PM
Thermal runaway and fires are two different things. Thermal runaway may be the cause of a fire, but it isn't a fire in itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_runaway
"Thermal runaway describes a process that is accelerated by increased temperature, in turn releasing energy that further increases temperature. Thermal runaway occurs in situations where an increase in temperature changes the conditions in a way that causes a further increase in temperature, often leading to a destructive result. It is a kind of uncontrolled positive feedback."
Basically, there will be accidents where a lithium battery fire is the result of thermal runaway. That's all they are saying.
Hi dorian,
I admire you need for totally analysing comments.
In my defence, if you are indicating that I am wrong then I need to explain.
I gained the term * thermal runaway* from a googled document which directly referred to a quotation by BMW in advising what may happen to owners vehicles.
To replace the word FIRE with this quote below is ridiculous.
Thermal runaway describes a process that is accelerated by increased temperature, in turn releasing energy that further increases temperature. Thermal runaway occurs in situations where an increase in temperature changes the conditions in a way that causes a further increase in temperature, often leading to a destructive result. It is a kind of uncontrolled positive feedback."
I googled the term after I read it in the BMW quotation with regard to their potential possibility of their vehicles catching fire. When reading the statement, it appeared to me at least that BMW were deliberately avoiding using the word FIRE
That is how I came up with the Wikipedia definition.
A simple matter of curiosity.
I think I do need to say once again, that no one said that the BMW recall had anything to do with a lithium battery
If this nonsense of terminology is an indication of what is to come then it is not only climate or lithium batteries or wind generators failing en mass, that will be our downfall.
The word is FIRE
Just to indicate how stupid this is we can assume or pretend (for Wikipedia and Dorian) that there are two BMW owners side by side with their vehicles destroyed. One vehicle was burnt to the ground and the other was burnt out under the bonnet.
Both vehicles were burned because of the faulty wiring at the source at the EGR valve.
The owner with the partially burned car says to the other owner;
*Gee mate I was lucky, I only had a thermal runaway, I am glad I didnt have a fire*
-- Edited by Rob Driver on Saturday 12th of March 2022 10:25:37 AM
Rob, let's say a petrol powered car burns to the ground, as happened recently on Sydney Harbour bridge. If the cause was a ruptured fuel tank leaking fuel onto a hot exhaust pipe, do you expect that anyone would be stupid enough to say "it's not a fire, it's a fuel leak"? Now apply the same reasoning to the EV case. Nobody is denying that lithium batteries catch fire, but nobody with any intelligence would say "it's not a fire, it's thermal runaway". Thermal runaway was the cause of the fire, just as the fuel leak caused the fire in the previous example.
Please show us the Wikipedia article that was the basis for your rant:
"Well how good is it that now Wikipedia articles now reference the old word for FIRE as, wait for it, THERMAL RUNAWAY.
How clever is that in there article on EV fires they dont have a fire anymore who are they kidding."
By the way, here is an example of thermal runaway:
https://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t65098309/blocking-diodes-in-parallel/
When two diodes are connected in parallel, one diode heats up more than the other, causing its forward voltage to drop. This then results in the diode drawing more current, which causes it to heat up even more, causing its forward voltage to drop even more, causing it to draw even more current, and so on. In the end one diode carries nearly all the current, while the other diode does very little work at all.
Edit:
If this is the Wikipedia article you refer to, then I see nothing which substantiates your misguided rant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents
-- Edited by dorian on Sunday 13th of March 2022 04:52:48 AM
Dorian,
At what point does a fire start.
Here is the link to Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_runaway
This is fruitless Dorian, FFS no one said a lithium battery was on fire, smouldering or even out getting a sun tan.
My suggestion and thoughts behind the use of the term *thermal runaway* in a document released by a manufacturer of a car, a washing machine, a fridge, or any fu%ken piece of equipment that catches fire when it is not supposed to is just a cop out so as not to admit the bloody thing catches fire.
As usual you have overthought a general comment, in this case on my distaste for any manufacturer using this terminology when directing advice to any consumer on an obvious and dangerous condition whereby their product catches fire.
It appears to be the common trend is to provide a *snow job* with unnecessary *glossy* words to describe a basic condition.
My point is,
In the case of some BMW models, they simply catch fire.
This whole argument is because when a manufacturer stuffs up and their product catches fire they then run out and employ *legal eagles* to prepare quotations such as this to cover their arses.
When the owner of the said model that catches fire experiences his loss I guess he feels fully compensated knowing that his car suffered *thermal runaway* and the fact that his car caught fire in his home garage and burnt his house to the ground has now been fully explained by some bull**** terminology.
When something burns, in layman terms, it is called a fire
-- Edited by Webmaster on Sunday 13th of March 2022 11:12:34 AM
Funny, this debate is still going on.
I read it yesterday and thought I would ask my wife and then my 11yo grandson what they thought thermal runaway meant.
My wife just shrugged her shoulders and then said,; what do you mean.
My grandson came into the room and when I asked him he said ; I dont know Pa, what is it.
Some might argue that they arent necessarily technically minded so would not be able to deduct what the term meant.
From what I see of the above rants is that is what RD was getting at is that the use of less than clear terminology is not conducive to every person understanding the reason in this case, for the recall on the BMW.
Rob Driver raised a point worth more thought.
Using my wife once again in an example. Lets assume she owns an effected BMW and she gets a letter from them saying that there is a recall as their car might suffer a thermal runaway
She lives by herself and has little contact with others.
Does she park her car in her UMR garage that night or does she know the vehicle may burst into flame overnight and burn her and her house to the ground.
Unfortunately we live in a world where this rubbish is becoming rampant and what is worse is that we as a society accept it.
The old chestnut is, if it doesnt pass the pub test or an 11yo child has difficulty with its reason then we really should be asking ourselves do we need this overuse of our language, particularly in warning and legal conversation.
Dorian, the above example with my wife and her car is imaginary, there will be no wiki link or web page that we can refer to.
Now to reply to the OP.
I agree peter67 the greens dont want to hear this and our media wont comment as it doesnt suit their current agenda.
No Dorian,
you missed the point.
My suggestion is that using that term in a recall is not informing the consumer correctly.
-- Edited by Webmaster on Sunday 13th of March 2022 10:13:39 AM
I often wondered if he was actually a nomad or a caravanner.
Let's all be grateful that Wikipedians don't write articles that are constrained by the vocabulary and knowledge of a 10-year-old child. Rob, if you are going to bash Wikipedia, then at least try to understand the subject matter. You appear to have skimmed a technical article and noticed a reference to "thermal runaway". You then created a straw man on the basis of your misunderstanding, and then started bashing it.
I found these BMW product recalls:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2017/RCRIT-17V683-5875.pdf
https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recalls/bmw-australia-ltd-%E2%80%94-mini-hv-wallbox-gen-ii-with-charging-socket-electric-vehicle-charger
https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recalls/venture-bmw-pty-ltd%E2%80%94adventure-products-sca-and-venture-bmw-plastics-caps
https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recalls/valeo-service%E2%80%94engine-cooling-fans
They all mention "fire". There is no mention of "thermal runaway". I guess BMW is in fact cognisant of its intended audience.
Rob, simply speaking, you have introduced some technobabble of your own design, and made unfounded assertions which have no support in any source I can find on the Internet.
Edit: I searched Australia's product recall web site.
https://www.productsafety.gov.au/search?query=thermal+runaway&sort_by=search_api_relevance
I found only one reference to thermal runaway, and it was for a scooter (not made by BMW). It's written in words that even the most intellectually challenged person can understand.
https://www.productsafety.gov.au/products/transport/personal-transport/self-balancing-scooters
"Low quality lithium-ion batteries are prone to excessive heat causing a fire. This is caused by thermal runaway which is a complex combination of chemical reactions and/or electrical shorting in the battery cell.
There is a risk of death or serious injury from fires caused by self-balancing scooters with low quality lithium-ion batteries igniting while or after being charged."
-- Edited by dorian on Sunday 13th of March 2022 10:36:56 AM
Dorian said
Let's all be grateful that Wikipedians don't write articles that are constrained by the vocabulary and knowledge of a 10-year-old child. Rob, if you are going to bash Wikipedia, then at least try to understand the subject matter.
First up Dorian, I made no mention of a 10 year old or any child for that matter and I did not bash Wikipedia.
My point which you conveniently want to overlook is the fact that the MANUFACTURER used the terminology.
The reasons for this are obvious
I said this above.
you missed the point.
My suggestion is that using that term in a recall is not informing the consumer correctly.
What I am saying is
Unfortunately many consumers dont have this advantage of the ability or the time to analyse every word nor do they have the understanding of these *trendy* terminologies.
For the record I havent bothered to click on all those links you so kindly provided so
I offer nothing more than I have already said and that is that there is no need for a manufacturer to use confusing terminology that may under certain circumstances, be misunderstood or misinterpreted by a consumer.
-- Edited by Webmaster on Sunday 13th of March 2022 11:13:17 AM
This is a very valid point.
Back in about 2012 my son was using industry generated contracts in his business. At about that same time he was advised by his company insurer that he needed to adopt their new contract paperwork in its entirety because the existing contracts in use did not comply with projected standards which will simplify wording and even right down to the size of the font type used.
He was fortunate that apart from obtaining new forms and computer generated contracts and reports he had nothing more to do.
At the time many insurance companies were finding that they were actually losing some court cases due to the client claiming that they did not understand some of the trade based terminology the paperwork contained.
Once an insurance company loses money in a court challenge they are generally quick to react.
In 2016 or thereabouts, you dont need to quote me dorian, the ACCC introduced new policies and some of these changes enforced the need for an average person to be able to understand the contract or document. I think that their words mentioned in the description was Layman or Laymen or similar. Maybe this was the term the insurance company used in the understanding of the new requirements of the ACCC.
As a result a simple word can be cause for a claim against another based on this new procedure.
To reverse this for the exercise of this topic the term thermal runaway could easily be challenged unless clarified and the reference could be understood by the Layman. It has been shown on here that this terminology is not easy to interpret for some.
A bloke on a computer and 4 hours of searching and claiming how good a quote on Wiki is will not protect the manufacturer should someone contest it.
I will admit I had never come across the term thermal runaway until now and more to the point about the discussion on this topic unless Dorian is a engineer or at the least trade based then he may very well not have heard of it either until his google finger became involved.
Any documents using words which are confusing and favour the manufacturer over the consumer are not permitted or at the very least discouraged. The ACCC does not view and approve every contract and neither they should unless there exists a doubt by a client.
The use of this and similar confusing wording may very well come back to bite a manufacturer should the matter be presented in front of an adjudicator who agrees that there could exist a lack of understanding of the wording.
I need to add that the dates and quotes above are all based on my memory and with a conversation with my son prior to me posting, so Wiki or any other part of google was not quoted or its use even suggested.
Back to the topic,
Nah! The OP has it spot on, Not worth the effort.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Sunday 13th of March 2022 01:39:32 PM
I learnt it in high school. I think it was thermalite that was used to demonstrate the concept. It burnt really hot.
I also think that there's a lot of argument about semantics in this thread.
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 14th of March 2022 01:07:32 PM